Speaking and Communicating Podcast

If you have the communication down, then you can address anything. Even with infidelity, once we've gotten through that, you just need to get those skills down. I try to tell them that, "We can equip you with the tools to address any possible scenario as long as you can just get those really solid communication tools down."
00:23

Speaker 2
(intro music plays) Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast that you'll be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now let's get communicating. Now let's get communicating with our guest today joining us from Denver. Kayla Crane is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she's here to talk to us about not only relationships, but communication, couples in therapy, and what works. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Kayla.
01:20

Speaker 1
Hi. It's nice to meet you.
01:22

Speaker 2
Nice to meet you as well. Welcome to the show. Why is it that of all the careers you could have chosen, you chose to help people with their relationships?
01:33

Speaker 1
Yeah. I first got into becoming a therapist just because I've had my own ... a lot of my own therapy. I found it so beneficial and actually life-changing, so I was really motivated to help others. And I never thought I was gonna be a relationship therapist, but I got ... At a practice, they set me up with one couple to work with, and I ended up loving it. It was great watching the dynamic and seeing the work in front of me rather than handing people tools and, "Let me know how that goes." I just loved it. And so I specialize in exclusively couples now.
02:11

Speaker 2
So you had tested the waters with individual therapy before meeting that couple?
02:18

Speaker 1
No. I had worked with a lot of individuals before, and then I was working at a group practice. I had just gotten assigned a couple from the group practice, and I was really nervous and apprehensive, but I loved it. It went great. I got a letter from them about six months later that they had actually went and gotten married. They weren't married before. And I was so motivated, and I was like, "This is amazing." It's very clear to see the progress.
02:48

Speaker 2
Congratulations to them and to you for doing such great work.
02:51

Speaker 1
(chuckles)
02:51

Speaker 2
Now, when it comes to couples, do you find that Kayla's version of the story versus my version and the truth ... Do you find that because both people are in the room, there's less chance of somebody not telling the truth 'cause they know that the other person is gonna be there to witness?
03:12

Speaker 1
(laughs) My experience has been that not so often are people not telling the truth as much as their perspective is just very different than what's happening. They really see things through their own filter, their own lens. Especially when the relationship's in a really not great place, they start seeing things through a pretty negative lens. Right? And they make these assumptions and judgments and things like that. Occasionally, people are just being dishonest, but for the most part, it's just their different perceptions. Something I can really offer is seeing things from that outside perspective, because that's very different from the two people that are in it. They see things completely differently, and then I see things differently than both of them, because I'm removed from it. And so that's one of the benefits of a therapist having that outside perspective.
04:11

Speaker 2
Does that mean that if one of the spouses feels unheard by the other one, and maybe they've been telling them the same thing over and over again, "You don't see me, you don't hear me," if you say it as the outsider, does it suddenly become something that they listen to?
04:30

Speaker 1
Often, yes. Usually, I would say it in a different way, because if what their partner is saying, it's not landing, then I'll try and go at it in a different direction. Sometimes I can just say it, and they can hear things a little more clearly. But for the most part, because of my training, I can help facilitate more understanding from someone else because I have tools and resources that they hadn't yet developed. And so that's where I can really help communicate it and then help the listener validate that experience. The speaker who keeps saying the same thing, they'll continue to say it. They'll continue to try to make their point until their partner validates them, because validation is really communicating, "I hear you. I understand what your experience is. I hear what you're trying to share with me." But without that, even if the partner says, "I get it, I get it," well, that's not enough. You need to validate.
05:33

Speaker 1
You need to explain to your partner, "I do get it," and relate to them what their experience must be like for them.
05:40

Speaker 2
Because a lot of the time is, "But I've been telling you this for months, and you don't hear me."
05:45

Speaker 1
(laughs)
05:45

Speaker 2
Because usually, we think when we nag and when we keep repeating over and over again, we're communicating, and it's not landing on the other person, and we don't understand why.
05:58

Speaker 1
Right.
05:58

Speaker 2
"'Cause I've been saying it for months, and I've said it a hundred times."
06:01

