Speaking and Communicating Podcast

scan, tell yourself the truth, be willing to own what you need to change and to prioritize yourself because you are accountable for your own life, right? Your job isn't. And things do change and we change. We have to be to change how we work at work or change sometimes where we work.
00:21
Welcome back to the speaking and communicating podcast. I'm your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.
00:46
Now let's get communicating with our guest today joining us from Wisconsin, the state that I call cheese. Dr. Melanie Gray is a registered nurse educator and is an expert in trauma informed leadership. She's here to help us heal from burnout and to live whole holistic lives. And before I go any further, please welcome her to the show. Hi, Dr. Gray.
01:14
Hey, Roberta, thank you for that wonderful introduction and for having me on your show. I'm so grateful. You are most welcome. Thank you for being here. I'm excited for our conversation as well. But before we go any further, you actually started to become and you did become a registered nurse. How did you then transition to now helping leaders and workplaces with their wellness? Well,
01:41
Roberta, that I've been a nurse a long time, like over 25 years. That could be a very long answer, but I'm going to give you the helicopter version. Oh, please do. So I have been a nurse and I have my background, my clinical backgrounds and critical care, cardiac. I also I have over 20 years of experience in higher ed, but really through my years of leadership and being involved in nurse governance.
02:07
I'm always that person I think had a sign on their forehead that said, tell me all of your business. And I always was able to foster them. People like talking to me, you know? So during COVID, really, when the world was going through so much trauma, my leader said, Melanie, people like talking to you and you're going to do it. Our younger nurses are really struggling. I mean, I'm 29 for the third time, you know, comparatively.
02:36
And so can you support them? And so that really made me focus more deep, more intentionally on the impact of historical and multi-generational trauma on workplace and behavior because the workplace has changed since COVID. People are, are different expectations that workers have, the employers, employees have. I believe that employers have to have a different mindset too, if they're going to engage and retain top talent.
03:05
in a healthy and meaningful way. So COVID drove it, but throughout my career, I've noticed people struggling and they would tell me. And so I would kind of coach them. And then it became more formalized since COVID. Speaking of COVID, especially being in the healthcare sector, I cannot fathom what you and all the healthcare professionals were going through during that period. It was really in the beginning. So again, I've been a nurse a long time, Roberta.
03:33
I had come through when HIV was first identified, how afraid people were of that. I've been through H1N1, monkeypox, bird flu. So I was prepared to pivot for, so I felt pretty resilient, but I wasn't prepared for seeing people that I would admit bring into the building at 11 o'clock a.m. cold and their hearts stopped and some people would not even make it by 3 p.m. and I had just seen them alert and looking like me.
04:03
So was very scary, but what I learned was really impressive with how the world came together. You know, we'd never seen the world, people of all cultures, backgrounds, humanity, beliefs come together to find a cause in one unified effort. So that really kind of gave me hope for the future for our world, actually. I mean, I digress a little bit, but it was pretty scary. I think that it has changed the world forever.
04:31
but also is why we have to then appreciate our lives and see ourselves outside of work and what we do for a living and be balanced. Yes, because you know how when somebody asks you and say, Oh, Dr. Gray, tell me about yourself. What do you, what's the first thing you say? Well, the first thing I say is I'm a nurse because that's people expect. I'm a nurse. Oh, they'll say, Oh, what's your PhD in? It's an education. How long you've been a nurse or what do you do? Where do you work?
04:59
I mean, they want your CV before they really want it. And then unfortunately, I think people base their desire to know you based on the CV that you report. I have to catch myself. There's a lot about me. I've been married for over 30 years. I'm involved in my church. I care for my mother, who's 90. And there's a lot about me. I do a lot of service work.
05:26
I do lean into it, but it doesn't come first. I'm in the bad habit like everybody else, I'll be honest. We're all the same. We all typically define ourselves by what we do for work, what our careers are, because I think that's just the culture that society has created. But think about when we started, Roberta. People have children. Kid is five years old. They ask little Josiah, Josiah, what do you want to be when you grow up? I we start very early.
05:54
You know, little Josiah might say, I'm gonna be a fireman. I'm gonna be a police officer. think, oh, isn't that cute? Little Josiah. And then we start giving them Christmas for Christmas doctors kits and nurses kits. And we try to start socializing them toward what we want them to do as an adult, right? You have a time there like in middle school, 13 or so, then we're really putting the pressure on. So are you thinking about college? You know, and it's just six years away. What are you gonna do?
06:22
And then we start panicking the kid by high school. You don't have your life together. You know, what are you doing, what are you gonna for college? Are you working on your ACT scores? Are you working on your SAT scores? Are you looking at your GPA for college? You're not gonna get into the best college to get the best career. I mean, so this goes on and we're trained to only see ourselves through one way, through one way.
