Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication and soft skills, this is the podcast for you. Today I am joined by Dr. Zakiya Akerele, who is a professor and an author. And she's here to share with us some of the painful lessons she had to learn after she graduated from a PhD that are mostly not taught in order to prepare you to enter the corporate market.
00:28
And before I go any further, please help me welcome Dr. Zakiya. Hello. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So just give us a little bit of background about yourself. Yes, I'm a professor in the humanities, primarily teach courses on world religions, philosophy. But I spent some time doing vocational counseling for students and ended up meeting with students who were having challenges in the job market, doing programming for those to teach them
00:58
how to navigate the job market. And so I ended up writing my book, a dump your degree, which helps them with higher education and how to choose careers that will give them the best return on the investment, but also how once they've graduated, how they can better work throughout the job market and getting themselves hired. Okay. So when I first saw the title of your book, dump your degree, I was a little taken aback. Yes.
01:28
what everybody strives for, what everybody feels like is the pinnacle of achievement. Why do you say dump your degree? Well, I'm glad that the title is working. I wanted something that would catch people's attention. And I know a lot of people say, well, you have four degrees. Why would you tell people to dump them? Basically, it is because the challenges I faced once I finished my doctorate degree during a recession in 2010.
01:56
I came out into a job market that was not favorable. I struggled to find employment, ended up having to move back home after being free, you know, for so many years through undergrad and grad school. And it really was a challenging time for me. And I recognized that my problem was, I was so focused on what I had achieved academically, my degrees and finding work in that industry that I was limiting myself from.
02:24
things that I could have been doing that were actually better for me and it's better served my career because it diversified my background and it diversified my experience, actually prepared me and taught me additional skills that were useful for my industry. So I basically tell people to dump their degree, meaning don't solely focus on the degree as the determining factor of where you go as far as your career.
02:49
So it's more figurative, not literal, but if you want to literally, if you want to literally dump it, that's fine. But it's basically looking at other things besides the degree. It sounds to me that you didn't have direction. You were not even aware that you needed those. Right. It's a problem that many people face. They just learn whatever the expertise the degree provides and not those additional soft skills and life skills. Not knowing, obviously that's not your fault.
03:18
But where do you think the missing link is? Is it missing at college and universities? Is it people just not even knowing they should get a mentor to start their corporate careers? Where's the missing link? I think it's missing a lot of pieces in a lot of different ways. One, of course, colleges and universities, they're businesses. They're there to provide a service, which is to educate you, to give you the knowledge that you are seeking. And that's in the form of whatever academic field.
03:48
Right? So yes, colleges and universities have career centers and things like that, but it's not mandatory to go to those and learn interviewing skills or what you need to do to develop yourself as a future employee. You can go or you don't have to, right? The main thing for you to be in higher education is to get the degree. So I think that colleges and universities could do more to prepare students for the workforce, making things that are a requirement for them to learn.
04:16
No, we're not taught how to negotiate salaries or how to interview within the curriculum. It's something supplemental that you can decide if you want to look into on your own. Also, parents, you have parents that may not know how to guide their child as far as what they should expect in higher education, what they should get out of it, and also to prepare them for their career.
04:40
So there's a disconnect and that could just be the student could be a first generation or they could just be in a different field or industry and have different career aspirations than their parents and their parents don't know how to guide them. And mentorship is not mandatory either to get a degree. That's something that you have to seek out on your own. There is a disconnect between what additional knowledge you need besides the degree that will help you when you're seeking employment later. So obviously it's not mandatory for you to go to the Career Center.
05:10
Right. And learn to sell yourself beyond, I have a PhD. Right. Exactly. Right. Which is kind of interesting for me because don't you write essays and sell yourself basically in order to enter university? Yeah, but you're selling yourself to enter university, right? You're selling yourself to say, I am capable of doing the academic work. It's not.
