Speaking and Communicating Podcast

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Culture is shaped by what's rewarded and what's punished. And when no behaviors are punished, then we now have what are the makings of a toxic organization. If there's no accountability, if the leaders don't necessarily have, would say guardrails on how they interact and engage with you, how they speak to you, how they treat you, the boundaries that are there, that begins a toxic.

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Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I'm your host Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. By the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating in

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Now let's get communicating with our guest today. Joining us from the spicy chicken place to big old Texas. That's what they say. Everything is there here. Dr. Sharalyn Payne is joining us from Texas. She's a leadership culture and transformation advisor, especially advising C-suite executives on how to have scandal proof leadership.

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and how to use culture as a competitive advantage. And before I go any further, please welcome her to the show. Hi, Sharalyn. Hello, thank you for having me. I'm so excited that you're here. My pleasure. Why of all things did you choose that leadership was going to be your expertise? Oh, good question out the gate.

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I don't think I've ever had anyone to ask me that question though, which is really interesting, but I didn't choose leadership. Leadership chose me. And so it found me. fell in love with it and I've just eat it. I breathe it. It's the thing that I cannot stop doing. And I love it. It is truly my passion. It found you. I like that. So when you started your corporate career, obviously you start from what we call

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from the bottom you're a junior and you go up the ladder. Did you notice some things about leadership while still being a junior not being awarded the position yourself that you thought, huh, this is a different type of animal? Yeah, I think just watching leaders, I've always been around great leaders, solid leaders. And so it's been really interesting when I looked at my life and just began to see

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why in the world are certain people drawn to me? And once I began to kind of realize that, and then the people who also stay away from me, the type of leaders they were, and I began to just kind of connect the dots and notice the patterns, right? And so just sitting in meetings, just because of the role that I was in, it really put me in a position to have to interact with leaders on a regular basis. And I began to see they would ask my opinion.

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And I always had an opinion because I believe if I was in the room, I should have something to contribute. I didn't want to just go in the room and sit there and not have anything of value to add. And so I would just kind of share little things here or there. But I began to notice that they would ask my opinion if they were a really great leader. Now, the ones who were not so great, the ones that we would normally identify as a toxic leader.

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They stayed away. But I began to just kind of notice what are the differences between the ones that are shark, the ones that are leading the pack, the ones that people want to work for and contribute their very best. And then the ones that people are talking about at the lunch table, the ones that people don't want to do anything extra for, they can't get anyone to volunteer for anything. The ones who are leading with positional power and authority.

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and began to just document that so that I had something of value to share with others just based upon my observations and what I was learning along the way. Right. When you talk about the ones that nobody was willing to go the extra mile for, does that mean that they literally got an F on their influence score? They were not able to influence people.

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Yeah, that's true. You know, if we're looking at it like influence is leadership, good or bad. Now I would say good or bad, right? You have some type of influence, even if you're influencing them not to do something, but they were not able to move people. They weren't able to rally the troops or galvanize the troops. That's a huge part of leadership of getting people to want to share with you their ideas instead of withhold of wanting to, you need someone to volunteer or work or extra shift or

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take on this particular project and no one is stepping up to the plate. And that's a challenging conversation to have with the leader, especially when people were volunteering or going the extra mile before. And now all of a sudden something has shifted and now they are not doing that. And so we have to see what's happening. What happens with your influence? Why are you now at an F versus at least a B or C, if not an A?

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So the leaders who were able to make you follow the vision or be influenced or be willing on your own to go the extra mile, what were some of the qualities that they had? How was the approach when it comes to you feeling this, I'm willing to go the extra mile for? Right, great question. think it really comes down to your values. What is it that you as an individual, you value?

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because that's what's going to draw you to that person, right? So for me, if it's a person who is personable, a person who's full of character and integrity, they know what they're talking about. They invite you in, they like to have fun. They have a laid back style versus running everything as if we're in a prison. That makes the difference. So when you have the leaders who are, I would say the tyrants or they are only about the work, they don't see you as a human.

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with a family, with your own dreams, with your own goals, that you're just as intelligent as they are, maybe perhaps in some ways even more so. And they ask your opinion, right? So now I am looking at you as a person who I admire and I respect. Possibly we're friendly. We may not be friends, but we could be friendly towards each other versus someone who is combative or guarded or harsh or in competition with you.

