Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Personally, I have experienced this myself, not being heard, just being dismissed and shut down just because the healthcare provider I was speaking to was just not able to see things from my perspective and was just clouded by their own personal bias. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally,
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This is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work, pitch to investors or an entrepreneur looking to showcase their innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network.
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which is a centralized hub that helps listeners become their best selves at work and in life. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to bepodcastnetwork.com. Let's get communicating!
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My guest today, we share a similar background in that we teach English to non-English speaking nationals. Today, Shweta Ramkumar, who has a background in both education and healthcare, is here to tell us about her business, which helps healthcare professionals who are from ESL countries on improving their communication skills, especially with.
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patients and their colleagues. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Shweta. Hi, Roberta. It's a real privilege and honor to be here. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak at your podcast. Thank you for being here. Welcome to the show. And we are glad for you to be here because even though we've touched a little bit on the healthcare professional side, when it comes to communication skills and soft skills,
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We haven't delved as deep as you would today. So I'm looking forward to our conversation. But before we get into that, please tell us a little bit about yourself. So my name is Shweta. I am based in Melbourne, Australia. I have lived here for the past 21 years. And as you mentioned previously, I have worked almost all my life in both the education and healthcare space. And the business of mine that I launched a couple of months ago, it's a coaching practice. It's called Healthy Dynamics.
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a name that I came up with, you know, pretty much at the spur of the moment. And that really focuses on helping healthcare professionals from non-English speaking backgrounds, so whose English is not their first language, improve not just their grammar, vocabulary, and all the mechanics of the English language, but predominantly their communication skills. So like you mentioned in your podcast, the soft skills, it's with the focus of not only
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authentic in terms of their self-expression, but also to build the relationship that they should have of trust and credibility with their patients as well as in the workplace for them to achieve that excellence and really stand out in the workplace and get better opportunities for themselves. So it focuses not only on people who are based in non-English speaking countries, but also the ones who are relocating or considering relocating or living.
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in English speaking countries such as myself, Canada, it is open to everyone in that space. What made you decide that you were going to coach specifically that niche? So I have been in the ESL space and what I really gathered is that when they are trying to sort of speak and communicate, I think the focus, they get very conscious and the focus really is on how do I say this grammatically correctly?
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vocabulary do I use? What is the sentence structure? So they get very caught up in all that. And the ability to really be themselves, speak up in their own authentic way, sort of falls behind the lines in some way, even though they may have achieved a certain level of that whole structure of how what makes non-English speaker intermediate to advanced or elementary to intermediate or whatever. And they have all the tools in order to
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sort of converse in that space, because the focus is so much on that, that element of how to actually communicate in a way that has empathy, that has active listening, things that I talk about and I train my clients on, that I found was significantly missing. And my work in healthcare over the years as well, and because I spoke all the time to patients, that's what they used to tell me, that I don't want to be seen by this particular doctor who has this type of accent
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But accent was not really the problem. The problem was they were speaking in a way that the patient was not understanding and was really not demonstrating skills that showed that they were listening and they cared about the patient genuinely. It was just like they were just going through the list of things to tick off and going through that sort of cycle of patients every single day. So I felt that it's a bit of an untapped market. And because I have experience in both spaces,
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this sort of married both of them up quite well. And also I felt like, as I said, it is an untapped market which people can really benefit from. And I think especially since COVID and now where people are now, even if they can go to healthcare professionals, they are opting for telehealth more often than not. And they are, and we're getting therapy and all that from people from other countries in the world. And we are living in a culturally and linguistically diverse world. So I felt that people could really benefit from all this.
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And also it sort of plays well with what I'm good at as well, which is obviously. You know, it's interesting. First of all, I would like to say also, as I said, we share the same ESL background. One thing I noticed in far Eastern countries is that because test scores and excelling on those is such a high priority. That is why even as they grow up and they enter the workspace, when they in English environments, that's why the.
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obsession over having perfect grammar or not talk at all sometimes is the reason because it's always the high test scores and high test scores be perfect in the grammar. And then secondly, I had a guest who she taught in Japan, I think, and her podcast, their motto is connection, not perfection, because they also focus on ESL.
