Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. And by the end of this episode, please remember to subscribe, give a rating and a review. One of the main things when it comes to communication is storytelling and also listening skills.
00:29
My guest today, Zac Garside, who is the CEO of Power Selling Pros and the founder of the storytelling habit. Actually, famously known as the Michael Jordan of storytelling is here to talk to us today about how you can excel in your customer relations experience using communication skills and the power of storytelling.
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And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi, Zac. Hello. That was a beautiful introduction. My goodness. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And to give you credit, you helped me put that together. So it's not all on me. Thank you for that. Welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Of course. My name is Zac. I live in the frozen tundra of Northern Utah. I grew up in Southern California.
01:24
prior to that for many years while my dad owned and operated a locksmith company. I decided not to go into locksmithing, but wordsmithing when I was picking a career. But yeah, I have a beautiful family here in Northern Utah, run a coaching company for customer service teams at Power Selling Pros by day. And by nights I'm coaching entrepreneurs to say what they do so well that buying from them becomes a no-brainer.
01:51
on our side, so to speak. A lot of us are not big fans of sales, but you're going to get to that later. So first of all, when you hear the word selling, what is it out of all the careers you could have chosen where you thought this is where I want to be? Brilliant question. I'll tell a story to answer it. How's that? Go ahead. This is a storytelling show. When I was in college, I had a sales class with a brilliant professor who was just the nicest guy ever.
02:21
And the first day of class, he puts a trash can in the middle of the room and gives each of us a stack of papers. On the papers, he asks us to write what things come to mind when we hear the word sales. And of course, people are writing things like used car, sleazy, pushy, not what I want to be doing, right? All the negative things that come to mind when you think of sales. And then he asks us to crinkle them all up and throw them into the trash can in the middle of the room. So you got this.
02:50
rainbow of papers just flying across the room into this trash can in the center, which I thought was a brilliant exercise. From that, he took our old beliefs, crushed them and taught us, no matter what career you go into, you are in sales, period. You are in the business of persuading people to grow, to change, to do something. We all do that. What is an accountant, but a salesman of the facts of the company? What is customer service, but a salesman of...
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reputation of the business. What is the CEO but the salesman of the vision of the company? We are all selling something. And when I realized that, it inspired me to build a career around helping people do it better, do the inevitable thing of selling better than they could before. Because I believe firmly that every single person reaches a point in their career where they realize my biggest problems are communication and sales problems.
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How many businesses die simply because the entrepreneur has a great idea, but they can't communicate it so that people say, yes, I get it. I need it. How many people are going to dinner parties and trying to explain to their friends and family and potential customers what they do, but people just don't get it. It makes you question yourself. You feel like maybe I am crazy. You're not crazy though. You just need to get better at communicating it, at selling the idea.
04:16
Or maybe my product is not as good as I thought it was. Yeah, exactly. Could be brilliant. It actually is as good as you thought. You just need to say it better. Right. And we're not only selling business, but what about personal relationships? I mean, you had to sell yourself to your wife and say, hey, I'm a good enough guy for you to marry and spend the rest of your life with. That's the beautiful thing about relationships, that people don't look at them at sales because they're in love.
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And if you are in love, selling comes naturally. When you love your customers, you don't think of it as selling, you think of it as trying to help them. Why would you not sell them something if you genuinely love them and want to solve their problem? Why would I not get down on one knee and ask my wife to marry me if I love her? I don't think of it as a sales problem if there is love involved. I have never heard of it being put like that. That is so...
05:15
So because you love your customer, you are helping them with whatever service or product you have, and you know that it's going to benefit them and bring them whatever end result or outcome that they aspire to. Of course, absolutely. That is so, so powerful. Now, you were the marketing manager of Power Selling Pros. How were you then moved to
05:43
the top position, which is CEO. I asked for it. Excuse me, what? Say that again. I literally asked for it. I asked the owner to make me the CEO. Do people do that generally or this is usually a unique experience? I don't know what anybody else does. I don't know how it works. Wow. I used to think the board of directors appoints you and then you're the CEO. This is amazing. Tell us more about your story. This was last year, beginning of the summer.
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2022. And I had a vision for the future of the company. I had a direction I thought we could go, ways that I believed we could grow and realize our potential. And I believed that I was the best man to help us get there. It's funny, actually, I was on the phone with a consultant of our company one day. And I jokingly, as we were discussing some of our plans and vision and ideas for the future, I jokingly said, gosh, I should just become CEO.
