Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta.

If you are interested in improving your communication skills, this is the podcast for you.

Today, we are very privileged to be joined by Betsy Kauffman.

She is a TED speaker and organizational agility consultant and leadership coach.

And before we go any further, please help me welcome Betsy.

Hi, Betsy.

Hi, Roberta.

Thank you so much for having me on your show.

I really appreciate it.

Glad to have you here.

So first of all, let's discuss your TED Talk.

Yeah, TED Talk was definitely been a whirlwind of excitement.

It actually launched back in January onto the main stage, January of 2021.

And it's funny because it came about, as you know, I'm a leadership coach and I coach all kinds of different companies and leaders.

And I was having several one on one conversations.

And the theme that kept coming up was like, I really wish I could just say this out loud.

I really wish I could let it be known.

And it was just a topic that was happening in every single session that I was having with a group of leaders.

So I'm like, what's stopping you from having these conversations and saying what's going on in the organization?

There's always a number of things.

When I submitted it, it was just sitting there top of mind.

I had one day left in the deadline to get it in.

I'm like, you know, I'm going to submit this topic because it really is something that's near and dear to me of how to have honest conversations at work.

And so that's where it started.

And it's four tips on how to kickstart those honest conversations.

And I think it's a topic that never goes out of style because we're consistently having that challenge as to how to really be able to speak up and how to be able to talk about what's happening in the room, in the team, in the organization.

Because way too many times we actually are having those really important conversations outside.

We reach out to a peer either virtually or if we're back in the office, you know, when we're sitting at a lunch break, we're not having them where they need to be had, which is front and center in front of the entire organization.

So that's how it came about.

There's four tips to it and we can get into those.

We're looking forward to hearing those.

Have we as a culture become a little bit too sensitive?

Everybody gets offended.

Is that the reason you drive that talk to a peer because it's safe?

As we get older, people probably stop us from saying things out loud.

We worry that it's going to have a negative impact on either our job performance or on our promotion performance, or you may be working in a place that's not safe to have those type of conversations, because leaders don't want to hear what's going on, right?

So I think it's a factor of all of those.

It really becomes problematic because as leaders, they want to know what's going on.

They're sitting at a different altitude and they're getting a lot of things coming up.

And so there's something that's coming up that's not being addressed.

They actually do want to know about it.

Now, they may not respond the way that we'd like them to.

And that's part of the other side of it is how do we coach leaders to be receptive to those types of conversations?

But they need to know when things aren't going to go well before they actually don't go well.

As leaders and as organizations, we need to start to create that culture that praises those conversations and allows those conversations to happen and reward them.

Preventive rather than damage control after.

Yeah, we want to do fire prevention instead of firefighting.

That's right.

In my corporate career, I've experienced leaders who basically thought they didn't have time to have emotional staff conversations because we had deadlines and projects to complete.

I remember the one small company I worked for.

My CEO used to appreciate you coming up with that new idea so much.

And you'll get an even bigger bonus.

Absolutely.

And Robert, I mean, think about it now.

Which company would you rather work for?

Even today, right?

Forget the name.

Exactly.

The one that encourages me to say, I hear you, boss, but you know what?

I have a thought on this too.

And he'd actually welcome it.

What's going to make us look good as a company?

Right.

Employees are actually closer to the problems that we're trying to solve and understanding a little bit better what our customers want, what products are services or whatever we do as a company.

You'd be really surprised what kind of amazing and creative and innovative ideas will come out from just asking your employees, because they're seeing what's going on.

They're actually closer to creating whatever it is that you do as an organization.

So let's talk about the four tips from your talk.

Yeah, sure.

So the first tip is confidence.

You got to actually have the confidence to want to speak up, say what's going on, to be able to give ideas, to be able to say, hey, this project maybe isn't going to make the deadlines or it's not on track for what we thought, or it's not going to meet our customer revenue goals because we're not building it the right way, whatever it is.

Usually the hardest part of it is finding that confidence and that courage.

So always the confidence and the courage to speak up.

And as you know, that is usually the one thing that potentially holds us back, where the repercussions potentially could be damaging.

But I actually don't think it is.

The other three tips will help you with that.

The second tip is to understand what is your intent behind speaking up.

We all, you know, the story of Chicken Little, right?

We don't want to speak up to speak up.

It's like you have to have good positive intent.

