Communication Skills For Leaders w/ Michael deLisser
He got permission from these senior executives that had been fired, and they were trying to find new work. And so he was an outplacement coach.
So everyone he worked with had been fired for one reason or another, and his job was to help them find new work.
And it was fascinating to me that these senior executives had been fired, but almost everything my father was coaching them on was communication skills. And so they hadn't been fired based on technical skills.
They had all been fired because of communication mistakes or bad habits, or something related to communication.
Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast. I am your host Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.
Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify, and leave us a rating and a review. Now let's get communicating.
Now let's get communicating with our guest today, joining us from Nevada. His name is Michael DeLisser. He is the co-founder of DeLisser Leadership Consulting Firm.
He's the author of Leadership Accelerators and is here to help us with practical habits that strengthen relationships and help us improve our leadership, which is the main theme of this show.
And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi, Michael.
Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have a good conversation with you today.
And I'm excited that you're here.
Welcome to the show. When I saw your profile, I just thought, Oh, wow, everything is just such a perfect fit. Even the way you sound, it's almost like you helped us with the theme of this podcast.
So what is it about communication skills have you so passionate about the subject?
Communication Skills Genesis
It started when I was 15 years old.
I grew up in a house where my father was a communication skills coach. He was coaching Fortune 100 executives in New York City. And I'm from New York originally.
He got permission from these senior executives that had been fired, and they were trying to find new work. And so he was an outplacement coach. So everyone he worked with had been fired for one reason or another.
And his job was to help them find new work. He on multiple occasions would invite me in and get permission in advance from the executives that had been fired, to let me sit in on these coaching sessions.
And it was fascinating to me that these senior executives had been fired, but almost everything my father was coaching them on was communication skills. And so they hadn't been fired based on technical skills.
They had all been fired because of communication mistakes or bad habits, or something related to communication.
That was a huge eye opener for me that people could reach very high levels of organizations, senior vice presidents and things like that, and end up being fired because of their communication skills or lack thereof.
And so that was a big eye opener for me, and it made me realize that companies were really failing people as well, because they kept promoting them based on their technical skills.
And then eventually they got to a point where their success was mostly dependent on their communication skills, and they had not been receiving communication skills training along the way.
And you received those lessons at age 15, because you were watching your dad. We always say that the thing about these skills is that nobody emphasizes them at school. They just emphasize whatever technical field you're going to pursue.
So that was your first realization that, hey, wait a minute, these people are actually really good at their jobs, but they got fired because of communication skills.
Yeah, and it's a very common pattern. You know, you see it happen. It's called the Peter Principle for some of your listeners that aren't familiar.
But it's the idea that we get promoted to our highest level of incompetence, not competence, but incompetence. And it happens because our first promotions are almost always based on technical skills, and maybe even the second promotion.
But with each level you get and the higher you get, your success is dependent on your ability to get results through others, and you're not doing the technical work.
And that's why people ultimately, they have a really fast trajectory, and then at some point their communication skills or lack thereof catch up with them. And it's been going on.
I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, 30 years now, probably, since watching my dad way back when. And I keep seeing the same pattern happening over and over. And that's where my passion came from.
I want to do something to help these executives or help leaders at any level before they get themselves into trouble.
And they have to understand that with AI and technology advances, your communication skills will become way more important in your future than any of your technical skills.
So, they were made aware when they were fired that that's the reason?
Yes.
Okay. And that's when they approached your dad. So, how is it that your dad had the technical know-how in order to help them with this communication and soft skills?
Where did he get that knowledge and expertise?
Coaching Methods Impact
He did a lot of reading.
And he did a lot of workshops and things. But, you know, he was originally a football coach, an American football coach, and he had to coach his players by doing repeated drills.
Like, they were just practicing the same fundamentals of the skills of each role over and over and over. And so, he combined that with learning about different communication skills.
When he started to see the pattern emerging, that they were all having the same issue.
He did his research and then he, you know, when you have a communication issue, it doesn't go away overnight because it's usually been developed throughout your whole life. And more often than not, our habits today were formed during childhood.
