Speaking and Communicating Podcast

00:00

Speaker 1
Those are ways that you demonstrate emotional intelligence in communication that people completely miss because we think it's just a conversation I'm having with you right now. It is not. It is what do I do with the information I got out of this conversation when I think about how I work or communicate with you in the future?
00:18

Speaker 2
(music plays) Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. By the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now, let's get communicating. Now, let's get communicating with our guest today. Joining us from San Francisco Bay area, Sheyna James is the founder of Sheyna James Consulting. She's the best-selling Amazon author and is a leadership strategist who has worked with over 30,000 leaders in training them on how to be better, more efficient and lead teams, especially through chaos. And before I go any further, please welcome her to the show. Hi, Shana.
01:25

Speaker 1
Hi, Roberta. Thanks for having me.
01:27

Speaker 2
I'm so glad that you're here. Welcome. It's my absolute pleasure. Growing up, did you think, "I'm gonna be a leadership strategist and develop more leaders"?
01:38

Speaker 1
Oh, absolutely not. I thought I was gonna be an NBA basketball player. (laughs)
01:43

Speaker 2
What?
01:44

Speaker 1
(laughs) I know. I know.
01:46

Speaker 2
I love that. I would love the backstory on that part before we get into leadership.
01:51

Speaker 1
Yeah, I was a huge basketball fan, and I loved playing basketball. And back then, girls didn't have a professional league. And so I just was convinced that I was better than every male I'd ever encountered, and that I would play basketball. Well, that didn't happen, but it was a great dream. It was a great dream.
02:07

Speaker 2
I love that. (laughs) So what caused the detour?
02:11

Speaker 1
I got thrown into leadership. You know how you wake up in the morning and everything is going great, and you're like, "Wow, what an amazing day. I finally got things together in life." My husband was amazing. He had taken our two boys to church earlier so that I could get some rest that morning. And, um, when I got to church that day, he was the pastor, and after he came out of the pulpit, he said, "I don't feel so good." And I said, "Well, you go take care of yourself, and I'll come back and I'll check on you." And when I went to check on my husband, I found him lying on the ground, completely unconscious. I quickly called 911. We rushed him to the hospital, and as soon as I arrived to the hospital, the doctor pulled me into a room, and he said, "I'm sorry, Mrs. Heard.
02:53

Speaker 1
We've done all that we can, but your husband has passed away."
02:56

Speaker 2
Just that one time when he said he wasn't feeling well?
03:00

Speaker 1
Just that one moment. He had had a massive heart attack, and he passed away within one hour of finishing his sermon. That night, I got thrown into leadership. Number one, I had to lead my two children who were, at the time, ages three and five.
03:17

Speaker 2
Oh, no.
03:18

Speaker 1
I got thrown into becoming the senior pastor of our church and leading that. We had an organization and a business that we'd started. I had to then lead all of that, and all of that was in 24 hours. And that's when I realized, you know what? You better figure out how to lead, and you better figure out how to lead fast, because leadership is not something that everybody just knows. There are people who have natural leadership s- skills, but even then, when you're actually put in leadership moments, you gotta figure it out.
03:47

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
03:47

Speaker 1
And so that's when I went on this deep study. You know, I'd been helping people and coaching people in all different areas. I went on this very deep study of how to lead, and I also had to learn how not only to lead others, but really, Roberta, how to lead myself.
04:03

Speaker 2
Right.
04:03

Speaker 1
You know, how do you lead yourself out of the grief? How do you lead yourself out of the worry? And how do you lead yourself out of, you know, feeling like you're inadequate and feeling like you don't know how to do what you're called to do? How do you lead yourself out of imposter syndrome? And, uh, I had this moment, I never will forget what it was. The moment was, it was my late husband's birthday, and this was within the first year, and it had been about six months since he had passed. I was like, "I should go visit the grave." I couldn't bring myself to visit the grave because it was just so hurtful, right? And when I went to the grave, I looked around and I saw all of the tombstones, and I thought about something my husband said. He said, "You know, the most important day on your tombstone is not the day you were born or the day you die.
04:49

Speaker 1
It's the dash." And in that moment, I started saying, "What am I gonna do with my life?"
04:56

