Speaking and Communicating Podcast

00:00

Speaker 1
I think courage is the biggest thing, because it's your job. It- that actually is the job of a leader, is to be the one who has those difficult conversations. Think of any leader you admire. Can you imagine them shying away from having a difficult conversation? Probably not.
00:16

Speaker 2
(music plays) Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. By the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now, let's get communicating. Now, let's get communicating with our guest today. Joining us from Jersey, Marin Perry is the founder and COO of Arden Coaching. She specializes in the human side of leadership and is here to help us navigate difficult conversations. And before I go any further, please welcome her to the show. Hi, Marin.
01:12

Speaker 1
Hi, Roberta. Thank you so much for having me.
01:15

Speaker 2
My absolute pleasure. Welcome to the show. Of all the things you decided you wanted to address, what is it about difficult conversations that you found so appealing?
01:29

Speaker 1
So we work with large organizations throughout the US and around the world, and if I could give them one gift, if I could wrap it in a box and just hand an organization a gift, most consistently, I would give them the ability to have difficult conversations better, because I find that most organizations are pretty bad at this, because most people are bad at it. And so, you know, we are the organizations, and most people don't wanna have difficult conversations. That's why they're called difficult. So people shy away from them, and I think it has a huge impact throughout the organization, not only in one-on-one relationships, but really throughout the whole organization.
02:09

Speaker 2
And why is that? Is it just us being human?
02:13

Speaker 1
Well, yeah, we- we don't like being uncomfortable. Difficult conversations are uncomfortable. If I have to tell someone something that I suspect they won't like, I shy away from it. I find mostly people are ... Well, two things. They're worried about hurting someone's feelings, right? They're worried about how that person is going to take the information. But they also don't want to have to deliver it, right?
02:35

Speaker 1
(laughs)
02:35

Speaker 2
Yes. (laughs)
02:35

Speaker 1
They don't wanna be the person to have that conversation, so-
02:38

Speaker 2
Get someone else to do it.
02:39

Speaker 1
What is so ironic is that most workers, most employees, all the way up through very senior levels, they are craving feedback, and they want to know how they can do better. They don't want you sitting on information that they would find useful. They don't want you secretly thinking they're doing a terrible job or not telling you that, uh, you're inappropriately dressed or that you should speak differently in meetings, right? People want that information. They don't wanna secretly, like, find out that you've been holding something back. And yet, when it comes to having those conversations, most of us shy away from it, because we're hesitant that we're going to damage the relationship or hurt someone's feelings.
03:22

Speaker 2
Yes, especially as grown-ups, we always think, "You know what? Just give me all the cards I'm being dealt so that I can make an informed decision." So when you find out that Marin actually held some information back that could have been useful, yes, that is very triggering.
03:41

Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna know in, like, my exit interview that actually you think I wasn't doing a great job, even though you wrote "exceeds expectations" on all of my performance reviews. We definitely have that happen with some clients, where the culture is such that I'm supposed to praise you and tell you that you're doing a great job, and so I put generally not even "meets expectations" but "exceeds expectations" consistently on your review. And yet you're not getting promoted, and you don't understand why not, right? Because every bit of evidence that you have says I'm doing great. (laughs) Right?
04:17

Speaker 1
Uh-
04:17

Speaker 2
It's very confusing, yeah.
04:19

Speaker 1
Super confusing. Nobody wants to be in that position, and yet nobody wants to deliver tough news or what could be considered, you know, constructive feedback. So I think it's ironic that we all crave it, and yet we don't want to offer it.
04:35

Speaker 2
Now, let's look at leadership for a second when it comes to handling difficult conversations. One of the things that we address is, first of all, leaders, when they are promoted, they're not equipped with communication skills in general.
04:50

Speaker 1
Agree.
04:50

Speaker 2
And then you add the layer of conflict resolution. Then you add the layer of difficult conversations. So how do they get to that level when even just basic informing your team, showing them what the vision is, because they even struggle with that?
05:09