Speaker 1
Yeah. Or it is landing and they're not able to communicate that they get it, right? It's like, "Yes, I understand." But no, you don't. But no, you don't. And so, that's where the validation can really demonstrate, "I did hear you. I understand what you're going through. I'm listening to you."
06:21

Speaker 2
'Cause that's what we all need. Now, when couples come to you, usually at what stages of the rough patch are they in? Is it when they're on the verge of divorce? When things are really heated up? Do they think, "Let's go to therapy and try to save this marriage?"
06:40

Speaker 1
More often than not, that's the case, when it's the last effort. Sometimes you get people that are proactive, but definitely more that they're at a point where it's this or that's gonna be the end of the relationship. If they can't get back on track, then this is kind of their last stop.
07:00

Speaker 2
And what have you found, especially if they come to you, are they more prone to listening to suggestions and whatever tools you ask them to implement so that they can try and save their marriage? Or have you found that sometimes one or even both are literally giving up?
07:19

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
07:19

Speaker 2
They're just thinking, "Oh, it's just something we're gonna take and say we did everything we could to save our marriage. Hey, even therapy didn't work."
07:26

Speaker 1
So, I think it's a little of both. A lot of times, they say, "We will try it. We wanna do anything. We wanna fix things," but then, in reality, they're in such a negative place with their partner that they can't even really imagine doing that. So, they say, "That's what we want. We wanna fix things," but then, they might already have a wall built up, or they might already be so closed off that they're not even open-minded enough to see things, to the idea that their partner might be different, that they could be different, that they could interact in a way that works, that they could have a healthy relationship. And in those instances, it's really for us to really do so much of the work in session. I might give them some homework to work on things. And then we just really need to spend our sessions doing all of that until they can build a little bit of trust in their partner.
08:26

Speaker 1
A lot of times, I'll keep going back to the question, "Why are you here?" And they'll say eventually, "Because I wanna be with them." And I'll say, "Why?" "Because I love them." But that piece really gets lost sometimes. People will be surprised to hear their partner say, "I'm here because I love them, because I wanna make it work," because they're at such a place that that part, it's not even there anymore from each of their perspectives.
08:54

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
08:54

Speaker 1
They're not seeing these positive intentions from their partner. They're only seeing, "They wanna hurt me. They don't love me anymore." And you know, people aren't here for fun. (laughs) They're here because they wanna fix things, but yeah, that piece can really get lost when you're at such a challenging spot in your relationship.
09:13

Speaker 2
You know how they talk about how ... that couples should date each other and, especially if they have kids, try to remind each other why they fell in love in the first place? 'Cause they get caught up in the household, the bills, the life, and all the things that they need to do.
09:30

Speaker 1
Yeah.
09:30

Speaker 2
So, maybe that's why sometimes they even get surprised that, "Hey, this person says she loves me? I forgot about that."
09:38

Speaker 1
Yeah. Right.
09:38

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
09:38

Speaker 1
Real life takes over, especially with kids, with busy jobs, finance, all the things that unfortunately, a lot of times, the relationship gets put on the back burner. And after so long of that, you can really forget that. I hear people a lot of times come in and say, "Maybe we're just not compatible anymore," and that's very rarely the case. It's usually there's just been such a lack of healthy, positive communication that they become almost like strangers.
10:10

Speaker 2
Now, let's talk about couples. Some churches do offer marriage counseling to engage couples to see if they're compatible. Do you have couples who are engaged coming to you as a therapist to say, "We wanna see if we're on the right track"?
10:27

Speaker 1
Yeah, I do some premarital counseling. A lot of times, they're just setting themselves up for success as best as possible, which is obviously ideal, coming in before you're at a critical point. It's not often the case. I mean, that's the best thing you can do, right? Come in and before the communication's at a negative place, where you are still receptive and under the belief that your partner loves you and wants to be in the relationship, because also then, you can talk about the challenges. It's easier to talk about those difficult times when you're not in a good place. Yeah, the premarital counseling, I highly recommend, and even if people are already married, it's a great idea to occasionally get some support before things get too big. Let's just work on some communication tools and see what's working, what pieces we can strengthen, how we can prepare ourselves, 'cause you're gonna hit a hard time no matter what.
11:28