So by me saying what's going on, the intent is that I actually want to inform the leaders and I want to do something better so that we don't go down this path.

Understand your intent for speaking up and you're not one of those folks that just tend to chatter and the sky is falling and we can't experience.

And that's the other problem is that we end up starting to tune those types of folks out, right?

Because every time, if they're the folks that are just like coming up and they just want to keep throwing the grenades and the bad things that are happening out there, we tend to tune them out and they actually, their voices get dampened because they're like, oh, okay, here they go again.

We're not going to say that.

So, you know, make sure you have a really good solid intent of what you want to say and what it's going to do to move the conversation forward.

And then the third thing is don't sugarcoat it.

Understand how to deliver the message very directly with facts and not emotion.

We can state factually what is happening and what we see is going to happen.

And we don't spend a lot of time kind of beating around the bush.

How it gets delivered is how it's going to be received.

And so that takes sometimes practice to say, okay, I've got to make sure that when I deliver information that is very open and honest and may not be the most popular positive thing to be in the room, I deliver it with a really clear, non-emotional, factual, fact-based message.

I'm succinct with it.

A lot of times as women, we tend to speak around it and speak a lot and, you know, we don't stop.

So instead be the reason sometimes people tune out as well.

Exactly.

Because we just go on and on and on and we aren't like really sick.

What's the point?

Hey, we're not going to make this project deadline.

And this is why.

Boom, boom, done, right.

So, you know, usually it's nice to have accountability partner or mentors.

If you know that you struggle with being able to deliver messages very succinctly and factually, it's always great to practice.

I know sometimes if I have to deliver some news, it's not going to be well received.

I will practice out loud and like in front of a mirror, because when I hear my voice and I hear myself saying it out loud, it actually one gives me the confidence and I can kind of get that verbiage down and figure out what it is I really want to say.

And how am I going to deliver that message?

Or if you've got a peer or someone that you really respect, in fact, hey, I want to I want to practice with you.

Let me know how this lands with you when I deliver the message.

So there's like little micro tips within the four tips here.

And then the tip is come with a resolution or at least have the openness to say, OK, we have to have a resolution to this.

So it's one thing to actually have the honest conversation and put it out there and not sugarcoat it and have intent.

But then just don't like leave it there, right?

Like a mic drop moment to say, boom, OK, now I'm going to leave the room.

Here's everything that's happening.

We're not going to deliver.

I'm out.

That's like typical.

So come with some sort of a resolution or, you know, I want to you need to get to a resolution.

Here are some ideas I have.

Even if they're not like the best, most grandiose ideas, at least have that type of mindset to say we have to resolve it because nobody really wants anybody's going to come in.

Like I said, like a chicken little.

The sky is falling.

OK, great.

Well, then what do we want to do about it?

Be solution driven.

They want solutions.

They want you to come with ideas.

They want you to come with ways that we can go about it.

You know, that actually just starts to feed off of each other.

So if you've got some ideas and they may not be the ones that land at the end of the day, at least it changes the conversation to being doom and gloom.

And oh my goodness, what's happening here to like, OK, now how do we deal with this?

And as a team, what's the best way to come about seeking that resolution?

Those are the four tips.

They get easier as you master them and as you kind of keep them in mind and you practice them.

But they're just so critical in order to really keep that conversation flowing at work and create better workplaces.

I work with a lot of different organizations and I'm constantly getting like the side like pings and slacks and team chats and all of that.

Like, oh my gosh, did you hear that?

You know, and so it's like, how do we kind of minimize some of that and actually bring that forward out into the open?

Because they didn't bring it out during the incident.

Oh, yeah.

So, yeah, it happens all the time.

You know, majority of us are still not back in the office.

We used to do that at cubicles or when we were going to lunch or we were doing something or right after the meeting or right before the meeting.

Now we're doing it via electronic communication channels, which then become distracting because if you're in a meeting and people are like having these side conversations via all the new awesome tools that are out there, that's what's happening.

We're not actually staying present and focused in that session, which has been very counterproductive.

I almost wonder if there's a study that we could do to say, OK, in a meeting, how many chats are sent while that meeting is going on about the meeting, right?

Not the actual issue being handled?

Yes.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Yeah, like, I don't agree with that or I don't know what's happening here.

Absolutely.

It'd be a really, really phenomenal study if we could dial into like Zoom stats or something.

That's right.

Yeah.