Speaker 1
Yes, yes. Well, I think that what you've uncovered is a systemic challenge, because often people are promoted because they're really good at a subject matter expertise, right? You're a great accountant, and you get promoted to lead other accountants. You're a great marketer. You get promoted to lead other marketers. That doesn't mean you're a great leader. It means you're a great marketer, right? So I think that how we promote people is a challenge, because they do get to leadership roles, and then they're responsible for all these people, and that's a totally different set of skills than what got them there. If they're a great marketer, accountant, or, um, whatever their- their expertise is, they get promoted to a place where to be successful as a leader and lead your team requires different skills than perhaps why you were promoted, because you were the best creative on the team or the best accountant on the team.
06:02

Speaker 1
So I think the promotion process is a bit of a problem there to start. But you have to practice. You have to study. You have to be curious and try to learn how to do it better, to answer your question of-How do they get better at it? You gotta practice like everybody else and everything else. You have to develop a skill. We actually talk about the five Cs of having difficult conversations, and what you need to think about when you go into those conversations. Some of it is a skill. You can actually practice it.
06:32

Speaker 2
Hmm.
06:32

Speaker 1
And then some of it is a mindset where, you know, you have to be willing.
06:36

Speaker 2
That's right. Speaking of being a subject matter expert, and then you say, "Okay. You're promoted now to look after the other accountants," isn't one of the things that happens if you're an expert is that sometimes you get handed a project that you oversee, or sometimes you have clients who say, "I will only give you guys this project if Marin is the one handling it"?
07:02

Speaker 1
Right.
07:02

Speaker 2
And then you have this responsibility of dealing one-on-one with the client, rather than your boss. So are there any skills, even while you are in that individual contributor position, that you can then add to and take with to the next level if you do get promoted to a leadership position?
07:25

Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, that's partially about being willing to have the difficult conversation with the client perhaps, right? I'm an executive coach myself, but I don't do any of the delivery anymore. And even last week, I had a, a previous client who said, "I have a friend, and I'd really like you to take them on personally." Right? I have to have a conversation with him about how my team is way better suited at this point to take on that high-level client. So, my challenges as the previous individual contributor, right, 15 years ago, I was doing that coaching myself. I now have to have that conversation with the client and empower my team and delegate to my team so that someone else has the opportunity to take that on. It's not always easy, right?
08:14

Speaker 1
People want to work with the person they're familiar with or the person-
08:17

Speaker 2
Yes.
08:17

Speaker 1
... who did it last time, right? But if you can assure them that you will have oversight and that you are monitoring what the team is doing, there's a chance that you can hand that off effectively.
08:28

Speaker 2
Yes.
08:28

Speaker 1
But that's challenging it, right?
08:29

Speaker 2
It is, especially if the client has had a long-term relationship with the organization. They tend to start having recommendations and, you know, expressing what, how they would like to see things been done going forward and who they would like to work with.
08:48

Speaker 1
Yes. And I mean, every company is going to have to navigate that in their own way. I know plenty of organizations who just put their most senior person on that engagement, right? They just accommodate the client. That's what they want on that engagement, that's who they get. And sometimes that is completely the thing to do, you know, as a consultant or as an outside eye. But I think that can be a challenge when you've been an individual contributor, and as you say, you move into that more senior role.
09:15

Speaker 2
So now let's talk about the conversations. You gave examples of, you know, "I don't wanna find out at my exit interview that I was, you know, dressing inappropriately or-"
09:26

Speaker 1
Right. (laughs)
09:26

Speaker 2
(laughs) "I used bad language or inappropriate behavior," and things like that. When it happens, so before, let, let's say before the interview, and you're still part of the company, if something happens, what is the best way to approach the situation for them to bring it to your attention?
09:47

Speaker 1
You mean, uh, how do I ask for it, or if something happens that I want to bring up to someone?
09:51