Speaker 2
Yeah.
11:28

Speaker 1
And how we can prepare our relationship for those challenging times.
11:33

Speaker 2
There's definitely gonna be a hard time. And when we talk about compatibility as well, what exactly makes people compatible enough to become a couple? Are the things that we use to measure compatibility valid? Does it mean we must like the same football team? We must both like travel. I love traveling, sh- sh- does that mean everybody who loves traveling, I could be compatible with them? Like, what are some of the, say, top three, at most, five things?... That'll make somebody compatible with another person. And then obviously, it's not gonna be everything, but then the rest they can figure out.
12:17

Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, I don't know how much I believe in the idea of compatibility. It's more of, do you like each other, (laughs) and are you both willing to do what it takes to be in this relationship? Some relationships are m- more challenging than others. I work with a lot of attachment styles, and you can have two of the same attachment styles, like two anxiously attached people. That's gonna be a challenging relationship.
12:45

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
12:45

Speaker 1
Two avoidantly attached people, you can have those relationships, but you need to know how to work with it. So, those are complementary to anxious and avoidant attachment styles. They complement each other 'cause they kinda look opposite. Again, that can work against people, but if you know how to operate and what tools you need, they can really pair together. They can complement each other nicely. I think in general, it's like, do you like your partner? Do you want to be with them? Are you willing to do these challenging things? Are you willing to do what it takes? Do you feel safe enough with your partner? Because it's really scary to be vulnerable with each other.
13:29

Speaker 2
Right.
13:29

Speaker 1
So that's how I look at it.
13:31

Speaker 2
Do you really like this person as a human being, outside of having feelings for them? Somebody once made an example of, you're on a swing or something and even though no words are said, you just like the fact that this person is next to you. Do you really, really like them as a person? Because obviously, we want the spark and the feelings and the roses and the chocolates at the beginning, but there comes a time when something a little more solid needs to keep the relationship going.
14:03

Speaker 1
Yeah. And I talk to people about assuming best intentions. You know, your partner is not waking up in the morning thinking, "How can I hurt my partner?"
14:14

Speaker 2
I hope not. (laughs)
14:16

Speaker 1
Usually, not the case. And so instead of just thinking, "They're just here to hurt me," no, they probably have good intentions. It's just not working right now. But that's such a big piece, is just being able to look at things a little bit differently. Like, it can be true that they've hurt you, and they've done things that have damaged the relationship, but at the end of the day, can you believe that they want to be with you, that they care about you, that they love you? Because without that, you've got nothing. If you just live in that belief, that, "My partner does not like me, they want to hurt me," if you are sold on that, you can't move forward if that's what you're convinced of.
15:03

Speaker 2
Yeah, I don't think you can literally (laughs) be in the same house as somebody that you think is out to hurt you. Obviously, couples come to you for different reasons, but what have you found has been the number one reason that was the center of their marriage problems, so to speak?
15:21

Speaker 1
I specialize in relational trauma and infidelity. So, in that instance, I see m- a majority of infidelity clients. But every single couple will say they need to work on communication. And that's true. If you have the communication down, then you can address anything. Even with infidelity, once we've gotten through that, when I prepare them to continue the relationship once they've processed the infidelity, you just need to get those skills down. And then, sometimes people wanna address every possible scenario that might come up in the future, which that's not possible. I try to tell them that we can't do that. What we can do, though, is we can equip you with the tools to address any possible scenario, which is transferable to every single thing, as long as you can just get those really solid communication tools down.
16:23

Speaker 2
When there's infidelity, is the person who steps out, do they feel that whatever they were communicating to their spouse and thinking, "You don't see me, you don't hear me, I need this from you," do they then find it in the person that they're cheating with? Would that be the reason?
16:42

Speaker 1
Sometimes. Sometimes it's an escape from reality, almost like substance abuse. But if they're not feeling heard or seen or that they're getting the attention that they're looking for, and they have that opportunity, uh, from someone outside of the marriage or relationship, that could be part of what they're seeking, is to fill that need that is not getting filled by their partner in their relationship. So, that is often the case.
17:12

