Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking for a space to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast for you. Today I am joined by Catherine Mattice, who is the CEO and Founder of Civility Partners. Now get this, she coaches leaders on how to deal with workplace bullying and toxic work environments.
00:29
Now, before I go any further, please help me welcome Catherine. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Katherine, I've heard of so many coaches, I'll be honest. All different types and just when I thought I've heard them all, you come with workplace bullying and toxic environment coaching. What is that about? Yeah, well, I'll tell you how I started doing it. I was the director of HR for a company that
00:50
had one toxic leader in it. We were peers, me and this toxic leader. While I was working there, I ended up doing grad school and did all of my graduate research on workplace bullying. I have a ton of knowledge in that area and continue to read and research, walk that academic line as well as consulting and coaching around it. So Ciility Partners was born as a result of those experiences and wanting to solve the problem of workplace bullying. And over time, we've moved into more
01:19
wanting to build a positive work environment. But I do specialize in executive coaching for toxic leaders who engage in bullying behaviors and who are making people feel unsafe and unhealthy at work. And we also do lots of trainings around various topics related to positive work environments. And thirdly, we do a lot of workforce surveys, and then we work with leaders to turn the culture around. Right. So you say you've been reading up on the topic and researching it for years.
01:49
Are you saying that they actually do admit that this is a toxic work environment? Unfortunately, a lot of our clients come out of desperation. So if we're doing a workforce survey or culture change work, often that is borne out of some sort of me too moment where there was some public issue that happened or before the great resignation or great reshuffle, obviously people leaving was a sign that something was wrong.
02:18
culture. So often there's something that's happening that causes the leaders to say, well, what's happening? We need to figure it out. So they have to be willing to admit that something's wrong and they need help. I'm an employee, I've got supervisors and directors above me and I experienced what I feel being bullied. What's the first thing that they do? The first thing is actually coming out of a state of confusion. So often bullying is insidious and it happens over time.
02:47
And it's like this wake up realization of, oh my gosh, I think I'm being abused at work. Just like a domestic violence, it often escalates over time where the person's getting more and more controlling and then it explodes into physical violence. And so there's that same kind of an element. That's the first thing is recognizing, this isn't right. I don't understand what's happening and I think I need some help here. As adults, we don't expect to go to work and...
03:15
be bullied. That's stuff that's supposed to happen when you're a kid. We are sleeping in the middle of school thing. Yeah. So I think the second thing someone who's being bullied does is scan the environment and try to figure out.
03:28
what might the reaction be with HR or their manager or supervisor if they were to tell someone about it. So organizations, this is where the culture work comes in, organizations have to be clear that they would support people who report things like bullying or harassment. And so if I'm thinking the guy in marketing is kind of a bully and he still works here and no one's ever addressed him.
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then I'm probably not going to report it because I can see that that type of behavior is not addressed anyways. So that's the unfortunate thing. Because employers need to be more open and transparent that they know what bullying is and they're interested in stopping it if they hear of it. I can certainly attest to it because a lot of people are afraid to lose their jobs.
04:14
So if you scan the room and realize that guy gets away with it every time, he must be important in the company. If anything, if I report this, I could be the one to get fired and I'm being bullied. So do you find that quite a number of employees that stay up here? Unfortunately, yeah, it's pretty common for the person to be let go and the person who's doing the bullying to stay. That's a, unfortunately, a pretty common thing.
04:40
What are some of the factors that it depends on? Is it a hierarchy thing? I think it's a couple of things. So one is from an HR perspective, if someone comes to me and I'm in a big organization and I need to be able to prove to my leadership that this is a real problem and it's costing money and causing damage to the organization, the person who's complaining to me about the bullying needs to help me make that case to my leaders. You know, HR.
05:10
doesn't have free will just to fire people or have performance conversations. And so if you do feel bullied, my advice would be that when you talk to HR, you really come at it as if you're making a business case or sharing a presentation about an idea you have. Obviously it's a very emotional thing to go through.
