Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Soft Skills w...Kwon.wav

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00:00
I don't like to waste time and I don't like to be confused or make mistakes. And in my business, I used to manage money. And so if I misconstrue something, it could lead to lots of losses, actual millions of dollars. So I had to be very careful how I worded something in every correspondence. I was very, very careful, very direct, very explicit, as less words as possible, but getting my point across.
00:26
Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I'm your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.
00:51
Now let's get communicating with our guest today, my friend, John Kwon, joining us from South Korea. Although born in Korea, grew up in four different countries, which include the United States. He has been head of different hedge fund companies, one of which he was managing a fund worth $23 billion in equities. And one of the things that John and I discussed the last time we had a conversation,
01:21
was about how young people can develop soft skills and what the root cause of the lack thereof is. And before I go any further, please welcome him to the show. How, John? Hi, how are you? I'm doing fantastic. Good to see you. How are you? Very excited to talk about this topic because people have been discussing how young people lack these social skills these days.
01:46
You and I got to talking about this during our Toastmasters meeting, which you and I are part of. And Toastmasters is a communications specific group. So I thought this was a very fitting conversation to have with you regarding that. We're for a pension fund. But what I think in my CV that is more relevant to what you're trying to talk about is I'm a father to children, two sons. And through their schooling, I was
02:16
hands on with how they grew up and how they developed their communication skills or lack thereof being taught at schools. So this was near and dear to my experience. So I thought I would have this conversation with you and kind of have a fun dialogue as to the causes and why these things are happening and other aspects of this that other people might not have thought of. I'm excited as well. Of course, the guest, we are waiting for so much more that you're going to share with us.
02:45
But I think first of all, a lot of the time, especially in past episodes, whenever we discuss young people, we always say the schools don't teach it, the schools don't teach it. How much, like you said, with your sons, you felt the responsibility. How many parents are aware that that is the influence they need to have in order to develop their children's soft skills? So before we start with that,
03:13
I would like to clearly define what soft skills are. The way I think of soft skills, I'm an American, I lived in the US for the longest period, and I'm actually based out of US more than Korea. But the way I grew up understanding what soft skills were, because it's culture and region specific in my view, it's whatever you need to do communication wise to get what you want and to make things happen.
03:43
in business setting or what have you or any interaction. What you need to have are soft skills that get your point across but also understand the other person's point and come to an agreement or at least an understanding or clear understanding of what's going on so that you may be able to do what you are looking for with that person. Persuasion, selling things, make them follow your ideas, whatever it is.
04:12
Those are what I call soft skills. It's skills that's not explicit, but it's implicit, meaning it's not overtly expressed outward. But you imply it and you do it in a way that's non-direct, thus the soft moniker. So that's how I think of what soft skills are. And your question was, with your children, how did you see this play out in schools? Well, typically schools teach subjects.
04:42
and they don't typically teach soft skills. However, I lived in Virginia where the area I lived in had very high level of public schooling. So when my son was in second grade, he had a class called Citizenship Skills. So I've never heard this before, but apparently what citizenship skills is, is that when they're in second grade, they're learning how to socialize and they're learning how to speak to each other and with the teacher.
05:11
learn how to be on task, learn how to complete a task, all those things. How to follow direction, how to follow multi-step directions. So when they're young, unless you explicitly teach these children these skills, they don't learn it. They learn it at school. I came home one day and my son had a really low grade in citizenship skills. He had problems with following direction. He had problems with understanding commands.
05:41
and quickly acting on those commands, directives. We never had a problem with him at home and I was very concerned. I was surprised with this finding. And then I found out later that he has ADD tendencies. He has ADD and that's very common in boys at that age. And what that means is their mind is preoccupied so they cannot understand and follow direction right away. And what I understood from this was
06:11
It's not that he lacks it, it's that he doesn't understand how to control it and how to perform these things. It can be taught, but he didn't understand why he wasn't able to perform that way and why the teachers at the end of the day were not happy with him because of this. So I had to learn very quickly how to explain to him what these things are. And essentially these are soft skills so that he may be able to work well within a group, work well within a
06:40
organization and understand and act on communication that's maybe direct and more directed and guided. So these are things that I had to kind of learn because of my son, not because I was a hedge fund manager or any other stuff. So I became more interested. What the kids lack is that unless they learn it through experience at home, through home life,
07:05
For example, they have a lot of dialogue with their parents or maybe their grandparents or relatives or siblings. They don't learn this per se. It's typical in my view of kids who are alone or single kids. They don't get a chance to socialize very much outside of school with peers and you know. So if you don't get that at home, you need to get that at school. And once kids grow up,
07:30
to be past second or third grade, schools don't focus on that. They focus on math, English, the subjects. So I think the formative years, it's very important for children to understand this. And it's formed at very, very young age. These soft skill things, a lot of people think, oh yeah, you can learn this in middle school, high school. In my point of view, it's learned when they're toddlers and then all the way through elementary school. First of all, do they still have that citizenship class?