06:48
And I think the real, and it's hard. So then we take this into adulthood, right? We go to school. I did all the things that I was supposed to do, work hard, go to school, get all the degrees. And you know, if you do check all the boxes, then life will be good, but it's different now. um It certainly is. Now let's talk about the work that you do with leaders. So you transitioned from being a nurse where you held those leadership positions and you started to see a parent.
07:16
And now the work that you do since COVID with leaders, what is the first or what should we say is the biggest challenge that they face when it comes to their culture and the wellness of their team members? Well, I think we were talking to, I talked to individuals coaching around burnout and I talked to organizations. Organizations first have to realize they often have a blind spot to how they stress.
07:44
the activities that they might employ that stress and burn out people. One example is too much change. The rollout of some events, of some initiatives aren't always thought out well. Then they stress their leaders. Another example is just being trauma-informed in how they communicate with people. Rather than saying, need to and I said and no, explain and collaborate.
08:14
Often organizations stress people and traumatize workers because they minimize them. They dismiss them. They think only the person that is the squeaky wheel, that has, that's very effervescent is the go-getter when you might have a very quiet person who's just as ambitious but you don't see them because they don't engage the way you think they should. Rather than taking time out and saying, hey, Jeff, I...
08:42
notice, why don't you come meet me for coffee for 15 minutes? Let me do a check in with you. Understand that leader and how you can develop them. Sometimes we don't develop people. We only see the ones that talk loud. The loudest mouth is not the smartest person, but just the loudest mouth. No, not necessarily. You know what they say about empty vessels. Yeah, right? Right. And so I think you have to help people understand, leaders must understand that, you know, the whole world
09:10
In the United States, Center for Disease Control estimates that over 67 % of all Americans have had at least one adverse childhood experiences. One experience of violence in the community, parents being sick, divorce, poverty, or housing insecurity. And now you're at COVID and everyone's had some kind of trauma. Well, you have to realize that people don't drop their trauma and themselves at the door when they come to work. They bring their whole selves. So we want to be sensitive.
09:40
to try and inform and kind in our conversations and soften, be less apt to judge people and to really try to develop the skills in everyone so that everyone is seen. Yes, let's just zoom in on that communication piece a little bit. You touched on a very good point, which is we always have this impression typically that
10:09
Extroverted people who just talk loud, they are the ones who get the attention, obviously. You know, if you're a leader and there's someone in your team who's introverted, who hardly says much, we tend to think that they don't have much to say or something of value to contribute to the team meeting. And so that's why some leaders will not go to the extent of saying, hey, Melanie, do you have a thought on this?
10:35
And they just think, oh, Melanie's quiet. Everybody knows Melanie's quiet and they just walk away. But you find that sometimes those introverted ones, first of all, their listening is usually much, much better than some of the talkative ones. And therefore you find that they busy processing. And if you actually just nudge them a little bit and say, Hey, what do you think? They might come up with a very brilliant idea. Oh, definitely. Because, know, a leader leaders must understand that.
11:06
They're not always the smartest person in the room. You have to be okay with that. If you're a good leader and if you really want to lead, if you want to lead and leading isn't just that you meet all your goals and KPIs and get your bonuses, it's that you see your team and that you value everyone and seek to uplift everyone. There's a couple of things I see leaders do is one, as we have just discussed,
11:33
They think the loudest voice gets the most attention. We also minimize the person who maybe just likes what they do and they want work-life balance and they understand that to rise the corporate ladder means they don't get some time with their family and they're content and happy with what they do. We don't treat those people well all the time. Well, we just assume there's something wrong with them, they're not motivated, they've been in that position five years, they should be trying to do something different.
12:02
And some organizations do have cultures like that, which I don't think is healthy. But if a person is in the same role for three to five years and they're dismissed and they're not up for the next thing, they're pretty much dismissed. Do they even have a conversation with that person or they just assume, she's not ambitious? Well, it depends on the culture. The cultures really dictate how leaders lead, right? What is considered established norms in that organization. But I think that
12:30
Leaders must and organizations must take a pause and consider how they're treating everyone because good talent is hard to find. And the cost of replacing someone is 52 or two or over $100,000. Because you must train a new person every time. Because you are so right. Some of us don't want to be directors or VPs. If we are content, depending on the level
12:59
on the corporate ladder where you are, that will determine if you get emails and phone calls after hours. And some people wanna just spend time with their families after hours. They don't want emails and phone calls. So they're thinking, you know what? I don't wanna climb that high because when I come home, I want everything to be off and focus on playing with my kids. And you should have that right and that should be celebrated. Also, there are different times in your life. No one has to tell you all the business, but let's consider.
