Speaking and Communicating Podcast

"Well, well, I like to do this, but I can't really earn money doing this. I'm earning money doing this, and I'm not really sure I like it." How do you kind of build a bridge between those things and create a career that you like or that you love, even if it's not necessarily your main passion? I know they say, you know, follow your passion, blah, blah. It's great advice and if you can do it, awesome, but it's not always practical. Or sometimes, you know, you have to build a bridge between the two.
00:26

Speaker 2
(music plays) Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast. I am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. By the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now, let's get communicating. Now, let's get communicating with our guest today. Joining us from New Jersey, Karen Ann Bullock is a novelist. She has authored best-selling novels that focus on women leadership in corporate life. She was the first woman to be promoted to be an executive at a previous company and has been an executive for almost two decades. She is here to help us, especially us women leaders, in order to gain more confidence, have integrity, and be risk-takers in our careers.
01:37

Speaker 2
And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Karen.
01:42

Speaker 1
Hi, Roberta. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here, because your topic is one that's near and dear to my heart.
01:49

Speaker 2
I'm so glad you say that. (laughs) Because I feel like we've drummed this communications thing over and over again. Don't you think people are tired by now, Karen?
02:00

Speaker 1
They might be, but it's so important. You know, I was an English major when I was in college, and everybody thought I was going to go into teaching when I got out of college. And I'm like, "Yeah, no, I don't really want to be a teacher." And they said, "Well, what are you going to do?" And I said, "Well, I'm going to do anything I want to do." (laughs) They laughed at me, of course. But when I went into business, what I really found that my communication skills, I think, for me personally, my communication skills were the single biggest reason for my success in corporate life, because that foundation of being able to communicate well, effectively, and concisely, really just helped propel my career in unexpected ways at times.
02:44

Speaker 2
So how long ago did you graduate and come to that realization?
02:49

Speaker 1
Okay, it was a long time. (laughs)
02:52

Speaker 2
Not to tell your age. (laughs)
02:54

Speaker 1
I graduated from college in the mid-'80s. So, I will tell you that. And I think it probably took me another decade before I realized how important the communication skills were going to be to my career.
03:07

Speaker 2
Was it something that you personally came to an understanding of just by sitting and analyzing and looking back, or did somebody bring it to your attention? Because in most cases, we find that a lot of the time people are not even aware. They just think, "I'm really good at my technical job, and that's how I'm going to climb the corporate ladder."
03:29

Speaker 1
You know, that's an interesting question. I think it was a combination of both things. People did compliment me on my writing skills, in particular, and the clarity of my writing skills, but I also knew that, you know, by comparing what I was writing to other people, I also could tell that I could get to the point quickly, that I could make things very clear for people. So, I think it was probably a combination of both, m- my observations and people commenting.
03:59

Speaker 2
I'm glad you brought the writing skills to our attention, because I always highlight that. 'Cause I started working in the mid-'90s, so not too far after you started.
04:08

Speaker 1
(laughs)
04:08

Speaker 2
And I found that 'cause we didn't have Google, ChatGPT, or any other tools to help us write business letters. I remember my first mentor, he used to just keep editing the letter over and over again. He will edit it about eight times before we print it on a letterhead-
04:25

Speaker 1
(laughs)
04:25

Speaker 2
... which means that's the final version before sending it to the client. So, that brought to my attention how important writing skills were. And as you said, you can tell the difference when my mentor wrote a letter versus somebody else who was not as meticulous as he was.
04:43

Speaker 1
Yeah, and, and that's really important. And even in the day of Google and ChatGPT and, and all the other tools, which are great tools to use, but you still have to be careful that you're keeping your voice and your integrity and keeping the uniqueness of you, your- as yourself, and of your company, particularly if you're doing customer-facing communications. You don't want to sound like everybody else. So, you have to be a little bit careful using those tools. I mean, they're great tools that help you frame things and put things in context, but you've got to keep yourself in it. And I think that's really important.
05:22

Speaker 2
That's very important, indeed. Especially because there's this debate of is AI replacing the human element or is it adding to what humans are already doing? Because I think that's where some people might get confused, thinking there's gonna be a replacement versus it's just enhancing what I was already doing.
05:46

