Speaking and Communicating Podcast

If someone works hard and they love what they do and they look forward to it every day, they're unlikely to get burnt out unless they're like working at an extreme pace. But if somebody really despises what they do and stresses about it every day and only maybe works like four hours a day or something like that, that can cause burnout. So really it's more of the anticipation of stress than it is the actual workload.
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Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I'm your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and the Muscle Reading and the Review. Now let's get communicating with our guest today, joining us from Arizona.
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Bryan Gastelle is a clinical psychologist. He's the founder of Empower Psychotherapy, has done background testing in ADHD and helps couples with communication, anxiety, and how to deal with a partner who might have mental health challenges. And before I go any further, please welcome him to the show. Hi, Brian. Hi, thanks for having me here.
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My pleasure, welcome. When you decided that this was gonna be your career, your life's mission, what was the end goal? What is it that you thought people really needed help with this? I think that when I made the decision to do this, I really wanted to just help people, help themselves. And it's always been really rewarding to me to see people uh come into their own and actualize themselves.
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I love that feeling and that's really a big part of what got me into it. Have you found that even when we go to therapy, we sometimes retreat back to our old ways? Absolutely. And why is that? I think it's very difficult to move beyond our old ways and that's a lot of the work I do as a therapist is uh the reason that people end up being stuck is because the old ways are familiar, they're easy.
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We've done them before and the new ways are usually scary. They're challenging. We don't know how to do them. So part of my mission is to help people help themselves in that way where we're gonna make that leap to the new way of being, the new way of thinking. You did background in ADHD testing. What does that mean exactly? So I actually did a rotation at the ADHD Research Center at Penn.
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I did the bulk of my training around ADHD testing there, which it was diagnostic testing, still do it. Basically, if someone wants like a write-up of the strengths and weaknesses they have, diagnostically speaking, whether they have ADHD or perhaps some other disorder or maybe there's no diagnosis, but it's a diagnostic testing that I'm trained in. Do you find that as Asko's Amigen Xer, do you find that
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because when we were growing up, this wasn't done to the extent that it has been, the science behind it. Do you find that sometimes there are some things we get wrong about mental health or specifically adult ADHD? I think there's many myths about ADHD. ah I think probably the most common one is the stereotype around ADHD.
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So when we think of ADHD, the stereotype I at least personally have run into is uh in grade school, there was the class clown, the loud kid. And so like sometimes, yeah, that is what ADHD looks like even in adults. But a lot of the times adults have learned to mask it somehow or to cope. And so it actually looks very different. The symptoms can be very different across the board, especially in adults because there is that coping layer.
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Okay, so in a kid, we know that, okay, the most talkative one in class who always has to be reminded to be quiet, that probably is the one. But with adults, would you say as well, because sometimes you do find adults like that at work, every time we're in the boardroom meeting, somebody just wants to hear the sound of their voice. Would you say that that's just their personality or there is some level of ADHD in them?
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It's not a guarantee if somebody likes to hear the sound of their voice. There's a lot of other reasons that could be ADHD. The reason that somebody would be doing it is more on the impulse control side. So if they have trouble filtering what they say in a meeting, so they, they butt in maybe times where maybe they shouldn't that kind of feel, but there are definitely other reasons. So I wouldn't immediately conclude that, but it is possible. Right.
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Now let's talk about couples therapy. What is it that they usually come to you for and say they struggle with as a couple? Communication. uh Welcome to the show. Yes, yes. Very easy segue, right? Communication absolutely is the number one problem that people struggle with uh in various ways. And what that communication looks like, we've got
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like an anxious avoidant dynamic where, you know, one partner is really concerned with making sure that the relationship is okay and the other is overwhelmed by that. Or maybe someone, they don't know how to communicate their needs in a way that's not going to trigger defensiveness, things like that. And usually somewhere, somehow the communication has broken down. And so a lot of times that's the work I end up doing.
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I've always wondered when people get married, is that something they actually deeply look into? How they communicate, how there is a conflict when they have a fight while dating, who is mature enough to express their emotions versus the one who has a temper.
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Is this something that they actually sit down and analyze or they think, oh, I'm in love, everything is fine, I felt butterflies? Do they then discover this later after marriage that, hey, we need to work on our communication? Yeah, I would say that marriage does not necessarily predict any conversation about communication or that it is even uh effective with couples. I think people get
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get married for other reasons. Communication often is the reason that people will come in to see me. Yeah, I think it is important. And that would be ideal if people considered like, okay, can I say something and have the other person not get defensive or how does our communication look? And then if there are concerns, you can always go into therapy, I'd say proactively and...
