Speaking and Communicating Podcast

When I work on things for in the future, it opens up a lot more options and it also pulls back defensiveness. If this would happen to you in the future, what is something you might do? One of the biggest issues we have with employees and others in relationship is if I point out what somebody did wrong or with something that's happening, there's just gonna be a built-in defensiveness.
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But if you position it in the future, nobody can get defensive about something that hasn't happened yet. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify.
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live us a rating and a review. Now let's get communicating with our guest today joining us from Massachusetts. Doug Flenner is a CEO, author, and he is here to show us a process that will help us take action, grow, and achieve whatever it is that we set our minds on. He's what if.
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method is something that we are really looking forward to hearing about today during this conversation. And before I go any further, please welcome him to the show. Hi, Doug. Hello, Roberta. Hello. How are you doing over there? Very good. Beautiful morning with a wonderful host. I'm ready to go. Ready to roll indeed. Welcome. Thank you, Doug. When you talk about.
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the fact that sometimes we know better, but what is that missing link of us doing better? Good question, right from the start here. So, you know, I think one of the things that I have kind of come to see in my life is I think one of the biggest impediments is the perspective that we bring into things. So my work is helping people change their perspectives and their options in the moment. So I think one of the things that
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and it's a very learnable skill is can we start to see things from a little bit of a different angle, from a different perspective. And so I think one of the things that happens and happens at work, happens in home, right? That we are made up of all of our experiences and all of our moments in life. So often our habits and our reactions and all that just are almost come up automatically. So on autopilot. so when we're able to interrupt those moments,
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and start to find a different perspective that really creates growth career wise and in relationships and anywhere else. Right. The options part, you know how we say, I have no choice, Doug, I had to do it or I'm stuck. I have no other way out. What questions are we not asking or what options do we not think are available at the moment when we say those things?
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Yeah, I mean, the first thing I always remind people is doing nothing is an option. It's a choice as long as you've looked at what are my other possibilities. And that's why my whole question and use of question what if, you know, most of time when we use what if we're looking backwards, right? So it's like, huh, with regret, what if I hadn't studied that college? What if I hadn't gone to Chicago? What if, you know, so it's all these things that look backwards so often with regret.
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or it can sometimes look to forward and where it's already created judgment. And so I think what if can do is start to open up to just says, what are the other possibilities that are here? And there are always more options. And see, if you believe that, then when your mind out of habit says, well, I have no choice, there's nothing I can do it. Yeah, there is always more options. You just have to.
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Interrupt your thinking and find that way to find them So it starts with just a belief you always have an option and so when our mind tells us we don't we have to tell to Shh Shh, that's old thinking. Yeah, there's more options. There is more options So the what if which we usually do the regret or no, what if I am going to Chicago? But also please come back to the the what if looking forward what do we do sometimes?
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We say, if this fails or what if something goes wrong? Oh, if we're using it incorrectly? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think why they forward can often comes into catastrophizing again and just telling us this won't work out. You know, when I do some coaching and consulting with people in companies, they so often will just say, that, well, that won't work. And the only thing I will just say is if you haven't tried it, how do you Right.
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But most of the time we stop ourselves because we think, you know, it's going to fail. And so why do it if it's going to fail? But we haven't tried that particular method. So we don't know for sure that it will fail. Absolutely. And quite often, maybe what failed in the past, you and your surrounding, your world is not at that same place too. So sometimes when someone says, well, that didn't work. Well, maybe that didn't work specifically in the way you did something.
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Or it just didn't work because of the timing. You know, so what if today? And so we'll talk about how to actually put this into a really usable format, but it really, again, it just starts with the ability to just kind of stop that automatic reaction and thinking that you have years, a lifetime of buildup and to interrupt that. now Doug, the question is, how did you have all this wisdom, this what if system and
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being able to look at things differently and knowing that, there's more options than the typical average person thinks there are. Well, unfortunately, it seems that most wisdom only comes from age. ah True. I'd rather have less age and less wisdom. But this whole process came about. But I always joked that I could have probably been voted least likely to succeed in my senior class. I was a class clown.
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I didn't work hard, but I was voted witty as of my senior class. at least they did see something in me. But one of the things I discovered is, is I was kind of a quitter. So like I quit college, I quit relationships and started very early. I started using drugs and started drinking around 13 years old, 12, 13 years old. And so it became such a pattern of my life. And in my twenties, I ended up living down in South Florida. This was in the eighties.