Speaker 1
Yes, exactly. And it's interesting that you bring up the whole AI thing, because I've written, as you mentioned before, some novels about corporate life and executive life. And the new novel that is coming out is called Embracing Trust, and there's a lot in that about what AI can and can't do, and the struggle that my character as an executive has in trying to...... you navigate that. What's AI good for? What's it not good for? Where does it fit? You know, AI can enhance a lot of things and it probably, some places, very simplistic, where it could replace humans. But humans are so much more than just our rational brains, and AI can't replace that.
06:28

Speaker 2
So, let's talk about your novels. You went from corporate life to author and write fiction novels talking about your experiences. How did you make that shift? 'Cause those are almost two different worlds. (laughs)
06:44

Speaker 1
(laughs) And they are, and I, I made the shift not well. (laughs) Let's put it this way, it was a difficult shift because I thought, "Okay, I've been reading books all my life, I've been writing all my life, I can do this. I can write a novel." So, I will tell you a little secret, and this is another key to soft skill success in corporate, but it played out in my book-creating career. So, I wrote my first novel, which was actually called Ascending Ladders. You will not see it behind me. And it was okay. It was okay. I wrote it myself. I had some editing and some help with it, but, you know, it was okay. And then, it needed a sequel. So, I happened to get connected with a writing coach, who is fantastic, and she helped me write the sequel to it. Well, the sequel to it was, like, bounds and bounds better (laughs) than my first one.
07:42

Speaker 1
And I thought, "Okay, now I have a big problem." Because if somebody reads the sequel and then goes back and reads the first one, they're gonna be like, "What happened to this person?" This is, like, either-
07:53

Speaker 2
Like me. (laughs)
07:53

Speaker 1
... somebody else wrote this next one or, uh, you know, completely different. And so I talked to my writing coach about it, and what I did is I ended up going back and rewriting the first one, which is now Discovering Power. So, that's the first book in the series, it's called Discovering Power. And I rewrote it. And so I pulled the first one off of Amazon and I got rid of all the copies, and I said, "Okay, no, I ... We're gonna go with this new version because it's so much better, because I've learned so much." Because, to your point, writing fiction is a completely different skillset than I had to use before.
08:26

Speaker 1
I mean, yes, I had writing skills-
08:27

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
08:27

Speaker 1
... (laughs) but not writing fiction skills. It was kind of a shock to the system that, you know, I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I can do this." And then it's like, "Well, maybe I can't do it as well as I think." So, I had to learn, and it was a great experience. And one of the things I think I learned from it and that I tell other women that want to take risks, you can do do-overs.
08:49

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
08:49

Speaker 1
There's almost everything you can do over in your life. I mean, there's a few things you can't, but for the most part, if you mess something up or you fail at it the first time, or it's not exactly where you want it to be, you can do it again.
09:04

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
09:05

Speaker 1
Even something as publishing a book. So, that's where (laughs) I ended up in that journey. And now I've learned a lot and, and my writing, my fiction-writing skills are a heck of a lot better than they were when I started.
09:16

Speaker 2
That is such a wonderful lesson. And the thing is, I love that you say that you can do over, and you literally were doing a whole overhaul of the new book and pulling it ... Like, a lot of people would just think, "Oh, no, let's not do that again." Because here's the thing about doing something and then messing it up. You learn what not to do, you learn what works.
09:39

Speaker 1
Yes.
09:39

Speaker 2
They call it fail forward. You learn more.
09:42

Speaker 1
Yeah. (laughs)
09:42

Speaker 2
Because, yes, you can sit in a master class and absorb everything, but doing is, tends to be one of your best teachers. (laughs)
09:51

Speaker 1
Absolutely. And I did learn a lot from that experience. It was a humbling experience. (laughs) But I learned a lot from it, and I'm, in a lot of ways, glad that it happened that way, because I wouldn't have learned as much and I wouldn't have really taken the time to work on those skills and go from being an okay writer to being a really good one.
10:14