05:33
selling yourself for a career. Those are two different things. You know, you have people who are exceptional career professionals, entrepreneurs that didn't get an education, didn't have to write essays, but they learned how to market or brand or sell themselves in other ways. And those two things might not necessarily match. You know, when you're selling yourself for a job, it would be different. A lot of times that job, you know, one position is available. Whereas when you're selling yourself to get into university.
05:59
hundreds of applicants are accepted. So the competition is different as well. So there are many different layers to how do you sell yourself in the job market as opposed to entering higher education. And therefore, obviously we have this missing link now and some people, as you say, they are the first college graduates in their families. I've heard statistics in America, black women are the highest graduating percentage, and yet they are the...
06:27
highest percentage of a group that is swimming in student loan debt, which I'm not sure if politicians will ever scratch off. And also, but they enter the job market and they are the least paid, which means paying off these very student loans for this degree is going to be decades and decades long. Just run us through that. Yeah. So, you know, you have to look at different socioeconomic backgrounds of Black women versus the general population.
06:55
the disparities between income. So whereas Black women have to take out student loans more than their white counterparts because of the socioeconomic discrepancies and disparities. So that's already giving them a little bit of a setback when it comes to how they pay for higher education. And then the cycle kind of continues because like you mentioned, some, many may be first generation.
07:19
Or like myself, I was not a first generation. I'm actually third generation. My grandmother has a master's degree. My mother has a bachelor's degree, but they didn't have to get the student loans that I had to get because the cost of college went up significantly. Also, while my grandmother and I have the same alma mater for undergrad, my undergrad was pretty much paid for.
07:39
My graduate studies, I did get scholarship, but it was not enough because I went to some universities that were very pricey, very expensive in New York City. So I had to take out a substantial amount of student loans that my mother's college was completely paid for. So even if you take away factors of like first generation, just this current generation of millennials, Gen Z, college is way more expensive than it was in the past and it continues to rise. And then you have things like degree,
08:08
inflation where there's a diminishing value of degrees that people are getting. So there are so many factors. And then when you add things like gender and race into it, once they go into the job marketing, there's all these disparities already that they face. Yeah, it's just so many layers to it. And then not having the knowledge of how to negotiate salary, what they should expect it as far as salary is also a concern. So there are so many different dynamics. Speaking of the degrees.
08:38
Do you think that even though the highest graduating percentage, do you think that some of the degrees people study is just for the sake of having the piece of paper they don't even believe in or they don't even think, I'm really have a long-term career by choosing this. Sometimes I listen to people say, so why would you study that you don't even like it? Or you have no idea where it's going to take you after you graduate. I'm not going to pick any degrees and get sued, but you know what I mean? Yeah.
09:05
Well, you can pick on mine. Mine was a soft degree in religion, and it's like, what are you going to do? Now, I did it because it was a plan to go to law school. And that's definitely something, even as a professor in that field, I tell my students, take this as a humanities and an elective and leave it there. And they steal because they love my courses so much. They go and they change their major. And I'm like, no. But if you are going to change your major to something that's not have the best return on investment, I'm very honest.
09:33
This does not have the best return on the investment. Everybody else at university sometimes raise that up and say, you're rich for this. But carry on. Yeah. Because like I say, and I mentioned in the book, universities are businesses. They want your money and they're going to get it regardless. So if you graduate with debt, okay, they've been paid the student loan. People gave them their money. Now it's up to you after you graduate, what kind of career you going to do to pay that back?
10:03
The university has been paid. Okay. And I hate to say it like this, but it's just reality. So the return on the investment, if you sign up for this as a major, that's what they're going to teach. They have professors there that will teach it. As far as you having a lucrative career, you may not. And so many of them do that. And I was under the assumption that it would be easy. Oh yeah. As soon as I get the highest level of education in this field, I'll just, I'll be able to get a job as a professor. And what's the problem? There are plenty of jobs and they're not.
