Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. And by the end of this episode, please remember to subscribe, give a rating and a review. Now, all of us have realized what is happening right now with regards to the great resignation. You have concepts such as quiet quitting. Dr. David Blake.
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the Chief Engagement Officer for Building Forward Now is here to share more insights about those. So before I go any further, please help me welcome Dr. Dave. Hello. Hi, Roberta. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being on the show. As I mentioned, you have such interesting insights on all that's going on, especially since the pandemic. I'm 46, so it looks like our generation had a bit of a different power grab when it comes to employer-employee relations.
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I think the pandemic caused a lot of us to sort of re-envision what's important to us. Many people suffered a lot of loss during the pandemic, and they had time to reconsider what's important, what they really want to do. And a lot of them started with their job. And I think they began to think about, is this really how I wanted to find myself for the next five, 10, 15 years? The bulk of people I deal with, oddly enough, are around 45 to 55. So you would think they would be stable in their job.
01:28
Quite the contrary, what I'm seeing is, and especially people coming into the generational groups, that's not the case. They're looking for more meaning in the work they do. And speaking of stability, that's the first thing that the pandemic kicked out of the door this whole, oh, my job is stable. I'll be here till retirement. Correct. I saw it over and over again in people that had been with companies 19, 20, 25 years.
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The work just simply wasn't there, especially in industries that are vulnerable. We knew retail, we knew food service, hospitality, but we also know I have a lot of colleagues that lost jobs during the pandemic because the organization just simply didn't have the work to perform. It doesn't mean the organization didn't want to hold onto people, but it was financially impossible to do that. And none of us were prepared for this. Whoever thought 10 years ago, five years ago, that at some point in time, we'd actually shut the entire economy down and all go home and look at a screen every day.
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So it did cause people to reevaluate. They looked at the loyalties, right? And they realized, gee whiz, I could be let go in a moment's notice. It isn't the day of my dad's generation where you came in and started at the job at 25 and you retired at 65 and you gotta go watch. It's different. Employees move more frequently now. Employees to your point, I think are scared to move right now because of the uncertainty in the market. Some people, as you mentioned, are resulting in this phenomenon called quiet quitting, which I think is a bad name
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quitting the job, what they're doing is they're saying, I'm not gonna take on the job of three people or two people or another person unless you compensate me properly. You know, people have job descriptions, they were hired to do a job. And because companies have not really recovered completely from the pandemic, they're trying to accomplish the same work with less people. And you don't do more with less, you do less with less. And so...
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People today, especially younger people coming into the workforce, and I would also argue people in their 40s and 50s who suffered loss, they might have lost a mom, a dad, a grandparent, maybe even a child or a spouse, they're re-envisioning what's important to them. So going every day, Monday through Friday, eight to five, Monday through Friday, and sitting in a cubicle is not what people are doing. And they're going to their leaders and saying, it's gotta be different. And we know that, we know that disengagement of employees
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2021 and 2022 according to the Gallup engagement survey. So we know employees are not happy. You know, the data's there and to fight that, I think it's kind of a fool's errand, but a lot of people in my generation are saying, come to work, get a check, go home, be happy. And that is not what people are doing today. I'll tell you, it's not what I'm doing. I've refocused my life to say, here's what makes me happy. I get it, you have to pay the bills and that's okay. But at the same time, you want meaning and purpose and you wanna work for people that are helping you achieve that.
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In addition to meaning and purpose, when we talk about soft skills, you want to be still seen as a human. Yes, being employee and a job description comes first, but you still want to be treated as a human being. You still want your boss, when they hand over whatever project tasks you have to do, to actually not just dump the papers on top of your head or your face and walk away.
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from your cubicle, but to still treat you as a human being. Yeah, absolutely. I'll give you a perfect example. I have a young CEO, probably 31, 32 years old, very successful company. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's brilliant. And in the medical device industry, one of the things he does, it's a subtle thing. He does not put his title under his name. He has to put CEO or a lot of initials or anything else. And I asked him about that one time.
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He says, because I want people to know me by my name, not by my title. Wow. Another CEO that I'm working with, same thing, medical device kind of been to see a startup. The first time I went in to meet him, what I thought was interesting, this individual is brilliant, PhD, MD, very smart, graduated Harvard. You know, he's got all the credentials. When I sat down at his desk, his pictures of his children all faced out. And so I asked him, I said, well, that's interesting. I get to see your family. They're all great kids. And we were just talking. Why don't they face you?