07:58
That was a very particular thing for our county. I lived in Fairfax County in Virginia, which has one the highest. one decides for the school district and what not. it varies by state. There are 50 of them and it varies by county. So when there is a high income area, the property taxes are higher so they can afford to hire quality teachers and include objects like this.
08:27
If you go to less funded areas, I think they're barely able to fund schools. So they only get the basic subjects that are necessary. I have never seen that in anywhere else, but I'm not in schools, so I don't really know. But that's what I encountered with my children. Very interesting. And the other point that we brought up as well is we grew up with obviously no internet, no computers, smartphones, none of that. So we used to play and
08:56
That much time spent with other kids taught you these conflict resolution skills. I don't know how it was in the United States in the 80s, but back home TV used to be discontinued at like eight, no more broadcasting until the next day. So there wasn't much TV as well, a few programs and that's it, which means there's time for parents and kids to sit at the table and say, was school? If you say, I kicked that boy.
09:22
they're gonna address that and they wanna find out what's going on and they're gonna coach you on how to handle situations, which typically doesn't happen anymore because everybody's busy. There's so much to do and that distracts us, especially the kids. They're distracted by the technology and the devices. So in America in the 70s and 80s, I didn't grow up in America until I was a tween. I didn't go to America until I was 13. But from what I've seen of my friends, they grew up as latchkey kids.
09:52
So latch key is a gate key that they open the gate and go in themselves because there's no adult around. So that's a typical phenomenon in the 80s and 70s where American children at Generation X or early millennials, I guess, tend to have no adults around when they go home. So they were not able to interact with a lot of people. However, you brought a very important point about social media. There is no ubiquitous social media.
10:21
So they're not passively consuming things besides television. By the way, America had television pretty much all day, all night. So that's how a lot of kids consume media at the time. But typically you had neighborhood kids, you'd go out and there's no adult supervision. So you just went out and played. If you had a bike, that was your basically your airplane. You can get on your bike and bike anywhere, everywhere. Nobody cared. Nobody stopped you.
10:50
And that's how you interacted with people. You just go up and learn how to speak to people, learn how to fit into a group, learn how to hang with different types of people. In the neighborhood, they different age groups. So older generation people, older people, younger people, kids, you had to kind of fit in among all those people. With the advent of social media, I think a lot of children don't need to do that. They don't need to interface with anyone at all. So they lack that
11:20
person to person, I guess, friction. And that friction is really what causes soft skills. Because in my opinion, soft skill is something that you need to understand of the other person so that you can interact in a way that arrives at the conclusion or the goal that you're looking for. So if you don't have the other party, you don't learn these things. And social media, you don't have another party. You're just downloading content. Just keep your various brand.
11:49
wrist luggage. Yeah. Correct. And going back to the citizenship skill issue with my son, I became concerned. So I asked him directly, what exactly are you having problems with? And in his case, he didn't hear the teacher's commands or direction because he was thinking about something else. So these are things that should be addressed at home, I think first. So parents are aware of how your children's personality or character or their
12:18
works are so that they may be able to adjust at school better. So I developed a way for him to kind of focus better and see how he can adjust to these things. I spent a lot of time talking to him and just kind of developing a tailored solution, if you will, by kind of giving him tests at home. If he's doing something and he's focused, I would purposely go up to him behind and say, hey, that's his name. You'll, hey.
12:47
And then I would check if he stopped what he was doing and then turn around and pay attention to what I was saying. In the beginning, I noticed that he did not hear me at all. We had to develop that. And I consider that kind of a soft skill. ah Nowadays, you don't need to do that. If you're an engineer, you're coding, you're vibe coding, you put your headphones on, you don't need anybody else. And if you continue to do that, you know, you can develop a certain neural pathway where you don't do these things and you're not used to doing these things.