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Don't be stressed about perfect grammar and sounding like a native speaker. That is not the goal. The goal is for you to genuinely authentically express yourself and connect with the other person. So if they are so stressed about the grammar and saying things perfectly and just listing whatever is wrong to the patient. So I think that's why patients don't feel connected. Mm-hmm. Yes. Because the healthcare professional is so stressed about, I want to sound perfect.
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Hence all those things you've mentioned feel like they are missing in their part of the conversation. Yeah. And also I think, and I do appreciate that healthcare professionals have a very difficult and a very stressful and tough job. And they are always busy and they're under a lot of pressure. So for them, the way that they work is that they just want to get rid of, you know, they get like 10 minutes or a very short amount of time with a patient, a little bit of time. They're having to do a billion things.
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They're having to take notes. If you're a technician, for example, in the radiology space, you're having to do the scan thoroughly and set up the machine currently. Again, that pressure of multitasking and doing things in a timely manner and being efficient, that also sometimes can be a roadblock in really building that trust and connection with a patient. So I do appreciate that. I mean, I couldn't do the job of a clinician or someone in the clinical space. It's very hard. And what I do see is that
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patients always in my past roles and all that, my patients have said to me that they want to go to this particular provider over another one, only because they feel heard, they feel validated, they feel understood and they feel respected, which others don't really tend to do. So, and I myself am like that. So I will be starting therapy for myself. And I also had to go through the whole process of finding the right therapist who would be a good match.
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it came with a lot of trial and error and I was thinking the same things. And I have fortunately found a good therapist that I connect really well with, who's been on a similar journey as me. So I'm looking forward to starting that experience with her. But when I put myself in the patient's shoes, I can completely see where they're coming from. I hear you and I do as well try to put myself in the patient's shoes, as you explained, in this scenario.
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But also when I think about the ESL professionals in that same scenario, this thing of feeling heard and validated and connection, I think there's a cultural element there that's different as well. Sure. Yes. If I want to validate you and your feelings, you know how sometimes they even have those trainings where they say, Shweta, you really upset, aren't you? So I'm validating your feelings right now.
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before whether I come with the solution or whatever it is. So we've been trained, we've been brought up, we've been socialized into being that way in validating people's feelings and making them feel heard. In contrast to, I can only speak for South Korea, that's why I was, I don't know about the other countries, but in contrast to, I don't think that that's usually how they do it there. Yes, I understand the patient's pain, but that's
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person from those countries who's just doing their work, they are not intentionally saying, I'm not gonna take time to validate this person. I'm just doing my job and then they must get out of my office and I see the next patient. You know what I mean? Because they haven't had that level of socialization and coaching and being a cultural norm to validate people's feelings and saying expressions and using words and phrases that make them feel heard. That's a cultural difference, no?
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Yeah, and again, going back to the cultural aspect, and I do talk about this in one of my past video series, but I did mention of respect. And this is particularly evident in the culture that I grew up in, which was India, and also some of the Southern Asian and Southeast Asian cultures, that the social hierarchy and the professional hierarchy plays a big part in how patients view healthcare providers and how healthcare providers interact with patients.
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So in these sort of countries, healthcare providers, particularly doctors, are put up on a pedestal and they're literally worshiped. But at the same time, the doctor or the healthcare provider, whoever it is, I have to stop consciously saying doctor because that's something that my audience has actually asked me that, you know, my content is very focused for doctors and it's not. Anyone in the clinical space who works with patients, they can get something out of it. But anyway, they, again, they sort of bring their own biases in some way.
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If, for example, if they're say in the gynecology space, so doing a scan or a test on a female patient, and I went through this myself, you know, a couple of years ago, when I was having a ultrasound of my pelvis, my sonographer was this Chinese guy, and he could see in my script from the doctor that this is why the scan is needed. And the first thing he asks me is that, are you having the scan because you're planning to get pregnant? That's just an assumption that there's no evidence for it.
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He just assumed because in their mind, the assumption is just as an example, that women do all these kind of tests on female patients because every woman wants to have a child. Again, this is just one of the many assumptions that people tend to have and that's to do with how they are brought up in their cultures, the values, the beliefs that they instilled in their culture about different things and going back into the mental health space again, even though you have.