Speaker 2
If, yeah. So I dress inappropriately and you want-
09:55

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
09:55

Speaker 2
... to bring that to my attention. How do you approach the conversation in a strategic way so that ... Sometimes they're afraid to hurt my feelings and whatnot-
10:05

Speaker 1
Yeah.
10:06

Speaker 2
... and offend me. You know, people get offended a lot.
10:08

Speaker 1
Yeah.
10:09

Speaker 2
While addressing the issue and making sure that I also, you know, don't feel demoralized, 'cause then-
10:15

Speaker 1
Yeah.
10:15

Speaker 2
... it might even affect my productivity?
10:18

Speaker 1
First of all, coming from the right place is very helpful. You know, check yourself as to why you're bringing up the topic, right? Is this something that will serve someone? Is it something that will support them and help them? That is certainly the foundation of having the difficult conversation. If you're just trying to embarrass someone, it's not a difficult conversation, right? (laughs) The difficulty comes when you don't want to offend them, you want them to be productive. Um, so I think checking yourself that way. So on my part, it requires some courage. I have to be willing to be uncomfortable, right?
10:51

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
10:51

Speaker 1
Let's say I'm your boss. I have to be willing to be uncomfortable in that conversation. But you know what? That's my job. That's where I have to, you know, put my big girl panties on and make sure I have the conversation that not everybody would wanna have. I think that you wanna do it in an appropriate time, right? If someone is particularly upset or having a tough day, probably, you know, your emotional intelligence will tell you that's probably not the time to, uh, broach the conversation. And then all the things that you probably already know. You don't wanna do it in public, right? You wanna have a private conversation with someone. But I think mostly you want to make sure you're speaking to them from their side of the table. You know, we talk about that as the C, th- one of the five Cs is being collaborative, right?
11:37

Speaker 1
So that you are on the same side of the table as they are, so that you're not confronting them, uh, like, across the table-
11:43

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
11:43

Speaker 1
... but you're essentially with them and saying, you know, "Hey, I noticed something." And you wanna get their buy-in. "I noticed something the other day that made me think it was something that you, you'd wanna know about. Is it okay if I share that with you?" If you're genuinely trying to help them and you have that tone of voice, I don't know many people who are gonna say, "You know what? No. I don't want that." "You noticed something I might wanna hear?" "No. I don't wanna know about it." Right? So you've gotten their buy-in. You wanna make sure you have their permission to share, and then you wanna give them the feedback. And this is where I think you need to be clear. That's another one of the Cs. You wanna be clear and not hedge your bets and not use super hesitant language or be too tentative. You wanna be clear, kind-... but clear to say, "Hey, you know, I noticed that what you were wearing the other day seemed really unusual.
12:37

Speaker 1
It was surprising to me that you would wear that cropped top to our board meeting," right? And then it gives the other person a chance to say, "Oh my goodness, I spilled coffee all over myself right before, I, I was so embarrassed, I didn't have anything else to do." Right? You give them the opportunity to actually share their side of it, because you're coming from assuming positive intent-
13:01

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
13:01

Speaker 1
... and giving them the chance to share their side of that story, rather than just come and say, "You know what? What you wore the other day was really inappropriate." That is a much more assertive and aggressive, could be seen as aggressive on the other side, as opposed to easing into it and giving them a chance to contribute.
13:22

Speaker 2
Right. So the first example is, "Please help me understand," whereas the other one is, "Who wears a crop top to a board room? What were you thinking?" (laughs)
13:33

Speaker 1
(laughs) Yeah, and with your girlfriends, that may be a totally appropriate thing to say, right? But if you're the boss and you're coming to the conversation-
13:39

Speaker 2
Right.
13:39

Speaker 1
... you know, you wanna leave a little bit more space for someone. And I think there's a balance between leaving space to be wrong, right? I wanna leave space for someone to say, "I spilled coffee all over myself and I was super embarrassed. I never wanna do that again." You know? (laughs)
13:55