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And so all of those factors, they weigh in on what you're willing to do for something that you don't have to do anything extra for. That's very, very key. And I hope any of our listeners listening to this, I know thinking, oh, does she want like a Chris Rock type of leader who makes jokes about that at all. But like you said, it's about seeing people as more than just working machines. Right. That's correct.

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And then let's talk about what you call scandal proof leadership. What do you mean by that? You know, when you think about, um, I love leaders at all levels of an organization, but the ones who are at the top are the ones who are absolutely making decisions that could put the organization and themselves, their families in jeopardy. And so when you're making decisions, and I'll you an example, I'll never forget this decision. Years ago, I was working for an organization.

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and I was over employee experience and engagement. And for whatever reason, something happened with our payroll system. The payroll system shifted. And when the payroll system shifted, we changed vendors. Something happened where we were not able to pay employees on time. Now, this is the catch. We were able to pay some employees, the salary professionals, they could get paid on time.

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But for whatever reason, our hourly professionals were not able, they could not get the checks processed on time. And so as we were talking about, what should we do about this? You know, we've got to figure out some type of solution. Should we have them manual checks cut? And the head of HR said no. And this went on for months. And then finally, there was this little package where they said, it's been fixed. Everything is resolved. We're back to normal. Go back to work.

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And everybody's thinking that this has been resolved, but for whatever reason, it wasn't resolved. Now, mind you, you have employees who are on auto pay. And so they're expecting that check to hit the bank because guess what's coming out of that bank account? Their mortgage, their rent, their utilities, their cable, whatever it is that they have on auto pay, right? But what happens if the money is not in the bank to clear those things?

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Exactly. addressed that with them. We were addressing it, remember? But they said everything is okay. But it's not is fixed, but we're not going to pay them. We didn't tell them to sign up for auto pay. So we're not going to pay any bounce check fees. We're not going to do this. And we're not interested in getting it fixed. And they can just keep working. And we'll just keep telling them it's coming and it's coming and it'll be fixed. And our employees continue to show up day in, out.

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for a while. Now, if it were me, I probably would have quit at some point, but they did. They held firm and this was a large organization. But who made the call? That could have easily have been a scandal had it gotten out to the media or gotten out to the right sources. Now I'll never forget sitting in a meeting and they told me that it had been resolved. And I asked the head of HR and instead of her saying, yes, we should, we can do this and yes, we can do this. And, know, looking into some of the solutions that I presented,

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She said, who told you that? Who told you that? Is that the appropriate response when we're not paying people, when we can be in a scandal? If this were to get out as large of an organization as we are, our status and the way that we do business, this would absolutely be a big thing. That's what I mean by scandal proof leadership. Let's think about the decisions that you're making. Let's think about what you're communicating. Let's think about the impact to people when we make these particular decisions.

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and let's have a response ready because we need to be prepared to answer the questions appropriately, not just from the media, not just from Congress, not just from an attorney, but for our people, the people who we actually owe, who are looking for us to do the right thing. That's what I mean by scandal-proof leadership. Instead of sitting in a room, we're trying to cultivate a message of why

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We're willing to pay our, we can get it right with our salary professionals. We can get it right with our executives, but our hourly employees, we fall short of the expectation with those individuals. First of all, I really commend them. Like you said, I never would have come back after not being paid for a while. They showed up not being paid. The question is, how were they so loyal despite not being paid? Was it the leadership? it?

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treat them that well, was the culture that great that they kept showing up while their mortgages were not being paid? Right. No, it wasn't. Wasn't great leadership. I hate to say it. It wasn't a strong culture. Our culture was dire straits, you know. I think it was just really the good will of people. And we underestimate who people are at core. I think it was their hope and their belief that they're going to get it right, that they owe me this money.

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And whatever their immediate leaders may have been saying to help shape that story. But the leadership overall, there was a lot to be desired. The culture, I hate to say it was a toxic culture. I'm a loyal person. I applaud those individuals for continuing to believe that things can get better. And I know sometimes we have hope. You know, we know that here in the States, former president Barack Obama won an election and a reelection.