13:17
I think it can erode certain aspects of your social skills. So I definitely think that it's something that you can work on, but it's something you can also be taught and learn. Right, and you certainly did that with your son. Now, when we are comparing these two generations, do you think that it also has a cultural element to it in how the youth develop these soft skills over time?
13:44
Definitely. The reason I brought up culture is because soft skills are different for different countries, different cultures. So I believe in America, soft skills, in my opinion, is really about how you speak in a way that is likable and understandable and being very persuasive and also be able to kind of showcase charisma, you will, a Riz as the kids call it these days. But
14:14
In Korea, skills or soft skills are different things. In Korea, soft skills are understanding something that's not said. In America, things are said very explicitly and very direct. In Korean culture, think it's said without being said. If you understand what I mean. Koreans have this thing called 눈치, which means you get what that person is trying to do or say without that person
14:43
telling you exactly what they're doing or saying. And that's a soft skill that's very specific to Korean culture, I believe. So for example, they don't like to say no in Korean culture directly because they consider that rude. So what they do is you ask them, you know, let's have dinner sometime, come to my house for dinner, like say eight o'clock today or tomorrow. The person will be like, oh yeah, let me, let me see, let me check this or that. And they might give you kind of an excuse, a way out.
15:13
to say I might not be able to make it, but in a way that's kind of like saying, I'm not gonna make it. If that makes sense. They might say something like, I have a thing until like nine o'clock, so you might run over, I will confirm with you later or something like that. So without saying no, they kind of bypass that whole. diplomatic about it. So if you were dealing with somebody like me, I'm South African, unless you are explicit about the fact that it's a no for you.
15:42
If you do those little diplomatic lines of, let me just check with my schedule. I'll like, okay, I'll wait for your phone call and you let me know. I'm pushing you further, which then puts you in a bigger hole when you could have just said, know what, Roberta, I'm not gonna make it. Yeah. But if you notice, this is actually common in American culture as well, especially on the West coast. So America is different cultures as well, even though it's one country.
16:11
I noticed that there are different types of soft skills. If I am well versed in soft skills, when that Korean person is trying to tell me they can't make it, I would be wise enough not to press it or push it. So I don't put that burden on that person. Like you said, I'm American, so I would be like, okay, what time? Okay, you can't make it, exact same thing. The poor Korean person would be like, I don't want to talk to you or go there. They don't, but they can't say it. So you're putting them in a bind and they're more stressed.
16:41
So that to me is not good soft skills. That's an example of one, a humorous one at that. in America, it's more of a salesy kind of like, how do you kind of have a conversation with everyone very easily? How do you persuade people to listen to you, to listen to your point? Those things I think are soft skills and understanding kind of the culture mores. So without being told what to do, for example, at work, you know what to do.
17:09
That's example of implicit without being told directly. So those are kind of things that I consider soft skills, but culturally, think there are similarities and differences. And if you were to move across as happened so often, especially since COVID, if you are a Korean person from that culture and how you handle situations where you don't want to be non-confrontational.
17:34
then you get to the United States where they'll be in your face and say, I need to know the date when we'll be doing this. How do handle a situation like that? Well, I'll give you a great example. I'm a very direct American and through work, I don't know if it's an American thing, but I don't like to waste time and I don't like to be confused or make mistakes. And in my business, I used to manage money in finance. So if I misconstrue something or misunderstand something, it could lead to
18:04
lots of losses in money, like actual millions of dollars. So I had to be very careful how I worded something in every correspondence. And I had to be very careful what I said in my email because as a public pension official, I was a government employee, they can trace my email and subpoena me in court of law. I was very, very careful, very direct, very explicit, as less words as possible, but getting my point across.
18:33
Then my wife is a Korean national. She comes from Korean culture. Also, she's a female. So she's very non-confrontational, very indirect. And we had a very difficult time understanding each other's style. So I can tell you exactly how that goes. My wife would want something and she would do it in her roundabout way. I don't understand. So when I hear it, I consider that not important because she said it in a way that wasn't urgent enough.
19:01
So I would be like, oh, that's nice. And then I would do my thing. And she's like, an hour later, two hours later, she's like, I told you this, why aren't you, know, whatever, A, B, I said, oh, you, is that what you wanted? I didn't know. It sounded like advice to have. I was like, I didn't know it was that urgent. Like it's so, it happens so often and it is very, very frustrating on both sides. Those are the soft skills you develop.