06:41
thinking that would make implementation more straightforward on these things. And he goes, you should. You definitely should. And I go, I can't just become the CEO though. He says, why not? So I go, all right, how would I do that? We went back and forth for a couple of weeks on a plan. So I wrote this nine page narrative plan for the future of the company. It involved me becoming CEO and several other things. And I sent it to the owner, the founder of the business, Brigham.
07:10
and said, hey, Brigham, here's my plan for the future of PowerSling Pros. It involves me becoming CEO. Let me know what you think. At that point I knew, I mean, they're gonna become CEO or I guess there's a possibility I just stay put. Like he says, no, we just carry on with our lives or like the audacity, right? And I get fired. I trust Brigham I have a good relationship. That's usually what most of us would be afraid of, the third option. Yeah, we had a good relationship. So I don't think I was actually too worried about that part.
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Worst case is I show him how passionate and serious I am about the future of this business, right? Right, right. And sure enough, we talk, we discuss several parts of the plan and we discuss how this will affect the team and other stakeholders, you know, his family, obviously, because he owns this business. It only took a couple of weeks after that for us to announce it to the company and make it official that I was CEO. Congratulations. You just took the step to ask for it.
08:08
So it wasn't advertised on the company board. And a lot of people not only would not have the courage to do so, but how did you have the confidence to think, wait a minute, I am a visionary. I see where I can take the company. Let me put this proposal forward to the owner of the company. Cause a lot of us, no matter how over-qualified we may seem on paper, we usually don't have the confidence to take that step.
08:38
The fact that you asked that question, and also when we talk about sales, right? It's funny to me because at the time I didn't think of it as a confidence thing. I didn't think I have the confidence task force. I genuinely believe that if you love the thing you're doing and you care deeply, like you have a genuine care for the organization or for the people, you do what you believe is best. You're not thinking to yourself, I need to muster the confidence or I need to sell this.
09:07
You just put your best foot forward because you have a passion for it and you do it. When I need to go confront my wife on like an argument we had and I need to apologize, I'm not thinking I need the confidence to go and have this conversation. No, it's driven by love, right? It's driven by a sincere, real desire to go and make a difference. Bernadette Joua, if you've ever heard of her, she's absolutely brilliant. Seth Godin calls her the Donnie of storytelling. Oh, she's amazing.
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And she says, you don't need to be smart enough to manipulate people. You need to be sincere enough to move them. Sincere to not manipulation. That's right. That's kind of my mantra now. It's not about the confidence of the chutzpah or the being smart enough. It's just, do I care? Am I sincere in what I'm about to do? Cause if I really genuinely care and I'm actually sincere, people can feel that.
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People can feel when you really mean it versus when you're trying to pull the wool over their eyes and sell. Just be a good smooth talker and getting to the end, which is the sale. So they can feel that this person genuinely cares about me. Of course. Absolutely. And my problem. I believe so. So when you were sending this proposal to say, hey, big guy, I'm actually visioning myself being here and taking the company forward.
10:34
What were some of the key factors that you mentioned that you feel resonated with him to say, maybe Zach really is the man for the job? Yeah, that's a great question, actually. I don't know if I've ever answered it succinctly, but one of the key parts I believe was understanding what the role of the CEO is not and communicating that to him. Because naturally, when we think of the CEO, we think of the man.
11:03
Right? It is the top spot. But in reality, he still owns the company. It's his business. I work for him. He could fire me at any moment. And that was a key part of the conversation afterward was I'm the CEO, which means I'll make the decisions and decide what the best way to run the company is. But you still own it. Right. Your company. I ultimately report to you.
11:30
Just like the CEO of a company like Disney reports to the board. Bob Iger makes the decisions at Disney, but he's accountable to somebody too. And that was a key part, I think of the whole conversation was that you still own it, it's still your business. I just believe that I can make decisions at this point in this role that affect everybody else. So knowing what it is as well as what it is not, I think puts people's minds at ease. Right.