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
13:55

Speaker 1
Um, leaving space for that and to learn and understand where they're coming from. You know, some of the literature talks about talking tentatively, right? That's what that's talking about, is, like, leaving space for the other person and leaving space for my assumptions to be wrong. On the other hand, you don't wanna talk so tentatively that someone leaves the conversation not knowing what the heck just happened and what you j- were trying to tell them. Right? I think that's where being courageous comes in. And you have to be able, at some point, to say, "You know, I'm, I'm concerned that some people might have taken that as being dressed inappropriately." As opposed to your example of, like, "What were you thinking wearing that?" And...
14:33

Speaker 1
(laughs)
14:33

Speaker 2
You know better, Mary, right? (laughs)
14:35

Speaker 1
Right, you know better than that. And, you know, this is where you have to take the relationship into account, because you may be able to say that to some people, and that, for them, is a way to feel connected to you. You may be able to say that to some people, maybe not so much at work. But, uh, you know, you have to take the relationship into account, too. If you, you know someone is easily upset or, you know, very concerned about, in this case, their appearance, you wanna be sensitive to that, as opposed to someone that you have a very jovial, joking relationship with, and-
15:08

Speaker 2
Right.
15:08

Speaker 1
... you know, you might be able to say something closer, "Oh my goodness, that top, what were you thinking?" Right? (laughs)
15:13

Speaker 2
This is why they say leadership is hard, because in this example alone, you see that this wasn't addressed the moment that it was happening. We just assume that they actually sat in the meeting dressed inappropriately. Because a l- as a leader, don't you think that just as they walk in with a crop top, so you don't say something at all at that moment to display some form of emotional intelligence? You wait to-
15:39

Speaker 1
Oh, sure, you absolutely can.
15:41

Speaker 2
... speak to them in private, u- uh, in private to say, "Can I talk to you for a second after the meeting?" There's so many nuances to this. A lot of leaders would be excited that, "I got promoted, I'm getting all the perks and the car allowances, et cetera," but then when they say, "You know what? This dealing with people part is the hardest."
16:01

Speaker 1
That's right. (laughs) That's right, the numbers or the marketing becomes the easiest piece, I think. But you're right. In the example I gave, that was pretty extreme. You probably wouldn't let someone walk in with a crop top (laughs) into a board meeting. But, you know, i- in terms of, like, addressing something maybe a little more subtle, you might be able to wait and, and do it later. But yeah, I think you're right, that the social awareness and the understanding of what the consequences are in the moment, like, "Is it worse for me to take that person out in the hall and lose that entire presentation or possibly embarrass them? Do I have a substitute outfit for that?" (laughs) You know, like, "What can I do right now to solve this problem?" Versus the consequence of waiting till later.
16:39

Speaker 1
You're always balancing those things, I think, as a leader, and it does take a nuanced understanding, because in that situation alone, you're talking about understanding the consequence with the board, understanding the consequence to the company, understanding the consequence to the individual, and understanding the consequence to you as someone who has, you know, maybe vouched for this person to give a presentation, right? You are balancing an incredible number of potential consequences, and they're not even certain, right? You don't know what the consequence would be. You have suspicions and assumptions and practical guesses, but you don't really know. So you're trying to balance all of that uncertainty in any moment. And this is a ridiculous example of someone walking into a board meeting with a crop top, right?
17:24

Speaker 2
Right. (laughs)
17:24

Speaker 1
As opposed to something where you still have all of that uncertainty in decisions that leaders are making every day about something that may be way more consequential than that, right?
17:35

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
17:35

Speaker 1
And they are still balancing all of that nuance, all of those consequences, and trying to prioritize, "What is the critical thing for me to make a decision on in this moment? What decision will I make on that with all the possible outcomes, of all those uncertain nuances?"
17:53

Speaker 2
Yes. And now let's talk about two actual things that have happened in the last few years and how leaders could have, have addressed those difficult conversations. The first one is the layoffs that came from COVID. You've had-
18:09