And so, the way that you overcome it is daily focus and daily practice. And what he would do in these one-on-one coaching sessions is communication skills drills, you know, where they kept doing the same practice thing over and over.
And whatever habit they had or whatever it was they were struggling with, he would get them to practice it over and over. And then he would get them to do it in the workplace after they left the coach.
I use that same fundamental principles and or approach when I coach people now is I help them raise their self-awareness. And once people are self-aware, they become sufficiently motivated to want to improve.
And then I give them activities and things to practice on a daily basis in regular conversations to help them overcome whatever it was that got them into trouble. And fortunately for me, I get to do it inside of companies before they get fired.
So it's a lot better outcome for everybody.
Hopefully, it doesn't come to that point. And speaking of self-awareness, let's just go back to these executives.
I don't know how much of this your dad shared with you, but did he find that also it affected their personal relationships, this lack of communication skills?
Yeah, most definitely. I could tell you just when I look back over the last 20 years of all the executives I coached, same issue just happening over and over and over generation after generation.
So yeah, and I will tell you that a lot of times when I do communication skills, coaching or training at the executive level or any level, I regularly get feedback. They say, you know what?
This was helpful at work, but it was really helpful at home to help me with my spouse, with my children. There's no question the fundamentals are the same, whether you're at work or at home.
And if you get really good at the fundamentals, that's where you start to really make a difference. And it could be any area. You know, there's four areas in particular that I focus with people on.
There's presentation skills, which is very targeted, and I do a lot of coaching executives one-on-one with that. But then there's interpersonal skills and coaching skills.
And I do a lot of work in helping people improve their ability to do those things. And meeting management, any area of communication that they're going to be.
The four areas that I see making the biggest difference are presentations, one-on-one coaching, meeting management, and writing skills.
Any leader that can get really strong in all four of those areas will stand out as different from everyone else, because more often than not, people are not good at all four of those things.
And why do you say that companies set up leaders to fail?
Well, they don't do it deliberately, but what they do is they see someone that has real potential, and they promote them, and they're like, oh, this person could do a great job at the management level.
But what they don't do is give them the training at each level they'll need to become more and more successful. And so another thing I work with people on is even emotional intelligence.
You know, some of these people get fired because they handled an argument poorly, or they had an outburst in a meeting in front of clients or something like that. And it's because they had not really developed their emotional intelligence either.
You know, when you look at the original research that was done by Daniel Goleman about emotional intelligences, the higher you go in the organization, the more critical it becomes that you become more skilled in managing your own emotions and reading
the emotions of others and being able to respond well to others. And it even gets to the point where it's twice as important as any technical skills you have, the higher you get in the organization.
You know, all the research backs it up, and all of the issues that you see these people getting let go for are the same things that I teach.
And I try to help them prevent having those issues by making them aware that if they don't work on these things, even if the companies don't provide the training they need, they should be working on it on their own.
And the book that I wrote is exactly that.
It's about helping them raise their self-awareness, giving them alternative behaviors, and then giving them some resources to help them on a daily basis work on overcoming those things that may be holding them back in their career success.
Right.
And speaking of emotional intelligence, Michael, if you think about it, have you had any clients who come to you and say, look, humans are complex, I'm not good with people, I just want to do my job, but I like the promotion because it comes with
It's funny.
I mean, a lot of times people, I mean, they may have this idea of becoming a leader, but until they get into that role and they realize how critical communication skills are, they don't really know what they're getting themselves into.
So some people, they really don't want to necessarily work on some of these things, but at the same time, their career starts to show them that if they don't get better at these things, they're going to have a harder time retaining employees.
They're going to have a hard time landing those bigger deals with their customers, developing trust with their peers. I mean, they start to realize more and more that their success is strongly tied to their communication skills.
I was watching a documentary the other day. So when Satellite TV was installed in South Africa and the rest of the continent, there's this guy, he was the first chairman or managing director of Multi-choice, which is our DSTV supplier.