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psychologists, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists and everything. They can also be like that. Personally, I've experienced this myself, that not being heard, just being dismissed and shut down just because the healthcare provider I was speaking to was just not able to see things from my perspective and were just clouded by their own personal bias and conditioning whether it's professionally or socially or culturally. That led to that disconnect quite often.
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they seem to have a very narrow kind of view of what the patient is, what they're looking for. And there is a tendency that they tend to have more of a cookie cutter approach, I would say. So they, every patient is the same. They have to get the same treatment. They have to be done in this effort. And I always mentioned this, that every patient is unique. Like, it's like every individual is unique. So what works one is not gonna necessarily work for the other person. And that is something that I also emphasize on, that you have to treat each patient.
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see them from a unique set of lens every single time. So it's a new experience every time. It's interesting you put in the R-E-S-P-E-C-T because one thing I used to admire and truly enjoyed about teaching Korean kids and also some professionals sometimes was respect is literally number one in the culture. That's why they have teachers there. They show so much appreciation for teachers.
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So that's respect. Number one, it's really big in their culture. And then secondly, the hierarchy of who's older and you respect the older person. Yes, that has its pros and cons. Like for instance, one of the cons is if the older person is wrong, which sometimes they are, is you cannot challenge them due to the respect element. Right? Yes. So that works in South Korea. However, if
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Now you go to Australia as a Korean person, it's gonna be a different culture first of all. Respect, if the Australian patient feels like they are being disrespected and their feelings are not validated, my argument would be, I don't think the Korean professional is seeing that as disrespect. Totally, totally, yeah. Sufficient exposed to it, yeah. Right, also the biases as well.
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Okay, I'm not sure about the healthcare perspective of every patient is the same and everything and how when they are being trained, obviously they've never been to medical school, how they are being trained in Korea versus when they now go to work in Australia, if that is part of the training of, you know, see each person is a different person. Because again, like I said earlier, in Western countries, we are socialized that way. Every child is unique. If we have four kids, even parents are.
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taught to send their focus is whole different unique individuals and everything, which yes, I may not have been aware of, but I don't think that in Korean culture that was emphasized enough. So I'm wondering, where do we find the common ground between the patient thinking, this doctor is disrespecting me versus they are just not aware or they are not socialized in the way that I expect if I have a health care professional taking care of me.
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You bring up a good point there because, and again, this is what I've experienced. I think when patients go rock up to any kind of healthcare space, they are already in a fragile state of mind. They are already very vulnerable and they're quite anxious and they are looking for solutions and they are looking to be heard and they're looking to be validated and they're looking to be respected and cared for. And ultimately they want to be in a better place. So, because they have so much in their mind,
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they are not able to see the fact that, okay, this particular healthcare provider doesn't have that experience because they may have recently moved to the country and they're not really aware of the nuances or things like that or whatever. What they will do is that then they will tell me or whoever it is, or they'll tell their family and friends, I don't wanna go to this particular person and they'll just blame it on the accent, because I can't understand what they're saying or this healthcare provider does not really care, does not listen to me. And they'll put it that way, but...
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When I hear that, I see what they mean. I see the deeper side of where they're coming from with this. That particular healthcare provider is unaware and probably doesn't emphasize on the fact that their knowledge and their experience is not really the only way that's gonna make them successful. And I too mentioned, I think it was a while ago, I did a live stream with another friend of mine, Coralie, who was also in the healthcare space. She's a therapist.
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We both got talking about the definition of professionalism. And that actually inspired me to make a post on my LinkedIn about what professionalism is in the healthcare space. Now there's a TV show, Doctor in the House. So this one doctor, British guy, Asian British guy, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, obviously he's a, he's a GP and, but he had, we wanted to actually go and live with the patients and things like that. When I learned more about what he does, he has his books, he has a podcast and he has a YouTube.