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based upon hope. So people need hope and they want you to do the right thing. They want to believe in you. And just the quick ending to that story, they were backpaid, right? For everything. Once the system was fixed. Because I'm wondering also when we talk about the leadership and how people leave and you can't throw money at the problem anymore. They live because of a toxic culture.

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was also the size of the organization, the reason people kept coming back to the hourly ones despite not being paid because there's a level of I'd call it security, which is ironic in this situation. But when people work for a big organization, do we sometimes notice that leaders in those organizations don't feel the need to step up and have these people skills we're talking about, the soft skills we're talking about because they feel the

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size of the organization immediately makes people be attracted to us and want to work here. Of course. Yeah, I think so. We have a reputation when you are a large organization, right? You can get away with a little bit more because people trust you. They know that, okay, they're not going to let this number of people fail. This organized size organization failed. Somebody is going to come in to bail us out. Somebody is going to come in to save the day at some point.

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And so you began to, I think just a sense of comfort. And then for others, it's not desiring to look for another job. I have this job. I know that eventually I will more than likely get paid. They owe me this money. And what about the culture was toxic because you say your health leaders create a culture where they can have a competitive advantage. When you compare that organization to

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what you now advise leaders to do, what about it was toxic and how do you help your clients avoid creating those kinds of cultures? Yes, absolutely. So one of the things I would say, you know, with any organization, culture is shaped by what's rewarded and what's punished. And when nothing is punished, no behaviors are punished.

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then we now have what are the makings of a toxic organization. If there's no accountability, if the leaders don't necessarily have, I would say guardrails on how they interact and engage with you, how they speak to you, how they treat you, the boundaries that are there, that begins a toxic culture. When you are not paying individuals, of course they,

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may know that they're eventually going to get paid, right? But think about the stress that you put them under and what happens with people when they're stressed and under pressure. At some point, a lot of times they crack. So pressure produces what's already inside of you. And if you're not healthy as an individual and working on your emotional intelligence, your ability to lead, your ability to navigate certain stressful situations,

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then what happens is that you have this buildup, this pressure that's cooking that eventually comes up and it comes out. And so when you don't have that accountability piece, your values piece where you're leading with your organizational values and saying, hey, this is what we tolerate at this organization. This is what we expect at this organization. This is how we engage with each other. Then it becomes a toxic and an unhealthy organization.

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especially when it persists. Now the flip side to that is when I work with leaders and I get excited about leaders who want to have leadership as a competitive advantage culture as a competitive advantage. That's exciting because now we have some boundaries and you can do a whole lot when you have some boundaries. I like to say you don't have to tell people how to get from point A to point Z. You can allow them to be as creative

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as they possibly can, but just give them the guardrails. You don't have to tell them exactly what to do because they may just shock you with what they can come up with if you give them the flexibility, right? To be able to autonomy, to be able to deliver. And so that's when you begin to see people have fun and they are creative and they're working with each other and they're helping each other and they're collaborative and they have this healthy competitive spirit, right? Where the leaders are

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galvanizing those troops and they're excited about what we're at, where we're going and we're casting vision and we're communicating. It's no different when I share with the leaders that any other relationship in your life. And one of the things that I have them to do is to envision the healthiest relationship in their life. Okay. What does that look like? What does that actually feel like? What are you saying with each other? What are you doing together? I think that's the game changer that we forget.

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that an organization really is an organism. It's a system and they're made up of people and those people have relationships and they're engaging. And so if you are in a relationship and I'm laughing because I'm thinking about one of my leaders that I was working with and she was working at an organization, I was coaching her and she was the vice president. And she would always tell me, she's like, Sherrilyn.

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I am in this abusive relationship. I am so tired of being in this abusive relationship. I call it my ugly boyfriend that's paying me so much money that I cannot leave. The handcuffs are on me that I cannot leave. And I've gotten accustomed to the lifestyle and the money that comes along with it. I have handcuffs on, but I hate it. And he's beating me every day. That's how she likened this relationship with this particular organization.

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And so we began to talk about how do you change your perception? Number one, is this where you really want to be? Is this the best use of your abilities and your talents and your giftings? What can you do to ensure that for your team, you protect your team, insulate your team where they're not feeling the weight of the organization the way you're feeling it. And maybe it's again, using your influence as a leader and your position.