Speaker 2
Hmm.
04:56

Speaker 1
What's gonna make a difference? And I started thinking about this quote from Myles Munroe. You know, he said, "The wealthiest places in all of the world is not the diamond mines, it's not the oil fields, it's not the bank. It's the cemetery-"
05:08

Speaker 2
Cemetery.
05:09

Speaker 1
"... 'cause that's the place where those dreams have died." And I said, "I'm, I'm not gonna let dreams die with me. I'm gonna change some stuff. I'm gonna change life." And I realized I want to help people to lead better, and in leading better, learn to communicate better, because communication helps with your leadership. So that's how I got on this journey.
05:26

Speaker 2
That is absolutely mind-blowing. First of all, thank you so much for highlighting the fact that it's the communication that helps you lead better. But you were thrown into such a deep end with all that you had to take care of, 'cause, uh, typically, the human in us would just say, "I need to lie in bed and grieve." You really felt that, especially with a three-year-old and five-year-old, that you had to step into new shoes now-
05:56

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
05:56

Speaker 2
... because it- these things are not just gonna happen all by themselves.
06:00

Speaker 1
No, they don't. And that's what's so hard about it, right? I think many people are thrust into very challenging situations, and they have to figure out not only how to lead themselves out of it, but how to communicate with the people that are around them in those situations.
06:16

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
06:16

Speaker 1
And oftentimes, we communicate based upon...... the place of our hurt, so we can be angry, and we should say, "Well, people should understand me." Well, the other side of communication is the person who's receiving, and they're like, "Well, I got my own stuff going on too," you know? (laughs) And that's where emotional intelligence hits, kicks in, right? Like, we want people to be emotionally intelligent and have grace and have an understanding for us, but we have to learn that it's our responsibility to learn how to communicate and how to have that grace for others. And I had to learn that for so many different people at once. I had to learn, what did that mean to communicate with my children? 'Cause a lot of times people don't think communication matters to your kids. Oh my gosh, it does.
06:58

Speaker 2
It does.
06:58

Speaker 1
And if you can grow in how you communicate with your children, I'm gonna tell you, you can communicate with other people a lot better. 'Cause the children, they want it just simple and plain, but you also have to take into account their feelings.
07:09

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
07:09

Speaker 1
And I had to learn how to communicate with my staff. I had to learn how to communicate with people in the community. I had to learn how to communicate, even, what words was I saying to myself? What was that communication to myself like during that time period? Because even communicating with yourself and learning how to, uh, have grace for yourself and how to care about yourself, as you speak those internal thoughts, changes how you impact and how you communicate and influence others.
07:35

Speaker 2
That is very true. Not just you communicating, but the receiver of your message. Because sometimes that's the part we omit and we think, "But I'm a great communicator. Obviously Shana got the message the way I intended" (laughs) , which is usually not the case. But back to your experience when you lost your husband, I find that, speaking of communication, a lot of us don't know the right words to communicate when somebody's grieving and they've lost a loved one. And so what happens is, we either go to the too much absorbing of the grief, or we go the other extreme, which is you start quoting Myles Munroe or what a preacher said about somebody passing. Or imagine on the day if I had come to you and I say, "Shana, this too shall pass," or, "You're gonna be okay." You are not ready for that message on the day that it happens.
08:37

Speaker 1
Not at all. People mean well. And for that, I appreciate it, but what I've found, communication is not just what I say, it's my ability to hear.
08:49

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
08:49

Speaker 1
And in those moments of grief, what people who are grieving, or people at your job who are hurting, someone just got a diagnosis of cancer, what they need most is not your advice, they need your ear. The other side of communication. Just to be there and listen. The people who meant the most to me were the ones who could sit in a room with me and not say a word. Just be there. That is communication, to me, at its highest form, because it is the ability to hear what someone is saying and not just speak it. I don't know why we only think communication is what I say.
09:26

Speaker 2
That's why it's funny-
09:27

Speaker 1
When-
09:27

Speaker 2
... you say that. When I titled the (laughs) name of the show, I remember some of the earlier guests used to say to me, "Isn't speaking and communicating the same thing? Why do you make it..." (laughs) No.
09:38

Speaker 1
It really isn't.
09:39

Speaker 2
It's one aspect of it, but everybody thinks just because I've spoken, I've communicated.
09:44