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When there was Miami Vice days, younger people go ahead and YouTube it. You'll see what that was. People are like, oh yeah, I'm old enough, Doug. We used to watch that. Yes, yes. My dad loved You outed yourself, not me. Obviously, I was living a Jimmy Buffett song. I owned a business with my father and it was a marine supply store. So we supplied boat supplies and many of my customers were drug runners.
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They would run drugs into South Florida from the Bahamas and other points. So I was stealing from this family business and I wasn't a good person. was morally, spiritually, just financially bankrupt. So I'd been stealing from this business for years and my father couldn't figure out why this business wasn't working. One day after a big party one night, I decided I would just kind of take off.
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and run away. You know, that's what everybody should do in their late twenties, run away from home. But to make a long story short, the thing is I had this moment where I knew I'd woke up in the morning. I couldn't open my eyes because I was so hung over. You know, that moment where you're not sure where you are when you wake up. And all of a sudden I heard on a speaker, uh, we'll be landing at Houston international. I had actually woke up in the center seat of an airplane with no idea how I'd gotten there.
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No idea how you got into the plane. have no idea. This was pre 9 11. I'm about to say, which makes sense during those times, the security wasn't as stringent. Yeah, I remember. I eventually figured out, right. I paid cash for the ticket, which now they would have been a flag. I drove to the airport in a blackout, something I'm not proud of. And so I woke up on this airplane. I put my hand in my pocket and I had a big wad of cash and I'd stolen the last of the family business money.
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I was just like, oh my gosh. And so I woke up kind of panicked. I landed and just my brother lived in the area. I called him and he's like, oh man, dad is mad at you. I'm like, you think? So I had to go home. I had to fly back, face him. And where I'm going with this story is I realized that I needed to get him off my back. I didn't really want to quit drinking. I didn't want to quit doing drugs, but I needed the problems to go away. I tried out some 12 step recovery meeting.
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I was meeting one night with a guy, it only a couple of weeks, and I'm so overwhelmed because my life is so messed up. I mean, I had caused it, but I was broke, this business was failing, my family was upset with me, I had lost everything I'd ever done. And I was talking to this guy one night, and I'm telling him, I gotta do this, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. And this guy just stopped me and he says, what if today all you had to do was not have a drink, not have a drug? That's all you gotta do.
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So he said that, if now I'd love to tell you that I understood what was happening at that moment, but I didn't. And so when I to write my most recent book, one of the things I realized is that every time change in growth happened to me, something big like stop drinking and drugging, changing jobs, or even something small like the relationship with my wife. What I come to understand is that there was an interruption in the pattern and that interruption, which I would now call just the pause.
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is just so powerful for driving change. So is it the pause on the autopilot on us just doing everything without even thinking? So is that the interruption? Yeah, think the interruption can happen many times. So what I teach, what I call the what if rule, the first step is pause, right? Because we want to be able to use it to ourselves. And that pause can be before I react, your kid rolls their eyes at you.
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or in a relationship or the boss or the coworker says some side comment, right? And so the pause can just stop that interruption. And then also I teach is right, how you start your day. If you start your day with a pause to really kind of think about who you want to be that day, what do you want to do? You can also do it in a meeting. One of my favorite stories for the listeners is we were in a meeting one time, was director of retail for Bose.
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Everybody's talking. We're all trying to, you know, bah, bah, bah, bah, big meeting and a guy by the name of Pete, he raises his hand. goes, excuse me, what problem are we trying to solve? And what you realized was that the people in that room were all trying to solve a different problem. Oh my. So what Pete did though, right? Is he paused the meeting. He paused everyone's thinking and just gathered them. So the power of the pause and the interruption can just happen. And sometimes interruptions are forced on you.
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You know, again, maybe your spouse says they want a divorce or you lose your job. And so sometimes these interruptions can be really big, but it's the same spot. It's the same spot as in that's when you should pause. And like you said, you don't have to feel like you need to take action immediately. Cause I think sometimes we have this propensity to say, how do I fix this? I know that's one of my things is like,
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churchy puty, give me a solution to this. Cause I needed to go away. need to solve this problem instead of just sit with it for a while. Sometimes just pause. Yeah. And as you use mother words, I'd say, right. Sometimes to sit with it, right. Because when we immediately move and it's right, it's, kind of a flight fighter flight happens to us. So we just jump right in. So the challenge is we go from what happened to what we should do that.