05:31
saying I'm hurt, kind of leaning on your emotions as the case, I'm hurt, so we need to change. Unfortunately, it's not that HR is heartless, it's just that HR needs more to go on around. Just like when you go to court, you need to present evidence.
05:46
Yeah, exactly. So I would recommend keeping a journal and I wouldn't do it on your work computer. But again, it has to be facts based as emotional as it is. And I'm not discounting that, but to keep track of the who, what, when, where, and what happened and who was there, who saw, and what time was it, what meeting was it at and what happened. Then you could go to HR and say, look, I've been kind of monitoring this for a few months. Here's what I've been seeing. Here are the ways that I've already tried to resolve it because I'm a problem solver and I'm
06:15
good employee, but I'm just not able to solve it. And that's why I'm here in your office. I'm seeking sort of next level support. That's a better version. Let's say it's a deadline and there's something you needed to give me for the final report and you are delaying me. I just call you on the phone, your extension and say, where's that letter now? And I slam it on your ear or how can you do this? You're so useless. You know, some people that's just their mannerisms. I'm not saying it's good.
06:40
How do people know this is just this person being under pressure or this is this person bullying me? Is that bullying or is it just me being who I am? The way you position the question is interesting. So it is not bullying if it happens one time. We're all under stress. I missed something and you've got something to do to a client or what have you and you freak out on me. No, that's not bullying. If you do it all the time, whether it's over something big or because I was a minute late to a meeting.
07:09
Then it's a different story. So it is about the pattern.
07:12
So the way that you can look at bullying behaviors is that they occur in three categories. And I always see those three categories together. So the first is aggressive communication, like what you just described, yelling and then slamming the phone down, nasty emails, aggressive body language. So aggressive communication is the first. The second category of behavior is humiliation. So if you were to scream at me and call out my mistakes in front of others, then that would be an example of humiliation.
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or bringing it up in meetings and things in front of others. And then thirdly is manipulation. So if you, using your example, if you gave me an assignment right now, it's 4.23 PM, and you told me it's due by five, it's actually the type of project that takes six or eight hours to do, then that would be manipulating me.
08:02
Again, it's a pattern. So if you did that one time, oh my gosh, Catherine, this is due. We got to get it done. Can you work late? That's different than consistently setting. We're waiting for the last minute to just make it miserable. So aggressive communication, humiliation, manipulation.
08:21
usually you don't fall into those categories if you are actually being bullied versus I'm just dealing with a terrible person. Yeah, that's why I said that was interesting. When I coach these people, sometimes I hear, well, that's just how they are. One woman I coached everyone with, she's just passionate. I don't think that excuses the behavior. If it's causing a lot of hurt, it needs to be addressed. When I use the word bullying, I'm referring to behavior that fits in those three categories, but even someone who's maybe constantly kind of aggressively sarcastic,
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or walks the line of microaggressions, those sorts of other lower level behaviors that we don't often address. We can't say, well, that's just how their sense of humor is. You know, if they're actually causing harm, may not be bullying and it's certainly not illegal, but aggressive sarcasm or inappropriate sarcasm can be hurtful. You can't just say, well, that's just their sense of humor. So in those instances, do those in leadership...
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positions address that or they just think I'm too busy. They'll just have to deal with Katherine. That's just how she is. Or do they think this is a problem we need to address? I must bring it into my office and say, Hey, wait a minute. This may be a person editor, but this is a work environment. So one thing I noticed when I go into organizations is middle management has rarely been trained that if you hear gossip or inappropriate behavior, that lower level stuff, civility.
09:42
Rarely do I go into organizations where managers have been trained on how to solve that type of behavior and how to coach people who engage in that behavior. And also have not been told that that's the expectation. So.
09:55
You get people running around acting out with nobody taking accountability for addressing it. I do really think that if managers had that training, it would save us all a world of hurt. When it comes to the higher level people who I'm coaching, you know, these individuals are often executives. They've been with the organization for a long time. They're higher level. And in those instances, the leaders may be very well aware of how much damage they're causing.