11:56
And how did your previous experience of qualifications come into play in thinking, this whole package is going to be convincing enough for him to realize I can't do the job. I'm not afraid to ask for help. I'm not afraid to seek out people who are smarter than, than me or than us collectively. One of the first things I did after I became CEO was join a mastermind group, you know, invest in getting into a room with smarter people. Right. I learned the importance of that last year, right before I became CEO.
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literally a month or two beforehand, I went to a conference here in Utah that was brilliantly done and there were so many smart, sincere, ambitious people there. And I thought, wow, you don't realize how dead you are inside till you get yourself in a room with people who are alive. Wow. I discovered the importance of getting yourself into rooms with people who can help you. If you're the smartest person in the room, you need to get into a different room. The smartest person in your friend's circle.
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find new friends. Yeah, that's concerning. Like you should, especially my age, right? I'm 28 years old. If I'm the smartest person in the room, I am putting myself in like not good rooms. And that's the beauty of this economy, right? Is I think that with how connected everything is, there is opportunities to start a business, to run a successful company, to be a CEO when you're much younger than you used to be, when it was purely brick and mortar style businesses. Now,
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There's opportunities for people of all ages, literally teenagers, to successfully run and operate companies if, I believe, if you can surround yourself with people that are able to keep you grounded and humbled. But one of the recent promotions we made at our company was there's a girl who works at our company who's extremely confident, straightforward when she speaks and helps me really think through the decisions I'm making. She can humble me and keep me grounded as well. So recently promoted her.
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And I think my willingness to do that is honestly the thing that qualifies me best, I believe, because my decisions are rarely going to be coming from my internal echo chamber, where it's just my thoughts circling around. At least I hope so. That is very important because you know how sometimes, especially when we do leadership coaching, you find that some of the leaders out there struggle with the idea that someone who's a subordinate...
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might have an idea that they didn't think of or better than what they thought. And therefore they think it exposes them in a sense. Totally. Yeah. Have you heard of Trust and Inspire? The book? I've heard of it, but I haven't read it yet. Yeah. I'm slowly listening to the audio book. Like I, you know, like, oh, I'm going to listen. Yeah. But Stephen R. Covey wrote it. The son of the late Stephen R. Covey. Yeah. Seven habits. Yeah. So his son wrote this book.
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And it's all about the shift from command and control to trust and inspire. Command and control management and leadership being the decisions come from the top and go down, trust and inspire being the flip version, which is let the people who have the information who are there every day doing the work make the decisions. This is why communication is so important. This is why it's so crucial we teach people these skills. Cause if we're serious about relinquishing control to the people.
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have the most information, we need to train them to be able to communicate what they're seeing and what they're deciding to us, which again, typically is a skill we reserve for the people at the top. Right. Everybody needs it. That trust and inspire model. Do you see how when you say you give the power to the people who are on the ground dealing with the customers, how would you explain that panning out in the customer relations model?
15:46
I underestimated the power of inertia, I think, when I first started trying it. The thing that I have found to be extremely fascinating in a leadership role, and by the way, I am not a leadership expert. We are learning. But the thing that I have found very fascinating being in that type of position is that people, and you learn this in sales especially too, people are wonderful at talking about what they will do.
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I will get in shape. I will increase my close rate by 10%. I will make this proposal to my boss. But then when the moment of action comes, there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of hesitation. And people are generally much, not just a little bit, but much less likely to actually do what they said. Perfect example, you're talking to a friend who is always complaining about getting in shape. I need to lose weight, I need to lose weight, I need to get in shape, I need to get in shape.
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So you're like, dude, this guy's serious about it, right? He keeps talking about it. You get your friend to gym membership. What does your friend think? So what, you think I'm fat? Like, no, I thought we'd been having these conversations for like literally weeks. We joked around, like we should go work out together. Hey man, we should really do this. We should work out together. We keep saying this stuff and now I'm taking action. I'm doing something. I literally got us a membership. And I'm.
17:07
Helping you, you know how sometimes you come with all the best intentions and it backfires when you're the friend signing up for the June push. Yeah, I found this to be true in customer relations, in sales, and working with a team. You have to take things that people say they will do with a large grain of salt because people love to talk about what we say we will do. We're natural complainers as people. It's our default state. But when it's
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time to actually take action, this is why you need to be a great communicator, a great storyteller, because even if people have said, I will do this, they won't. Once the opportunity presents itself, they will find an excuse not to, unless you can sell them essentially. Right. And therefore, when you're in customer service, what are some of the qualities do you need to have in order to give the customers the best experience?