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When I remember watching that show, and I watched because I watched it on YouTube, every comment that said he is such a kindhearted, caring, compassionate person who really listens. And this was despite him. Yes, he has his accolades. He has his MBBS or whatever. And he was not somebody who was walking around with a white coat and a stethoscope or wearing a suit. He was just wearing casual clothes like I am. And that's what professionalism now is. It's not about what
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how you present yourself externally and saying the right things. It's all these elements that you know, you treat every patient uniquely, you are able to listen to them actively, you are able to validate them. You're showing genuine empathy and compassion and you are not, you're not pigeonholing them, you're not putting them in the same box. That is what we both agreed on, that that's what professional is nowadays and that's what people really need. Not just patients, but people in general, they want more authenticity, they want more...
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realness and the human side, rather than just hiding behind the degrees and accolades and the work experience and everything like that. Yeah, that was quite a profound thing that I counted. You just summed up the very foundation of our show, the self skills. And the funny thing is we usually talk about them in the concept of the workplace, the office, but yes, I can see how they apply in the healthcare space as well.
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Earlier you talked about how, you know, the ask the question, like, you know, are you looking to get pregnant? Is there sometimes like, you know, a patient file, I want to know not just what you're suffering with right now. So we can heal that. But if you're going to come back and be my regular patient, you know, like you have your family doctor, like we're not growing up. Like I want to know your long-term health plans. Would that have been the reason?
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potentially why the doctor asked that question, or like you said, he just boxes women into all this everybody wants to have a child. In that case, this was on doctor, it was a sonographer. I think that was just an assumption. And because sonographers, they don't really care about, because if you go and have a radiology scan, you're gonna go to different places and you're gonna have different people. The technician is gonna be different. The technician's job is just to look at the doctor's script and the reason why the test needs to be done and just go ahead and do it.
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Obviously during that time it helps when the sonographer is quite reassuring to the patients because I have worked in radiology and still currently do a lot of work there. And radiology scans are scary. I remember when I was about four or five years old, that's when I had my first x-ray off my head. And being a four or five year old kid, this was back in the day in India when healthcare machines and everything were not that well developed.
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That was when I had my biggest first tantrum as a kid, because I thought that the extreme machine in that hospital was like a transformer. I just tore the entire place apart. Similarly, I remember once a patient telling me, an elderly patient who had an ultrasound for the first time, and she was very nice about it when she was giving this feedback. She said, your technician was lovely. She really heard me out. She was building a good rapport with me and whatever else, but she was so focused on technically
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scanning the correct part of the body without realizing that, oh, the patient is actually experiencing a little bit of discomfort. Then the next day the patient rings and I, you know, I take the call and then she says, I still experience a lot of discomfort in the area because of how she was punching on it or, you know, putting the equipment at all at the time. That again is a skill that radiographers, serographers have to do, not only build a rapport but also ask the patient how they're feeling.
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giving them that reassurance that this will be okay. Because as I said, doing a radiology scan, because you have big machines and especially when you have an MRI machine, that terrifies patients because you're going into a tunnel and it's noisy. You're there for God knows how long and that can be terrifying. So again, that's a skill that technicians can really benefit from. Not just tell them, oh, this is what dot points what an MRI is going to entail because they can look at that on YouTube. So the important thing is that the technician actually tells them that.
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is what I'll be doing to make sure that you have a good experience. If at any point you feel discomfort, let me know. I'll change things. Yeah. So that again goes a really long way in building that trust. I'm just saying this from a technician perspective, but this can really apply to any space. Yeah. Building rapport. I wonder if that pregnancy question was also a way of building rapport. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. I mean, you know, for some, yes,
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people are having that kind of scan done. And again, if I go into my detail, it was because I had cysts in my ovaries at the time, and that can hinder people from having kids because it can affect your fertility. So this guy, he just assumed that that's why they're having the scan, because maybe in the past, that's what happened. All these women, they were having this particular scan because their intention was to get rid of those cysts and they can get pregnant. Now, for me, as a woman who's never wanted kids, it's never gonna happen, so I don't care.
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If I'm just worried about if there's a bigger problem, if I have fibroids, if I have endometriosis or something, that's what I'm worried about. Is my understanding of this scenario, because we're using it as an example. Okay. First of all, yes, when you have machines around you as they should just keep checking if you're okay, if you're comfortable. But also then ask questions about the current scenario and not anything that that's relevant because it could potentially offend the patient. Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah.