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Most people go into their office, right? Yeah, so you can look at your own kids, yeah. You said, because I want people to know about me. I think that's where people are coming from today. It's less about title and job description and all those things that my generation lived for. We would introduce ourselves by saying, hi, I'm so and so and my job is X. Today, we just introduce ourselves by our name, right? And so I love the CEO. Nobody uses titles in the organ. They have titles, but they don't put them on their emails. You know who they are.
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but he wants to break down that barrier that this message came from. Now, don't get me wrong, people know who the CEO is, but it's subtle changes like that that are shifting the way we look at the institution to create more of a flat institution as opposed to a hierarchy. Thank goodness, I think it's dead. Some people still fight me on that, but I'll say all the evidence around us tell us that's not where people work anymore. They wanna be collaborative, they wanna be in teams.
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There's even theories out there about leaderless teams, teams that just function without a leader. Obviously they require a greater degree of sophistication of the team and obviously very self-motivated team. But a lot of teams that get into product development, engineering design, some of the really high tech stuff, you're dealing with people that are all brilliant, they can really operate independently. So sometimes there's this idea that we don't really need a leader. Tomorrow we need to talk to the marketing person, but today we need to talk to the R&D person.
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And so I think you do see some of that shifting. I think it's exciting. I'm not panicked over at all. I think it's a wonderful thing. And I think the future looks bright. Obviously we've been through a lot and now we're asking them to really re-envision how their employees work. The fact that it's been proven in surveys, it's not like you and I are making this up. Correct, right, right. This information has come to their attention as well. That this is how employees feel. What is it that as a leader, now that this has come to their attention, what should they do?
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That's a great question. It's probably the most simple, easy, cost effect doesn't cost you a dime, is sit down with your employees and ask them, what's important from you, from me? Traditionally, that question is just the opposite, right? The employee asks the manager, what do you want me to do? I'm arguing you need to switch that. First of all, I go back to this humility argument that sometimes that's a great way to connect with people. Look, I recognize the world of work is different and I can't give you everything you may want, but be open with me about
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how would you like to design our work? And to the degree you can do it, do it. I'm not arguing everybody needs to be virtual or hybrid. Let's face it, if you work in a manufacturing place, you need to be on a production floor. Of course. They might say, well, we want more transparency or we want more time with you or fill in the blank. The challenge with that is if they tell you, are you ready to act on it? It's like employee surveys. You either love them or you hate them. You send them out to everybody. Everybody tells you the things they like and don't like, and then you never hear a peep after that.
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So if you're gonna sit out with your employees and say, tell me what you want. Tell me what's important to you to make this job more fulfilling. Tell me what's important to you as a individual human being. What are you looking for? And a lot of times they're not always gonna say, I want more money. They're gonna say things like, you know what? I could use a little more development. I'd like to go to a conference once a year, or I'd like more one-on-one time, or I'd like an opportunity to run a project. Don't cost you anything. But until you're willing to...
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switch the table from you telling them what you as a leader want to let me as the workers tell you. It's a vulnerable position to be. Don't get me wrong. For some leaders, like, are you kidding me? Let the prisoners have the keys? And I'm like, trust me, once you start doing it, you'll find leadership to be a heck of a lot more fun. Because now, instead of dealing with people who are curmudgeonly, if there's a problem, engage people in the problem, bring them into the solution.
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there's a problem. So you don't have to carry it by yourself and feel like I must come up with the solution by myself. Yeah. It's like I have to take it all on. No, you don't. What do you think all these people are and they're telling you let me help you. It's vulnerable but I think being vulnerable is one of the greatest strengths of any leader. That's right but that's the part that's scary for them as well because there's a sense of if I'm a leader I should show that I know all the answers. We have work to do. Correct.
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people like coach, I say, here's what I do. I'm gonna give you a homework assignment. So I'm gonna talk like you're geeky academic. I want you to try it once. I want you to get with one person who you really trust, you're comfortable with one of your employees and ask them, what is something I can do to make your work environment more fulfilling? And then come back to me and tell me what they said and tell me how you feel. And then we can work through that. But until you, it's one of those things like, yeah, I wish I had that magic wand. Say, take this pill, you'll be so comfortable with change. But I don't. You've gotta be willing to at least ride.