18:04
Because like you said, you're the face of the company. That's right. We teach eight principles at PowerSlim Pros. Eight principles that you need to embody in every customer interaction. It's more important than a script because customers don't follow script. You might give all of your people scripting, but you know, your customer's not sitting over there like, okay, so we're on this part of the script, right?
18:25
But as a customer, doesn't it sometimes feel like that? You know, when if I have a problem that is slightly off the script and they keep reciting to me, I'm like, no, no, no, I hear what you're saying. But ma'am, our company policies, I say, I hear that. But my problem is specifically this. So it's almost like companies train them not to vary from the script if the problem is a little different. Am I right? Yeah, it's a huge problem. The companies should not be doing that.
18:53
Uh, scripting is hurting your people. It's hurting their morale. You want to bring out the greatness in people. But, and the way to do that is not to script them or make, turn them into robots. I always tell companies, if you're just going to script the whole thing, the tools are already in existence for you to just automate the experience, right? We have AI, we have chat bots, we have forms, we have the dial tree. AI can answer your phones for you. So if you want it to be a robotic experience, you can literally put a robot on it. So you don't need people.
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You don't, like it's not that that day is coming, that day is here. Right. But most people would agree, you don't actually want the robotic experience. So ditch the scripting, light it on fire, toss it in the waste bin, the office style. Remember that office episode when Dwight like lights a fire and you're like, okay, let's throw your scripts in there. Yeah. You just set up. Like your sales class at the beginning, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, ditch the scripts. Right.
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Embrace a set of principles. Specifically, the eight principles are, be positive, be confident, listen to the customer, show them that you care, reassure them by focusing on what you can do, ask for their business, build value before price, and express gratitude. Those eight things. There's a million different ways to do them. There's a hundred different ways to show a customer you're listening to them. There's a hundred different ways to build value or show empathy.
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It's not one script, it's a framework of principles, of foundational customer service fundamentals that you can apply again and again and again and again in an infinite number of ways to serve the customer. I've heard some customer service and salespeople show empathy by saying, wow, that's super exciting that you're remodeling your kitchen. And I've heard others say, oh, the garbage disposal, you never know how much you need it till it goes out, right? When a customer's garbage disposal is broken. And I always joke, do you think her script said,
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No, that's not in the script for sure. You never know how much you need them until they go out. It did not say that. That's her. That's her being herself and showing empathy. So you've got to bring the human element to the job. That's right. You got it. And so don't you think, and I'm speaking now for the customer service consultants, don't you think they have this fear that their calls are being recorded and maybe they should stick to the script?
21:19
Of course, if that's what they're expected to do, if that's what they believe their job is, but if you can change their mind about that and show them your job is to serve customers, it's to take care of people. Specifically, we teach our customers that your job is to book the job and wow the customer. Those are the things we wanna hear on the phone. That's what we're gonna hold you accountable to. We're not gonna hold you accountable to a script. Yes, we're listening to your calls, but we're not listening for scripting. We're listening for experience and outcome.
21:49
Did you book it? That's the outcome. And did you wow them? That's the experience. If you did those two things, forget about the script. Who cares? Yeah, because here's the thing. We love buying, but we don't wanna be sold to. So a salesperson now has this dilemma that they don't wanna sound salesy because that's when we run away and cross the street, but we still wanna buy because we need the thing or we need the service to solve our problem.
22:18
Where is that missing link? What is going on there? If you come, Zach, and you say, Roberta, you did, that's when I run away from you and I block you on social media because Zach is salesy. I like to say that customers do not buy from the best companies. They buy from the companies who understand them best. For example, there's this guy named Ben Settle, and he tells a story about living in Southern Utah.
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riding his bike all the time. And in Southern Utah, there's these annoying little thorns all over the ground that can get into your bike tires and deflate them. So he gets a thorn in his tire, takes it into the bike shop to have it fixed. And the bike shop guy says, sure, no problem. Patches it up and fixes it. The problem happens again, a couple of days later. Goes back in. And this time there's a different guy who's like, you know, I could prevent this problem from happening in the future with this.