Speaker 1
Yeah. I think a lot of times people often think that communication is about getting my message across. I think communication is connection. It's probably changing the way a lot of people think about communication, but if I can connect with you, then I can hear you better and you can hear me. Without connection, it's almost like thinking about a fax machine. I know, that's going way back. I'm telling my age. I'm on a fax machine.
10:08

Speaker 2
I'm old enough to have worked in the age of-
10:10

Speaker 1
You're old enough to know-
10:10

Speaker 2
... fax machines.
10:11

Speaker 1
... a fax machine.
10:11

Speaker 2
(laughs) Yes.
10:12

Speaker 1
Right. You know, back in the day, I might have to describe this for some of the younger listeners, which is okay. When you tried to send a document, this is before email, your phone would connect to the other person's fax machine, or the two fax machines- machines would connect, and there would be this garbling sound, that grr, that would come that would let you know that the connection happened. Message couldn't get transmitted, the document couldn't be transmitted until a connection was made. This is why so many times we misunderstand people, because we don't have connection.
10:45

Speaker 1
This is why we-
10:46

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
10:46

Speaker 1
... misinterpret people's tones and their actions and their ideas and their words, because we don't have a connection with them enough to understand that's not probably what they were really trying to say. We assume a lot. So I tell people, "We gotta stop trying to be mind readers in communication." You are not a mind reader. Ask, make a connection, speak, find out what's going on. Find out what's happening surrounding that person. Listen to that person.
11:12

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
11:12

Speaker 1
It'll change that person's perspective in life. For me, when I was grieving, the people who mattered most were the ones who listened. And it was also, I'm gonna say this 'cause you talked about grief, I'm gonna just throw this out there. This is a little bonus on how to communicate to somebody who's grieving. Stop asking them, "If there's anything I can do, let me know." We have no idea what you can do in that moment. We are stressed, we are overwhelmed, we don't have an answer. Start just doing for them. Just bring a meal, just bring some, some encouraging words.
11:43

Speaker 1
Just, if they have small children and you're very close to them, just say, "Hey, I'm gonna come and I'm gonna pick your kids up from school today."
11:48

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
11:49

Speaker 1
Just do it. It's a high level of emotional intelligence to move beyond contact me and tell me. Why? Because a grieving person struggles to be able to think about all the millions of things they have to do, and then they gotta think about, "I gotta do this, and now who can I reach out to to help me with that? And I don't wanna bother this person." Just do it for them. They will appreciate it so much. So that's a little tip that wasn't a part of this, but I think can really transform how people communicate and impact people around them, especially when they're hurting.
12:19

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. I've been guilty of that at times, 'cause to me, it's the, "I don't know what they need the most right now, but they probably know better than me, so I'll hear from..." And I do say, I'm like, "If you need anything, I'm here. Just know I'm here. You can call me in the middle of the night." But now that you've explained it this way, I understand that it's almost like at work when I should my- have my own innovative, creative idea on how this problem's gonna be solved.
12:46

Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely.And when I have my own idea, this is what a lot of people say at work, "Well, nobody asked me for it, so I'm not gonna share." And I'm saying, "Well, if you've got this creative idea, you know there's a problem. It's the same thing."
13:00

Speaker 2
Right.
13:00

Speaker 1
Take the initiative to have this or to bring it. And, and obviously, there's a way to do that and not overstep, but I think a lot of times in communication, we are waiting for people to tell us what they need instead of taking some initiative in approaching it, taking initiative in sharing my ideas, taking initiative in maybe just doing to help. I think it goes a lot further when people try to help-
13:26

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
13:26

Speaker 1
... versus people just waiting for someone to ask them for help.
13:30

Speaker 2
Right.
13:30

Speaker 1
Right? I think emotional intelligence is such an amazing concept because it seems so simple in its theory, right?
13:38

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
13:38

Speaker 1
It is the ability to think about or care about another person's heart in essence. That's how I view it, right? But it is, in practice, it is this ability where I see the most influence and change happen, it is this ability to be able to help make someone else feel understood.
13:58

Speaker 2
Hmm.
13:59

Speaker 1
And we make people feel understood in more ways than just what we say. We make them feel understood in what we do. Let me give you a little illustration.
14:07