I was watching his documentary, and when he went to all these African countries, Nigeria, Kenya, all of them, he said the one common thing, the one thing he learned was he was able to get into those spaces because of the relationships he had built.
Yeah.
When you think about it, I mean, most jobs, when you look at where people get their next role from, it's usually through the networking and through the relationships that they had, you know, and I think like 70% or more is usually through, I haven't
looked at any recent statistics, but the last time I looked, 70% or more of jobs get landed because they worked a personal relationship, right? And so if you don't have those strong relationships, if you've not found ways to convey your needs or get
people that want to help you, it's going to hurt you as well. So having strong relationships is, as I mentioned, work, home, it all will come back to impacting your success, whether it's work success or even friend success or family success.
Book Insights Multitasking
So now let's talk about your book Leadership Accelerators.
You said that you shared some practical habits from there. Can we go through some of them? And if you have any exercises or anything you would like to practice with me to demonstrate for our listeners and viewers, that would be great as well.
Sure.
So the book itself focuses on the three areas of communication that I see having the biggest positive impact on leaders in their ability to be successful and retain people and develop strong relationships.
I focus on helping people improve their emotional intelligence, helping them increase their self-awareness of the habits that they have, the ones that help them, but the ones that also might be holding them back, the communication habits.
And the third area is how their personality preferences impact their overall success. You know, where does it help them and what situations and where could their preferences hurt them in what situations?
And what I found over the last 20 plus years is that when I'm coaching people, if I can help them become really self-aware in all three of those areas, you know, where they're strong in emotional intelligence, what habits that might be holding them
back and what habits do they need to unlearn in order to be successful? And then also the ability to really understand how to leverage your personality strengths and minimize the impact of your personality potential vulnerabilities.
Those three things are what I focus on. And the book itself is designed in a format that says, okay, there's self-assessments almost in every chapter.
And it's, okay, here's the self-assessment, fill it out yourself, get some other people to fill it out to make sure that your self-perception matches the perceptions of others.
Once you learn about that, you know, apply the 80-20 rule and what are the one or two things that you can work on that will have the biggest positive overall effect on your relationships and your results, and then focus on improving in those areas.
So I help them raise awareness. I give them specific things they can do to improve in each of those areas that they want to work on. And then I give them a way to plan how they're going to apply it on a daily basis.
And so anytime you're working on communication skills, you have to be willing to devote daily time to it.
I don't care if it's five or 10 minutes a day, but if you don't work on it daily, you will not overcome those habits that you developed a long time ago.
It does need daily practice because you are always constantly communicating because it's not just verbal.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of it's nonverbal.
In fact, I mean, one of the activities that I do in my workshops is I, you know, I just ask the question, how much of the meaning of what you say you think is in the words versus the tone of voice versus the gestures.
I get all kinds of different, you know, I think about 80% is the words or whatever, but then I just do one example and I'll just do this. I'll say, I am not mad. And I'll say, how much of the meaning was in the words?
And they'll be like, well, almost none of it. It's all in the gestures and the tone of voice.
So when you demonstrate that, you know, people start to recognize that maybe I should be spending more time focusing on the non-verbals, especially if they are not matching the words that are coming out of someone's mouth, because you may need to ask
Yes, because here's the thing, when it comes to non-verbal, if you don't pay attention to those gestures, even the person who's communicating them through body language or tone or whatever, you've lost them if you ignore that, because they are trying
to communicate to you how they're feeling about the issue at the moment. You know how when we make small talk and we don't really mean what we're saying?
Right.
And so if I just take what Michael is saying, but it's not really what meaning, it's almost like I'm looking for a way out of the conversation, and you can tell.
Yeah. And the habits that we have, and a lot of people don't know this, but there's actually a physiological reason why we develop all these habits, right?
And so the average person speaks about 150 words per minute, but the average person can hear up to even 600 words per minute, right?
So what you have is like this 450 word per minute gap going on in your brain where your mind can work faster than the words coming out of the other person's mouth.
And so half the battle is slowing down your brain to fully absorb everything the other person is saying.