So what is it that leaders can do in order to create, like you said, a safe working environment for people to express their concerns without waiting to have a private conversation with you afterwards?

It really comes down to, one, as a leader, how do you respond when somebody delivers that type of news?

It is critical that you create an environment and a safe space to allow folks to speak up.

It could be a, OK, I want to hear what's going on.

There's some fun things that we've done before.

We call them like almost evil genius workshops or, OK, talk to me about all the things that are concerning you this time.

What could possibly go wrong or what are we aware of that's going to go wrong?

Right.

So we kind of create that setting to say we want to hear it and be open to it.

So, you know, you might hear something that doesn't land well and you want to deal with it.

But your response as a leader is going to really determine how that conversation goes and if they feel safe to continue to bring it up.

One, be open to those types of conversations.

And if you've got somebody in the room with you that you trust, get feedback from them to say, OK, did I handle that well?

Did I do was I open to that?

So it's good to get that kind of feedback as well as a leader.

No, you actually kind of shut them down.

You didn't want to hear it.

That self-awareness is really critical for everyone and especially for leaders because of the impact they have on the organization, how they work with different people.

Because they do less of the technical work and more the managing of people.

They do.

And people either sore, right?

And be very open and will love to work for you or they're going to shut down and they're not going to want to be a part of the conversation.

That's a really critical role for a leader is to figure out what type of environment and communication are you allowing within a group setting as well as within a one on one setting.

During a performance management review, is this something you can potentially bring up if you feel like during the course of your work there, you didn't have a chance or is that a really bad time?

You know, especially if it's your first one and you've been there six months and say, so Roberta, what do you think?

How has it been so far since you joined our company?

Can I say those things?

Or is that a bad time because I want a promotion and a raise?

Yeah, you know, I think you can absolutely say those things, right?

You need to speak up because we're in a really interesting time anyway with the whole great resignation and things.

I mean, there's a lot of great jobs out there.

And so if your employees aren't happy, you should probably know about that because you might lose them, right?

It costs a lot of money to bring on an employee, to train them, to onboard them or somebody did a poll out on LinkedIn recently.

Performance management, when you're actually having that review, all the decisions have already been made regarding like your face and your bonus and everything like that.

So at that point, it's probably just a review.

I would be honest about how's it going, where are things?

And it is about the delivery again.

So how do you deliver where there's opportunities for the leader to improve or for the workplace to improve?

So you don't want to come across as coming down on them and like, oh, I love to be able to speak up more in meetings.

And I don't feel like I have a voice right there is like a great way to say it.

And then you can talk, OK, well, then how do we do that?

Kind of leave that open ended for the leader to help you with that.

But that then brings the awareness to the leader to say, oh, thank you.

I have a feeling that in the next meeting, they'll probably call on you to say, well, what do you think, Roberta?

What do you think, Betsy?

That's an awareness that they probably weren't even aware of what was going on or how you were feeling during that time.

Until I brought it up.

You think about it, they have so much going on.

Not only do they have their direct reports that they have to work with, they also have peers.

They may have business partners or external customers or clients.

They've got leaders coming down on them.

The board of directors.

A million things that they're dealing with.

So they aren't as tuned into every little thing that's going on with every person.

And so when you bring it up, it's going to help them to be like, okay, oh, I need to be more aware of this situation and how to help them when we get into like a group conversation or whatever it is that they want to bring up as an employee.

Sounds to me with all that's going on, they might suffer from burnout.

What are some of the things that you can suggest in order for them to deal with burnout?

Yeah, so that's been a really, really critical topic that has come up quite a bit lately in a lot of the podcasts and the organizations that I work with.

I work with two or three different senior female leaders, different organizations, just having conversation.

And they're like, I have no time to think.

I'm so busy.

I get up at 730 in the morning.

I go to 530 and then I'm done and I've got everything coming at me.

So as a leader, you do control your schedule, whether you think you do or you don't, you do.

And so that needs to be a mindset shift.

How do I configure my schedule and control my schedule?

So I do have time to balance out all the things that are going on.

You have to put blocks in your schedule that are non-negotiable times for yourself in order to either think or get up and go for a walk.

Or if we're at home, grab lunch, we all control our schedules as individuals and as humans, right?

Find everything that's on the table.

Yeah, you need to.

Because if you don't, what's going to happen?

You're going to be burnt out.

You're going to be tired.

