Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the speaking and communicating podcast. I am your host, Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into by the end of this episode. Please remember to subscribe, give a rating, and a review. And as you know, on this podcast, we focus so much on communication skills and leadership. My guest today, Mary Claire Ross, she is a trust leadership speaker, facilitator, and author of the book trusted to thrive, which talks about how trust can help build better teams and better leaders. And before I go any further, please help me welcome Marie Claire to the show. Hi, Marie Claire.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
00:47
Hi, Roberta. So wonderful to be here with you today and your listeners.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
00:51
Thank you so much for being on our show today. And the first time I saw your name, I'm like, was she the editor of the magazine?
speaker
Speaker 2
·
01:01
No.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
01:04
Before we get into it, do you want to tell us quickly the story behind Bashanweek and your name?
speaker
Speaker 2
·
01:09
Because I'm from Melbourne, Australia, and growing up in Australia, my name was kind of confused people. And I knew about the magazine because back then it was available in France. So when I was like ten years old, I got the chance to actually go to France and I bought my first magazine and I kept it for years. And so I always had this really strong connection to the name, of course, right in the magazine, came out to Australia, and I thought, well, this is great. People are going to finally be able to get my name. Or 20 years ago now, I was actually working at Fashion Week in Melbourne and working behind the scenes because I ran a video production company, and this guy came running in going, oh, my gosh, I need to speak to Marie Claire. I need Marie Claire right now.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
01:49
And I was so excited, and I stepped forward, or proudly, and went, I am Marie Claire. And he just looked me up and down with disgust and went, I want the magazine, not a person.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
02:00
I'm sorry. So it can be confusing, for sure.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
02:06
Yeah.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
02:06
So tell us a little bit about yourself.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
02:09
Well, what I do is I work with leaders and teams to help them build trust, not just within their own teams, but also across teams as well. So I do a lot of work with executive leadership teams. I also work with other leaders throughout a business. I have different programs that I use in companies throughout the world.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
02:32
The word trust, we see trust as something quite fragile. Like, you can build it over time, but you can lose it in a second. What is it about trust?
speaker
Speaker 2
·
02:41
It's a very small word, but it has so many different meanings for different people. And this is the issue we all interpret trust differently based on our own perspectives, past experiences. It's very individual. And so one of the issues is that we think that how people need to build trust with us, or how we need to build trust with them is what we want, but it differs for everyone. So I just focus on trust in the workplace. And the best definition that I've come up with so far is that it's the ability for everyone in an organization to confidently predict and rely one another and to know that each person is going to make good on their promises and do the right thing.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
03:28
And therefore, in the workplace, especially when I think about it, the thing about trust being such a challenge in the workplace, I think, is because there's this competition. If I make you look bad or if I look as if I'm doing better than you are most likely to be promoted, which means I'm going to earn more money, bigger perks. So it seems to me like that's the one place where trust is really lacking or very hard to cultivate.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
03:56
Yeah, well, we don't trust people who don't care about us. Very hard to trust someone who's really individually focused, and a lot of the times they're not quite aware of it. We've gone through a school system which is all about our grades and how well we're doing and being the top of the class, and we kind of still bring that mentality into the workplace, but it doesn't work. There really is this shift, and I think Covid's actually opened it up a bit more, that people really want more empathetic leaders who care about them and there to support them in their career rather than compete or block them. It's interesting. I'm sure you've all heard of the great resignation.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
04:35
There was a study done and Sloan management review published this study at the start of the year, and they found that people are 10.4 times more likely to leave a job that's got a toxic boss than due to compensation issues. So we really need to get real on the fact that we can't do those competitive, really nasty behaviors anymore. People just don't want it. The world has changed.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
05:01
So you get hired on your technical skills, but you get promoted to now use less of them and more managing of people making that transition. How is it that organizations still sort of get it wrong to say, yes, this person is very good on the technical, but now they're going to need to be a people person, and some people are not people persons, so to speak?