Speaker 2
Please do, yes.
14:08

Speaker 1
My husband, thank all powers above that he is so much better at this than me, but my husband has a degree in psychology, so he has learned very well how to make me feel valued. For instance, I will talk to him about a problem that I'm having and how I wish he would do it differently next time, and it'll be a year later, same scenario comes back around. My husband doesn't come and say, "Well, what would you like me to do?" He just goes and does it the way that I asked him to do it. And I feel so understood, Roberta. I feel so valued.
14:40

Speaker 2
That's beautiful. (laughs)
14:40

Speaker 1
I feel like we can talk about, because you heard me, and he didn't hear me-
14:45

Speaker 2
Hmm.
14:45

Speaker 1
... by just saying, which these are powerful words, the powerful words of saying, "I heard you say," or, "This is what I think you mean." Those are powerful words. He didn't just say those words. He acted on those words, and it is the action of the word that made me feel like you really did hear what I said.
15:05

Speaker 2
And you cared-
15:06

Speaker 1
I'm all in.
15:06

Speaker 2
... enough to actually do something about it when the scenario-
15:10

Speaker 1
To do something about it.
15:11

Speaker 2
... happened again. Yes.
15:13

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
15:13

Speaker 2
Because it's one thing for us to just verbally express that, "Hey, Shana, I know what you need. I'll be there for you," and then when the time comes, I need my actions to back that up.
15:28

Speaker 1
Yes, absolutely.
15:30

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
15:30

Speaker 1
And that's what leaders need. When you do that as a leader, and you do that for your team, your team realizes they can trust you.
15:39

Speaker 2
Right.
15:39

Speaker 1
And the more they feel like they can trust you, what happens? The more they are willing to go run through a wall for you.
15:46

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
15:47

Speaker 1
So if you can start to listen to what they're saying, even asking questions about what their needs are, and then look at how you can meet those needs and really hear them. Maybe they tell you, "I don't like to be recognized publicly." I literally have had clients say that. "I don't like when my boss rec- like, don't bring me in front of anybody." And I was thinking, wow, that's crazy 'cause I love public recognition, but that's their personality.
16:10

Speaker 2
(laughs) Some people are introverts, yeah.
16:12

Speaker 1
They're very introverted. That's their personality.
16:13

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
16:14

Speaker 1
So how does their boss help them to feel heard and valued? Well, the next time they wanna recognize them, don't bring them in front of the whole staff. Do something different.
16:25

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
16:25

Speaker 1
Maybe send a card, be quiet. Those are ways that you demonstrate emotional intelligence in communication that people completely miss, because we think it's just the conversation I'm having with you right now. It is not. It is what do I do with the information I got out of this conversation when I think about how I work or communicate with you in the future?
16:44

Speaker 2
When I listen to these stories that you've shared when it comes to emotional intelligence, I'm wondering, is there an element of common sense that we are missing?
16:55

Speaker 1
Roberta, yes. (laughs)
16:57

Speaker 2
(laughs)
16:57

Speaker 1
What a question. 100%. But, but I need to be-
17:01

Speaker 2
So like, why should this be a whole master class? 'Cause it almost sounds like common sense, but we're just simply not getting it right. Where's the disconnect?
17:09

Speaker 1
The disconnect, for me, falls a couple of ways. Look, I, I raised two boys, and the thing that I learned about raising children is that we assume they know a lot. We assume that our children know to say thank you. They don't. They're taught to say thank you. I was a single mother, and I had a girlfriend who was a single mother, and every year for her birthday, she was like, "My kids never buy me anything. They never even get me anything for Mother's Day." And I told her, I said, "That's your fault." And she said, "What do you mean it's my fault?" Now, her kids were probably like 12, 13, 14 at the time. "What do you mean it's my fault? They should know." I said, "How would they know if you don't teach them?" So from the time my kids were little, remember, I was a single mom, so I would do things like this. I would say, "Uh, my birthday's coming up. Do y'all need me to take you to the mall? Do you need me to take you to the store?
17:52

Speaker 1
'Cause you're gonna get me a gift." And what was I doing? I was teaching them gratitude.
17:58

Speaker 2
Hmm.
17:58

Speaker 1
Now, I don't have to do that. They're 20 and 22 years old. They automatically know. But I do still remind people it's my birthday 'cause I don't want you to forget. (laughs)
18:07