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moment again is more of a reaction and we don't see different perspectives and the options that are before us. Right? So reactions are just a buildup of our life experience and stories. Uh, we've told ourselves or others have given us, you know, sometimes your first reaction would have been right, but instead of having one option, I'll just do this. There might be three or four and you know, there's times in our lives where something
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really rough happens, like say you lose your job and then, you oh my God, but if you stop and say, okay, well, what if this moment is a good thing? What if this is a moment to change my career? What if this is a moment to find a better company? Right? And so you can just take that one moment and with the pause and then start to move to a what if it starts to give you all kinds of different perspective and options. that moment. you do talk about this, that sometimes
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The mistake we make is that we make decisions when the emotions are high. Yeah, absolutely. I used to know this guy, Kenny. I used to think maybe Kenny had a little wrong with his thinking because whenever he went to think he would stop and I'd be like hanging on his word. And what I realized is, is that what Kenny learned to do was to stop and almost gather his thoughts and not always do that first reaction.
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And I think, right, if we think about most of our relationship problems, 99%, I don't know what the percent, but high percentage of issues in relationships aren't our actions, right? It's our emotional reactions. Please say that again. In relationships, especially the majority of our issues are not the actions that we've done. It's the reactions that we have. You know, that split second.
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And so again, if you're able to pause and then ask yourself, well, what if she's right? What if I did make a mistake? What if she just doesn't understand what I meant to do? I think defensiveness in relationships at work with colleagues, with our boss, other departments. So that defensiveness, it's that immediately the pushback rather than, well, maybe they're right. Just because I made a mistake.
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doesn't mean I'm a, I don't know my job, I'm a bad person, right? But emotion, as you were mentioning, is that defensiveness and that's our reaction and to protect ourselves. And the thing with being emotionally on a high is you start seeing things you're gonna regret that you cannot take back and it just goes downhill from there. No doubt. You know, and think one of the things I've learned is if I get emotional,
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The moment I feel that, you you can just feel it. know, I used to work with a guy once who his poor face was like a thermometer. Anytime he was feeling something, you could just see the red move up his face. So at least you knew when you were upsetting him. I felt bad for the guy. I also wanted to play poker with him because I bet I could take all his money. You know, his face. Right. He just he couldn't do it. But, know, the problem is the minute.
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we react like that. It almost, it's never becoming about the moment or the mistake or the email or whatever. And it almost always then becomes about the person and you can't change anything. I can't change anything in you, but I can help you change the moment we're in. And it diverts from the issue as well. You know how they say, especially when they talk about married couples and they say,
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When you fight, are you fighting about the issue and you're on the same side of it or are you fighting each other? No doubt. And this is where the pause and the what if question comes in is it can go so much from he left the windows car windows down to then you just remind him that he doesn't refill the salt shaker. Right. They're not related at all. But well, I guess we can't say they're related, right? Because it's about his flaws.
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or what the person in their relationship sees as the flaws. I just know is that the minute it becomes about someone, somebody's gonna be defensive and you're just not gonna achieve what you want to achieve. Yeah. Now let's talk about this process, because I'm really curious. When you explore your options and you say what if, like you said, a lot of the time we live on autopilot and
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because of our experiences, does that mean that even when I sit down and I try to explore some options, that I might just think of two or three that I typically would think of? Is my brain going to expand and think of other possibilities I might not have considered before? Yeah, I think if you go looking for it, that's probably the big difference.
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You know, earlier, you'd mention, have no choices or this is my only choice. I know from years of coaching and consulting, I can come in with a fresh perspective and probably give you four or five options that you never even considered. You know, I think the what if rule can help you discover how to kind of do that on your own. So again, if you can ask, know, so what if this is an opportunity?
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I mean, the minute you have a problem, most people want to go to a solution. Well, you know, a fast solution. So instead of a problem, just even asking, what, what if this is an opportunity? What if this is telling me I need to do something a little bit different? Yeah. I always look at it as like, right. Is this, so if we look at something head on, this is what we're used to seeing all the time. Right. But if I can teach myself to look at it from different sides, this is where I can find more options.
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And so it's not reacting so fast or want to fix so fast, but you can ask those questions. The reason I really love this what if, because what I discovered is I was doing it a lot with clients is when you ask questions with what if it gives you permission. You don't have to be right. And you don't have to decide anything. What if is just an opening the door of really, you know, it's another way to say, you know, consider something different.
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Because I'm wondering, especially with that process, if you haven't gotten to a point where you're as good as Doug in coming up with five different options, let's say, for instance, if I ask my very close friend, and not to tell them that this is what I'm going through, whatever, is this something I can do where I can say to them, you know what, what options would you exploit if you were going through such and such and such? You know, not tell them what's going on with me personally, but.