speaker
Speaker 2
·
05:22
Yeah, people persons. Well, I think we should actually stop promoting people because of their technical abilities to lead teams. That shouldn't be the natural progression. There should be the opportunity for people who can go sideways rather than up the hierarchy. They can go sideways. They still have the same perks and credibility, but they're just not leading teams, because some people just don't like leading people. It's stressful, and that's fine. And some people are very good at being technical and telling a story. Like, I do a lot of research in companies. And this founder of a company in Melbourne I interviewed now, he had built his company up to 200 people, so quite a sizable organization. And he actually had an executive in his leadership team. Very skilled. This is in the pharmaceutical industry, very skilled scientist. And he led the team. Okay.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
06:14
But it wasn't his love. He didn't really enjoy it. So he asked for permission to not lead people anymore. And because his technical skills were so important, the CEO said, right, I'm going to put you in this corner office. You can have all the technical books you like. You can sit there all day. You do not have to deal with people. And the guy was in heaven, and the employees were also in heaven because they didn't have to put up with his grumpiness. So it was a win.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
06:39
Yeah. I had a boss who used to say, roberta, I went to study engineering, so I would talk to no one, and all I do is talk to people. But that's how they promoted him. So he was open to that, even though he came in as I want to be in my own quibble. But not everybody is open to stepping out of that comfort zone. Like the guy you just mentioned.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
06:59
Yeah. One of the things that I talk about in my book is that we often promote on technical skills. But there are two other skills that leaders need, and the second one are the interpersonal. So the ability to enlist others, to bring others on board and build relationships. And the next part of that are intrapersonal, and that part isn't often understood. But this is where you have a leader who has the ability to be self aware, to self reflect on their leadership behaviors, and to understand their strengths and weaknesses. And there's a book by Dr. Tash Uric called insight, and she says that only five to 10% of leaders are self aware. Wow, that's quite low. And you can't improve if you're not aware of what you're not very good at.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
07:48
And as I mentioned, I did quite a lot of research with leaders, and I found a whole lot of high performing very trusted leaders. And what I found fascinating was that they would self reflect on their leadership every week, and they weren't reflecting on what they were achieving. They were reflecting on how they were achieving it, the behaviors. And they would actually look at one of my models that I've got in my book and reflect on that each week and think, well, have I done this and have I done that, and what could I do better? That's what makes a trusted leader.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
08:24
Speaking of self awareness, I'm actually not surprised by those low numbers. And one of the reasons is I had a previous guest. So she focuses on workplace toxicity and bullying. Before she goes to the leader who is accused of bullying his subordinates, she would actually interview a lot of people in the organization. And once she starts to find a common trend, if 30 people are saying the same thing, something must be there. They can't be all making this up. She says. When I approach him and I say, an estimated 30 people that you lead, this is their common complaint about you. She says, the shock on their faces. They say, I didn't think I was doing that. The lack of awareness.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
09:12
Yeah. And this is why 360 degree interviews are so important. Because without that full, rounded, holistic feedback from people, it's so easy to not be accountable and just to keep doing what you're doing, that's annoying the crap out of people and really upsetting people as well, and really decreasing productivity.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
09:34
And so how will people trust somebody who's not even aware? Like you said, they genuinely say, I was not aware. That's the impact I was having. Obviously, there's not going to be trust.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
09:45
No. One of the interesting things in the work that I do is that I often work with leaders who are low in trust. I might coach them, and I work with the leadership team as well that they're in. And often they're quite upset that they've been rated quite low for trust, and they have no idea why. Absolutely oblivious. This company I was working with, and I gave everyone in the team a little assessment to do before they sat down to the workshop I was running, and a couple of leaders, the three of them that were low in trust, actually rated themselves ten out of ten for all these different statements to do with how well they were building trust. And the HR leader just looked, and she's, like, rolling her eyes.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
10:28
What's fascinating is that at the end of my workshop, they had to go back and re rate themselves, and they actually rated themselves lower. So it looked like I had done a terrible job. But what I was doing was starting them to get more self aware and were able to unpack that with coaching. But the really interesting thing is that as human beings, we are designed to look out at the world to see if we can trust the situation, make sure there are no saber tooth tigers ready to come out of the bushes and eat us. But we're not designed to actually look within ourselves and see what we're doing. That's creating distrust with others. We're always assuming it's other people's fault. We're not looking within ourselves.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
11:08