Speaker 2
Right. Now, let's talk about two things you mentioned earlier, discovering your own power. How do you help your professional clients discover their own power? Especially women, 'cause they say that one of the challenges we have is that we don't even realize our power in the boardroom. Even when we're qualified, we don't think that we're good enough, there's a confidence issue. How do you help them discover their own power?
10:45

Speaker 1
Well, it's funny you bring that up, because I had a client who thought of herself as, "I'm a sole contributor. I don't manage people, and I want a job." She certainly had some income goals. And I'm like, "You're not gonna get where you wanna go just by being a sole contributor. You've got to manage people." She goes, "Well, I've never ... I haven't done that." I said, "Well, that's not true. You have done that." So, the first thing is, I help people go back and say, "What have you really done?" Right?
11:17

Speaker 2
Okay.
11:17

Speaker 1
People say, "Well, I haven't done that. I can't do that." Well, a lot of times, they have done it. Maybe not in the way they, like, is expected or normal, and I (laughs) use that word very loosely, but they've done it. Like, for instance, for this client, yes, she had managed people in the past. It had been a long time. But she also worked in cross-functional organizations where she was, maybe people, didn't have people reporting to her, but she was certainly managing people.
11:44

Speaker 2
Right.
11:45

Speaker 1
Because we manage people around us, we manage people above us. If we're really managing our careers well, we are doing a lot of managing people. And so when I pulled that apart with her, to say, "What have you done in this arena?" she was like, "Oh. Yeah. I really do have a lot more skills here than I thought I did. And yeah, maybe I can apply for a job that has people reporting to it. Maybe even a job with a VP title or an executive title."And she did, and she got one.
12:17

Speaker 1
(laughs)
12:17

Speaker 2
Right.
12:19

Speaker 1
(laughs)
12:19

Speaker 2
Because she knew what to do and to do-
12:20

Speaker 1
Because she had those skills.
12:22

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
12:22

Speaker 1
But it really took, sit down and look at what you've done, and then look at the skills you've learned from them, maybe not in a conventional way, but...
12:35

Speaker 2
Or the conventional title. I think we get caught up in the title.
12:38

Speaker 1
Right, yes.
12:39

Speaker 2
Yeah.
12:40

Speaker 1
Yes, we do. We, we often get caught up in titles. And, and I know a lot of women, you know, there's this one woman I, I worked with who was totally hung up on titles, and it just got in her way.
12:53

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
12:53

Speaker 1
It just got in her way. You have to look beyond titles and look at what you can really do and what you can really contribute, and it's probably a lot more than you think it is.
13:03

Speaker 2
Yes. And your resume will look very different from what you thought versus if you go to Karen and she pulls that out for you, if you hadn't come to that realization. Yeah.
13:16

Speaker 1
Exactly. Exactly. Because we underestimate what we've done, and we discount things because, "Oh, it wasn't a big deal." Well, a lot of things were probably a much bigger deal than we, we give ourselves credit for.
13:30

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
13:30

Speaker 1
And I think that's one of the differences between men and women. Men will give themselves credit for anything. (laughs)
13:36

Speaker 2
(laughs)
13:36

Speaker 1
Most of them.
13:36

Speaker 2
You don't wanna get me started. (laughs)
13:38

Speaker 1
But, but...
13:39

Speaker 2
Right. (laughs)
13:39

Speaker 1
... in some way, but in some ways, that's healthier than diminishing everything that we do, which is-
13:45

Speaker 2
Right.
13:45

Speaker 1
... what we tend to do as women. We diminish what we've done versus exaggerate it. Now, neither extreme is the best. You know, maybe men exaggerate too much, and I'm generalizing-
13:57

Speaker 2
(laughs)
13:57

Speaker 1
... a whole lot here. So please, the men that are listening, I'm really not insulting them, because in a lot of ways, it, it's healthy to say, "Hey, I've done this and I'm gonna celebrate it." Versus-
14:07

Speaker 2
Also...
14:07

Speaker 1
... women who say, "Oh, I did this, but I had a team that helped me do this. And you know, it wasn't that big a deal." And you know, all the smoke and mirrors we put up in front of, rather than saying, "Hey, yeah, I did this."
14:19