Speaker 2
(laughs) I like that.
18:07

Speaker 1
But I will say this. Yes, it's common sense, but common is not common to everybody. So maybe for you or for one person, that just makes sense to do that because you grew up in an environment like that-
18:21

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
18:21

Speaker 1
... because you had a bosses who were like that, because you had a parent who was like that, because you've seen it your whole life. But for many other people, they haven't seen that, so common isn't common for them. They've not seen people who respond this way. I mean, just think, you know, the conversation we had about what do you say to someone who is grieving?That's not a common thing unless you've been a person grieving. Every person I've been grieving, who I know, who has been through grief says, "Oh, thank you. Those were the words I could not figure out how to say. Please, please." And it's because you haven't been there. We assume so much in communication, and that's why there's so many breakdowns because we cannot assume that people have common sense. We cannot assume that people know this is how to respond. We cannot assume that people will take what they've said and then do it again the next time.
19:08

Speaker 1
I literally have clients who we keep going through the same things over and over and over again. Something in their brain is not clicking. The other person keeps telling them, "No, I don't like this. No, this bothers me," and they keep doing it anyway. Seems common, but it's not to that person. Does that make sense?
19:26

Speaker 2
Right. It does, and hence, like you said, we shouldn't assume which means we should communicate better and clearer. Now, you help leaders lead through chaos with a leadership emergency kit. What is that?
19:43

Speaker 1
Yes. My leadership emergency kit is, it's that thing where you're like, "Hey, I'm struggling. I'm in conflict with somebody right now. What am I supposed to do?" Right? So what I did was I looked at five common areas that are based upon emergencies that I've seen people in the organizations that I've worked with get challenged with. Some of them are like, "Hey, I keep delegating something and it keeps coming back to me. Why?" Or, "I'm having a conflict with someone on my team or someone on my team is having conflict with another person on my team. What do I do with that?" Or, "Innovation is stalled. We don't know how to solve a problem. What do we do?" Now, this toolkit is based upon my framework, which is called RAIR. It's R-A-I-R, because I think leaders should be RAIR and it stands for being relational, which is how we deal with the communication. So in this toolkit, you've got some tips on how to communicate better.
20:37

Speaker 1
You've got some tools on how to communicate better in crisis, when there's conflict. Then it't based on authenticity, so re- relational, being authentic, being innovative, and being resilient. Authenticity, we talk about how to get over imposter syndrome and I give you some quick tips to get over that. Innovation, I tell you how to get unstuck. And then resilient, how do you deal when there's really a crisis, when there's something in the moment that you need to deal with? So this toolkit is something that's really powerful, really effective, and you're gonna get some practical tools that you can use to help you to lead better and to communicate better.
21:10

Speaker 2
Right, an emergency kit indeed. So let's talk about the first one, relational. Do you find that especially leaders who sometimes say, "I'm not a people person. I'm, you know, I was promoted because I was really good at my job." Do you find that they struggle with the relationship building part with their teams and that's why they come to you?
21:36

Speaker 1
Roberta, it is not just those introverts. It's extroverts too. It's crazy. We struggle with building relationships, and let me explain why. Because leadership is built around building trust and influence, so relationships are like bank accounts. You've probably heard this story before, like you can't get anything out of it unless you put something in. And most people think because I got a title that the bank should be full and I can pull from that, from that relationship anytime I want. But the reality is, it's not. So whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, I look at your personality type. Everybody's personality type has a challenge when it comes to communication, every personality type. And so it doesn't matter what your personality type is, you can improve your communication skills. So some people think that extroverts are just great at relationships.
22:28

Speaker 1
Well, people like me, my personality type, I'm great at relationships when it comes to getting to know people but I'm very forgetful, which means I've hurt a lot of people because they thought I should've known or I should've remembered or that I should have cared a little bit more. It seems like I don't care because I forget a lot. So I've had to learn how to remember more, like names. I, it's the craziest thing. I struggle with remembering names. But in order to communicate more effectively, I had to learn names.
22:58

Speaker 1
Oh, I had to say people's name like 15 times over just so I can remember, so that when we talk-
23:03

Speaker 2
You've never done that exercise where, like for instance, the other day I told someone, "My name is Roberta." And they say, "Roberta Flack, that's how I'm gonna remember it." Like, that word association?
23:14