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And if it doesn't work, come tell me and I'll say, okay, let's talk about what may have failed in that process. But over and over again, when I work with people, I find that once they're willing to try it, it's like anything would change. When I was growing up, I didn't like broccoli. It's like, I can't stand it. And my wife actually makes a really good, she broils it in the oven a little bit, puts some garlic on it. It's like, oh, I like broccoli. Actually, do you like it? Right, but I hadn't tried it. Leadership is like that. I'm not telling you it's gonna work every single time.
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But if you want to guarantee failure, do nothing. Oh, yes. My job as a coach a lot of times is to work with leaders to say, okay, let's put our foot in the water. I'm not telling you to dive in the pool, but are you willing to give it a shot? And if they say, yeah, I say, okay, let's crap what that might look like. I don't want people to be disingenuous. I want them to be themselves. I'll give you a perfect example. I have a leader I work with who I think is absolutely phenomenal, but EQ, emotional intelligence, emotional quotient, she always tells me I'm not warm and fuzzy. And I said, well, actually I think you are.
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but she always says, I'm not. I said, okay, I'll go with that. And she's a lawyer. So I always say, I will stipulate to your argument. I'll agree to it. But one thing she is very good at is writing. He's a gifted writer. And I always tell her, I said, well, have you ever thought about writing thanking cards? I said, you know, it's a lost art. Who gets thank you cards anymore? And so many years ago, I had a mentor of mine say that every leader should have a box of thank you cards. Just put them in your drawer. And when somebody does something,
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write a note, put it on their desk at the end of the day, and go home. Wow. So I had a leader, she's retired now, but she was the chancellor of the Seattle Community College District. She'd been there 40 years, worked her way up to be chancellor. And throughout her career, she wrote thank you notes to people all over the campuses. And when she retired, people came to that retirement with those thank you notes. Wow. Hundreds of them. I do it all the time with my folks. I run thank you notes.
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I told her that. I said, you're a great writer. You communicate beautifully. You're more awkward in the communication piece. Write it. And so she started doing it. Now everybody's talking about, you get a note from the dean? Did you get a note? So it's little things like that. And it costs you five bucks to buy a box of thank you cards. And it's an old school method. Right? Who writes a thank you card? E-cards on email and Facebook. That's so impersonal. Right. I just remember that it was a great experience watching when that colleague of mine retired.
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people came, what did they remember about her? The cards, that is amazing. How would you describe workplace culture and how do you advise your clients to create the right workplace culture? Yeah, I think there's a misnomer sometimes of people, someone's telling you, I can come in and fix your culture. I think it's a snake oil. I don't believe in that. Magic wand again. There's no pill, no magic wand.
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Culture is so deeply embedded in the organization and culture is why I always tell people it's the way we do things around here, right, wrong, or indifferent. That's how it goes. If you ask somebody, why do you do that? And they'll go, I don't know, we've been doing it forever. That's kind of who we are. That's like, okay. So what I try to talk with leaders is if they say, well, my culture is toxic, we need to change the culture. What would you do? I kind of jokingly say, well, I don't know. What do you want to do? Because at the end of the day, the leader defines ultimately the culture. If the leader wants the culture to be open, it's gonna be open.
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If the leader wants the culture to be transparent, it's gonna be transparent. I can work with you to help navigate certain ways to do that, but a consultant should never be asked to define the culture. I don't work there because if the leader doesn't take an active part in developing the culture, it's just not gonna work. One of the things I love working with is startups because a lot of times they will ask, can you help us set up the culture early? And I'm like, oh, thank goodness you're asking. Because it's so much easier to do it now. Then fix it later.
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Right, right. I do think it can make a huge difference in the organization, positive or negative. And by the way, you're going to have a culture whether you want it or not. And so my approach is it's going to evolve some way. If the leader involved in saying this is who we are and this is what we're about early, then you control the outcome. So don't just passively run through life and think it's going to fix itself out. No, it never will. It's a process. But the good news is...