Being able to turn that around and getting leaders to actually work on what they're doing and how they're behaving and getting feedback. You can tell there are issues when people get defensive about feedback. We need leaders. We need employees who are not so defensive about feedback and who can take that feedback that's hopefully constructive and actually improve what they do. Because if you're getting a lot of feedback that there's something that you're doing, that's consistently the case by a whole lot of people. It's a bit of a flag. There's some work to do. Okay.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
11:40
When it's employees, I guess they are accustomed to receiving feedback and constructive criticism, especially during performance management meetings. But is it true that leaders, one, they want to give the impression that they don't make mistakes or that they have all the answers? They have to present that front in order to be respected by their subordinates. So obviously, even if they are self aware, they might not actually show those weakness points about themselves.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
12:09
Leaders that are always blaming others and not really looking within themselves are going to cause issues and they're the ones that are very hard to turn around and they shouldn't be in leadership positions. It's interesting when I do coach leaders with issues like that, I only coach them if they want coaching because if they don't, there's nothing you can do. Some people are uncoachable. There was an article I published a little while ago about sociopaths in the workplace. With sociopaths, it's a bit of a broad term. It's sort of more narcissist as well. They just will not accept any feedback or they won't improve and they actually can't. It's very hard for a psychologist to work with them and improve them.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
12:51
So kind of behaviors that you were talking about sound kind of at that end of the spectrum where there's not much you can do for someone like that. The environment matters as well, particularly for trust. It's always contextual and if you've got a lot of people doing that, then people who are not narcissists, just normal people, will also behaving like that as well, because that's how you get ahead in that sort of organization. So in that situation, there really does need to be a whole big cultural change in an organization like that. And that often needs a huge overhaul which takes between a year and a half, three years to get it to the right level.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
13:27
So now let's talk about your book, trusted to thrive. So you're saying that in order for teams to thrive, trust must be the main work culture.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
13:37
Yeah, well, trust really is. Well, it's an emotion. And so what's really interesting is if we look at brains, it's actually processed in the limbic system, which is the part of the brain that stores our habits and routines. So when we get up in the morning, we don't have to think about how to brush our teeth or anything. It's all stored in that part of the brain. But the real kicker about this part of the brain is that it has no capacity for language. So when we actually trust someone, it's based on how they make us feel, not what they say. And so leaders have to understand that if they want to trust people or if they want people to trust them, it's not about telling people to trust you.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
14:18
It's actually about matching your words and your actions, and it's also about the nonverbal part of the communication as well. So facial expressions and what you do and don't say sometimes and how you react when someone gives you bad news. I was doing an interview with an executive who was working at this organization, and he said about the CEO, I made a mistake. And the first time I did, she didn't tell me off. It was amazing. She actually said, you've made a mistake. Let's see what we can learn from that. And that created this safety that he needed. And this is what really good leaders do. What I talk about in my book is that our brains, we're constantly scanning the environment to make sure that we're safe and assisting interpersonal risk. This fear that if people will reject us is running us.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
15:11
And if we feel that we're going to get kicked out of the team, we get into fight, flight or fright mode. So we either just withdraw and don't share any ideas or problems because we're scared, or we get angry and defensive, or it's too hard, so we just quit. And so we need leaders who can create an environment that reduces that threat to our brains. Because when we're feeling like that, where we have toxic bosses, we're actually operating in a suboptimal part of our brain. And so we need leaders who can actually get us into a better part of the brain. And I talk about moving into the prefrontal cortex, which is this part of the brain here, and this is where we can innovate. It's where we can see the future. We can work out the steps to get there.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
15:56
It's where we feel the excitement and the hard work that we're doing is going to be worth it. And that's where we want to be, not just ourselves as leaders, but also our people.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
16:07
Because, like you said, if I make a mistake, and I know and my brain knows what the consequences are going to be or how my boss is going to be, like the one you talked about, who's going to say, you made a mistake, let's try to fix it. That's going to make the decision in the future, for me on what's going to happen the next time I make a mistake.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
16:26
Yeah. So you'll be too afraid to do it or what a lot of people do. And I talk about this in my book. I have a model called the achievements. I model, and if, you know, psychological safety, which is where we can take risks and be ourselves, and with psychological safety and accountability Collide, according to some research by Dr. Amy Edmondson, they actually create high performance. So if you can imagine four quadrants, and you have, down the bottom, the apathy zone, which is where you have low psychological safety and low accountability, that's a team zone, where you pretty much have a team leader that's not a people person that would prefer to be doing the technical work. And so they're pretty much under managing their team. The team are left their own devices.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