Speaker 1
I have, but my personality type forgets. So I am a DISC behavioral consultant and so there are four personality types. My personality type chases squirrels, so I'm easily distracted. So even if you told me Roberta Flack, I would be chasing squirrels and then I'll come back and I'll go, "Wow, she looks very familiar. I don't know where I know her from."
23:33

Speaker 2
(laughs)
23:33

Speaker 1
Now, I love the fact that your name is written on the bottom of this screen 'cause I'm like, "Roberta," and I can use it. Roberta, it's Roberta, right? But for my personality type, when it comes to communication, that is something that I really struggle with. And so no, even if you're an extrovert-
23:47

Speaker 2
Right.
23:48

Speaker 1
... you might have challenges. You might have ch- challenges, and a part of my responsibility as a leadership consultant is to look at where is that gap for you in relationships? What is the challenge for you? Is it communicating when someone isn't doing what you need them to do? That's a gap. Like, how do I communicate with a staff member or a team member if they're not giving me what I asked for? Do I wait till performance review time? Do I do an in the moment sort of a review or do I write them up? Like, all of that is crucial to your leadership and it takes emotional int- intelligence to understand it so you know how to do it effectively in the moment. So everybody who leads, even if you're a natural born leader, people think natural born leaders just got it all together. No, they still need a lot of help with how they work to be more relational in dealing with their teams.
24:45

Speaker 2
Mm. Because like you mentioned earlier, r- leadership is about building trust. So when you build that relationship, that openness is what also increases the trust between you and your team member.
25:01

Speaker 1
Absolutely.
25:02

Speaker 2
Now please tell us about your book, Shana.
25:05

Speaker 1
Yeah. So my book is called Fix the Leadership Problem, and the subtitle is: how to stop paying the high price of poor leadership at work and in life. Really, I go delve into those four areas of RARE, and I break down and give you practical tips on how you can really grow as a leader. And then I also, at the end of the book, I give you three sort of future things that I see, like how to lead in the midst of AI during this season, how to manage up, which is a huge thing.
25:33

Speaker 1
That was one of the bigger issues that I saw with a lot of my clients, like how do I deal with my boss-
25:39

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
25:39

Speaker 1
... and, and that issue. And then how to lead with more courage, because I think we're living in a time where it's easy for people to shrink back in their leadership. And I think our world really needs some people who will stand up and who will speak up in a, in the days that are coming ahead. So those are the things that I see in the future, and that's what's in the book, and I hope that your listeners will find some value in that.
26:00

Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I'll put those details in the show notes. And speaking of leading up, here's what I'm wondering, especially 'cause you've been doing this work for a long time. Do you find that this new generation is more confident in leading up compared to when we started working, like 30 years ago? Or it's not a generational thing, it's, uh, an individual thing?
26:25

Speaker 1
We are in a crisis in leadership right now, and the reason we're in a crisis is because the old generation of how they led was authoritarian style.
26:36

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
26:36

Speaker 1
You do what I say because I'm the boss and I said it. But then you have a newer generation that is a more information-based age, where the newer generation, the youngest generation, not millennials, millennials do this as well, but our new, uh, Gen Z population, this group is like, they grew up with parents who gave them voices and who gave them opportunity to share what's on their heart. And so they kind of grow up with, "I don't have to listen to this. If I don't wanna do it, I'll just go find another job." And that's how they're approaching it.
27:07

Speaker 1
And they'll leave a job without a job, which is crazy to me, 'cause my generation, it was like, "You don't leave until you have another job."
27:13

Speaker 2
We used to-
27:14

Speaker 1
They would leave, they were like-
27:14

Speaker 2
... Yes. To the point where-
27:16

Speaker 1
... "I'll find a-"
27:16

Speaker 2
... in corporate South Africa, sorry to interrupt you, Shana.
27:19

Speaker 1
No, yeah.
27:19

Speaker 2
Y- y- y- you have 30 days to give notice if you leave a job so they find your replacement. And if they wanna fire you, they have 30 days to notice you so that you have 30 days to find a job, 'cause there shouldn't be a scenario where you don't have a job (laughs) .
27:35