10:32
You know what I'm saying? So a lot of times it's just basically, like you said, the magic piece of paper. I have a degree, therefore I'm educated and I will be successful. Most students are not sat down by their parents or a mentor or what have you and say, okay, is this gonna give you the return that you need? And I'm all for following your dreams, following your passions. I believe in that wholeheartedly, but at the same time, I also want people to look at their goals, their future goals,
11:02
following their passion by paying for a higher education degree will match up to a career that gives them the money and the return that they need. Is college for everybody then? No, no, no, no. And you know, I meet with parents and students all the time. I've even had students who were in college, I mentioned kind of one or two in my book that neither one of them needed a degree. Both of them were already working within their passion and making a life out of it.
11:32
One was an artist and so he ended up finishing a degree, but he struggled. It wasn't right for him. And I'm like, why are you failing all these classes and wasting money to already be doing something you love? But it's because of the stigma that comes with, oh, if you don't have a degree, you're not successful, right? And then I had another student, I had several, but just the two that I can think that I mentioned in my book, another who her mother actually attended because I would do workshops for students. And sometimes parents would show up to get information.
12:01
And she was very passionate about entrepreneurship and was already very successful in her own right as an entrepreneur. And her mother was just like, can you advise her to stop all of this? You know, focus on this degree. Old school thinking. Yeah, of course. I think she might've been first generation college grad. So that meant a lot to the family. She did recently graduate, one of my mentees, but she's still headed to the road.
12:26
for entrepreneurship. So she could have saved time and money, but I'm sure that the degree will serve her in some way, but it was something she did not have passion for. So no, college is not for everybody. Yeah, it sounds to me, Reagan writes for parents most of the time. A lot of times. Which is a whole other discussion. So speaking of that, don't you think also that if you enter the job market or you follow your passion, just the two examples that you gave us instead of going to college.
12:53
That's when you learn these additional soft skills, life skills even quicker. Yes. Because you look academically focused. Exactly. And then you can do both, right? One thing about me, and I think that actually helped me throughout college for the most part, I did have a job in undergrad here and there, but mostly when I was in grad school, I was always employed, whether it was part-time or what have you, doing jobs that didn't necessarily match.
13:21
to my degree field, but they could relate in some way. So I was able to develop experience and skills and constantly be developing my CV so that once I graduated, I could kind of pull from that, even if it wasn't directly into getting a professor role. So I think getting the experience and also directly connected to the degree and outside of the degree can be very helpful. Or if you don't pursue a higher education.
13:48
then definitely get the experience. But a lot of times people say, well, you need the education to get the experience. You know, jobs are requiring degrees, which is true, but the unfortunate part about that is many jobs are requiring degrees that once did not require degrees and the pay is not shifting, the job roles are not shifting. It's just, they're adding an additional requirement, which is a degree in order to have a weeding out process. Oh, so it was a catch-22. But at the same time, there are also many jobs that don't require a degree. And.
14:17
One can go in a different direction, whether it be trade school, vocational school, certification programs. There are many jobs in tech in high paying industries that don't require a degree. And because we have this belief that college is the only route to that success, so many people overlook and there are so many jobs in these fields and there is a lack of individuals applying for it because everybody's focused on getting the white.
14:45
collar corporate job as opposed to going in a different direction. Do you think trade schools, vocational schools, they don't market themselves well enough to say what we offer, you can get paid as much or even higher than having the university degree, the conventional one. Yeah. I mentioned this in my book about how universities are now marketing in ways. I'm an older millennial, right? And I don't remember this type of marketing for universities before.
15:14
But now they're on buses, billboards, the internet, Instagram, like universities are marketing marketing. You're right. Maybe I'm not their target audience, but I don't see the marketing for trade schools like I do for universities. Which is weird to me because people just know universities exist and I don't know why they feel the need to market. And I think it's because we're seeing a lot of Gen Zers that are foregoing college that are saying, look, it's not right for me because so many of them now see entrepreneurship as a viable option.
15:42
And then I recently read an article where many of them are for going college because they see that trades are better. I actually did a coaching session with the young lady yesterday. She was 17, an honor student straight A. She says, I don't want to go to college. I am an artist. What did the parents feel about that? Her mother was very open and she was telling me thank you because she didn't know she was like, I tell her it's okay to go to trade school and my messing up her future. And I said, no, for what she wants. And because she already has clear direction.