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Once you begin to get inoculated, if you will, within the organization, it does become self-fulfilling. The leader's always like, oh gosh, I got more work to do. And I said, the most important thing you can ever do is establish the culture. Because once you do that, that's how your organization will function. Now back to the surveys. Sure. This great resignation. Did you find that a lot of people were able to disclose why they resigned so much? Yeah. At the exit interviews.
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cranky part of it. Most people when they exit the organization, what they're going to tell you is, I'm leaving because I'm getting more money or they're moving, but I'm getting more money. And I always laugh and say, well, who leaves to get less money? True. I mean, it's a very safe position to say, you want to come back, they won't be mad at you. But over and over again, if you peel the onion away and look at the real data, the number one reason people leave organizations is not money, it's bad leadership.
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So they're leaving the leader, they're not leaving the organization. And sometimes in exit service people will be very candid. I'm never coming back here so let me tell you all the things I don't like. You got to read through that too. But if everybody's just telling you they're leaving for more money, I'd be skeptical. I'd want to know more. If you got a department where your turnover is 20% and everybody else is 3%, I would argue money is not the issue. Oh, definitely. Yes. You got to look at that data.
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Good HR people can tease out the answer that they can get to the root cause, but your HR people have to be trusted too. People have to feel comfortable to talk to them in a way that it'll be protect their anonymity, but still be able to share that information. Right, because like you said, you don't wanna burn your bridges just in case it doesn't work out, and you probably want your job back in the future. Absolutely, so people will stay with companies where they feel they have coworkers that are their friends, where they have a work life.
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eight hours, nine hours a day, you're at work. It's a large portion of life. They might not wanna go to work every day, but they at least have better days than bad days. Right. They have a boss who is attentive to their needs. They enjoy working for their boss. Just ignoring that data and just saying it's a money issue. It's always gonna be a money issue. Again, you gotta peel back the onion. When we talk about the generations, right? We were the generation of...
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work as hard as you can, as many hours as possible to get the promotion, the success, the paycheck, the lifestyle, which now we define differently. That's why you could call us in the middle of the night and would wake up and do the job. Yeah, absolutely. I'll give you a perfect example. The city of Detroit defaulted on all of its pension payments, right? They went broke. And so all those people who spent their entire life working for the city of Detroit, the pension system went belly up.
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If you look at the steel industry, the automotive industry, you know, many people thought that they would work there forever. And then there were job cuts. Jobs were offshored. Younger people saw that and they said, guess what? They're not loyal to you anymore. The days of start here on day one, retired year 65, you get a gold watch and a pension. Those days are gone. Pensions are gone. I always tell people who gets pension anymore, right? It's all 401Ks, 403Bs, different type of retirement plans. And those all fluctuate to the market, right?
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Even companies that have old style pension plans, they produce those benefits dramatically over the years. You bring up a good point. Lifestyle is not about things. My generation was like, I got a house, I got a car, I got a boat, I'm gonna go on a vacation. No. Today, lifestyle is more about freedom. I want purpose, I want meaning. I wanna go to my kids' baseball game. I wanna go to story time at the senior center, whatever it is. It's not things anymore. I watch my own kids that way. My oldest is 40.
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My youngest was 30 and things are not what they look for. That's just not what makes them happy. That's why they don't have this, if they call me in the middle of the night, I'm gonna work weekends. I'm not gonna have a life outside of work. They don't want that. You and I were joking earlier, a lot of people nowadays and I started doing it. I find it amazingly refreshing. I turn my phone off every night at seven o'clock. It doesn't come back on to seven a.m. in the morning. The only people that can reach me are those people in my favorites list. And who's in my favorites list?
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My kids are family. Right, not my boss. And my boss knows that. I always told my boss, I was like, if you need me, get me before 7, 7 p.m. I encourage people to do that. You have to set boundaries. Here's another thing leaders do that I think drive people nuts. You tell your people all the time, go home and relax. I want you to have a good work-life balance. I want you to disconnect. And what does your boss do? Send emails on Saturday and Sunday. So what do you tell the employee? Well, you know, I'm carrying the cross. I'm working really hard.