19:30
And like you said, going cross-culturally, I would say it was one of the most difficult things I had to learn how to deal with. But over 21 years now, have come to, over time, we have come to an understanding of some kind. So we were better at it. Something you learn over time. And let's go back what you said earlier regarding also it's not just about you communicating, but the other person as well and understanding them. George Penacho, he said,
20:00
The greatest illusion we have about communication is that it has taken place. Which you think, if you think, oh wow, I've communicated, John knows exactly what I'm thinking and what I want to see happen. And it turns out that he, you're not on the same page. Yeah. So this is a very prevalent thing for me because I work in a business where there are a lot of people coming to me to make sales pitches. For example,
20:29
I manage the pension money so all these Wall Street fund managers would come to us, our office and say, hey, give us your money, we'll invest it for you and make you a lot of money. So they would give us pitches all the time, sales pitches. Amazingly, I've been at the other end of some of the most amazing sales pitches out there. They're rich, first of all, so they hired the best salesmen and they call it social engineering, by the way. They don't even call it sales. They call it social engineering, these guys.
20:58
They engineer socially how to get what they want, which is more assets under management, more money. So when we say soft skills, the epitome or the professionals at this are these sales engineers, so-called sales engineers. They understand the client. They know what the client might want to see or hear, and they provide that. And they're very, very good at it. And they understand it very quickly. And their communication style, I've noticed, is
21:28
very soft, gentle, probing, but very clear. It suits your kind of position, if you will. They understand you don't have time. They understand you see a lot of different people. So they know how to make a very clear message, a very direct, impactful message. I've been the other end, receiving end of that. So I've seen some of the best people who are really good at soft skills out there. It's truly remarkable. I mean, some of them are so good that
21:57
Sometimes I leave the meeting thinking like, I did those things, those ideas came from me, but it wasn't. I mean, they're very, good at these things. Yeah. So to me, social skills is something very important. Everybody should really understand and know it. And I think most successful people in any areas of life are really good at it. Let me ask you this. So you saw a lot of people and like you said, a lot of them are so well-trained or engineered into doing this job.
22:24
If you did choose one of them, what was it that made him stand out because it looks like you had the cream of the crop anyway? So what ended up happening is I didn't listen to any of their pitches towards the end. I asked them for their data. So there's no conversation, nothing, because what they would say and do, I taint my judgment. So towards the end, I didn't want to hear them. I didn't want to talk to them. I just received their performance data.
22:53
I would analyze that and if it was good enough, I would reach out to them and say, okay, come and pitch us your product or service. that's how it potential results they could bring. Not that all your sales pitch is the best. are so unforgettable. I'm going to go with you. Right. And after a while you see these people, you see these repetition, you see the patterns and I realize it's really not something that you can listen to and make a decision on. It needs to be based on data.
23:24
So if I'm going to give them money, I need to see how their performance is. Do they make money? So that kind of business, I don't need to even talk to them. They then give me the data. I would run it through my calculations and analysis. And then if I really thought that was helpful, I would reach out to them. I mean, it got to the point where that much social skill, if you will, or self skill, it was too much.
23:47
and it was maybe clouding the situation. So I went the other way. That's an extreme case to be fair. Most people won't ever be in that position. Right. At the end of the day, you want the results. So no matter how great it sounds, are you going to give me the numbers I'm looking for? We've had this discussion before where, you have our Generation X being in leadership positions, but then you have these new kids coming in from college.
24:17
And this is their first job. As you said, a lot of this generation due to growing up with technology, they haven't had much exposure and experience to practicing the soft skills. When they are in the same workplace, what have you noticed with some of the clashes with the lack of a better word? And how best can that be handled so that everybody collaborates and works together?
24:47
This is very funny because one of my vendors was a hedge fund. saleswoman, she was our liaison. So she would visit us once in a while. They managed our money. And one day she comes in and she goes, the Gen Z's I said, what's wrong with Gen Z's? She said, we hired one guy. And after a month, she said, I don't want to do this anymore and just quit. And in her mind, she couldn't understand it because she worked for so long to be where she is.