Speaker 2
Yeah. We play the humble game. Here's the difference between us and men. Even if they haven't done something before and they get assigned that task, they say, "Okay, yes, I'm gonna do it."
14:30

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
14:30

Speaker 2
Where ours will say, "Uh, I've never done this before. Do you think I'm capable? Do you think I can..." Yeah. You see, the d- the response is very different (laughs) from...
14:40

Speaker 1
And honestly, one of the reasons that I did as well in my career as I did because I was never afraid to say, "Yes, I'll try it."
14:45

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. Hmm. That's a very good one. You see the confidence in there.
14:50

Speaker 1
For whatever reason, I had the confidence to say, "I will try it." There's a pivotal story in there. When I was early in my career, in my company, I was a trainer. I used to teach people how to use software. My boss came back one day from a trade show and said, "There's this customer who hates our software, is pissed off at, as hell. They want their money back, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I told them I was gonna send you up there for two days, and you are gonna teach them how to use the software, and they were gonna love it by the time you left." And (laughs) just looked at him, I'm like, "You did what?" (laughs) Like, "Hello."
15:23

Speaker 2
He had confidence in you, Ka-rin. (laughs)
15:26

Speaker 1
He had confidence in me.
15:28

Speaker 2
Yeah.
15:28

Speaker 1
But what happened was, I went up there, I spent two days. By the time I left, they loved the software.
15:33

Speaker 2
Right.
15:33

Speaker 1
They were our best users for the next five years. And that incident completely changed my view of myself and what I could accomplish. And, uh, after that, I really wasn't afraid to say, "Okay, yeah, I'll try it. I'll do it."
15:46

Speaker 2
Which means also the onus is on leaders to show their team members how much confidence, how much they trust that they can deliver.
15:54

Speaker 1
Yep.
15:55

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
15:55

Speaker 1
100%. You do have to have confidence in yourself, and you do have to say, "I'm okay doing something I haven't done before."
16:02

Speaker 2
Absolutely. Yeah. 'Cause it starts with you at the end of the day. Like you said, you are the driver of your career.
16:09

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm. You have to be. No one else is gonna drive it for you. (laughs)
16:15

Speaker 2
(laughs) Right. What do you mean when you say that female professionals, they also struggle to maintain integrity in the boardroom?
16:22

Speaker 1
Well, I think in the boardroom or in, in any executive role, you often run into situations where the company's actions or things they're doing maybe conflict with your personal values.
16:38

Speaker 2
Okay.
16:39

Speaker 1
I, I think we all run into that from time to time.
16:42

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
16:42

Speaker 1
I think some of that's normal, and sometimes you have to think, "Okay, well, this is my personal value, but you know, it is business, and I've gotta learn how to balance these things." You know, one of the things that I really focus on in my novels is y- the main character, whose name is Sheryl, you know, she goes through some of these struggles where, "Okay, this is what the company's doing. I don't like it. It's very against my personal values. Now what am I gonna do about it?" Right? and she says, "Well, maybe I should walk out. Maybe I should leave, find another job.
17:12

Speaker 1
Or is there something I can do to mitigate or to do something different with my staff or to mitigate what's going on, to honor what's going on with the employees?" I don't wanna give away the whole story, but she-
17:26

Speaker 2
Yeah. (laughs)
17:26

Speaker 1
... comes up with some pretty, some pretty creative ways of kind of coming to a, a place where she can live with herself in an-
17:33

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
17:33

Speaker 1
... environment where things are happening that she's not too happy about.
17:37

Speaker 2
'Cause speaking of values, I've always wondered, unless you have your own company where obviously every single decision you make, even if you, let's say Sheryl left, and she didn't have a creative way of finding common ground. If you keep leaving, will you ever find an organization that is 100% aligned with your values?
17:59

Speaker 1
I don't think so. I don't think you will, ever, ever will, because w- we all have different values. We all have different needs. Organizations have different needs. I don't think you'll ever find something. I think you need to find one where you, that you can live with and mean that, there may be other organizations where your values are so misaligned that you really have to leave...But at some point, you can't keep running away forever, and which I think is the point that you're making.
18:23