You're not going to be a great leader.

You're not going to be great for your direct reports or for your company.

So the best folks that are actually probably bringing their whole self to the table are actually bringing a balanced perspective and a balanced life in order to achieve that.

When you go on vacation, go on vacation as a leader.

Have you heard of those people who spend five years not taking a vacation?

Whether on it and they're on calls all day or they're responding to emails or that, you know, as a leader, you probably tell your team members, OK, go on vacation.

Don't check in.

You're good.

I want you to go on vacation.

But if you don't mimic that same behavior, then one, that's obviously not a great culture as well as you're going to be burnt out and your employees are not going to feel like they can do that because they're like, well, she goes on vacation, but she doesn't really go on vacation.

So is the expectation really in place that I can take this time off and go off the grid for a week or two or whatever, or am I going to be expected to keep up with what's going on?

That's critical.

Even while I'm in the Maldives.

Yeah, which is terrible.

I'd rather be in the Maldives enjoying it, right?

And we all need brain breaks.

Yes.

And we need time to decompress.

Do what you preach and make sure that you're actually taking the breaks, taking vacation, taking time during the day.

The other thing is, if you meet with all of your people every single week, one on one, kind of question yourself, because at some point you may not need to do that.

Because we want our team members to be able to be autonomous and self starters and forward thinking.

And so if they're always needing to meet with you, yeah, that's going to be a problem.

So figure out, is it every other week to meet with them?

How do you let go a little bit and to make decisions on what they do?

We were discussing the difference between a boss and a leader.

And one of the characteristics is the boss micromanages.

The leader shows their people direction and then they take the initiative to get themselves there.

We don't want people to stop thinking.

We want people to think and make decisions.

And you're not the pivotal linchpin.

One, if you can't go on vacation or if something falls apart because you leave, then you haven't actually created the right team of people around you in order to allow you to have that time off as well.

So kind of look back and say, OK, if I walk away for a week, for a day, is the world going to fall apart?

And if it is, then there's some work that needs to get done, right?

You need to look at something in the system that's not plugged in.

It's usually the leader that needs that internal look and self-awareness to say, OK, what do I need to put in place?

Who do I need to continue to groom and grow so that I'm not the linchpin and pivotal person in all of this?

You know, that's how you avoid burnout, too, because then if you feel like you've got to be in the middle of everything, you're never going to get to be able to step away or grow into your next role because you've now put a place that you can't actually move.

I think it's the ego sometimes.

Some people feed off being indispensable at work.

I'm not here.

This particular section is not going to move.

They feel like it's their security points.

We're going to suffer until Betsy comes back.

So the company is never going to let you go.

Have you seen that at all?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

You know, I'm the most important person.

And if I leave, they can't they'll never survive without me.

Well, I hate to tell you they will.

If you do put yourself in that role and for some reason you do leave, guess what?

They will eventually replace you.

Everybody can be replaced.

That's not a growth mindset.

So a growth mindset is about being open, being able to try new things, allowing yourself to explore other things and not being that lunge pin.

And we want to give other people opportunities too.

So your goal should be like, OK, how do I replace myself so that I can move into something else within the company and I can continue to have opportunities for my team to move into my role or to get some of my responsibilities?

I want to be exposed to all kinds of new and different things.

And, you know, I don't want to be dealing with.

And it makes your resume look so good when you can do so much.

It does.

It does.

You know, then that opens new doors for you, too, right?

Because then you are gaining new skills and, you know, you may not stay at the company for the next 20 years.

You may say, oh, wow, I've got all these great skills.

Let me go put them somewhere else or let me create something new, a new role within the company that I can actually take everything and combine it and go from that place forward.

And the one thing about having different skills, you even know how the businesses run from different angles.

Wouldn't that then transition you one day if you decide to open your own business, you'll know the different aspects that go into making it successful.

Absolutely.

And you can be a consultant, do all those great things.

Just one last thing that I'm curious about the word agility coach.

Why did you choose to call yourself an agility coach?

So it's funny, my background has always been in like project management and program management and software technology.

There's a movement that formally started back in 2001, the Agile Ways of Working.

As I was working in organizations and helping teams to bring agile to those companies, I've realized that it's not about the frameworks and the methods and the processes.

It's about bringing what I call little a agility.

And how do we as leaders and teams and organizations become nimble?

How do we start to think about leaning out our processes, being lean in how you're thinking and quick and making decisions?