23:16
particular sealant that I can put on the tube and a different tire that will prevent these things from getting in in the first place. It's a bit more expensive, but how would you like me to prevent this from happening in the future?" And Ben goes, yeah, of course. I don't want this headache again. Why didn't the first guy sell me that? Why did he do the bare minimum and just try to fix it? It's because the first guy was afraid. He didn't want to be pushy. Salesy. Yeah, he didn't want to be salesy. What he didn't realize is...
23:45
If the customer feels like you understand exactly what they're going through and how it's affecting them, and you can show I have the perfect thing, who is it for and what's it for, then you have permission to sell. You have permission to sell me something because I feel understood. If you were describing a problem and someone who you trust, who you know understands exactly what you're going through, said, I have a solution, would you not want to hear the solution?
24:14
Of course. Who likes problems? Absolutely. The only time we don't want to hear the solution is when we don't feel understood. If I don't feel like you get me, then I'll question it. This applies to everything from medicine to buying tires for your bicycle. When you go to the doctor, you want to feel like the doctor really knows what's going on. If you rush to a diagnosis, you're like, I don't know. I don't feel like I really communicated everything well enough.
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that they understand exactly what I'm going through. That's what's the disconnect between those two ideas. It's how well you understand the customer and can make them feel understood. If you can close that gap, then you have permission to sell anything you want. People want solutions to their problems. They're not gonna say no if they feel like you get them. Is that the emotional part we know when they're talking about storytelling? And they say, okay, Zach.
25:11
You're going to talk to us in a minute about your coaching program on storytelling of entrepreneurs. So if you are selling your product, if you don't make me feel, they always say tap into the emotions of the customer. That's when they're going to feel that, you know what, because of how this person makes me feel and they can relate to me. And now I'm going to buy that product. Is that part of it? And also I'd like you to elaborate more on that coaching program that you embark on.
25:40
Yeah, you're exactly right. The question that people always ask is, how do I sell? How do I show the customer that I'm listening? How do I show them empathy? Those are the wrong questions to ask though. It's not how do I sell? It's why do people buy? Why would this person make a purchase? It's not how do I show them I'm listening? It's how do I make them feel heard? You have to flip all of your questions and frame them in terms of the customer's experience.
26:09
Again, not how do I sell, why do they buy? Not how do I show I'm listening? What will make them feel heard? Those are the questions we wanna ask. It's empathy driven. Once you start to phrase it that way, now the answers become so much clearer and you can make that emotional connection with people. They will feel heard, feel confident moving forward if you feel like you understand them. So now they're ready to do something. All that's left for you to do is make a logical pitch, a logical argument for why they should buy the thing.
26:38
why they should take action. That way they can explain it to their friends when they do. Right. Like you said, also you can explain to your wife why you purchased something so that she doesn't fight you on it, on why you spent the family budget. So talk to us about the work you do with entrepreneurs on storytelling. Yeah, I work with entrepreneurs who are dying to be more understood. Entrepreneurs who, for one reason or another, just can't quite get the message across to people.
27:07
As to give you an example, I'm working with an accountant right now. There's tons of accountants out there. There's, you know, a hundred new accountants starting accounting practices every day. How do you stand out in a market like that? So I help entrepreneurs do three things. Number one, identify the emotional theme of their work. So how do people feel when they work with you and it's a success? Not how do people feel when they get their accounting done?
27:35
But how do they feel when you do it? And it's a process of discovery where we tell all of their best stories from their upbringing and careers, because when we do that, we identify that there's an emotional theme that attaches itself to all of your best moments. I could go back to the last 20 years and we could tell stories from your whole life and career, and you will find that there's an emotional theme that reappears over and over and over again in your life. It's...
28:02
Beautiful work. It's so fascinating because when I do this with people, they realize, wow, you're right. That's been a common thread in all of my best moments. So we start by identifying what that common thread is. Then we structure their origin story. We answer the question, where did you get your superpowers from? Why are you doing the thing that you're doing right now? And we make sure to include that common thread, that emotional theme into it.
28:30
so that now you're telling a story that's uniquely you and you're communicating a feeling that is uniquely you. And that combination together attracts the people you want to serve. The people who hear your story and go, yes, I can see myself in it and who feel the way that you want them to feel. As another example, I work with a guy who has an Airbnb management company. Right. And the emotional theme that we found in all of his best moments is this theme of
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taking back control for people who have lost it, for families who have lost the ability to support themselves because of illness, or who have lost control because they're working for a boss that doesn't care about them. When life feels like it's getting out of your control, this guy who I'm working with, he helps you get back control. That's where his Airbnb company naturally fits in because helping people start an Airbnb is a way of taking back control of your life, but developing income.