13:29
how many employees are also taking care of their parents because our parents are living longer. I've been taking care of my mother. My mother's 90, but I've been taking care of her for 20 years. Right. Right. And so that for me did influence how I lived or how I directed the later years of my career where I might've wanted to ascend, but I said, I can't do that and take care of her. And I took care of my uncle too who was 91.
13:58
Mm-hmm. And so as a leader, do you listen to this conversation with Dr. Gray and think ah she's not taking into account the fact that we need to be productive and, you know, the business is to make a profit? Oh, you have to look. We need organizations to survive and thrive so that everyone can get their check. It's not being sensitive and kind and being aware does not mean that you're dismissing
14:27
The fact that accountabilities have to be made and metrics have to be met and profit, know, those things have to happen, but it doesn't mean they have to happen without humanity. What does it take to say good morning? Even if you're working virtually to have a virtual huddle. Hey, you guys, I just wanted to have a virtual huddle this morning. I know that, you know, the gas prices are rising. This might be impacting, you know, your bottom line. Think about what we can do to, I want you to know I'm aware of it.
14:57
I'm sensitive to it, it's hard on all of us and we do care. We might be limited as an organization in what we can do, but I want you to know we care. And hey, maybe we'll have a potluck. Let's have a potluck, know, a coffee, a Zoom coffee or something and just, you know, share ideas, a couponing, or just vent, just be a community. And we do care. What does it take to do that? If you're working face to face, what does it take to say, hey,
15:25
If you're anyone who's interested, let's have a pop look lunch and kind of maybe have a coupon clutch. Just something to humanize and be sensitive to what people are experiencing. Right. And if any leader is listening and they think, okay, Dr. Gray, I'm ready to take care of my team members because I know they're going through a lot. Does that mean I give them
15:50
gift cards for a spa once a month, or how does this wellness thing work? Well, you know, whatever you, an organization starts, they have to have the commitment to see it through. So what I do, never, if you can't continue gift cards forever so that everyone has a chance to get one, don't give them. People need, don't just need a gift card, they just need the awareness and the communication that you care and that you see them.
16:19
Wellness is more than yoga, is more than just we're going to have salad, offer a salad bar in the lunch room. It's creating a culture where you encourage people to use their paid time off without punishment. That they can use their PTO without anyone emailing them or texting them. That we encourage people, if their companies have it, to use their employee assistance programs.
16:48
where we have a culture where we have, maybe on Fridays we stop all meetings after noon, after 12 p.m. so people can clean out their email and leave on time for the weekend. oh Maybe we'll on Mondays not start any meetings until noon so people can come in and catch up on priorities. Maybe we will say we'll try to limit the number of meeting blocks in a day so that after one o'clock so people can actually get
17:17
their actual work done because sometimes we pack them so tight with meetings they can't actually do their work. Perhaps we'll have a schedule, and I would encourage a schedule where supervisors, managers, directors can actually have time to do one-on-ones and connect with their team members. You know, sometimes we only connect with people during annual review. And then in some cases, in some companies, those are a joke because it's just, you know, I don't know, you know, wait, what you're...
17:46
Did you show up? Okay, check, check, check. You know, we've got to make things really Not much informing that review now, does it? Because you haven't had a conversation with this person for five or 11 months, depending. And people will say, well, I don't know why they review, but they never saw me. What is the other writing on that review? Yeah, but you know, so I think we have to make experiences real and meaningful.
18:15
And it's not just money that people stay for. They stay for community. They stay for value. They stay. Some people want a balance. They want to find a place where they can have balance because you live, in my opinion, you work to live. You don't live to work. You want to foster an environment where people say, I might want to take a sewing class and I can go do it.
18:44
You you foster it in a violent, people can go volunteer and do more than just work. As I mentioned earlier, Dr. Gray, that I did live in the States for five years back in South Africa. First of all, what shocked me about America was the fact that my country pays four months maternity leave if a woman has had a baby. How many months? Four. Four months after the baby. for the baby? You 12 weeks. On average, 12 weeks. Four months, which would be then 16 weeks for us.
19:13
paid maternity leave. then secondly, when it comes to corporate, I don't know how it is in other industries, but mostly corporate, you get your first year, I remember it was 20 days per year. Two weeks, that's it. Oh, two weeks. 20 working days, which is a full month. And I remember that because if you spend the whole year not using your PTO,
19:41
the company will say back then they used to pay you an extra paycheck for the fact that in a month you have about 20 working days. So if you don't use them at all, have this extra month, so to speak. But now, because they don't want to pay anymore, they force you. Like I remember when my sister came to visit me in Chicago and she had days left, they forced it. They said, don't come back here until you exhausted you because they don't want to pay anymore. But the fact remains that
20:09
That time off, you have to have that time off and you have to take it. You have to be, you should be able to rejuvenate yourself, but you should have a schedule that supports your taking it. People don't take it often because the job doesn't allow it. Well, I'm going to have to get, they're going to text me anyway. They're going to email me anyway. I'm not going to take my paid time off and answer email, right? If they're going to be emailing me anyway. So I think that
20:40
We have to have cultures that really support, let people be off when you're away, you're away. If I get emailed during my time off, do none of my colleagues really don't have an idea of what to do in my absence? Is that even realistic? It's not, but so again, people, we have to have cultures where there's honest, accountability and not fear. I think that often happens.