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you know, with the communication early, which is often a lot easier. Yes, that's why a lot of churches do this premarital counseling, couples therapy before getting married. So you learn to have those tools to deal with how you communicate with each other, understanding the other person's communication styles, like you said, so that they don't feel like you're being defensive if they raise an issue or say, you know, when you do this, it hurts my feelings and things like that.
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Because I think a lot of the time while you're still dating everything feels so good. Yeah. Those things come later when reality strikes. Absolutely. That's generally what I see too is people often get married because of the connection and not necessarily so much the communication and whether they're confident in it or not. Now back to being ADHD.
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How does any partner while they're dating, how do they know that my romantic partner is an adult ADHD? How will anybody know that actually? It's tough and it might take a professional to confirm that, but some things you can look for are daydreaming, inattention, forgetfulness is a big one, impulsivity. So sometimes, and this is
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in some cases, not all cases with ADHD, but talking out of turn interruptions, making impulsive choices. And so those types of things, if you suspect it, then the next step is to go in, see a professional, get that diagnostic testing and take it from there. It's interesting here that you say that. And here's why. I don't know who came up with the word narcissist for it to be used by the us, general public instead of Brian, the professional because
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As soon as some, like you said, if they interrupt or if they act on impulses, oh, he's a narcissist, oh, he's a narcissist. And obviously when we use that term incorrectly, there's no way we can think, oh, maybe let's go for testing and see if my partner is potentially ADHD. Cause we label everything narcissist right now if it doesn't agree with us. Yes. I see that all too often. It's definitely an overused label.
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you know, it's made its way into social media and the public dialect and constantly I will hear that. yeah. do you have couples who come and say, oh, it turns out I married a narcissist, please fix him, Yep. Absolutely. Fairly routine. Right. And also when it comes to couples therapy, when they come to you, do they come to you when things have gotten bad to the point of where
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they potentially could get divorced and they wanna avoid that, or do they come early when they start to realize that there could be some challenges they just want to smooth out? I would say the majority come later in the progression of these problems. And I would encourage folks listening to, if you suspect any communication issues, go in early.
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It can be worked on if it's later stage and it's progressed, but it's a lot harder and a lot longer. But if it's early and you come in, these things can be nipped in the bud, if you will. You know, you can prevent big problems down the road. was, I don't know if that's human nature or something when things are not as bad, we just keep thinking, oh, you just keep going. And then when they're really almost over the edge, suddenly let's get some help. Yes.
11:10
Yeah, I think there might be something to that. Right. Now let's talk about anxiety. What exactly is it and how does it manifest especially to adults? So anxiety is a heightened arousal state, meaning our heart rate goes up, our body gets ready to act in certain ways depending on how intense the anxiety is. So it's like this heat up state that we get into.
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It's a little different than fear in that anxiety is a reaction to something that we can't necessarily see in that moment. So being chased by a bear, that would be fear versus like, I hope I get a good grade. That would be anxiety because one is very obvious and present and another is more abstract and removed from the present.
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So that's what anxiety is. And it shows up in adults often actually, because we have a lot of things that contribute to stress and anxiety, bills, relationships, responsibilities. Adults are end up being responsible for a lot and that can actually increase anyone's anxiety really. So the one that sometimes, like you said, being chased by a bear, it's very obvious and it's a fear. I have a friend, I hope he's not listening because I'm about to tell his business.
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He is so afraid of flying. He takes anxiety pills before he flies because his work sometimes requires him to do so. So is that fear of flying or is that anxiety? That's a really interesting question. And I think it might fall in that gray area um because the anxiety and the fear are probably acting at the same time. So the anxiety might be uh your friend, you know, being in
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in his head, like that we get there on time and just abstract thoughts about like, hope the pilot's paying attention and stuff like that. And then the fear might actually be, you you're sitting on a plane and you look out the window or something like that. And so it can actually be both really at the same time. So obviously when it's both, there's no way, like you said, it's a gray area to be specifically identifying that this is what it is.
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Well, I would say it is fear and anxiety and what those two can both be managed through relaxation techniques, know, grounding. So maybe your friend might want to try five seconds on every in-breath, seven on every out-breath, focusing on the air coming in and out. That's a favorite relaxation technique I'll coach people through.
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I'll definitely share that with him, see if it can help. Yeah. Cause he flies a lot. When it comes to anxiety as well, first of all, do you have patients who come to you and say, feel like my anxiety is just, it's paralyzing. cannot function. I need help. Yes. I definitely get those clients. It can range anywhere from more of a generalized anxiety disorder, which means like your baseline anxiety is higher than average. And that can be really.
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upsetting and disruptive. And then all the way up to like panic attacks. Some people get regular panic attacks. Anxiety can really present in a lot of ways, but yes, I do work with a lot of anxiety. And then when it comes to burnout, is that purely caused by working hard or are there some other factors that contribute to people feeling burnt out? Actually, working hard is not necessarily going to create burnout.