Because if you have a habit of interrupting others, or if you have a habit of thinking of other things or daydreaming or judgments about the other person, the way that you overcome those habits is you dial down twice as much on focusing on the other
person, and it starts to shut down the little voice in your brain that's constantly talking to you with questions to ask or disagreeing with what the person is saying. If you can get that to stop or even slow down, even if you don't get it to stop,
if you can get it to stop or stay focused on the other person, you're going to hear more, you're going to absorb more, you're going to be able to respond in a more effective way. if you can get it to stop or stay focused on the other person, you're
Communication Education Future
Now, I believe that you used to teach leadership communications at the University of Utah.
What were some of the key things that you needed to highlight to those students?
I'll give the university credit for this. They went out and asked for feedback from the people that were hiring their graduates, and they were saying, they're all really smart, but we'd really like you to work on their communication skills more.
That's the area that we'd like to see the strength come out. They brought me in and myself and one other professor.
We co-designed this program that's specifically about building presentation skills, meeting management skills, one-on-one coaching skills, and or interpersonal skills like handling emotional conversations, things like that. And then writing skills.
And so we built this curriculum with the intention that it's going to give them the four things that they need to be successful once they get into leadership roles. And so it was very intensively focused on skill building and self-awareness raising.
And it became a required course as part of the curriculum. You could not go through the MBA program unless you took this.
And to this day, they're still implementing that class and they're doing it at the undergraduate level as well because they realize that, you know, the future success of their graduates is going to be tied to how well they communicate.
I'm so glad that you say that the leaders from companies were the ones who required that the course be given. Because we should always say, why is it that schools, why is it that institutions are not emphasizing on this?
Basically, the only people that we know who study communications are the ones who major in communication. Yeah, if that's what they focus on. But it's not a requirement, as you just explained.
So are you saying that it's becoming more apparent that, hey, wait a minute, this is necessary for everybody, no matter what it is that they're studying.
I would say it's becoming more apparent. I'd also say kudos to the university for actually filling the gap that the companies were not doing for their own people.
So the way I would look at it is, if you're a senior leader and a manager, you need to ask the question, what are we doing to prepare our team to be successful in talking with our customers, with working cross-functionally in different departments?
What are we doing to prepare them? Because when budgets get tight, the first thing they do is they cut training budgets, and training goes first, it's seen as an extra.
But it's not considered an extra to your customers who are not getting the service that they need or whatever else it might be. It's pretty critical.
And I would tell you that the issue is worse now than when I first watched my father coaching these executives, because technology is advancing so much faster, and AI is replacing a lot of our technical work.
I mean, anyone listening to this podcast, if they wrote down a list of all the things in their current role that are technology related and or communication skills related, there's probably a very good chance that if you ask them which of the jobs or
tasks that you do are likely to be replaced by AI, it's going to be their technical skills. AI can help you write an e-mail, but it can't help you make the person you're talking to feel valued, you know. Right.
The human element is what AI is missing.
Yes, at least at this point. Who knows?
Somewhere down the road, it might get better at it, but it's very clear that it's much more likely that you will become irrelevant if you just focus on your technical skills when, in fact, in the future, your job is probably going to shift towards
I actually had a guest who said that everybody now has information.
Whatever you think you know, everybody knows it. They're just going to go straight to CHPT and they're going to tell them. However, the difference now is going to be how you present the information.
That's going to set you apart from the rest of the pack, which means how do you communicate the idea to your audience?
Yeah. Yeah, it's critical. It's critical.
And you only get one chance, more often than not, when you're having those conversations.
The degree to which you are able to articulate it in a way that is persuasive and speaks to the needs of the audience and the other people in the room, or even if it's one-on-one, if you don't know the other person's needs and you don't speak to
them, a lot of times people speak from what I want, as opposed to focusing on what the other person wants. Again, AI is not going to help you with that either. You have to learn that over time.
By paying attention to these cues we've spoken about. Now, back to self-awareness, I've had guests who've done exercise, especially for their leaders. There'd be a rating or a survey and they rate themselves 80, 90 percent on my leadership.