Speaker 1
Hmm.
18:10

Speaker 2
... a team that's been loyal, and they would go the extra mile for you, and suddenly you have to address them and announce the fact that there's been changes and some people will be let go. And then the second one is, which has been happening in the last year or two, where leaders are saying, "Okay, now you guys are so used to working from home, you're gonna have to come back."
18:33

Speaker 1
Oh, gosh, we have so many clients who have done both those things, and they are not easy.
18:37

Speaker 2
(laughs)
18:39

Speaker 1
I think layoffs are the hardest, personally. I think that leaders relate to that as a failure, often, that they have failed, or that the company has failed because they cannot keep these people. And this is a little bit different than just, like, we merged and someone is brutally cutting people they don't know, right? I- I'm talking about your example with COVID, where people have been loyal, and this is a matter of saving the company or saving those jobs. And it's a terrible situation for people to find themselves in. They ... I will guarantee you, no one sits on the- the leader's side of that conversation with joy. But it is a necessary consequence, right? If you're going to save the company, that's the difficult conversation that has to happen.
19:23

Speaker 1
HR will give you 17 different things that you're supposed to say, but the thing that I have found most useful for our clients is when they understand that this is a turning point for this person, but it is not necessarily a terrible turning point for this person. That you don't know what the future is for that person who you're laying off, and that many of those people will find something that they enjoy more, that is a better fit, that sends them in a new direction, sends them back to school. If you assume that it's a terrible thing that they are being laid off and no one wants to have that conversation, but if you assume the result of the conversation, it's harder for you to have it. And that the truth is, we don't actually know. It could be a great thing for that person.
20:11

Speaker 1
And I'm not trying to be Pollyanna about it, I'm just trying to be-
20:13

Speaker 2
Mm.
20:14

Speaker 1
... open to the possibility that maybe not in this moment, in this particular conversation, but three days, or three months, or three years from now, they're going to relate to it like the best thing that happened to them.
20:27

Speaker 2
Yes. When something is currently happening, I always say, even to my mom, who, you know, she tries to make us feel better, as a mom. I say, "Ma, I don't need the idealistics right now. I just wanna sit in this pain and feel it." (laughs)
20:42

Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely.
20:43

Speaker 2
Sometimes I think-
20:43

Speaker 1
I'm not suggesting that you should tell them that. (laughs)
20:46

Speaker 2
Oh, right. (laughs) Yeah. Hmm. But I understand what you're saying, yes. Because if you approach it with a bit of a more positive outlook, even the way you deliver the message, that people are being laid off, will be a very different tone versus, "Economy's bad, you all just need to go." Yes. I, I, yeah. I fully, fully am on board with you. Yes.
21:11

Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it's not an easy conversation, but I think that in terms of preparing oneself for those conversations, you just have to let go of that assumption-
21:19

Speaker 2
Mm.
21:19

Speaker 1
... that it's a total disaster.
21:21

Speaker 2
Right. Now, these CEOs that want their team back-
21:27

Speaker 1
Yes.
21:27

Speaker 2
... to the office, when people are saying, "I'm so glad I don't have to be stuck in traffic anymore. I'm more productive at home," and all of those things-
21:36

Speaker 1
Yeah.
21:36

Speaker 2
... how do they then convince their team members to come back? And is there a valid, significant reason that they can present to their team to say, "Hey, listen. Yes, you guys were productive at home, but now that the pandemic's over, you need to come back." And when they say, "Why?" How did they respond to that?
21:58

Speaker 1
It's a great question, and, and plenty of leaders are facing that now, and we, like over the last year or so in particular, we've seen more and more companies, uh, requiring people to come back to work. You know, there's not a one-size-fits-all answer, because every company culture is different.
22:14

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
22:14

Speaker 1
I think that the culture is really what many people are speaking to. I mean, there are arguments on an efficiency side and a productivity side, even when people feel like they're more productive at home, there is a collaboration and innovation that happens when people run across one another from different projects in a way that you don't do when you're this way, virtually. Right?
22:35