Speaker 1
No. Yeah. I like that policy. I wish they had it in the United States, but they don't. I mean, really, people get hired and fired so much here. And we are in a gig economy here in America, especially in Silicon Valley where I'm at, which is basically, a gig economy means that people aren't necessarily looking for full-time positions anymore, and a lot of companies aren't hiring full-time positions. They're hiring contract work or, you know, I just need someone to do this particular task. And so a lot of these young people say, "Well, I can go work DoorDash, I can work Uber Eats until I find a job.
28:07

Speaker 1
I can go get on Fiverr or Upwork and I can put my services out there and I can make some money." And so they don't have to deal with the authoritarian style, which means people from different generations have to learn how to connect with the people that they're working with, because the reality is, is there was a study that showed something like 69% of people who left their jobs did not leave because of the job, they left because of their boss.
28:31

Speaker 2
Yes. Oh, you could have thrown-
28:33

Speaker 1
No-
28:33

Speaker 2
... money at the problem and paid them more. They left because of the leadership. Yup.
28:38

Speaker 1
Yup. And I am watching this become a greater crisis, because think about this. And I don't know how it is in South Africa, so I will only speak about what it's like in the United States.
28:48

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
28:48

Speaker 1
In the United States, we have foundational classes that you take from primary school through high school for us, which is right before college.
28:57

Speaker 2
Same. Yeah.
28:58

Speaker 1
Those are reading, writing, history, English, arithmetic. Nobody teaches you leadership and communication.
29:05

Speaker 2
Nope.
29:05

Speaker 1
It's not a required course.
29:07

Speaker 2
Unless you're in college or university and that's your major.
29:12

Speaker 1
Yeah. Exactly. But from the primary ages, from-
29:15

Speaker 2
Yeah.
29:15

Speaker 1
... say, age five to age 17, we do not teach those skills.
29:19

Speaker 2
Mm-mm.
29:19

Speaker 1
And so now we take people with those skills and they have become great at the reading, writing and arithmetic parts. They've become great at their individual job. Now promote them, because they're so good at their job, to manager. But they have no skills in how to lead. They have no communication skills. They have no skills in how to be innovative. They have no skills in how to handle the changes that are happening around them. They don't have the skills. So it is creating a deep crisis. And we are in a space now where we must start training people, even our young people, how to lead early. I had a person say this, "Everybody wants to lead something, even if it's just the dog," right?
29:58

Speaker 1
We all are leading-
30:00

Speaker 2
Yeah. Something at home.
30:01

Speaker 1
... even if it's your dog or your phone.
30:02

Speaker 2
Even if you don't have a pet, let's say for instance your kids are still young. You say, "You are responsible for making sure that this chore at home gets done." That's their-
30:14

Speaker 1
Yes.
30:14

Speaker 2
... leadership domain. Yeah. (laughs)
30:16

Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. And teaching them-
30:17

Speaker 2
Because if that's not done, as parents you will come to them and say, "Uh, so what happened here?" 'Cause I knew we had an agreement.
30:24

Speaker 1
That is correct.
30:24

Speaker 2
Yes.
30:25

Speaker 1
That is correct. Teaching our children how to work together with others, teaching our, giving our children opportunities to lead task-
30:32

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
30:32

Speaker 1
... versus just giving them an opportunity and telling them, "Here's what you're going to do." Give them an opportunity, give them space. And I, I'll say, like both of my children play baseball, so sports was a really great way to give them an opportunity to lead, to encourage them to do things like, "Hey, don't just sit back on your team. Can you lead the team chants?" That's simple.
30:51

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
30:52

Speaker 1
And they would say, "Oh, mom, I'm not that kinda person." "Okay. Well, what can you lead in?" We discovered for my younger child, my younger child is very much an introvert. He's a numbers guy, very much like exact science kinda guy. But he had to be a leader on the field. So he struggled because he wasn't that vocal leader.... and he came to me when he was in high school. He said, "I discovered that I am a leader, Mom, just not the kind of leader other people are." And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "I lead one-to-one.
31:20

Speaker 1
I don't lead in front of a crowd."
31:21

Speaker 2
Mm.
31:21

Speaker 1
He said, "I have more influence and impact when I can talk to a person one-on-one than I ever have standing in front of the whole team trying to get something done." And he said, "And it's working." 'Cause he was a catcher, so he was like, "If I had a guy on the mound who was struggling, I would, I would go talk to him and I could lead him on how to get out of that slump." He said, "Because I know how to lead him."
31:41