10:20
with that bullying behavior, but they're not interested in solving it because they see this person as really valuable. Valuable or they play golf with the father. Right, yeah, they either bring in a bunch of money or they have a lot of organizational knowledge, they know people, absolutely. So the bottom line becomes more important than the human aspect. Yes. So your clients, you're saying they're upper level management.
10:45
When you first bring this to them, are they even willing to admit that there's this type of problem? By the time I get to them, I've already had some conversations with the leadership who are gonna be accountable to holding my coaching client accountable about how to talk about it. So I'm not showing up like, hi, I'm your new executive coach. When I show up.
11:07
they've been told you have to change. And if you don't change, we need to put a consequence in place. And we have a coach to help ensure that we don't have to put that consequence in place. So it is a bit of disciplinary, I'm sure it feels like with the coaching client. And they are often kind of like, you know, I know I can be hard. I remember I made Susan cry, but she's sensitive. You know, so they kind of discount it all. I go around and interview people.
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then I present that data to them. Rather than HR kind of saying, well, people say that you yell, which is kind of hearsay, it's hard to buy that if you believe in your leadership style. But if I come in and say, look, I interviewed 15 people, I put all of the interview notes into themes, and hey, one theme is that you yell, and here's 20 bullet points of people literally saying that it's not just HR telling you to pipe down, it's people actually think you yell. So.
12:01
When I give that feedback, that's usually a big turning point where they are often quite mortified that that's how they're perceived. They didn't know it was so bad. So it's an awareness exercise. Yeah. As you said earlier, it's about a pattern. There's no smoke without fire. Right. Right.
12:18
Are they open to listening to your coaching or is it a little hostile at the beginning? Yeah, it depends. Some of them are very open. Often it's like, oh my gosh, help me. If this is how people see me, I need your help. They're very open. Others, it takes me a few sessions to talk them into that.
12:35
feedback being real. So they're still trying to separate themselves. You know, they'll say things like, oh, I think some of the people you talk to probably, I haven't talked to them in a while. So they're kind of invalidating it or I don't do that. That's not true. Or they'll pick out one or two bullet points. You know, that's not true. That never happened. The trick there is to say, well, okay, maybe those few things didn't happen. Or maybe you don't think you yell.
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but you got 15 or 20 people who say you do. And so as an outsider, I got to buy the 15 to 20 people. Their realities seems to align and yours doesn't align. Or sometimes I'll just say, look, I don't know what the facts are, but the fact is I have 15 or 20 page document that says this is how you're perceived. So you have to decide if you care about that or not. It doesn't really matter what happened.
13:25
I don't operate in facts. I don't do investigations. I just want to know how you're perceived. This is how you're perceived. So you decide, yeah, if you don't want to be perceived this way, I'm here to help. But if you don't care, then we can call off the coaching. I'm not interested in forcing you to be here. I don't want to be here either. If that's the case. Does it afterwards create an awkward situation at work? Once they know that everybody around them has been telling this coach that, Hey, this person yells at us and is toxic and bullies us.
13:55
I would imagine that the person I'm coaching is pretty uncomfortable once they get that feedback from me because now they know how they're really seen. They just get quiet. They're probably embarrassed and they kind of keep their head down. But when we talk about that, you know, I'll tell them, look,
14:12
They've been talking about this for a long time. It's not that I asked a question and it finally all came out. You know, I was hired because they were already talking about it. So let's change the conversation. People are gossiping about you. Why not have them gossip about how you've improved and you're a better leader and they aren't afraid of you anymore. So that's kind of the angle I take there.
14:35
Do you think it's a power play thing sometimes? And I asked because I remember I have a friend who told me she's also in HR. She said, this guy, I think he's been with the company for about 20 years. He calls people idiots and jerks. And every time they report to them in HR, I said, but why aren't you doing anything about it? And she said, he's the only one who knows how to operate that part of the warehouse.