17:13
The team might show work to their leader, who tells them off. And so that team ends up just being in survival. It's self preservation. They're doing the bare minimum. They're not really working together because they can't even trust their own team members. We fall into this apathy zone when we are ready to quit a job. So the next zone is on the right. Now, this one is actually high in psychological safety, but low in accountability. I call this the abatement zone. Now, abatement, that means declining in performance. And so what happens is these teams have hugely achieved success in the past, and they're still riding on that success, but they don't realize that because they're not improving, they're not fixing anything. They just think they're really good.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
17:58
Their performance is actually declining, and it's usually because the leader, they might be burnt out, they might not be held accountable by their own boss, and so they're just doing the bare minimum, but they think they're really good. And so you have this safe environment, but it's a pseudosafety. You're safe to not try. This is a zone where good ideas go to die. If you get a high performer coming into this team, it's horrible because if they try and fix things or improve things, the rest of the team shut them down. And it's really frustrating. And this is where people just work. Nine to five, they escalate issues to their boss. So in the end, over time, that team leader gets really busy because everyone's delegating work back to them and things aren't getting done.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
18:47
And then we have another team zone, which I call the anxiety zone, which is high in accountability but low in safety. Very common in high pressure industries such as it and legal. And it's all about getting work done. Deliver, deliver. This team is phenomenal at getting things done, but the issue is that it's all about getting the work done. It's not about people. So it's, again, technical leaders that just don't really care about their people. And so it's very individually focused, very competitive, and stress and burnout are big issues here. I've also come across teams in this zone that achieve a lot, making a lot of money, and bad behaviors are being ignored because all that money is coming in. And some of these teens end up having really huge expensive costs in terms of safety. Physical safety issues become an issue.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
19:39
Emotional safety, a lot of burnout, anxiety, even sexual misconduct occurs in these zones, and bullying as well. But it's all hidden because they look like they're achieving, but it's at the expense of people's mental and physical health.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
19:54
Especially before the pandemic, that was happening a lot. Yes. That's what started to come out more. And people talk about it more during the pandemic, I think.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
20:03
Exactly. A lot of teams fell into that zone when the pandemic started. And of course, some teams fall into that because they're very diligent about getting work done. They've got so much to do, so many deadlines that they're all in this state of anxiety. And these team zones, I have to say, they're not fixed. It's not like a team stays there forever. We do jump in and out sometimes we're stuck in a team zone because of circumstances outside of our control. And sometimes as individuals, we're in team zones. So you might have a team with a couple in the apathy, a couple in the abatement, and the leader has to bring them all into what I call the achievement zone. And so this is where you have high safety, high accountability, and it's where people get together.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
20:50
They're excited about working, they're strong in their purpose and what they're doing, and they're really looking at the future, and they're empowered to think for themselves. They have that autonomy. And the leader is creating this amazing environment where people are stretched and challenged, and they know they have the support of one another and the support from their leader. And this is the team environment that we all crave. In my research, people, when they've been in these zones, they still think about them. They still think back to that time when they did that really hard thing with that group of people and they got it together and they made it work even though they didn't think they were going to make it. And those experiences are life changing and really memorable.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
21:32
Do you think since the pandemic, a lot of people, well, we don't know the numbers, but a lot of people have moved from, I'm in high performing, high salary, but low psychological safety zone. Unless I sign up for a job where the zone where we all want to be, I'm not going to that. I'm not just taking up any job anymore unless it is that I'm willing to wait.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
21:58
Definitely. And this has been a huge shift in our society that people have realized, well, my well being and my happiness is too important to take a job just for the money. And people really want to be in a team with people that value them as human beings. We want to be seen, we want to be valued, and we want to be heard. When you don't have that in your team or through your boss, it's debilitating, it's not fun. It's really hard to get up in the morning and go to work when you're with a team that is not enjoyable to be with. Now, I was having a conversation with an executive the other day, and he worked at a smallish company and he was on the leadership team working with the CEO of founder.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
22:46