Speaker 1
You, you've gotta-
18:24

Speaker 2
Right.
18:24

Speaker 1
... figure out how to come up with a way to balance things and a way to see other people's points of view and then integrate that in your values or come to a way that you can feel good about yourself-
18:37

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
18:37

Speaker 1
... you, in that situation.
18:39

Speaker 2
Which then leads to us wondering, how can you build trust-
18:45

Speaker 1
Mm. Yeah.
18:45

Speaker 2
... in the work environment?
18:47

Speaker 1
Which is entirely what the last book and the novel is about, uh, in this series. It's called Embracing Trust, and it's-
18:53

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
18:53

Speaker 1
... all about trust, both personal and professional trust, uh, 'cause things were broken, but, you know, I think a lot of it is being your word. I'm sure you're familiar with the book The Four Agreements, right? And-
19:04

Speaker 2
Yes.
19:05

Speaker 1
And, and-
19:06

Speaker 2
Don't take things personally, keep your word, uh, keep up your word.
19:10

Speaker 1
Keeping your word.
19:11

Speaker 2
Yes. That's one of them as well.
19:13

Speaker 1
Yes.
19:13

Speaker 2
Yeah.
19:13

Speaker 1
And keeping your word, and that is really challenging. I recently read the book by, um, Martha Beck called The Way of Integrity. Woo-hoo, that was, uh, very challenging.
19:25

Speaker 2
I used to love her when... I think first time was Oprah, right? Back in the day.
19:28

Speaker 1
Yeah, pro- yeah, I think.
19:29

Speaker 2
Yeah?
19:29

Speaker 1
I think, I think you're right.
19:30

Speaker 2
I didn't, I didn't know she had a new book. Yes. Go ahead.
19:32

Speaker 1
It's in the last few years anyway, um-
19:34

Speaker 2
Right.
19:34

Speaker 1
But it, it's called The Way of Integrity, and it, it... She really challenges you as far as never telling a lie. You think about how often we prevaricate in not intentionally, you know, flat out blatant lies, but, you know, you shake the truth-
19:50

Speaker 2
The small talk.
19:50

Speaker 1
... a little bit, the small talk, the little white lie.
19:54

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
19:54

Speaker 1
When you really (laughs) start thinking about that, it's like, wow, but keeping your word and not telling untruths, particularly blatant untruths, is really important in building trust. You know, unfortunately, our society today, truth is, it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot in some cases. So for me personally, I think that's really important, and I think that's one of the messages in the books that I wrote and keeping your integrity and building trust in an organization, keeping your word, doing what you say you're gonna do, and following up with that, being consistent.
20:29

Speaker 2
Because here's the thing. When I know that whatever you say you'd do, follow through and you keep your word, I'm going to continue to believe what you say, because that also happens in personal relationships. If your word doesn't mean much and you just say s- you know, nice things just to make me feel better, but (laughs) your actions are not in l- alignment with that, even when you mean it, I'm gonna struggle to believe what you're saying.
20:57

Speaker 1
Absolutely. Absolutely. Trust is so important, and I think that's something that we often take for granted until it's broken.
21:05

Speaker 2
Very hard to regain.
21:06

Speaker 1
Very, very hard. Yeah.
21:07

Speaker 2
Yes.
21:08

Speaker 1
Yeah.
21:08

Speaker 2
And what-
21:09

Speaker 1
Yeah.
21:09

Speaker 2
... other challenges do your clients face when it comes to the work culture?
21:15

Speaker 1
Often, suspect this is more women than men, but you know, they have other interests, side interests, that are more interesting th- to them (laughs) sometimes than their work.
21:25

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
21:25

Speaker 1
(laughs) And I think they struggle with, you know, again, trying to balance that and find ways to, "Well, I, I like to do this, but I can't really earn money doing this. I'm earning money doing this, and I'm not really sure I like it." How do you kind of build a bridge between those things and create a career that you like or that you love even if it's not necessarily your main passion? I know they say, you know, follow your passion, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is great advice, and if you can do it, awesome. But it's not always practical.
21:57