Speaker 1
(laughs)
17:12

Speaker 2
And do you feel that the wronged partner, with the tools that they use and having therapy sessions with you, uh, they then able to look past it? And do they really go back to trusting their partner again after an infidelity?
17:28

Speaker 1
I wouldn't say look past it. They've gotta go through. There's a lot of work that takes to move forward from infidelity, and they need to, again, feel heard, feel validated. They need to understand what happened, that their partner needs to be accountable. That's a huge piece, is everyone comes in wanting to know why this happened. And without having that answer, it's really difficult to regain trust, right? Because if you don't know the reason, then it can kind of sneak up on you at any time. But once we've done that, once we've gotten the understanding as to why...The process that I use, we go through their entire relationship history as part of the infidelity therapy, and so we highlight all of the stuff that wasn't going right, and that could be in a 30-year relationship. There's just lots of things that are just compiled, and these things probably haven't been addressed, or they haven't been addressed sufficiently.
18:37

Speaker 1
And so, in going through this process, that we do address all of that. It takes a while to regain trust, but yeah, they do eventually get there. That's part of the repair if they do stay together. It's a long process. It's just an ongoing process you keep going through, and how can we continue to rebuild trust? I give the analogy all the time of, like, a brick wall when there's been infidelity. All the bricks are on the floor. Every time you ask your partner something and they're ... tell the truth, that's putting another brick in the wall. Every time you look at their location or something and they are where they said, that's another brick in the wall. And so you just need a lot of bricks to regain that trust. And they won't stay with me until they're 100% back at that trust, 'cause it is a long process, but they'll develop the tools to continue rebuilding that trust and security in the relationship.
19:42

Speaker 2
Trust, once lost, it's really a wrong, (laughs) a long road to get it back.
19:49

Speaker 1
Yes, yeah.
19:49

Speaker 2
Now, speaking of their relationship history, have you found that sometimes some people either just married for the wrong reasons or they should just not have been together to begin with?
20:03

Speaker 1
Yes. (laughs)
20:04

Speaker 2
(laughs)
20:04

Speaker 1
We do see that. Usually, at that point, they wouldn't really be interested in infidelity therapy, because if they were in it for the wrong reasons, it's an incredibly painful process going through infidelity therapy. It's a scary process trying to trust again, and again, back to assuming best intentions. If you don't really like your partner, you're not gonna be assuming best intentions. And so it's really gonna be hard to repair if that's where you're at, if you don't have that foundation of love.
20:42

Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, there's so many reasons. We're married for the reasons, we're married for money. It's not even that. I think sometimes whether it's a pressure for the woman because she's of a certain age and all her friends are married, whatever it is, I think sometimes there's just circumstances that drive people to just say, "You know what? The next guy that proposes, I'm accepting, 'cause I'm tired of being alone," which then can start piling up all kinds of issues that would then lead to Kayla's office.
21:14

Speaker 1
Yeah, the part of the process that we go through is once we've gone through all the history, once they've gotten that why and the understanding about why it's happened, that's when I ask them to choose a path, and the path could be to stay together and then we work toward that. It could be to separate, to break up, whatever it is. But if they've chosen to stay together, then we do go through that why. Is the choice because you don't wanna be alone? That's not a good reason. Is the choice because you can't afford to be alone? Well, that's not a good reason, right? And so we've really gotta determine is it truly something you want? Do you love your partner? Is it you want to be with them? Not do you have to be with them? Do you need to be with them? Like, is it something you want? That's a good reason to stay together, to have a happy relationship.
22:10

Speaker 1
Again, going through this incredibly painful, vulnerable process, there needs to be a really solid foundation and something you're really working towards.
22:19

Speaker 2
'Cause you've mentioned sometimes it's because people cannot afford to be alone, so they need to stay.
22:24

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
22:25

Speaker 2
But usually, sometimes one of the top reasons is the kids.
22:31

Speaker 1
Yeah.
22:31

Speaker 2
Do they come to you and say, "Kayla, please help us save our marriage because we still have dependent kids. They're still young. We're trying to keep-"
22:39

Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
22:40

Speaker 2
"... the home together instead of sharing custody," and that kind of thing?
22:44