25:16
And she worked so hard to work for this particularly prestigious hedge fund that somebody who was given this chance would throw it away. She couldn't understand that. I was laughing about it. I said, you assume that everybody's value or what they want out of life is same as yours. These kids do not have the same value system you do. They do not have the same goals that you do. She couldn't understand it. She's like, why wouldn't you want to work at a prestigious hedge fund?
25:46
make a million or two a year, whatever they make, they made a lot of money. I didn't, but they made a lot of money with my money, not my money, but our organization's I'm a government employee. got paid government wages. They go manage our money and they make whatever it is. in her mind, she couldn't understand it. And she worked really hard to be where she was. And she's like, why would he throw away this opportunity to make basically a lot of money? And I said,
26:15
you are assuming that money is the primary driver of this young person's life. That is not the case, obviously, and she's just not accepting that. And that's where the dichotomy is. The Gen Xers and millennials, we grew up in a system that defined these are the parameters you need to be operating in. And these are the metrics that you need to be good at to do this, to move up or to do a particular job.
26:44
the next generation have seen this, have seen the downside of such things. For example, that hedge fund saleswoman I mentioned, she worked nonstop. Most likely she won't have children until she's 40. And she's okay with that because she cares about being in that grind, making money and working in New York and all that. For her, that's a achievement. Gen Z have grown up seeing people like that. And they're like, are they happy? I don't think they're happy.
27:14
I don't want to do that. But the people who have been doing that, I don't know if it's brainwashed, but culturally it's so pervasive. They think that's what success is. So the definition of success is just different. Exactly. We grew up culturally where you chase the stuff to prove success because of the era in which we grew up in. Remember also children of today, we spoke about social media earlier. They have so many more options than we did when we graduated.
27:43
There's so much out there and half of it, especially since COVID, there's so much with chat, GPT and other AI tools that you can do while sitting at home. So they know they have options. They know that they don't have to work a 16 hour day in order to make them. We were talking the other day about celebrities and people said, oh my goodness, when we used to watch Crave, they say, oh, I want that light bulb. But do you really?
28:11
Because you don't know the behind the scenes work that goes into it. Do you want the entire package? I think that's the question. That is a very good question. do, you quit after a month. When you first got hired, it was like, yay! But probably told mom and dad, I made it. I'm working for a hedge fund. I'm gonna make millions. After a month, it's like, all the stuff that comes with it, probably, but for me. Yeah, I think it's actually better for younger generation.
28:40
because I think they are aware that there are alternate ways to achieve what they want. It's not that they don't want money, they want money, but they know that they can get it through different means. When you and I were growing up, there was no such thing as an influencer. Influencer was like, I didn't understand what that meant when it first came out on the scene. I didn't even dream of such thing or imagine such thing could possibly exist. So we're in an economy where it's recognition or fame economy.
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or exposure come before exposure was bad or good, right? We would try to hide ourselves because sometimes exposure led to bad things. Now it's almost like exposure at all costs. They monetize it. So knowing you have those options, you move through life very differently than when we did thinking, you know, you see your predecessors, they...
29:34
They get these, oh oh, 40 years of service in the same company, parka pens and... Old watch, yeah. Old watch. Hence I say, I think sometimes our generation, if they're still in literature positions, they tend to have this mindset that these kids are not trying hard enough or they're not coming with the right attitude. Whereas they just see life differently because they grew up with so many more options than we did. However, I feel like...
30:04
The new generation are misled. The success rate of these things, YouTubers, influencers, it's not only guaranteed, but it's very small. The small pool of people who can pull this off, you might get to your successful or where your goal might be through the conventional means that you and I went through more reliably than if they went through the social media routes or other alternative ways.
30:31
And this is one of the reasons why, in my opinion, Bitcoin took off because it's an alternate way of obtaining wealth because it was never done before, this digital coin stuff. As a professional wealth manager who is steeped traditional assets, Bitcoin to me was like, who would do this? This looks ridiculous, but it blew up and it's massive. I still don't believe in it personally, professionally, but the point is when these situations and cultural
31:01
understandings change, the people who are in power or in leadership positions, our age group, they haven't changed with that. With the times, Correct. And our expectations and the changes and the views that young people have, obviously there's a huge disconnect. When you and I discussed this, you said, why aren't young people understanding this and doing this? Well, they realized if they did that,
31:29
it doesn't necessarily lead to what they're looking for. The young people are not crazy and they're not completely out of their minds. oh And it's not that they're not willing to work hard. It's just the way they want to do it and how they do it and the actual goal to which that they want to work towards can be extremely different than what we think of as traditional pathways to success. So these definitions and ideas, how can it gel, right?