16:11
We also talked about mentorship and we found two mentors who she could connect with in her industry. Even now, I said start working on that now even before you graduate because she's going to graduate this year. I said trade school is a very viable option for you because you already know what you want, you know what you don't want, and you know the direction in the path of what you how to get there. Trade school is wonderful and college will always be there. College is great for many things.
16:38
But if that's not your path, it's not your path. And she's already found ways to be very industrious in her field and start selling her art. And she had a clear head on her shoulders. So why would I send her to, you know, tell her, Hey, you must go to college and get a degree in something you have no passion or drive for. Earlier, you spoke about the job market when people say, Oh, the job market does need the piece of paper. Let's talk about internships. Okay. Because they said, Oh, if you don't have experience, then you need a piece of paper to get experience.
17:06
Let's talk about internships. Do they play a role in solving that problem and how? Yes, definitely. I tell people to get internships. I don't care if it's required. I have never in my academic career been required to have an internship. But I created my own opportunities, even if it wasn't technically an internship, but a role that matched in alignment, like I mentioned earlier, with my degrees or even outside. Because those open doors, one, it gives you experience.
17:35
but two, it actually opens your network. So once people see who you are, what you can do, your willingness to add value to them and also serve in whatever capacity, the opportunities are endless. They may know somebody who knows somebody. I stress internships in my book a lot because a lot of times when maybe a field doesn't require an internship, people just don't do them, but they should find a way to get their own internship, even outside of the school.
18:03
because it does give you the networking opportunities. And would you say in an internship, you learned the negotiation skills as well? I don't know. I mean, most of them are unpaid, although there are many that are paid. And I see a lot of conversation about that on LinkedIn, where people pay interns. And I think there's a push to do that more, which I believe at least a stipend, but I don't think it teaches.
18:29
much in regards to negotiations because I would hope that could happen, but I'm not sure about that. But you do learn how to work with people. Exactly. Graduation day. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. And I've seen my mentees get really good paying jobs through internships and get hired even before they graduate. So I stress that a lot. Yeah. Those I think personally, compared to universities and colleges don't market themselves enough.
18:56
or is it something that you must clearly seek out for? I think you have to look out for yourself. Don't expect a university or a professor or an advisor to look out for you at all. I think these are things you have to do your own researches, which is another thing I tell my mentees all the time. Do your own research. Don't just listen to your parents. That's the first chapter of the book. Don't listen to your parents. And I'm saying that in the sense of, I'm a mom myself. I want my children to listen to me, but.
19:24
Well, I mean it in the sense of they don't know everything. Don't expect just because someone has aged that they have the wisdom or knowledge in the particular area you're seeking to get involved in. So find it out on your own as well. So you've got the life skills when it comes to studying for your degree as well. Is the focus on doing the particular job that you studied for or when people graduate, do they say any job I get just to start paying off the student loans? I see most people doing.
19:53
the latter, what you said, I just need a job. And I mean, that was me, I was like, can somebody hire me? I don't care what it is, cause I'm tired of being unemployed. I think a lot of students, when they're still in school and they're looking forward to graduation, their focus is their industry, of course, until life hits them and they're like, okay, where's the job? I've applied for 500 jobs, I haven't heard back, cause somebody just hired me doing anything. And that's the thing, I don't want people to have to go through that.
20:20
So that's why I give them tips on what to do to prepare before you graduate. After you graduate, stop just sending out resumes because that's what everybody does in this AI technology, probably throwing it in the trash anyway. How do you now circumvent all of that and figure out a way to getting your foot in the door, the non-traditional way through your connections, through building relationships.
20:44
through reaching out to recruiters, how do you do that without just blindly throwing out resumes every day on Indeed? I think it's both. People are focused on their industry, but also once they get tired of getting rejections, they kind of open themselves up to just about anything. Speaking of AI and technology, I'm about to pick on particular degrees again. Do you feel like there's not much of a focus on the STEM degree and a lot of people go for humanities because they're here, so to speak? Especially women.