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All right, as you said, sorry to interrupt you, it feeds into what the patient would perceive as a bias from the doctor. All right, go ahead. Yeah, because I do mention this at certain points in my content, this concept of medical gaslighting. And this has been quite prevalent, especially in the reproductive space. And it's not just doctors who do it, it's just anybody in that space. So what would happen is that
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A female patient would go to a doctor, would go to any health care provider and say to them, I'm experiencing really heavy abdominal pain and I'm just concerned that I may have fibroids, I may have endometriosis, can we just look into that? Now that's problematic in itself because they might be self-diagnosed. We're not going to go there. That's a completely different issue. But what happens is in those scenarios, instead of going ahead just for reassurance purposes,
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I've heard, because I'm in those communities a lot, and healthcare professionals have told these patients that, oh, if you get pregnant, your endometriosis will go. So then they will just refuse to do the test completely because what they do is the woman's fertility is much more important than what the immediate condition that she's experiencing. So they don't want to sort of get in the way. And don't even get me started on how some healthcare providers will not give, more female than male patients, give them bodily autonomy. So they will...
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Like for example, whether a woman has children already, doesn't want any more or doesn't want children altogether, they'll say, okay, you know, I just want to take care of this permanently. I want to get sterilized. Most healthcare providers will say, no, we're not doing this because what if you change your mind? They usually, yes, they usually look at your age. I'm 47. If I said that, they're not going to change my mind. But if they say, if you come then you're 21, you might feel differently, should it be 25.
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I heard of those scenarios saying they usually look at your age and they say, yes, I change your mind. But back to the medical care sliding as well. We're trying, I think, in this conversation to understand both the patient side and why these healthcare professionals from non English speaking countries act the way they do. And let's now look at solutions. What potentially could be solutions to
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You've obviously started one with coaching the professionals so that they understand how things are done and validating their patients. But also, is there a way of bridging this communication gap? Because I feel like it's still a communication gap. Of course it is. Yeah. And then a cultural one, of course, inside that whole mix. But what are some solutions we can look into for these scenarios? I guess, you know, if you are in a position where
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And it's more prevalent in places that are, if they're living or working in places that are more culturally diverse, if they get exposed to that a little bit more. So having the experience of working with a variety of patients, not just in terms of what conditions they're experiencing, but also the fact that every single patient is going to be from a different background, from a different culture, of a different age, et cetera. And also, I guess, being reflective, whether I'm as a coach, as a teacher or anything,
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For me, I am a very introspective and reflective person. So I always make sure that I am in a position that I'm learning from my experiences and how I can do better. You're not only holding yourself accountable in the process, but also that will benefit you professionally. It will help you get to a more, a place of excellence, sure. Can I ask you a question? Of course. How did you know that I should be aware of my behavior?
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I should reflect sometimes so I can learn from it. Is that something you innately knew or because of the society you grew up in, those are things that, you know, they almost become the norm or something we talked about in just in general conversations. Yeah. I mean, for me personally, I would just say that, you know, if I'm doing something, if I'm getting the same thing over and over again, if I'm getting the same feedback, I'm like, okay, something has to change.
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Yes, and that's the general principle, but I think a lot of people, they just go through the motions. They just assume that, okay, I just have to do my job. I just have to tick my boxes. I don't really and I get paid for it and I have the status, you know, and I don't really care about me becoming better. And CEOs and C-suite executives or corporations. Yeah, yeah. And it's not just them. And, you know, and
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Okay, while you might take a box, but at the same time, it keeps you stuck in that one little space. You don't grow, you don't evolve, you don't progress in other areas because you are not just doing technical job, you're also really building a career. You are building a name for yourself in the workplace and you are doing it with the purpose of standing out. And that way, if you get these skills, your chances of progressing, not just in your area, but to other avenues as well, it just opens up more doors and opportunities for you.
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whether it, and if you want to do it in this, your current field in healthcare or anywhere else, it does benefit you. And most importantly, you're dealing with humans. That's why they call them human-centered skills, which you earlier, we were talking about, you know, it's about the patient, it's about the patient, it's about making sure that the patient has comfort. And as I said earlier, your work is very important because not just the language, but culturally, I think some, a lot of the stuff we address in...