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It depends on the anticipation of stress in that work. So if someone works hard and they love what they do and they look forward to it every day, they're unlikely to get burnt out unless they're like working at an extreme pace. But if somebody really despises what they do and stresses about it every day and only maybe works like four hours a day or something like that, that can cause burnout. So really it's more of the anticipation of stress.
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than it is the actual workload. Although the workload does play a little bit of a role too, if that makes sense. It does, no. My face is like this because I actually never realized that those who really love what they do, they don't always experience burnout. Cause I've always thought, you know, those people who don't ever take vacation and they work for seven years straight, even on weekends, they don't see their families.
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person says suddenly I was burned out of the seven years and I couldn't wake up in the morning. Hence I say, I'm glad that you're here so we can break down a lot of the mental health myths. I've always thought it had to do with how much you exert your physical body for a lengthy period of time, no rest until it says I'm giving in. It can, don't get me wrong. And somebody like that, maybe if you work 60 hours a week or something like that, even if you love it,
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the body can only take so much. And so that can cause burnout as well. So workload does play a role. It's just a little bit less direct than the anticipation of stress. So anybody who hits the job, even if they work 40 hours a week, at some point they could potentially experience burnout because of the stress. Absolutely. Oh, wow. Okay. What else do we get wrong about mental health?
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I think that we operate on a model of like somebody's behavior is the indicator of who they are, right? And to an extent, that's a good way to operate. So like if somebody asks a lot of anxious questions over and over again, we think, well, that person's really, I don't know, maybe you'd make a bad judgment about that person. But I think we've got to realize that mental health is health. And so,
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you know, we wouldn't criticize someone for necessarily like having diabetes or something like that. um And it's like kind of the same thing. We have to treat it from a more medical standpoint and have compassion for those who struggle with it. That is very tricky, especially as humans, because yes, we usually tend to make a judgment about someone else based on their behavior, based on their interaction. Like you said earlier, if they interrupt while other people are talking and things like that.
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So we don't usually just jump into the mental health conclusion. We just think, who raised you? things like that. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to read. Yeah, obviously, a lot of us are not professionals like you. So we don't immediately identify that, ha, this is what's going on here. It can be tough to see the difference sometimes. But if you see somebody acting
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strangely or encounter that, then I'd say the thing that anybody can do is think a little bit about like, okay, why might that be rather than jumping to a conclusion or making a negative judgment? Like what's that person trying to get out of this? What's the function? Or using the buzzword, oh, he's a narcissist. Yeah, yeah. Stay away from that one too. Please, yes. Okay.
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So since COVID, we started having this trend of, because obviously sometimes people couldn't physically consult with their healthcare professionals. We started having telehealth. Have you found that at least from what your clients say as well, have you found that it has been effective? Like if I need help, whether we do a Zoom call like this and I say, okay, Brian is my psychotherapist. Have you found that
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it helps, it's effective, or do I really get the best out of the therapy session if I come to your physical office? I would say ultimately it does depend a little bit, but in my experience people have done really well with telehealth. In fact, sometimes even better than they would have with in-person. And so it's a trade-off. In-person you get
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that human touch, person-to-person interaction, and also it does make people get outside of their comfort zone, which can be good for certain things that people are going through. However, telehealth, think on the other hand, allows people to access therapy who are busy, who don't have the energy or the willpower to go in person. It makes it accessible for people who live in remote areas. So it's definitely an important part of the care spectrum, I guess. COVID was...
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Ironically, the catalyst for it, it wasn't around much before that. Right. Yeah. So everybody can have access instead of saying, oh, I live far away. There's no therapist in my little town. So they can just have a Zoom call with their therapist and do that. Here's one thing I've always wondered about a group therapy session. Is it effective for each individual attendee?
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Absolutely. I think group therapy is a different dynamic really than individual. It offers different things, but it absolutely is effective. One thing that group therapy offers is peer to peer support. So sometimes when we're going through pretty much anything, especially mental health related, it can feel very isolating. We wonder if other people are going through it. Maybe we judge ourselves for going through it.
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And then you see maybe if you're in a group of 10 other people going through the exact same thing, it normalizes a lot. And you also have the benefit of the therapist. I think the trade-off is that in groups, there's less individual attention, right? So we do have to let other people speak. And so it's kind of a, it's a trade, but I think group definitely is a great tool. So it has its pros as well, because I've wondered, as you said, because you don't get
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individual attention first, but also is everyone in a group therapy session, are they vulnerable enough to open up to strangers? Because I can open to a stranger who is Brian because he's trained. I know he knows what he's doing and the client doctor relationship and whatnot. So are they free to feel that I can open up to these 10 strangers?