14:59
said that is entirely your company's fault. If something happened to him tomorrow, court forbid. How can you have someone who's the only one who knows how to operate a certain system? He knows the leverage he has on this company. He gets to call people whatever names. Well, and that's the thing. He's also not irreplaceable. Somebody else can learn it. And if something did happen to him tomorrow.
15:21
The company would figure it out. And so he's exactly the kind of person that I coach. He's seen as super valuable because he knows something that nobody else knows, but I don't take coaching clients unless the company has put a consequence in place. And sometimes that's the difficult part. You know, I can already foresee a sales call with the CEO of that company. I don't want to put a consequence in place because I'm not willing to pull the trigger if I need to use it.
15:46
I won't take that coaching client on. Isn't the company leadership's fault to make a particular employee that indispensable? So you know that they can be replaced, but some people are made to feel that way. Yeah, yes, it's the company's fault and they should have addressed it a long time ago. The first time he's called someone an idiot, they should have said, we don't tolerate that here. Don't do that again.
16:07
but here we are 20 years later, he's probably been acting that way for the last 17 of them. That's also why the consequence is important because if the owner goes to this person and says, you know, you can't act that way anymore, I got you a coach.
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they're gonna think, why not? Sure, I'll go through coaching. I'll just go back to the way it was because you obviously don't care. So part of that consequence is the messaging just to make it clear that you do have to change. This is not a futile exercise where we're spending a bunch of money in your time. In fact, I'm in the process of probably letting a coaching client go because the CEO's just not giving that consequence. And I was under the impression it had been given and it has not.
16:48
I can't work miracles. Why would he change? So the executive leadership has to have a backbone for you to be able to continue to work with that company. Yes, right. Otherwise you're just the bad cop. Yep, and it doesn't go well. It makes me look bad. It's just a mess. I don't take clients unless there's a consequence in place. Have you found in your research and in your coaching experience that there's a certain gender that's more likely to bully or it makes no difference?
17:16
I've seen research that it's 60-40 men 60% of the time, females 40% of the time. I would say that's about accurate based on my coaching, my pool of clients over the last years. One thing that's interesting is that I hate stereotype women, but this is what I've experienced. They cry in my coaching meetings a lot. So that's fascinating to me just because people are so afraid of them, but here they are talking to me and they're...
17:43
really upset and sad. Emotional creatures, Catherine. Yeah, we are. You know, the other thing I'll say too is often it's the organization that in addition to allowing this person to act this way, there's things happening in the organization that sort of facilitate that bad behavior. So using your example of this guy who can operate the one thing in the manufacturing, perhaps he's frustrated because the system is slow or he's made suggestions for improvement and they're not.
18:13
heard or probably things frustrating for him that he's not getting resolved. It's not that these people are horrible people. I do often find that there's organizational problems that cause frustration and stress. That's partly where it's coming from. That makes perfect sense because have you realized even at home when you're frustrated, who do you check it out on? The people near you.
18:36
Yep. The sensitive issue of race. What has been your experience? Is there bullying that is race related in some of your coaching clients? Yeah, it's sometimes it comes up. So I'm coaching someone right now who's works in a
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very global $12 billion company. This woman who also happened to be from India, she felt she was one of the only people of color there at this organization. And she was very open about her feelings around race and would call people out if she felt that some conversation was had or a decision was made. Some of it had to do with their race. And so there was one example where she had asked to have an assistant.
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was told no. And her response to the CEO was, if I was white, you would have said yes. Is there someone in the organization on the same position who has an assistant? Well, she already had one. She had a team. So yes, that was a very large nonprofit. It was very white, according to her. And she would talk to me about how they had recently hired, as many organizations did with me, to diversity, equity and inclusion.
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he would talk to her about how much work he had to do in this very white organization. And he also felt not heard. And I'm not discounting. It's certainly very possible. It does exist, yes. I find that if every single time you start your sentence with the exact same people become torn deaf. And even on situations that marriage that accusation.