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but you don't. What's the message to the employee? So I do not email anybody that works for me, any clients that I have, they will not hear anything from me from five o'clock Friday, just eight o'clock in the morning on Monday. I wanna respect that time. I don't wanna intrude in that time because some people, my generation, if I got an email from my boss on a Saturday afternoon and I saw it, guess what I would do? I'd answer it and I'd be mad about it. But you'll still do it. Right, so now I don't do it and I feel good.
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Yes. Because I'm doing what I want to do and I think the younger generation is even more adamant about that. I want purpose and my purpose isn't just the job. Trust me. I have yet to find something that you need to talk to me about on a Saturday at five o'clock. That cannot wait for Monday. Thank you. Exactly. That's my point. It's not just purpose. We have discussions on mental health, burnout, anxiety, panic attacks.
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We talk about this all the time, especially since the pandemic, just everywhere you go, there's always a discussion mental health related. And yet when it comes to acting on it, we don't because we go back to, yeah, call me on weekends and said, I have no life outside of work and then, Oh, but I'm burned out. Oh, but my mental health, why are we not acting on it? Even though we are aware that this is the cause.
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I think to some degree we're scared to address it. Mental health has always been an interesting issue. We talk about physical health all the time. You need to get rest, you need to get sleep, you need to exercise. We have whole culture around that. Give you an interesting statistic. I was working at a large research university and I was a head of HR. And we knew from the data from our student health center, so these are undergraduate students, that one in four students in college today has mental health issues that require some form of medication to manage.
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Now we can extrapolate that to say that probably 25% of the workforce today has a mental health issue that requires some sort of medication to manage. This was a few years ago, by the way. So I don't think it's less, if anything it's probably more. But I think supervisors are uncomfortable talking about the issue. And I hear that from people, I say, why don't we talk about, we all know it's a problem. It's like, well, you know, it's kind of awkward. I'm not saying ask people what their diagnosis is, but when we talk about how people feel, we're not just talking about
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their physical health, they have a fever or a cold or sore throat. So when you ask somebody, and I think this is an, we always ask people how they're doing. And the question I ask leaders is, do you really want the answer? Do we even wait to hear the answer? No, a lot of times we don't. It's fluff talk, right? How you doing? Finally, now you will pass with your papers. Silence is horrible. Everybody hates silence. So when somebody comes in and talks to me, I always say, how you doing? And I'll watch for the body language. Right? A lot of times it's not in the verbal brain as well. Yeah, I'm doing okay. Really? What's going on?
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And I think too, sometimes when the leader shows that they struggle with things, right? Hell, man, I'll tell you what, I had a rough weekend. My kids were upset, you know, sometimes sharing that you're not impervious to the same type of things they're dealing with. I guarantee you there are CEOs out there that suffer from anxiety, depression, bipolar, just go down the list. So I think having a common desire to understand where each party's coming from is helpful. I think the good news is there's more talk about it.
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and it's all come out of the pandemic because people got depressed at home. And people say, well, how you doing? And it's like, I gotta get out of this house. I'm going crazy. And so people formed these little support groups. A lot of businesses did virtual town halls during the shutdown, so they can kind of just check in on people. A monitor is not a really warm, fuzzy thing to deal with. No. Now I think it's more important than ever. Everybody's come back to work. I mean, the freeways are busy again. They might have hybrid schedules, but for the most part, we're back to work.
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And so what I'm advising leaders to do is take time to check on that, right? Get the team together. And it doesn't have to have a purpose. Just get together and talk. How are we doing? How are we feeling? The other day I met with a group that I hadn't met with in two and a half years. Why? Because we had not been together. So taking the time to assess the pulse of the group and how they're feeling, you need to be vulnerable. So, man, I'm glad we're back together. This is driving me crazy. I was really getting lonely. And I'm like, my boss can say it. I can say it. No, I don't want you to give me your diagnosis.
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But show the human side of you. Right, as soon as you're human. I mean, you know, it's like, if your kids brought that to you, wouldn't you say something like, you okay? It's not a parent-child relationship, but there is a positional relationship, right? I'm the boss, you're the... Right. So the ability to relate to them on an individual basis is critically important, right? Younger people today in the workforce are wanting that more and more. But I see it in old people that are in their 40s and 50s saying, I can't do this for another 10 years. When young people say, I can't do this...