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. True, true.
21:58

Speaker 1
Let's face it. It's not always practical.
21:59

Speaker 2
(laughs)
21:59

Speaker 1
Or sometimes, you know, you have to build a bridge between the two, kind of what, what I did a little bit, but you find things about your job that you like and that you focus on. You can build that bridge in kind of unexpected ways, and I think that's one thing that's really fun to explore with people that say, "Well, I don't like my job, and, you know, I'm not happy, and I wanna do other things." Okay, well, wh- what do you like? Pull apart what you do like about your job.
22:27

Speaker 1
What do-
22:27

Speaker 2
Right.
22:27

Speaker 1
... you enjoy doing? What can you do more of in your job? What can you delegate to somebody else if you don't like doing it? 'Cause we can actually restructure our jobs a lot more than we think we can too. I mean, a lot of people think, you know, say, "Well, this is your job, and this is what you have to do." And it's like, okay, particularly as leaders, "Okay, yeah, this is my job, but how else can I get this done besides me personally doing it?" Maybe there's somebody else on my team that loves doing this. I can have them doing it. I can dev- help them develop, and I can focus on this part of things that I like. Now, I can't ignore it. I have to keep my hands in it.
23:01

Speaker 1
I have to make sure things are getting done-
23:02

Speaker 2
Of course.
23:02

Speaker 1
... but maybe I can structure my workday a little bit more so that I can spend more time on the things that I like versus the things that are a drudge to me, and maybe there's somebody else that loves doing those things that are a drudge to me.
23:16

Speaker 2
Especially, like you said, as leaders, I mean, one of the things they expect you to do is to delegate. You're not-
23:23

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
23:23

Speaker 2
... expected to do everything yourself. That's why-
23:27

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
23:27

Speaker 2
... you have a team.
23:28

Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly.
23:28

Speaker 2
And that's how you wanna grow your team. If you don't delegate them to take care of some of the tasks, how are they going to gain the skills that they need to?
23:38

Speaker 1
Absolutely. You know, one, one of the biggest mistakes I see, well, actually managers and executives do, is micromanage people. You tell them they're c- they can do the job, but you're really kind of doing it yourself 'cause you don't trust them, right? You don't trust them.
23:53

Speaker 2
Yep.
23:53

Speaker 1
It's a leap of faith, trust, at some point. Okay, I have to trust that you're gonna do this. Yes, I'm gonna watch over you. Yes, I'm gonna make sure that you have the resources you need and that you, if you have questions, I can help you out with it. But at some point, you've gotta let go and say, "I'm gonna trust that this person can get the job done."
24:11

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
24:11

Speaker 1
Maybe they do, and maybe they don't. Hopefully they do, or hopefully you learn along the way, okay, they can do this part of it, but this part of it, they need help. Then to your point, that's how you can develop them and make them better th- by helping them.
24:23

Speaker 2
Right.I don't think anybody comes to the workplace as a finished product. (laughs)
24:28

Speaker 1
Uh, I don't think any of us come anywhere as a finished product. (laughs)
24:34

Speaker 2
(laughs) Right.
24:36

Speaker 1
Are you a finished product as a podcast host? (laughs)
24:38

Speaker 2
No. (laughs)
24:40

Speaker 1
Exactly. And I'm not a finished product as a novelist either. (laughs)
24:47

Speaker 2
If you're a leader, thinking that each time you delegate something to your team members, they're just going to do it perfectly the first time on the first day, that's very unrealistic.
24:59

Speaker 1
Exactly. Just like my first novel wasn't written right the first, on the first time through.
25:04

Speaker 2
Yes. If you trust your team and you say, "Okay," like I said, "this part they can do. Here, they need help," that's how you grow them, because the next time they will know exactly what to do and they'll probably learn something new again, you know? It just-
25:19

Speaker 1
Absolutely.
25:19

Speaker 2
... keeps being this growth journey if you see it that way, rather than... 'Cause some leaders go, "Ugh, if I did it myself instead of giving it to Karen, uh, it would have been faster. I would have done it the way I know," and usually that's the truth of the matter.
25:33