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our cultures and talk about so willy-nilly as part of general conversation, they are never brought up there. Hence I asked who made you be aware of reflecting and everything? Because in those cultures, those things are hardly talked about at least not as much as we do. Yes, 100%. So what would you suggest if a healthcare professional from a non-English speaking country listens to this conversation and they want to improve on that, the awareness, the cultural differences?
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being more in tune with the patients, because this is also human centered, one of two suggestions that you might have for them. Well, obviously finding the right coach. And I'm not saying it doesn't have to be necessarily me. It could be anybody. It could be anyone who's in that space. There's countless people who do that. And I guess also being in the workplace, because a lot of them now actually provide, depending on how innovative and things they are.
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They provide opportunities to upskill and cross-skill and get one-on-one coaching on different areas. And there are online training modules that you can take. You wanna have as many skills under your tool belt as much as possible too, so that you know in every situation what you need to do. And it all comes down to having that, again, without really sounding very fluid about this, having that sort of mindset that you want to grow and you want to do better.
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you want to show up professionally as your best self. And that's what will actually not just keep you in your current role and give you that security, but also you will get the most reward out of it in the experience as well. Because a lot of people in healthcare go into it because they want to help people. They want to serve the community. That is true. And what happens is that over time, the pressures and all the challenges that working in the space brings with it, the whole reason why they got into it in the first place, that sort of becomes a little bit diluted.
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So I think just reconnecting with the fact that this is why I joined this space. I'm curious about something. Do you know if any of the healthcare professionals from Asian countries who moved to Australia outside of work, do they socialize with the locals in Australia and get to know more and understand more of the culture or do they just go back and socialize with people who are like them? It is interesting. I have actually considered making content about this, but again sometimes I have
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I feel like I have to walk on eggshells a little bit because I don't want to post something that's going to tick people off. But then again, I mentioned so much about medical gaslighting and people have said to me that, oh, you're just throwing healthcare professionals on the bus. And even though I mentioned- That is not the point of this conversation. That's not the point. No, it's a learning experience for you. And while you can start off that way, especially if you have language as a barrier and you don't feel confident about speaking in English, you will sort of tend to gravitate.
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amongst people of your background. And there could be religious reasons, there could be other reasons why people are choosing. There's nothing wrong in that. I think what they do socially and what they do professionally when they're, again, because professionally you don't have a choice. You're gonna be working with people from everywhere. That again can lead to a potential disconnect because they don't really have that exposure in the social sense. And I do mention that if you have
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things like you have an interest in outside of work, whether it's cooking, whether it's music, whether it's craft or whatever it is, use that to form a community, use that that way, because that way not only are you bonding on a similar interest or passion, but you're also getting exposed to people from all over the world who have the same interests. You don't have to do it physically anywhere. Nowadays with social media, there are so many groups that you can join.
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That's absolutely a great suggestion because then you will get to understand the different cultural nuances and ways in which people feel heard, validated, understood. I know we can go on forever this conversation. I knew it was going to be interesting because like we both have an ESL background and have worked with ESL professionals. So hopefully you can come back another time and we can continue. That would be excellent. Yeah, it's been a really
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a joyful experience and I would love to come back and it's been a real privilege. You are most welcome. We'd love to have because there's so much to unpack here. But before you go, where can we find you on the interwebs? Sure. So I'm most active on LinkedIn. So obviously my company Healthy Dynamics, you can just look that up. Obviously I have a profile so you can join one or the other. I post there about four times a week. I am recently going to be starting up a YouTube channel as well. We're doing more videos in the coaching space of my business.
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I do have a Facebook page for it, but LinkedIn is the best place to find me. Website and there's freebie as well opt into in order to see how they best communicate. Okay, I'm going to put it on the show notes. We love freebies. Thank you so much. Lovely. Thank you so much. That was Shweta Ramkumar, who helps healthcare professionals in ESL countries improve their communication skills.
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so that they can connect more with patients. Thank you so much for being on our show today. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Likewise, I've really enjoyed it. And yeah, we should definitely do a part two at a future time. Excellent, I'm all for it. Thank you, Shweta. Likewise, thank you so much. Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show.
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please email me and my contact details will be found on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader and becoming the change you want to see. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com.
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