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ask other people how they, cause their life experience might feed them a different perspective and say, okay, oh, if I was in that position, this is what I'll do in Europe. Option three. Is that something that's an option as well? I definitely think it is. One of the things I've always found is that when I work on things for in the future, right. It opens up a lot more options and it also pulls back defensiveness.
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You know, if I would say, so if this would happen to you in the future, what is something you might do? When I talk with employees and so any manager is listening, you know, I think one of the biggest issues we have with employees and others in relationship is if I point out what somebody did wrong or with something that's happening, there's just going to be a built-in defensiveness. But if you position it in the future, nobody can get defensive about something that hasn't happened yet.
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For managers to me, that's the biggest lesson I can give you. Position all your conversations in the future instead of saying, don't do this. Hey, in the future, do this. It just changes things dramatically. You know, and I think sometimes you might even ask, so if you were facing this, what are three things you might potentially be able to do? Yeah. As we've talked, the first one or two is just what's already baked in. If I can get you to three or four. Coming back again.
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I'm going to do the same thing I've done in the last 50 years. So nothing's going to be different. It might help to get a fresh perspective and hopefully somebody neutral. Like I said, not even tell them that I'm going through stuff, you know, just say, if you're in this position, what would you consider doing? And if I want to take it another couple levels, when they give you an answer, I think the best thing you can ask is why. And then let them answer and then ask.
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Why again? You know, when you ask why about three times, right? You really could get you down to, you know, some real core things because we have a tendency to write, to focus on the symptom, not the real core of the problem. Yes. The root cause. I'm a big believer in asking at least three wise. Be careful. It can be annoying to spouse or somebody. Read the room.
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when you ask you three questions. But it's a great one to use in meetings, in business, because it really helps them drill down. And I think that's a lesson that lot of people, managers can teach employees is to making sure we're going to root causes, not symptoms. That at least has a long time impact. Now back to when you were at that meeting and they said to you, what if starting today, no drink, no drugs.
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What happened within you and what did you tell yourself moving forward from that moment? Back in the day when they said to you at the AA meeting, know, Doug, what if starting today, no more drugs, no more drinking. What was going on within you when you heard that? What did you tell yourself? Because you said that was the defining moment. That's when things started to go a different direction. Yeah. Well, and just a small tweak in language, but the reason it worked is
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He said, well, what if today? Right. So that was huge for me. 28 years old, my whole life, my whole identity was around party, staying up all night. And I just couldn't imagine life without drinking and drugs, even with all this destruction that I'd caused. And so what I wanted to do was I'm telling him, Oh, I got to go get a job. I got to go do this. I got to do that. And what he was trying to do was just
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kind of bring me narrow down my thought is here. What if today you just went for a drink and a drug? You can start to work on a job or whatever, but he really also kind of put those priorities right in front of me. If he had said, well, you know, what if you just never drank again? I'd be like, out of here, right? Now I came to my own belief that I just could no longer drink again, but I wasn't ready for it then, that's for sure. Him saying today did it also give you a mental image of
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how different your life would be starting today by him saying that. I think what did give me that is, and I think this is a powerful example again, that can be applicable outside of this kind of recovery is that what I saw in the people was that they could be live a life and be happy in a life that I couldn't imagine at all. I always joke, you know, one of the first things I did was quit drinking as I sold my boat. Cause I knew you couldn't.
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own a boat and not drink. that's, remove the temptation, Doug. I just say they went hand in hand, right? Right. And I'm just going to kind of equate it to a kind of a work example. People talk about work-life balance all the time. Well, you can't say it right. But when people see that you can be an engaged parent, you can be at home that you're somebody who doesn't answer emails at four 30 in the morning or middle of the night.
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When people can see that, then they can picture it. And I think how we live our lives for others shows way more than what we tell them about how to do it. Absolutely. The example is more powerful than just what we say. got to practice that. Yeah. And for most of time, there's a big gap between them, right? Especially if you can kind of work life balance. Even today. And you'd think after COVID, we might have learned that, you know what?
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Actually, productivity doesn't mean that you have to sit for longer hours in the office. But that's a whole lot of conversation. Oh, that's a hot button right now, especially. As people are being pulled back in the office more and more. Absolutely. Now, Doug, anyone listening and wanting to, like you said, start to not act on autopilot whenever we are faced with a situation instead of reacting? So we're going to pause.
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Please tell us again how to explore these options, potential what if scenarios. And we didn't talk as much, but it was kind of baked into what we're talking about. So, right. The three steps of the what if rule is pause question and then go. Just want to make sure we get on that third one. remember what we've been talking about is not trying to have a different mindset. It's about changing what you do. And so I think that third element of go is just so important.