31:58
How do you connect the disconnect or uh mend that broken parts? And to me, that's where social skills come in, the soft skills come in to kind of bridge that gap so that older generation, for example, CEOs of the world have a better understanding of how to maximize productivity of their workers, which is his job, her job. So this is a directly relevant topic when it comes to businesses, when it comes to many, many things in life.
32:27
for things to work. I think understanding the why that drives the young people's mind, the why as to why they do what they do, the drivers of their intrinsic motivation, as I would say, that is so key to understanding how to, number one, understand them, number two, how to motivate them to do what you want them to do. Which also is a sub-skill. Correct. And it goes both ways. Just because you're older doesn't mean
32:57
You can't learn new skills or new social skills. I think it's a never-ending thing. And you have to keep your mind fluid and keep your eyes open and mind open as well, just to accept new information. And just accept that you could be wrong. These are things that us older people need to be aware of and be more mindful of. I think that's our social skill that we need to develop. Right. And that's actually true, especially we grew up also in an era where your boss knew everything because there was no Google.
33:26
So you always thought senior meant more knowledge, more expertise, and I'm going to learn from them. Whereas today it has changed. You could get an innovative idea from a 22-year-old. Oh, yeah. And this is why nobody respects older people's knowledge. uh Nobody cares. Like, I can ask Chachi Pitti. Sure, it's 80 % wrong, but who cares, as long as I get something. And I think we are all learning how to adapt to it, because AI is so new. Right.
33:54
People are very quick to try to take advantage of it to what they want to do. I don't know if you're aware, but young people, their absorption and understanding of new tech is, I think, 10 to 100 times faster. Yeah, the ones helping their parents. exactly. So, I mean, we're in a position where we're playing catch up, where you may never catch up. So why should young people listen to those people who are just so slow and don't understand some of the stuff I already get in like 10 seconds, right?
34:23
The inherent respect we had for our seniors, like you said, if it's a senior member, I would try to learn from him or her and I would really appreciate the opportunity. Now they're like, I don't want to waste time with these people who don't understand basic AI neural networks. Like I don't need to explain that and waste my time. I mean, case in point, even in post-masters where I serve as a president, I should know a lot of the bylaws, et cetera, et cetera. I don't, because I'm a new member.
34:52
And when I ask questions, lot of the answer I get is look it up on Google. Look it on Chetjiputti. They have all the answers. The information is in the negatives. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not how I learned. I want to learn from you. know what mean? Like, I'm not used to doing that. Already there's that disconnect. The world is changing so fast. But I think you and I discussed social skills to begin with. But social skills never go away. It never goes away because what are we doing? What are you and I doing?
35:22
we are having a conversation one-to-one. And I think social skills is needed in every interaction with another human being. So it will never go away. And even with the existence of AI, it's never gonna go away. Actually, my prediction is because of AI, it'll become much more important. And it'll be a necessity for somebody to be able to do this.
35:51
on a one-to-one basis over huge Zoom meetings, what have you. I think it'll be even more important. And people who are really good at it will be leaders of the future. That's my prediction. Because how do you motivate masses of people in this day and age with AI age? They will listen to somebody. If they don't listen to AI, they will listen to some human being. And how does that human being motivate and lead? And that's a whole new set of social skills.
36:21
that needs to be enhanced or developed. The leaders of tomorrow will be kind of the leaders we had before, except they're even more well versed in that, in my opinion. Absolutely. Words of wisdom from John Kwan from South Korea, who used to work and manage huge assets in terms of hedge funds and government pension funds. John, thank you so much for highlighting to us how important it is.
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to develop soft skills, especially with young people and the fact that they will never get out of style. uh I appreciate this conversation. Really appreciate the time. I'm glad that you were here as well. Would you like listeners and viewers to reach out to you and where they can reach me on my email? I believe I gave you my email. Yes, I will put it I'm old school. I don't IG. I don't do any of that. I disconnected it. I email.
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because email leaves records. If somebody wants to sue me, they can go through my email and find proof. There you go. Sounds exactly like a typical GenX. Thank you, John Kwon, for being on our show today. Thank you. Appreciate the time. My pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe, Liberating, and a review on Apple and Spotify. And stay tuned for more episodes to come.