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to be able to go behind the scenes one-on-one and began to work with key leaders about what would happen if we began to shift some things. What would happen if I began to hold your team accountable? Your team was supposed to do this and my team is supposed to do this. And what would happen or what would it look like if we could actually come together and ensure that we're on the same page versus no one says anything out of fear. That's what creates the toxicity in that.

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organization. Yes, it's the lack of collaboration, the lack of accountability. It's understanding that maybe perhaps your values and your expectations because what happens is we have unspoken expectations, the lack of communication, and we have unmet expectations. And in any relationship in our life, when you're continuously disappointed, what happens? It either begins to get a little bit unhealthy,

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or you began to check out because you think it just doesn't matter. Yes, that's a very emotionally taxing position to be in, especially like you said, when the expectations are unmet and you are constantly disappointed. Hence she describes it as an abusive boyfriend who pays her well. Pretty extreme. Can you imagine what it does to her mentally? Oh my goodness.

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And then you talk about somebody paying the leadership cost in that situation, who pays the leadership cost? All of us, all of us pay the cost because if it's a toxic culture who wants to work there? What type of people stay there? What does it do to your own dreams? What does it do to you as a person? If you're being unfulfilled, if you're unhappy because I'm

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pretty sure you have some dreams and some goals outside of the job that you're currently doing. You may aspire and not everyone aspires to a higher level position, but you may aspire to another position or a higher position and you may not have aspire to anything like that. Just good health. What about the stress and what it does to your health? What does it do and how does it change and shape your personality where you go from being a fun, happy,

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loving, engaging person who you want to have personal relationships outside of the workplace. So now I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I don't want to go, I don't feel like it. And so now you begin to see some of your other relationships, your personal relationships being impacted. You're grouchy, you go to the doctor, now you have a disease, you know, maybe it's your body, your immune system attacking yourself. Those are things that we don't think about the stress.

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of what it does to your heart and your spirit and how it impacts the other dreams that you may have in life, your family, because we give our best, we're at the job all day. So you give the best of yourself to your job, but then your family is left with the rest of you. And what does that look like? Do you show up well for them? So you can be the best wife and the best mother and the best sister and the best friend you can possibly be. So we don't realize how our

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environment shapes us. That's why leadership is so critical because even in a toxic overarching culture you have a subculture within that culture and the leader has the ability to say hey for this no matter what's going on out there when we're here this is what we're doing we're having fun when we're here we're helping each other we're supporting each other. I am

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mentioning your name in rooms and giving you opportunities and giving you the flexibility to go and pursue some of your dreams. I'm going to give you the okay to go and pursue this professional development course. Even if it means you have to log off maybe 10 minutes early or 15, whatever the case is, right? But in a healthy organization or with a healthy leader, they understand that it's more than this moment.

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It's much more than this moment because you are a life. And they understand that even with how I interact and engage with you, I am creating legacy because you're going to remember this experience. Right. And if you're a leader, even somewhere else, hopefully you will take this experience and decide that you're going to be the best leader you possibly can be because you have someone to pattern yourself after.

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versus someone you're saying, never want to lead or I never want to be like that person. But it's a decision that has to be made because we all pay the price for culture. We all pay the price for leadership. When you think about, when you're withholding your best ideas, because you're not excited about the organization or the job that you're doing and you don't contribute at the level that you could, the organization is not leading the market like it could.

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So just think about if everybody, just 10 % of the people showed up with their full sales in an organization, what could possibly happen? It's very ironic to still have leaders who are resistant to being the best leader that they could be in the way we at least described because just that alone, don't they want to make more money for the organization? Cause they probably have shares and profit sharing. So they're going to make more money and

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Why are they still resisting some of those who do? Why are they still resisting having the people skills, the emotional intelligence, seeing their people as people, not just working machines? Because they would benefit too. I still don't understand where the disconnect is if you still have toxic leaders like that. Yeah, I mean, well, people are people, right? So.

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We're going to have different types of people in every level of an organization, every place in society. But some people have not seen truly the impact of great leadership. They don't understand the possibility, or they think that it's reserved for the coaches, your high school coach, your basketball coach, this NBA coach or NFL coach. They don't really understand that you as a leader, you have the capability.