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And I said, think about it, you're 25, you're gonna do this for 40 more years. So then we started talking about, well, what could I do to make it different, right? And sometimes that requires you to shift your focus from maybe even a different career. Right. You see a lot of career jumping. Different career. I'm glad you said that because, you know, usually when we talk about life purpose and finding what fulfills you, a lot of times people jump into the, oh, you want me to be a life coach? It's not always what we're referring to.
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But it just means the career that I'm in, does it resonate with me? Does it fulfill me? Is it the kind of work that brings me joy? Yes, it doesn't mean stop the job and go coaching. Now, let me give you a perfect example. I had a client of mine who was very successful life insurance salesman, made a lot of money at it. He reached out to me and he says, I hate being a life insurance salesman. And I said, well, why are you still doing it? And he was like 50, he goes, why make a lot of money at it? I said, well,
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sound horribly miserable about it." He goes, well, I am. I got like 15 more years. I said, what do you really want to do? He goes, I don't know. I said, well, I'll tell you what, you go back and think about it and you come back and talk to me about it, right? So he came back to me and he says, you know what I've always enjoyed doing? And I did it when I was in college. I write music. He says, I would write jingles for commercials. And I've actually had people, you know, small bands pick up my... I said, well, why can't you do that now? This is a lot of 50 years old. I said, who cares how old you are? They're buying your music.
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The music doesn't have an age restriction. That's it, right? And he says, well, you know, I do know somebody that's in the industry. I said, well, why don't you reach out to them? Just talk to them. I'm not saying quit your day job. Mm-mm, you still have a mortgage and kids. Sure, he's still selling life insurance, but he's found a balance, right? Every day can't be about fun and happiness, but we do need to find those elements of fun and happiness, right? We do have those things that still drive us. That's an excellent point. Don't quit your day job, but make sure there's balance in your life. You know, I have a friend of mine
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coaching his son's soccer team. And he said, that's what I wanted. I love doing that. Great, he does it after work. He does it on weekends. It brings him fulfillment. So when I asked him on Monday, how are you doing? Guess what he talks about? Soccer. Soccer team. Right. Exactly. So keep your insurance job, switch off your phone evening and weekends so that you do the jingles. Correct. And find something that's gonna give you joy. Find something that gives you joy. Right. So we're not seeing that turning a life around.
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turn it upside down and ruin everything. It'd be like, are you serious? No, because even I would say in my life, I've begun to transition more to those things that bring me partnership, but I'm also closer to retirement. So the beauty of retirement is guess what? I get to do what I want to do to some people. If I wanna work, I work, or I don't wanna work at all. But I think for a lot of people in their working years, they have to find that balance, right? They say, okay, I'm gonna go to my jobs, that pays the mortgage.
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But I always go back to what really makes you happy. And in this case, life insurance didn't, but writing music did. Right. So he has that work-life balance. Got a great balance. He's doing great. He's actually made a few bucks. He's not gonna be the next guy writing the next movie theme, but it's something he really enjoys doing that makes him happy. And Dr. David Blake, before you go, please give us last words of wisdom. Pause and take time to give people grace in today's work world.
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Everybody has huge struggles they're facing today, whether it's the economy, whether it's mental health, whether it's raising blended families, whether it's a single mom or a single dad. When you see your employees struggling, before you decide to, as I say, lower the hammer, take a moment to realize that they might be suffering from something you have no idea about. If you really wanna create a loyal employment workforce, sincerely ask them, is there something else going on that I might need to know about?
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that I can help you with. And I guarantee you, I can give a guarantee, that if you do those things, it's not going to guarantee people will stay forever, but it will definitely reduce the fact and people will remember you for that. They won't remember you for your performance reviews writing skills, but they'll remember the fact that you cared about them and I think that's critically important. Words of wisdom from Dr. Dave Blake.
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Thank you so much for being on the show today. This has been wonderful and very helpful. Great, Roberta. Thank you so much for having me as well. And before you go, we can find you on social media so we can continue this conversation. Absolutely. Hop on my buildingforwardnow.com is my website and you can Facebook me on the same building forward now and it will pop up as well. And I'm on LinkedIn under Dr. Dave Blake. Building forward now, Dr. Dave Blake, the HR professional and
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a great resignation specialist, as I call you. Great. Thank you, Roberto. Thank you very much for being on the show. My pleasure.