21:13
You see that more with us, more with particularly with African-Americans, there's a tendency to go through programs that are considered soft degrees and it's not as much of a focus on STEM. Is it not well marketed or they just not interested in general? I think there is a disconnect as far as the marketing aspect of it, like the knowledge behind it. I think there's a lot of push to get more women and people of color in STEM, but I think traditionally.
21:41
That's just basically what people have seen, right? They see people go and get, oh, a degree in psychology or, you know, one of the things I've seen, noticed a lot, especially at HBCU, criminal justice, sociology, those types of things. And I'm picking at myself, I have a minor in sociology, you know, all these soft degrees, and there's nothing wrong with it because you can do some really good things with it. I have a friend who went and got a bachelor's and master's in sociology and is doing amazing work in diversity and inclusion.
22:08
That's the thing, you have to figure out how to use the degrees in a different way. Yeah, because I think a lot of people get stuck and they're like, okay, well, now what do I do with this degree in philosophy? And there are tech moguls who have degrees in philosophy, but they didn't just get stuck in trying to stay in that field. They used it in a greater way. So that's the main thing. But yeah, I do think there should be more of us who are in hard areas like STEM. Because it sounds to me like it pays higher.
22:36
You know, post-student loans and obviously job market. Yes, very much in demand. So a few last words from you before we close. What are some other things that I might not have asked you?
22:48
Oh, goodness. I don't know what you might not have asked me. Yeah, I'm thinking of what I would want people to take away. Like I mentioned before, I'm glad that the title is grabbing people and they're having conversations around what it means to have a degree and how to use it in a way that it serves your career and not just focusing on the degree as something that opens the door for you. Like you open the door for yourself in whatever field.
23:15
figure out how you can use your skills, your connections, your talents, your drive, your passion, all of that in conjunction with the degree to create a career you enjoy. And my main takeaway that I want people to take away is I want them to have the ability to control their own careers. So many times people are like, oh, I need a job, I'm waiting on this call back. And I'm like, well, wait a minute, you just gonna sit there and wait? And this is me talking to my past self. Don't sit there and wait for somebody to call you.
23:41
You take charge, control your career. You have skills, talents. I don't care what you majored in. You have skills and you have talents that can be utilized, whether it's through freelancing, whether it's through consulting. Think about what it is you have to offer and how you can add value and then put it out there in the world. There is someone, there are some people or company or whatever that is willing to buy into your talent. So just take control and put your career in your own hands.
24:05
Put your career in your own hands. Yes. Dr Zakiya Akerele has been so informative. I hope anybody who's considering college, who's already in college, has graduated but don't know how to find a job, is going to listen to this and have a lot of takeaways to help them. Thank you. I hope so too. Thank you so much for your interesting title, dump your degree. Thank you. Very captivating. And before you go, please tell us where we can find you if we want more information.
24:35
Yes. My website is Zakiya Akerele.com and I'm on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook at Zakiya Akerele. And they can find my book on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Walmart, Books a Million. Most online retailers have my book, so they can go out and get it on any of those platforms. Thank you so much. Author of champion degree and professor who was here to share with us a lot of tips on how to make the most of those degrees that we spend so much money and time.
25:03
studying for. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Do you think in an ideal world, there should be some kind of assessment when you enter college to even decide if that's the degree you're choosing, if that's the right one for you? I know maybe personality. I guess that would test. Yeah, that would maybe be a good idea. The only.
25:25
Caveat to that is we evolve so much in life, right? So I don't want people to take a test and say, oh, I'm excellent with this right now, which you might be at 18 years old, right? And then in the long run, get caught up and say, oh, I don't really think I want a career in that, right? And so they're still focused on, but I tested so well, or I was told that this was the best career for me. I would like people to know what their interests are and maybe a test would.
25:50
open their eyes to that, but I don't want them to be caught on that for the rest of their lives. Right. Stuck on that one. Yeah. Yes. Very good point. Thank you, doctor.