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to really shape lives in a way that's exciting. Leadership is hard. I'm not gonna lie. It's not the easiest of things because you're dealing with people. Right, you're dealing with people on a regular basis. And so you have to be able to adjust. You've got to be able to be balanced and firm. And so you can't always be the same person every single time. It's kind of like, hear, I'm not a parent, but I hear parents say, well, you give this child what this child needs and this child may need a little bit more.

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But I think you try and be fair. And when you think about, I'm going to be fair, what is really fair? That's subjective, right? It could shift and it could change based upon a number of things. But to understand that it is a full contact sport, you're going to take some hits, you're going to take some blows, you've got to be able to change positions.

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You've got to be able to say, was right, I was wrong. You need to do this. And now I'm your leader. You go back and you balance, OK, I'm either a friend or I'm either a leader. Can they like me? All of these things. But when we think about leadership, most of the time in organizations, I've not really seen any organization that allows their people, their leaders, to regularly engage in leadership development.

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and good solid leadership development on a regular basis and hold leaders accountable by measuring what they do. We evaluate employees. Do we really evaluate leaders with the same level of scrutiny? Oftentimes we don't. We just don't have time, right? Sometimes we do, but often we don't unless it's something major and the board is looking at.

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this particular, you know, role CEO and the CEO is looking at his leadership team and I know I got to get some things done. And so we began to get comfortable with the check and you don't really invest in yourselves. I've not seen a lot of leaders willing to invest in themselves. And so, know what, regardless of what, the organization is paying for or sending me to, I'm worth the investment because I want to be a great leader and because I want to be a great leader, I'm going to invest my own money.

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and ensuring that I'm developing these people because it's worth it. It's part of my own legacy and who I am. It takes a different level of leader and enlighten leader. I'm not saying that there are none out there, but it is a solid investment. it's a sport where you have to be humble enough to ask for feedback or to be able of little struggle with because the fact that you've been awarded the position, some of them will have the idea that

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I either should appear like I know everything. Yes. But then I've got this. Because then if I ask questions or if I'm open to feedback or if I appear like I might have done something wrong, then do I deserve the position? Right. You're exactly right. Spot on. Instead of now the people see you as human and they can talk to you and you can get the answers to the test.

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So you can be able to do and achieve more and continue to grow your career and have a team where you don't have to really manage them. They can manage themselves. You're just leading and you understand what true leadership looks like. And that's totally different from management. I'm not a parent either, just like you. It's almost like when parents say, my job is to prepare you for the world. So when you step out of the house, you have wings to fly. Right.

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Exactly. Any last words of wisdom, Sharalyn? Anything about leadership you were hoping to share with our listeners today that I haven't asked you yet? I would say if you are a leader or you desire to be a leader, invest in yourself and your capabilities every single day. And there are two things that I believe you can do and it would totally

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change how you interact and how you engage with people and your ability to be able to influence at all levels within an organization. Now the first one is simply developing yourself and you can do that by growing every single day. 30 minutes you're reading, 30 minutes you're listening, 30 minutes you're talking and asking for feedback and you take the information that you read, you take the information that you listen, you take the information that somebody gives you.

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and you do something with it, you actually apply it. That's it. Just 30 minutes every single day. Yes. Seven days a week, every day that ends in day. You are growing yourself. some day? Including some day. That's it. And then the second thing I would say, once you've done that, it's just began to write down what you're learning.

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how you have grown, how you've shaped yourself. So reflection. So one, you're practicing. And the second, you're reflecting on what you've learned, what the action was, and how you've grown. And you can discuss that with somebody. If you just do those two things every day, I'm going to say the second one you can do once a week. But if you do the second one once a week, you do the first one every day.

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You will be amazed at how strong of a communicator you are. You will be amazed at your executive presence, your ability to lead, your ability to have confidence and not to take things personal. You're well on your way to being a great leader. And that's exactly what we want to create in organizations. Words of wisdom from Dr. Sharalyn Payne, the founder of Return on Power.

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Leadership, Culture and Transformation Advisor to C-suite executives. Thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for having me. This was fantastic. It certainly was. And before you go, where can our listeners and viewers find you online? Yes. So I am at ultrainfluential.com. U-L-T-R-A-I-N-F-

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L-U-E-N-T-I-A-L, UltraInfluential.com. UltraInfluential.com to get in touch with Dr. Sherilyn Payne from Texas. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify and stay tuned for more episodes to come.