This CEO met him a couple of times and I realized, oh, I can't work with him. He was just very self involved, very determined, wouldn't listen. It's interesting when you have a meeting with a client and they just tell you stuff and you can't even ask a question. You just think, no, you got to coach them. Not good. But anyway, this guy had left that company, and he was now working for a bigger company, a less kind of prestigious role in terms of a hierarchy, but bigger team and more revenue. And I said, what is it? And he goes, you know what? I went to this meeting, and I walked out joyful, and I hadn't felt that joy in such a long time. It was like this weight was just lifted off my shoulders. That's what people are experiencing now.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
23:29
We're realizing that when you go to a job with really good people and a really good culture, and it's really good quality leaders that build trust in their teams and support everyone, it's just so life affirming. And I really believe that business is a force for good. And leaders have this amazing gift, this absolute amazing power to be able to really nurture people and help them to feel the meaning in the work that they're doing, help them to feel like they're contributing and that they matter. And when people feel that, they go home, they don't get angry at traffic and have road rage. They don't get home and kick their dog and hit their kids. Flow and effect to society is huge.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
24:14
My belief is that if we get that right, if we have leaders that are like that, we would not only change the world, but create world peace, because you won't have people that are uptight and upset all the time.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
24:24
That is true, because look at how many hours you spend working. What other pieces of wisdom can you.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
24:30
Share from your book, going back to the quiet quitting. It makes me very sad that people are going to work and not really into what they're doing, and they're just going through the motions. I think that's a sad reflection on society, that people think they need to do that, particularly when we've just talked about how people are now moving to places where they know they're going to be with.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
24:51
Right.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
24:52
And so what I believe is really important is that leaders really need to know how to help people see and feel, because feeling is really important, because that's the trust element, the emotions that are processed in the subconscious, part of the brain, how their work matters. And so one of the things that I talk about in my book is in terms of connection, which is one of the major pillars to building trust. And when I talk about connection, there's two prongs to it. So the first one is what we all kind of understand that sense of belonging. But the second part is a leader's role is to really connect the pieces and parts of a business for people.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
25:30
It's almost like knowing the jigsaw and helping connect the dots or the pieces for people, because a lot of people just work in a little segment and they don't understand the full context. So we need leaders to help them understand the different parts, the priorities, the projects, the products, all these different things, and how they work together and how they matter in that. And this is really through connecting people to the meaning of their work and in terms of how it helps others. So connecting it to beneficiaries. And there are four that I talk about. The first one is connecting it to how that person is going to matter themselves, what's in it for them, how their life, how their career is going to be improved by doing the work, how it connects to you, the leader.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
26:18
Now, sometimes you might give your direct report, something that's a bit boring, but you can help them understand why it's important to you. It could be that by making some little changes on a presentation, little things like that it frees you up to be able to go home on time and see your kids, those sorts of things. Really important, explaining how it benefits internal customers so other people within the organization, there's a huge lot of research that really shows that this is so important to not only reducing silos, but helping people feel better about their work. And then the fourth one is explaining how it benefits external customers. Really important, helping people understand that what they're doing is making other people's lives better. And there was some research. Now, Adam Grant, who you might have.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
27:12
Heard of, I think I follow his.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
27:14
Twitter account, but yes, he did some research with some volunteers who were actually making phone calls to ring, know people who'd been to college and ask for a donation. And those donations would go into scholarships for people that didn't have much money. They would ring and not much would happen when they actually had person who benefited from that donation come in and say how doing that degree had helped their career and their life and their family. And they really felt that they were so much more inspired to get on those calls and explain that to people and the amount of donations that they got doubled or something quite big. But it's connecting people to the customer so important.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
27:59
There's a relatability factor, and when you hear people's stories, that's what connects us.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
28:05
Yes, definitely.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
28:07
And then one last thing before you go. If I want to build trust in my team, in my organization. And if I had what we call trust issues, I mean, there's a whole range of things we're not going to get into that. How do I first build it within myself? Because I think if you have it within yourself, it's a little easier to be open to trusting others. No?