Speaker 2
Yeah.
22:35

Speaker 1
I don't casually run across someone from a different department and strike up a conversation and a relationship. So, those things don't happen virtually. And you're talking about creating a company culture that is that ethos of what it is to work somewhere. And many times, I think that that's what the leaders are looking for. They're looking for that culture that, yes, has impact on productivity, and has impact on relationships and collaboration, and many things that you could write on a, on a spreadsheet. You know, you could actually track those things. But in terms of the conversation about it, I think you have to enroll people in the idea of why it's important, because they are gonna give something up. They are gonna have that commute. They are gonna have less time with their kids, right? You have to enroll them in what is important about it for them, in addition to for the company.
23:28

Speaker 1
Because-
23:28

Speaker 2
Hmm.
23:29

Speaker 1
... we're all looking for what's in it for us, (laughs) right? Ultimately.
23:33

Speaker 2
That's true.
23:33

Speaker 1
Now, for some of us, that is the mission of the company, right? There are plenty of people we work with who are so tied to their company because they believe in the mission and they love what their company does. Those people might say, "Oh, it's better for the company? I'm in." But for the most part, you're really talking to people through their own lens, through their own filter of what they want for themselves and their life. Right? So you're gonna have to get them excited about and motivated by what's in it for them, including the collaboration with their team, or the perks of being in the office and in person. And you won't get everybody. I mean, that's the tough truth. You won't, you won't get everybody back. Some people will leave.
24:17

Speaker 2
Despite the pizza party, yeah.
24:20

Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely not the pizza party. That's not really the way to go, I don't think.
24:23

Speaker 2
(laughs)
24:23

Speaker 1
The- We've seen clients with like, beer in the kitchen. I don't advise that one. That didn't work out well. Uh, but-
24:30

Speaker 2
(laughs) Nice.
24:31

Speaker 1
... you know, beer on top, in the kitchen, you know, Friday afternoon parties, different ways of job sharing, and you know, nicer offices, like all kinds of, quote unquote, "perks" to bring people back, but-
24:45

Speaker 2
Hmm.
24:45

Speaker 1
... you know, honestly, we've seen a lot of people-... enjoy coming back. Maybe not five days a week. Like, they'll, they enjoy it, but they want the connection.
24:54

Speaker 2
Mm.
24:54

Speaker 1
You know, if you are an extrovert, maybe working at home has not been so great for you.
24:59

Speaker 2
So it depends on w- 'Cause introverts, they say, "This is the best thing that's ever happened in my life," and I still get to work from home.
25:06

Speaker 1
Yes. Yes.
25:07

Speaker 2
So i-
25:07

Speaker 1
And that is a challenge.
25:09

Speaker 2
Mm.
25:09

Speaker 1
Right? The organization wants a variety of different people, and so how do you balance the introverts who would just rather work at home all the time, and they can't believe that that wasn't an option for the last 30 years, right? (laughs) Like they, they really are very th-
25:22

Speaker 2
And they are super productive when at home 'cause they don't have to deal with people. (laughs)
25:27

Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. And certain roles, right? We have clients who have these huge open spaces. You know, like, 10 to 5 years ago, it's like all open s- concept and all these open spaces. And they have a job where they have to, you know, have confidential conversations, and there aren't enough, like, conference rooms and things like that to, to have a confidential conversation. One (laughs) organization we worked with, all the conference room were completely glass.
25:53

Speaker 1
So you were in this open concept, and then even when you were collaborating, you were in a glass box in the middle of a-
26:00

Speaker 2
Everybody can see.
26:01

Speaker 1
... in the middle of all these other desks. And so there was, like, no private space to have that confidential conversation. It was confidential 'cause no one could hear you, but they could, everybody could see you, you know?
26:13

Speaker 2
But they know who you, they ... "It's Roberta talking to Maren." (laughs)
26:17

Speaker 1
Right. Right.
26:17

Speaker 2
About the ............................
26:18

Speaker 1
Roberta's the one who fires people, and Maren's in there with her.
26:20