20:01
So is that a way to actually establish that yes, had she been a different race, she would have gotten the assistant she wanted because in that position, you need to have an assistant. Yeah, and that was what we talked about in coaching is that, and she had a pretty good relationship with the CEO and maybe that's why she felt comfortable to say it that way, but absolutely, it's certainly possible that bias got in the way and you should talk to your CEO about it, but the way that you went about it in front of other directors, that maybe wasn't the right way.
20:31
So I'm white, I'm not here to coach people of color on how to talk about race for sure. But if you use it in an aggressive way, if you're growing it out there aggressively every time something doesn't go your way, then yeah, people become tone deaf and defensive. We talked in coaching about, could you have had that conversation with the CEO in a different way? Could you have had a private meeting with him to say, here's my perspective?
20:56
I see other people at my level with assistance kind of make a case. It's emotional, but you gotta make the case. Evidence in court, yes. The logic will follow. Even the person listening will say, hey, wait a minute. Every time somebody has been in this position before, they've had an assistant. Why didn't you give it to her? Right. Even the person who's being accused of playing the race card, they can actually realize there's a discrepancy. Study the patterns.
21:23
Right. I mean, we talked to about if we've got this new chief of DEI, maybe bring him into the conversation with you. And so it became a bully. I mean, it was like one of her bullying tactics was to use race. That's where I've seen it. But it doesn't come up a lot. It coached a guy in France. If the person who's engaging in bullying is being an overt racist, you know, that's discrimination and harassment. And so that's an illegal problem. And it's more easily solved. You mentioned the word harassment. Yeah. Is bullying
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part of, does it fall under the sexual harassment umbrella or is that a separate topic altogether? Here's my own answer. The law probably would not agree with me. I see workplace bullying as an overarching phrase that describes any sort of toxic bullying, abusive behavior, be it harassment, discrimination.
22:16
equal opportunity behavior. The difference according to the law is who you aim that at. So if I only bully people of color or gay or certain nationalities or whatever, then that becomes illegal harassment. So I kind of joke the loophole, if you're gonna be an ass at work is to just be an ass to everyone.
22:38
As a world, we're trying to figure out how do we draw the lines between some of the things you were talking about earlier? Someone has a bad day and they let out some aggression and stress versus this ongoing pattern. Where's the line? How do we manage the differences? I mean, a lot of it's perspective and perception, but that's my answer. Bullying and harassment and sexual harassment, the same behaviors, it's abuse. It's designed to have power over others. But according to the law.
23:06
who you aim it at is when it becomes illegal or not. This has been such a huge eye-opener. I didn't even know there was a toxic workplace environment coach. Well, thank you. I'm enjoying chatting with you. Yeah, this has been wonderful.
23:20
Just before you go, you said with the great resignation, do you find that that's one of the main reasons there's been this great resignation other than COVID and everything moving online? Yeah, I've seen plenty of research from global consulting firms such as Pew or Boston Consulting Group that what they're finding in their research around the world is that people leave because of a toxic environment or pay.
23:43
I do think with this move towards more virtual work and remote work, people aren't gonna feel so inclined to stay at an abusive company because it's a little easier to job hunt these days with not having to stay in your same city while you're job hunting. So- Right. And do you think being virtual makes the bullying any less or it makes no difference? I think it's possible it's more because if I used to yell in the hallway and other people heard me, now I can yell at you in a Zoom call.
24:13
Other people can't. The computer has got a catalyst. I'm going to make me an optimist. I am too. I have hope, but I do think employees over time, they're just going to keep taking back the workplace more and more. Before you go, please tell us where to find you. Yeah. Anywhere and everywhere. My website is civilitypartners.com. You can look me up on LinkedIn and Facebook, Twitter. All the interwebs. Yes, exactly.
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Catherine Mattice, Civilty Partners. If you have a toxic work environment or experienced workplace bullying, please contact her. And last words before we go Catherine. It's an employer's responsibility to create an environment where people can thrive and where they feel good. That's my mission in life is to see to it that employers fulfill that ethical responsibility. Thank you very much.