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I think it probably depends on the individual. think it again, it might be a little bit of a trade off. Let's say it's a depression support group, right? And so somebody else opens up about their struggle with depression. I think that that would encourage someone in the group say like, okay, this is fair game. That person just disclosed how they're feeling. So, you know, maybe I can too. But I think other people might feel intimidated by that. You want to.
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be honest with yourself and think like, okay, would I rather talk to one person who's a professional or do I want to open up to group of people who are going through the same thing? And how different is that from your typical support group? If I'm in my community and I've gone through something and there's a support group for people who've gone through that, how different is that from an actual group therapy session that involves a professional like you?
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So group therapy with a professional is a little bit more structured. The professional will act as kind of a moderator and encourage equivalent support and basically make it run a little bit smoother. And so I think a support group is just usually it's peers and occasionally there's a professional, but there's less structure. A support group would just be like open sharing about it. Here's what worked for me.
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this is what I struggle with, that type of thing versus a group therapy session, the professional might jump in and say like, offer a little bit of information and then redirect it to someone else. So make sure there's equal participation and that it runs a little bit more efficiently. Yeah, especially if you have those people we mentioned earlier who love the sounds of their own voices and then the only ones who keep rotating when everybody needs to talk. Yes, yeah.
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So any couples listening today, what would you give them as a tool in order to better their communication, which will obviously make it better for their relationship? I would say be honest with yourself and look at, we all have emotions that we project to be safe and then we have how we really feel. And sometimes those aren't the same. So if I'm showing up as angry,
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because I feel threatened that my partner says something that made me wonder about their relationship. You know, I'm going to maybe huff and puff and look angry and that's going to create defensiveness and go nowhere. Versus if I'm honest with my partner and say, hey, what you said made me feel kind of insecure. Did you mean that? That's going to create two different reactions. And so look at the primary emotion rather than the reactive one that we give out. If that makes sense, folks. It does.
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Because I'm thinking, especially for me, I would say sometimes if somebody does something like that, because I would say, oh my goodness, cruelty scares me. I fear cruelty. I'd rather a person says, Roberta, what you did hurt my feelings versus saying something really painful. That's because what I did might have hurt you. Instead of addressing it, you say something worse back to me. Yes.
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That scares me. So I just went through and said, whoa, this was like a bear coming charging towards me. Yeah. So yeah, some of us, yes, you find that the more you do that, the more we step away, which obviously means the relationship you see, we grow further and further apart. So I think it's very important. And I know being vulnerable and actually because I think sometimes we have this power struggle of
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I don't want this person to see me vulnerable and crying and saying, oh my goodness. You want to feel like, oh no, the powers are going to shift. I don't want to show him that. And so that's why we do the reactive thing rather than the, let's address the emotion thing. it does take that little bit of bravery, little bit of vulnerability, as you mentioned, to do that. And it can be scary, but.
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assuming the other person is receptive and we've got a relationship like that, then it can really heal things quickly. And oh one last thing, what you were talking about earlier regarding us not realizing that a lot of the time when we judge people, this character, we don't realize that they might be mental health challenges that they're facing. How can you make us at least just give us
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a strategy on how to identify that that's what it is instead of jumping into judgemental conclusions. Yeah, that's a complicated one. think if I'm going to give some blanket advice, it would be if we we jumped to the negative conclusion often by nature, right, when somebody does something offensive to us or disruptive to us. And so challenge yourself to think why else might that person be doing what they're doing if
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If someone cuts us off in traffic, we assume that, you know, maybe they're a jerk. We're like, we'll make that kind of attribution versus like, maybe they're really stressed out or, you know, maybe they're in a hurry or there's an emergency. Yeah, maybe the wife is having a baby. They just got the call. Exactly. Exactly. We always assume the worst. I'm feeling disrespected or this person is, yeah, we usually jump to the reactive part.
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Any last words of wisdom, Bryan? Anything that you were hoping to share today that I haven't asked you yet? Of course. So folks listening, if they want to learn more, I've got some free resources on my website, www.EmpowerMyTherapy.com. If you scroll down a little bit from the homepage, it explains the best practice for each major thing that we treat. Also, you can get 20 minutes with me if you're looking for care. Go to book a free consultation right at the top.
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I'll talk to you for 20 minutes and figure out how we can best help you. And even if Empower can help you, I'll figure out who can. Okay. Please share the website again. www.EmpowerMyTherapy.com. EmpowerMyTherapy.com. Bryan Gastelle, Clinical Psychologist, Founder of Empower Psychotherapy, who has helped us understand a lot.
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of mental health issues today. Thank you so much, Bryan, for being on our show. Very much a pleasure. Thanks for having me. My pleasure as well. Don't forget to subscribe, liberating, review on Apple and Spotify. And stay tuned for more episodes to come.