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A lot of people think through a lot of things and then they just don't do anything. Right. And so if nothing changes, nothing changes. course. Most of us want clarity before we take action, but it's action that actually creates clarity. So most of us have it backwards. So we have it backwards. Is it like a faith action thing? Yeah. I mean, you could say that. Sure. Yeah. You, you know, you don't have more faith than take act and you act your way into more faith.
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But here's the thing, wouldn't that also be an example of, especially if it's this new kind of option in your way of doing things? It's also the, this is not so in my comfort zone. Because you've taught us today to explore these other potential what ifs that we are not used to. But then if I have to go, I'm going to do something that I haven't done before, Doug. It's a little scary. Very much so. But I think the thing is, is that we think way out there.
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of what the end result is supposed to look like. And so it's scary because we think we're going to fail. We don't think we're going to fail on the first step. We think we're going to fail 50 steps away. And my thing might be, is there might be two whys in your steps, At step 10. And you completely go another direction. I don't know about you, but if I had said, here's the life I want, only give me the life I want.
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I wouldn't have so many of the good things in my life today because I didn't know that I wanted them. Exactly. Exactly. And so when you end up in a city, you don't plan to stay in, you know, but you end up somewhere, right? It changes. You're in a good way, but you don't know that at the moment. I think when, you feel like you're out of your comfort zone, I think the chances are that you're thinking way too far of what's going to be the outcome.
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versus just this first step. And so if you think about it, like my comfort level is not speaking up in meetings. Well, why do I not speak in meetings? Because I clearly can speak, right? I don't want to be judged. I don't want people to think this. I don't want people to think that, right? So you're out of the moment versus that first step of, well, you know what? In today's meeting, I'm going to speak up first. So is that out of your comfort zone?
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Yeah, maybe, but it's a lot easier if you're not thinking about all the ramifications that may or may not be true. Do you find that when you coach your clients with the goal step, they find that challenging? They don't because I place pretty much all my work on immediate change. You don't have to take four hour course to change what's happening. Four hour course might give you a lot of information, but the problem is there's no go.
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Right. So my work is in getting people to look at the moments in their life, right? Your sales are not where you want them to be. Well, what is something we can do right now? This moment to change that. And I always believe there's a moment and that moment when you lead that, if you're a manager or whatever, it will change you at the same time. Real growth happens in moments. They don't happen in courses and books.
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or in a grandiose scheme of things. think sometimes that's what we're waiting for. We're waiting for this big life-defining moment when everything comes together and it's a perfect, not a perfect storm, because that's a disaster, everything. You know what I mean? When I think, I've had these goals and plans and I've put this together for the last five years. Now it's the culmination of everything.
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I think subconsciously we always wait for that instead of, like you said, the moments, the moments. Yes, that very first step. And what does hold us back? It's fear, what people will think, or sometimes, right, it's very external. It's the messages we were given growing up that, you know, we don't do those sort of, we're not like those people. It's all that old programming that's inside. And the only thing that changes it is taking action.
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I wrote a different book two years ago called the day makes the year makes a life. And one of my premise in there is, that all success is created in the day and today, not tomorrow, not next week, not month, not next year today. It's what I do today. That's going to create that success. And that doesn't mean financial success necessarily can be, or it can also be career success, but it can also be relationship success. It can be peace of mind, serenity, but it's what I do in the moment. And today that matters.
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Not the, I'm waiting for when things become perfect, then I'll be. Cause sometimes that's the mistake we make. Yeah. If a client brings me a three year plan, I'm just like, okay, we shouldn't work together. uh Okay. I'll work with you on a three hour plan. Right. And I'm being a little, a little out there, but the thing would be is, you know, you don't have three years. The world is changing so fast right now.
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Right? With AI and the world economy and it's what you do today that's going to make the difference. Not the three year plan. Absolutely, Doug. Any last words of wisdom? Anything I haven't asked you, you were hoping to share with our listeners today? No, I think, you know, I would just say is, uh I want people to have this framework. If they go to startwithwhatif.com that will give you a 44 page excerpt of my book at no cost.
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And it gives you the complete frame start with what a framework. You don't need the entire book to get started. I mean, I'd love for you to buy the book and it's available on Amazon Barnes and Noble around the world. If you'll go with that, we go right there. Start with what if.com. I'll give you everything that we talked about and more. Thank you, Doug. Flanner the freebie, the 44 page excerpt of the book. Start with what if we are so appreciative today of you being here. Thank you so much for sharing your.
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three-step process and your very powerful story. We appreciate you Doug. Thanks. Thank you. My pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify and stay tuned for more episodes to come.