So I like to actually take a bigger view and say, how do we bring agility to the organizations as opposed to agile, which is what has been historically the mindset, right?

Which is framework, let's apply it on to something and go.

Every organization is different, every team is different.

And so we have to take more of a pragmatic view.

But at the end of the day, we all want to achieve agility as leaders, as teams, as organizations.

That's where it stems from.

I find that when we can take that mindset, we're not so stuck in it has to be done one single way.

Because we used to do it this way 10 years ago, so we're not going to change.

Exactly.

Everything just changes so fast nowadays.

You can't afford to be stuck in the way things were done in the 90s before the internet.

Right.

Customers and products and services.

Customers are very picky these days.

And if you as an organization cannot respond quickly to your customer, you're going to start to lose out on market share.

And we're seeing that, right?

We see all these great things that are popping up, all these new companies and services.

You need to be able to respond.

You need to be able to put out new products and services quickly and fail and experiment.

And that's the agility.

So if you have an organization that is not able to do that, you're going to struggle.

Now, the big companies will continue to probably stay there for a little while, but there's always somebody that's sitting there trying to figure out how to do it better and faster and really more convenient.

Do you think that now because of that, leaders, when looking to hire people, that's one of the characteristics they should look for in a candidate?

Yeah.

We're in a really interesting time again, because leaders now are looking for soft skills, I would say, more than what I call hard skills or the technical skills, right?

And they did a talk at college recently with a bunch of about 200 graduating seniors.

And I said to them, you know, I did a poll of different leaders and asking them, what are you looking for?

Passion, you know, curiosity, creativity, ability to think, wanting to actually learn and grow.

And every single leader said, I can teach them the technical or the hard skills, but I can't teach them the soft skills.

I can't teach them to be flexible.

I can't teach them how to communicate.

Well, I can try to do that, but that's a little bit harder, right?

I can't teach them about being adaptable, being a team player.

So those are the skills that we're looking for now, as opposed to, Oh, I have all these certifications.

I've done all these schools and I've got all those, you know, these degrees.

Those are important for some and for some jobs, you know, you need to sometimes have a foundation.

There really is more of the soft skills and being able to move and navigate an organization.

However, the soft skills are probably the hard skills to master.

They're much harder to master.

And also, they're not part of the usual curriculum at university.

We're seeing kids don't communicate anymore.

Yeah, that everything is like in emojis.

Abbreviations and the acronym.

L-O-V-E and L-L-L.

And I'm like, okay, at some point we have to communicate.

Like we have to talk.

Google those acronyms because I have no idea.

Sometimes I feel the same.

Me too.

I'm like, what does this mean?

Early 2000, I was working for a brewery company and our district manager.

He is famous phrase.

But for me, degree is not important.

I don't care if you got high school.

I want a great attitude, great attitude.

Used to call him great attitude, meaning you are teachable.

You are adaptable.

Whatever happens in the company today, you'll be able to be part of the team and find a solution because you're not just stuck in being one thing.

And that is true.

I mean, if I'm interviewing somebody, you know, maybe they have the same experience, I'm going to always pick the one that is has a good attitude, wants to be there and is excited.

And maybe they don't have as much skills or as much background as the other candidate.

But if they've got the willingness to want to be there, I'm going to pick them nine times out of ten over the other person.

I don't want to have to deal with somebody who doesn't have a good attitude, who doesn't want to learn new things, who doesn't want to be flexible or adaptable.

We're all now working a lot in teams and you've got to be able to allow teams to help you.

And if you're not a team player, you're going to really struggle.

Because you're going to work with people and you're going to work with clients who are people as well.

Exactly.

Exactly.

This has been such a world of information.

Anyone who's listening is greatly going to benefit from this.

Thank you, Roberta.

It's been so much fun.

We had so many great topics that we just explored.

We should have more time, actually.

Yes.

And before you go, where can we find you so that we can have more information?

Absolutely.

Best places to go to my website, crossimpactcoaching.com.

Or you can link in with me, Betsy Kauffman, and we are a leadership and organizational design firm.

We do one-on-one leadership coaching.

We do team development, which we love.

And then we do organizational design, helping with organizations to become agility, right?

Yes.

Betsy Kauffman, the organizational agility coach, was with us today.

And it's been such a wonderful conversation.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, Roberta.

I appreciate it.