speaker
Speaker 2
·
28:30
Yeah, most definitely. And one of the things I do unpack, and when it comes to trust, we have to trust ourselves. And this means trusting our ability to lead, to have the answers, even when we don't know what's going to happen. And to have faith. Sometimes this means trusting in a higher power. And this doesn't have to be a religious thing, but it's that belief that everything is going to be okay and that we have the ability to figure things out even if we don't know how things are going to be right. And it also means trusting that little voice inside of our heads. We often hear a little voice that tells us, don't do that or you should have spoken to. You need to build trust with this person or build these relationships.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
29:14
When we shut that part of us down, it really does create some issues. We really need to be listening to the inner voice within. We need to really be clear on our purpose and what we're trying to achieve. But when we trust in that we're going to do the right thing, we're going to make the right decisions that really benefit all, then it really can impact the work that we're doing and the trust that we build with others.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
29:41
Yeah, I think if you trust yourself as well, even the people you lead, it's a little easier for them to trust you. You know that everything's going to be okay. It's going to work out. The answer is going to be there at the end. They will follow and work with you along that.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
29:56
Yeah. Let's give you a little story. This CEO that I know, he was brought in to start a company, and he built it up from zero people to 1000 in three years. And one of the things that they were getting tenders for certain government contracts. And he just remembers he had a team of about 30, and he just said to them one day, look, this is our goal, this is our vision. This is what I want to achieve. I have no idea how to do it. I'm going to be totally honest. The Ods are so against us. We've got all these challenges, but I believe in all of you. You're also smart, you've got the knowledge. And together I really believe that we can come together and we can do this.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
30:42
And those people still remember that speech, it might be ten years ago now, and thought of him so highly, and he constantly showed that belief in his people, and he trusted himself and he believed in himself. That was why he was able to do that. And that creates this amazing power and strength that really unites a group of people together and gets them into the achievement zone.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
31:07
Yes. That's amazing, because sometimes I think leaders think being respected means you must appear as if you have all the answers.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
31:15
In your leaders who actually lead by asking questions rather than telling people what to do and always believing they have answer. That sort of behavior is really old school. Leaders who ask a lot of questions is actually the way to go.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
31:29
That's right. Any last words of wisdom from Marie Claire before we wrap up?
speaker
Speaker 2
·
31:34
I think I've said quite a lot, actually.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
31:39
More if you can.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
31:40
But for the team leaders out there or anyone who is even considering being in a leadership role, really look at how you can create a really warm, thriving environment. We're living in a world today where people want to know that their leader cares about them. So how can you support people? How can you empower them to bring their best selves to work? And this really means being interested in people, not just in their work goals, but also their personal goals. And the more you can build that connection and really care about your people, rather than just seeing them as a tool of productivity, the better your results will be and the better their results will be as well.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
32:21
Words of wisdom from Marie Claire Ross, who is joining us today from Australia. And she's a trust leadership speaker, facilitator, and author of the best selling book trusted to thrive, which helps leaders to build trust in their organizations. Marie, thank you very much for being on our show today.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
32:41
That's great, Roberta. Really good questions. And went on a really nice little journey, so thank you.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
32:47
I really enjoyed the journey as well. But before you go, please tell us where to reach you on the social so that we can continue this conversation.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
32:54
Yeah. So you can find me on LinkedIn at Marie Clairos. And also my website is marieclairos.com. And there is a hyphen between the Marie and the Claire.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
33:04
Ok, not the magazine. Marie Claire, thank you so much for being on our show today. Don't forget to subscribe, give a rating and a review.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
33:15

Oh, and also if you're interested in my book, trusted to thrive, it's available on Amazon and Walmart, all sorts of books all across the world.
speaker
Speaker 1
·
33:22
Yes, trusted to thrive by Marie Claire Ross.
speaker
Speaker 2
·
33:26
Thanks, Roberta.