Speaker 1
Which is probably true, which is probably true.
25:36

Speaker 2
Yeah.
25:36

Speaker 1
But at some point you have to say, "I can't do this all myself and I have to let other people do it."
25:41

Speaker 2
Right.
25:42

Speaker 1
Even though you probably can do it 10 times faster, at least the first time they do it. I mean, yes, that's true, but you have to let go and accept that.
25:50

Speaker 2
And then one last thing, when it comes to the communication and the soft skills, in your novels, are there any parts where, not to give the story away, parts where you do come to the realization that Sheryl, because she was able to focus on the skills, this is why she had success in this particular area?
26:13

Speaker 1
A- absolutely, and again, without giving it away, but in Discovering Power, I will tell you, you know, the, the book opens with a bunch of layoffs happening, they're in a not very good way, and she's very upset with that. She comes up with some very creative ideas, very good soft skill way to work with her team in order to help them overcome that trauma, rather than just pushing it under the table, which is how we're so often taught to do in corporate. "Okay, the layoffs happened. You know, let it go, move on," right?
26:47

Speaker 2
Mm.
26:48

Speaker 1
So she decided to approach it a little bit differently, and-
26:52

Speaker 2
Yep.
26:52

Speaker 1
... I love the outcome that is in that book, but it, it's definitely using soft skills and definitely approaching something as traumatic as a layoff very differently than you'd normally see in a corporate environment.
27:05

Speaker 2
That is going to be a very exciting read.
27:09

Speaker 1
(laughs)
27:09

Speaker 2
Awesome stuff. Keryn Ann Bullock, any last words of wisdom? Anything that you feel that your clients should continue to work on in order to be the drivers of their careers, discover their own power?
27:26

Speaker 1
Well, I think there's two things. There's one is stay curious, 'cause curiosity is one of the best tools that you can have, and the other thing is don't be afraid to take a risk, even if it's just a little one. I think one of the things that I always say when I'm talking to people about taking risks, and this is really important, we often come up with a whole list of reasons why we can't take a risk. "I can't ask for that promotion because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," or, "I can't do this because blah, blah, blah." You know, long list of reasons. In my experience, 90% of the time, those reasons are really excuses.
27:59

Speaker 2
Mm.
28:00

Speaker 1
So one of the questions that, that I always say, and we should always all do this, is when you start to list all the reasons you can't do something, take a hard look at them and ask yourself, "Are these really valid reasons, or are they excuses?" Because a lot of times you'll find out that they're excuses, not reasons.
28:20

Speaker 2
One of my favorite quotes is Ty Bennett saying, "All excuses are equal."
28:24

Speaker 1
That's a great quote, absolutely.
28:27

Speaker 2
Yes, because what excuses do, I think, is, how does my mom say it? "You're hiding behind your thumb."
28:35

Speaker 1
Yes.
28:35

Speaker 2
Yeah.
28:35

Speaker 1
They let us off the hook.
28:37

Speaker 2
Yes. They let us o- So, yes, are they really valid reasons, or are you just trying to use them as a scapegoat to not have the confidence to say, "Hey, wait a minute, I deserve this. I've worked for this."
28:50

Speaker 1
Exactly.
28:51

Speaker 2
"I have this skill."
28:52

Speaker 1
Exactly.
28:52

Speaker 2
"I can contribute this week." Yes. Thank you so much, Keryn Ann Bullock, for this very fun conversation and for sharing the details of your novels, especially the one coming up which we're really excited about. We really appreciate you being on our show today. Thank you, Keryn.
29:09

Speaker 1
Well, thank you for having me, Roberta. Uh, it, it's been a great conversation, lots of fun, and if anybody wants to get in touch with me afterwards, you can find me on LinkedIn or at my website, daring2transcend.com.
29:21

Speaker 2
Okay. Please repeat the website again.
29:23

Speaker 1
Daring2transcend.com.
29:26

Speaker 2
Daring2transcend.com. We will put that on the show notes. Thank you so much, Keryn. Here to-
29:32

Speaker 1

Thank you, Roberta.
29:33

Speaker 2
My absolute pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come. (instrumental music)