29:27
And that theme, that emotional current is very different from, I help you take back control of your life is a very different feeling from, I help you start an Airbnb. You see the difference between those two things. Yeah. That's what we try. Taking control is very personal. That's a great way to put it. Yes. Your origin story, your strategic story as an entrepreneur makes what you do personal to the people you wish to serve.
29:53
If you just position yourself as, I am an accountant, I am an Airbnb management company, I am a customer service training business, I have a software company for recruiters, get in line. How many other people did you say? There's 10 million others, yes. What makes you different from everyone else? You make it personal by structuring and articulating your story so that people see the bigger reason why you're doing it.
30:21
And those people who share the same belief with you that I need to take back control of my life, or in this accountant's case, it's that there is a way to balance out the risk and the reward. In all of his life, there had been this common thread where he felt like it was all or nothing. And so many people do. So many entrepreneurs believe it's all or nothing. You have to quit your job and go all in, or you'll never build your business. And he'd grown up with that false belief his whole life.
30:49
So he built this accounting practice on the idea that you can pursue growth and mitigate risk at the same time. It's not an either or question. People who want that, who share that belief that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, he is the accountant for them. That's what I do. Because it resonates with them because of his story. Yeah. Anybody who also has grown up believing it's got to be all or nothing and how trapped that makes you feel, they hear his story and go,
31:19
Yes, like I feel the same way. That's how I feel. You've described my emotional state. Those people, he's the only option for them. Right. So it's a good thing then to allow yourself to be vulnerable and tell your story because here's the thing. I'm 47. I come from the generation of listening to Zig Ziglar, Tony Robbins, Brian Tracy. They sounded almost like superheroes. Now you've got Batman and everybody at the time because
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when you listen to them, we didn't know the story behind them. It's almost like they were just born to do this. It's great when you listen, but you think to yourself, you cannot really relate to them. It's almost like they are not part of your world, but they're saying great things that you should do to change your life, but you really cannot relate. I feel like now we are so connected that entrepreneurs really need to tell their story for people to relate and say, hey, wait a minute, you get me because you've been here. Exactly.
32:18
You got it. I'm gonna set it better myself. Right. Zac, before you go, anything that I haven't asked you that you feel like I should have asked you, you wanted to share with our listeners today? We covered some great stuff. The only last thing I would add is it's easy to, in the world of communication, to feel like I just need the perfect formula. I just need the perfect script. Like we talked about. Someone give me the step-by-step approach, the copy and paste template.
32:47
And if you feel that way, if you think that that's what you need to be successful, I'm here to tell you that you're wrong. You don't need that. You need to bring out the greatness in your voice. You need to identify what is unique about you. That's what people want to hear. People don't want to hear a canned copy and paste script. In the age of the internet, once a canned copy and paste script gets out, you see it everywhere. And once the template reappears- Everybody sounds exactly the same on the internet.
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like, oh, I know where this is going. Or I know how this funnel is going to work. Or oh, I know how this message plays out. We don't need another person to follow the script. We need you. We need your unique voice and perspective on the matter. If you love what you're doing, if you love the people you're doing it for, and you care deeply, and you're sincere about the message you want to get across, that's all you need. Those are the ingredients. Everything else is just helping you refine and optimize it and make it a little bit better.
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Words of wisdom from Zac Garside, the CEO of Power Selling Pros, founder of the storytelling habit and also known as the Michael Jordan of storytelling. Thank you so much, Zac, for taking your time to be on the show today. My absolute pleasure. Thank you so very much. And before you go, where can we find you if we want to know more about the work that you do and learning so much more about selling? Just go to ZacGarside.com.
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z-a-c-g-a-r-s-i-d-e dot com. I have all kinds of free gifts. I give people who find me on podcasts over there. Yes, we love free gifts and Zac is the Zach without the H, Z-A-C. That's right, just Z-A-C like Zac I've heard. Excellent stuff. That was Zac Garside. Thank you so much Zac for being on the show. Don't forget to subscribe, give a rating and a review and we'll be with you next time.