Speaker 2
I love that.
31:42

Speaker 1
See, that's what I mean. That's leadership.
31:44

Speaker 2
What a young man-
31:45

Speaker 1
And that's communication.
31:45

Speaker 2
Yes.
31:46

Speaker 1
Yeah.
31:46

Speaker 2
One, two, the self-awareness, and knowing that leadership is not one straight narrow path. Also, this myth that only extroverts can lead because they talk more, it ... there are so many introverts who surprisingly, pleasantly so, find that, hey, wait a minute, (laughs) when pushed, that they actually can lead, and they're-
32:10

Speaker 1
Yeah.
32:10

Speaker 2
... really good at it, 'cause they thought, "I'm an introvert, I'm not good with people." But they're pleasantly surprised when given the opportunity and they prove themselves, even to themselves, and they think, "Oh, wow, I actually didn't know that I could do this." They're not just being introverted-
32:23

Speaker 1
Yes.
32:23

Speaker 2
... and sitting in their corner. Yes. I absolutely-
32:27

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
32:27

Speaker 2
... love that. Kudos to your son.
32:30

Speaker 1
Yeah. One of my clients who I think is one of the most influential leaders I've ever seen is the quietest person you'll ever wanna meet. Uh, so she brought me in to do trainings with her teams. She has two teams that she was leading. When I went in to lead her teams, like, she doesn't say anything. She's super quiet. The whole training, not saying a word. And the whole time the team is talking about her. Like, "Well, she said ..." "Well, she wants us ..." "She believed in me, so I can't ..." And I'm sitting here and I'm, like, watching this.
32:55

Speaker 2
Wow.
32:56

Speaker 1
And her team, both teams love her. Both teams will run through a wall for her. Both teams are excited about working for her. And she is just sitting there quiet. I said, "What are you doing?" Like, "How do you lead like this?" And she said, "One, I work hard, which means ..." She says, "My people see me doing the work that they're doing, so they know I understand."
33:20

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
33:21

Speaker 1
And then she said, "Two, the other side of that, I just talk to them one-on-one. I see what's inside of them, and I try to encourage that to come out." And I said, "Oh my gosh, that is great leadership." They trust her.
33:33

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
33:33

Speaker 1
They value her. She has a level of emotional intelligence that's unreal. And here's the catch. She is the quietest person in the room.
33:41

Speaker 2
You know what that tells me?
33:42

Speaker 1
So don't try to be like other people.
33:44

Speaker 2
(laughs)
33:44

Speaker 1
Yeah. You can't be like other people, but ... To be a leader, you don't have to be loud and vocal. Just be you.
33:49

Speaker 2
Right.
33:49

Speaker 1
That's what I, that's what I mean by you gotta be authentic.
33:51

Speaker 2
Authentic.
33:51

Speaker 1
Be yourself. People like folks who are authentic. If this is who you are, if you can be loud, be loud. If you're quiet, be quiet. Don't try to, like, fit a mold to get a title. Be who you are and do your job well, and connect with people. If you can connect with people, it doesn't matter how vocal or un-vocal you are. People have already created a connection with you.
34:13

Speaker 2
I actually think being an introvert is a super power, because one, you were talking about listening earlier. They listen more, 'cause they talk less, and that's why-
34:22

Speaker 1
Mm.
34:22

Speaker 2
... their team members feel valued and seen and they actually get, "Oh, this person really sees me," because they listen more.
34:31

Speaker 1
That's right.
34:31

Speaker 2
I think she's a great example of that. Sheyna James, thank you very much for this very wonderful conversation. The work that you do in growing leaders, because yes, there is a leadership crisis, and we are so grateful that you are contributing to making that better. Before you go, would you like our listeners and viewers to reach out to you, and where can they find you online?
34:54

Speaker 1
Yeah. You can find me online at my website at shanajamesconsulting.com, or you can find me on any social media platform with the tag, my handle is coachshana. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. Just use coachsheyna, you'll find me.
35:10

Speaker 2

Coach Sheyna James, shanajamesconsulting.com, and the socials, coachshanajames. This has been such a pleasure, and thank you for teaching us so much, especially with your Leadership Emergency Kit. We appreciate you.
35:24

Speaker 1
Thanks so much, Roberta.
35:26

Speaker 2
My absolute pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come.