21:06
when people are afraid to make a decision, they're afraid to step out, it's because you as a leader have not really given them license. So you have to realize how, are you empowering your team or are you micromanaging? Now micromanagement and hypervigilance is another form of burnout. That's a sign of burnout. Because seriously, I cannot think realistically that there's so much that I'm an expert on that no one else in the office knows. And so if I leave,
21:36
They must email me, otherwise nothing happens on the project. That's just not true. But leaders, we create those cultures. We create that. Sometimes, you we teach people how to treat us in life and engage with us at work. So if that's happening, you have to ask yourself why. What have I done to create this? What can I change? oh
22:00
The onus is on the leader to ask those types of questions. one last thing. first of all, let's talk about professionals. If they are listening, if they feel burnt out, what is it that they can do starting today? Starting today, you can stop. If you notice that you're burnt out, you need to stop and scan your body. You have to say, what is happening? Do I find myself being hyper-visual? Is my neck tight and sore?
22:28
Am I not sleeping well? I gaining weight? When I look in the mirror, do I like what I see? And if you don't, then you have to tell yourself the truth about your situation. Is it me and work overworking? Do I need to take some time off? Is this job not a good fit for me anymore? Sometimes we have to plan a pivot. Not that we just abruptly quit, because we know you have to make your bills and that.
22:56
But you need to make another plan. And then you have to own your change and own your no. And you have to prioritize yourself. You have to be willing to, which all comes to stop, STOP, scan, tell yourself the truth, be willing to own what you need to change and to prioritize yourself because you are accountable for your own life, right? Your job isn't. And things do change and we change.
23:26
We have to change how we work at work or change sometimes where we work. Yes Let's do the stop acronym again. I love that scan scan Tell yourself the truth. Oh Your truth I need to make some changes and then prioritize make yourself a priority and put yourself on your calendar that means
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I'm putting myself on my calendar to check out a work at five o'clock or whatever the time is. I'm putting my work, my walk on my calendar, my exercise on my calendar, my sewing class on my calendar. I'm prioritizing me, prioritizing me, my family. I'm going to do such and such with my significant other. You have to create a life. People have to create a life. And I'm just going to say, and scrolling is not a life. That's just another thing. Scrolling is not a life.
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lives. Right. I absolutely love that. Prioritize yourself. You know how even when they talk about finances, they say, you're the one working, pay yourself first. But how often do we do that? It's a habit, right? I think you build certain behaviors into your lifestyle. You have to build them in. Right. Let's talk about leaders. How can they create a culture? We've spoken about what some of the challenges are.
24:53
So then how can they create this culture that is taking care of its team members, that there's communication, that everybody feels seen? Well, it starts from the top. So there are two lenses there. There's the broader organizational lens where the executive leaders are committed to the best for their people.
25:20
And it takes three to five years to actually change behaviors and change cultures. So it takes a real commitment from the organization. But if your organization from the executive side is not there, does it mean that you as a individual leader cannot formulate ways to check in with your team and to validate your team and see the human beings that are under your span of control?
25:50
And it could be as simple as doing a check-in at the beginning of your meetings, trying to get a one-on-one for 15, 20 minutes, at least every quarter with your team, or you block out a day in your month where all you do is check in with people. It could be that you have a drop box where people can just write you personally their concerns. So it doesn't just end up in your work email. It might put it in a drop box that's just...
26:18
for you and your communication with those individuals. So you have to be creative and you have to want it. So one is the organizational commitment from the executive level that they're to drill down into their organization. And then it's the individual leader making that commitment to the people that they serve. Absolutely. Words of wisdom from Dr. Melanie Gray, the registered nurse educator and expert in trauma informed leadership.
26:48
This has been such an eye-opening conversation and I'm sure that most professionals and leaders will benefit so much from your wisdom. Dr. Gray, thank you so much for being here today. Oh, Roberta, thank you for having me. My absolute pleasure. Before you go, where can our listeners and viewers reach you? They can reach me at drmelaniegray.com. That's drmelaniegray.com. And I'm uh also
27:17
on LinkedIn, Melanie Gray PhD from Wisconsin. Yes, the chief state, DrMelanieGray.com. Thank you so much, Dr. Gray. I've enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for having me, Roberta. I appreciate it. My pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe, liberating, review on Apple and Spotify. Stay tuned for more episodes to come.