Speaker 1
Yeah, at that point, you know, we evaluate what's best for the kids. If they're in a household with both parents, that's not all that needs to be in place, because if both of those parents are in the same house, but they're screaming at each other or even not liking each other or being unkind, that's not healthy for the kids. At that point, it would be healthier for them to live separately and hopefully be happy either by themselves, with somebody else, whatever that looks like. Sometimes people think what's best for the kids is that we are together. No matter what, as long as mom and dad are in the same house, that's what's best for the kids. So I really can help people change their view on that. That's not necessarily the healthiest thing for the kids, right? Like, I work with trauma, relational trauma in, in childhood. That can cause far more damage having two parents that are in constant conflict than having two parents that are happy in two different homes.
23:50

Speaker 1
So I think just going through all that is super important.
23:54

Speaker 2
And speaking of relational trauma, a lot of single people think, "Okay, okay, I need to work on myself. I need to heal. I need to go to therapy every week to heal so that I don't attract another person with their own trauma and we just have this trauma bond," as they call it. Do you find that-Some of the couples you counsel, some people brought their trauma into the relation, and they bonded with the trauma?
24:26

Speaker 1
Yes. I think that's definitely can be the case. When I say relational trauma, I look at trauma that's happened inside of the relationship, but also trauma that's happened outside of the relationship that's impacting their current relationship. Yeah, y- it's really important to sort through that and examine. With the trauma and all of those pieces, it's hard to sometimes pick apart what's what there, and so I can help people sort all of that out. What part of this is that trauma bond kinda thing, or what part of this is just individual trauma, pain, whatever else is going on there?
25:13

Speaker 2
Mm-hmm. And if I have my own trauma, it doesn't mean getting married is suddenly gonna make it go away?
25:20

Speaker 1
Definitely (laughs) that's the case. You can't have the expectation that somebody else is just gonna fix it, you know? A rel- partner, you can't expect them to fix it. But also, just because you're not thinking about it, sometimes people will kind of, "I'm feeling so great in my relationship that this doesn't even impact me anymore," usually, it's still... Trauma lives inside of your body, so even if you're not consciously thinking about it, it's still there. You're still gonna have responses as a result of that trauma until you've processed it. A relationship will not cure that in itself. You can support your partner, and sometimes in a very healthy relationship, it can definitely contribute to the healing, just having that supportive person, especially if usually you're put in a very unsafe situation, in whatever way that looks like. And so having somebody that is safe, that you can count on and rely on can really be conducive to healing the trauma, but that in itself won't do it.
26:33

Speaker 2
So, they say the divorce rate is over 50%. What would be your last words of wisdom for couples to have better communication skills and tools so that they, first of all, avoid the statistic, and that each person in the relationship feels seen and heard and validated?
26:56

Speaker 1
Couples therapy works. (laughs)
26:58

Speaker 2
Yeah.
26:59

Speaker 1
That's one piece. Vulnerability, that can really change everything. When you're in a hard place, there's so much anger that's coming across, and that's just pushing your partner away, but under the anger, there's something more vulnerable, and so if you're willing to get to that piece rather than getting mad at your partner for whatever they've done, being able to communicate, "That was really hurtful for me," or, "I felt really scared when that happened," that vulnerability will bring them closer versus the anger that will push them away. So, I think just willing to be vulnerable and just get curious about your partner. Don't make those negative assumptions. Get curious. "What is this like for you? How are you feeling right now? What's your experience right now?" That can really go a long way.
27:51

Speaker 2
Always be concerned about their feelings. Kayla Crane, the licensed marriage and family therapist from Denver who specializes in relational trauma and infidelity, we appreciate you sharing your perspective and the work that you do with couples with us today.
28:10

Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
28:12

Speaker 2
My absolute pleasure. Before you go, where can our listeners and viewers find you online?
28:18

Speaker 1

Yeah, www.southdenvertherapy.com. Also, Instagram, Facebook @southdenvertherapy.
28:25

Speaker 2
Thank you very much. Don't forget to subscribe, and stay tuned for more episodes to come. (gentle piano music)