Speaker 2
(laughs)
26:20

Speaker 1
Like, I feel bad for Maren now.
26:22

Speaker 2
Right.
26:23

Speaker 1
Yeah. So that may be the least effective layout, but I do think that you won't please everybody with your solution, right?
26:30

Speaker 2
Mm.
26:30

Speaker 1
People, some people didn't like going home. Some people were resentful when they had to stay at work and were essential, and other people got to go home. The most common compromise I've seen is the three days a week in the middle of the week in person.
26:42

Speaker 2
Yes.
26:43

Speaker 1
And Monday and Friday home.
26:45

Speaker 2
Yes. And some do alternates like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then Tuesday, Thursday, or things like that. Yes. They're trying to find-
26:52

Speaker 1
Yeah.
26:53

Speaker 2
... this balance, this compromise, as you said. So you help leaders develop their capacity. When it comes to difficult conversations, what would be your last words of wisdom for them to equip themselves so that if something needs to be addressed, they have a strategic way of addressing it?
27:15

Speaker 1
Yeah. So we talked about practice and learning the skills. I think courage, I think courage is the biggest thing, because it's your job. It, that actually is the job of a leader is to be the one who has those difficult conversations. Think of any leader you admire. Can you imagine them shying away from having a difficult conversation? Probably not.
27:39

Speaker 2
Nope.
27:40

Speaker 1
So that's where we have to recognize that in that moment, our job is to be uncomfortable. And it's okay. You'll get through the conversation. You will live. The other person will live. And you can have confidence that you can clean things up. You know, you can clean that up if you make a mess. But the courage to have the conversation and not shy away from it iI think makes the biggest difference in an organization.
28:03

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. And what you said earlier regarding building relationship, I'm not saying, you know, be best buddies, but if a leader, every now and again, has one-on-ones-
28:13

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
28:13

Speaker 2
... with their team members and gets to understand them, they will know how to approach any subject, any difficult conversation.
28:22

Speaker 1
For sure. That's a, that's a whole topic for another day. (laughs)
28:26

Speaker 2
And you will come back and talk about it for sure.
28:28

Speaker 1
Yeah.
28:29

Speaker 2
(laughs)
28:29

Speaker 1
The, the rapport building, I think you're right, that, you know, the sensitivity of how you approach things differently with different people is a core leadership skill, for sure. Yeah. We'll talk about it on another day.
28:40

Speaker 2
And you are most invited to come back, Maren.
28:42

Speaker 1
(laughs)
28:42

Speaker 2
Thank you so much, Maren Perry, founder and CEO of Arden Coaching, who's been helping us navigate difficult conversations. I believe there's something special on your website that you have for us.
28:55

Speaker 1
Yes. So I have something for you. So Difficult Conversations is one of our Arden 8, which is the eight leadership dimensions that our programs are based around and that a- we say are essential to all leaders. And so, uh, I wanna offer your listeners an opportunity to get a white paper that outlines all of those Arden 8. This is one of them, but they can get all of them. So if they go to ardencoaching.com/arden8. So Arden is A-R-D-E-N. So ardencoaching.com/arden8, the number eight, uh, there's a white paper there that will elaborate on these topics.
29:31

Speaker 2
Thank you very much. We appreciate that gift, Maren. ardencoaching.com/arden8, the number eight, so that we get those free downloadables.
29:43

Speaker 1
That's right. Free download. Everyone loves a free download.
29:45

Speaker 2
Yes. We appreciate it.
29:47

Speaker 1
(laughs)
29:47

Speaker 2
Everybody loves freebies. Thank you, Maren. (laughs)
29:50

Speaker 1

(laughs) Thank you so much.
29:51

Speaker 2
But most importantly ... My pleasure. Thank you for being here today. I really enjoyed having this conversation with you.
29:58

Speaker 1
Me too. Thank you so much for all your work.
30:00

Speaker 2
My absolute pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come. (upbeat music)