I think I'm doing great. But then you have the team rating their leader and they get like 50 percent. What is usually the disconnect when it comes to those circumstances?
There's a number of different sources that would help explain that.
One of, I wish I could remember her last name, Tasha. She's a social psychologist, but the research she found is that 95 percent of people think they're self-aware, but only 10 to 15 percent are self-aware, right?
So we go in thinking we are, but we're not. That's one of the big issues. The other one, there was the Lominger Group, or the original guys who put together Lominger Competency Training.
But they found that when people do 360 reviews, and that's when they get feedback from the person themselves on their own performance, from their boss, maybe from their customers, from their peers, from their direct reports, and they all get feedback
and it's an assessment to find out where you're strong and where you're not, they found that the person who's usually the least accurate rater is the person rating themselves. Meaning, if you look at the average scores on a given competency, the
person who rated themselves is usually the furthest away from the average of all the other raters. So we have a lot of work to do in terms of increasing our self-awareness, and the most important thing you could do is constantly be asking for
feedback. You know, every time I give a presentation or do a training, I immediately say, you know, what worked for you? What could I have done to make it stronger?
Because I want to constantly get that feedback so I don't lose touch and start to allow my brain to convince me that I'm doing a great job when in fact I haven't had anyone else confirm that.
Right. Because at the end of the day, it's about how other people experience you, how they experience how you communicate, only then can they come to the conclusion of whether you're a great communicator or not.
Yeah. If you're sitting there right now saying to yourself or anyone in your audience is saying, oh, I'm a pretty good communicator. My question would be is, how do you know that?
Who have you spoken to lately that has told you that specifically? Right?
We all like to believe we're good at it, but going back to the research, if 95 percent of people think they are and only 10 to 15 percent are, we all should be asking a lot more questions to make sure that our self-perception matches the perception
of others. True self-awareness is when you confirm that your own perceptions match the perception of others. Otherwise, you're just guessing or thinking that you're a certain strength or but you may not be.
Do you have any practical habits that we can work on starting today after listening to you?
Yeah, I do this in the book. I provide lists of the most common habits that people have, right? So verbal habits, non-verbal habits, for example, interrupting others, multitasking while someone's talking to you, things like that.
I have a list of probably the top 15 things that I've seen over and over and over, limit people's success in their careers. And so I have those laid out there. And number one is getting people aware of what that issue is.
And I would tell you that for most people, and when I do this in workshops, it's an eye opener for them. I do a demonstration that shows them that they're less effective when they're multitasking than when they're not.
People think that when they're multitasking, they're being more efficient in getting two things done more effectively, when in fact, what they're doing is doing two things at a lower IQ, and they're more likely to make mistakes.
And the outcome, by the way, is also the research is very strong on this, that you're actually damaging your brain if you're doing too much multitasking.
And so anyone listening to this podcast can go out and do a Google search or something on multitasking and brain damage, and the list of articles that talk about the impact.
There's one article, and I want to say it's the University of Sussex, I can't remember, but they talk about how the brain density in the area of your brain that is able to show empathy actually gets reduced when you multitask too much.
And so there's all these studies, but long story short, the reason that it causes, I'll call it brain damage, is that what we do is when we multitask, we keep shifting from one thing to another, and our brain is being trained to be focused for
shorter and shorter periods of time. So eventually what happens is we get to the point where we have a hard time staying focused for a full hour or maybe for a half hour, because we're used to little alerts on our phone or something interrupting us,
and what happens is your brain starts to be trained to stay focused for shorter periods of time. Your eyes are like this too, by the way.
If you look at a screen for only three feet away, and you stay that way all day long, your eyes get trained to that level, and then you start to have eyesight issues.
You know, I've had an optometrist tell me basically, you need to every 20 minutes look away from your screen, look at larger distances and let your eyes adjust, but the brain is the same way with multitasking, and if you are doing too much
multitasking, you are training your brain to not stay focused. And the other downside of that is, if you're multitasking while someone's communicating with you, the message you're sending to them is, you're not important enough for my full attention,
which is really bad. Thank you. You're also limiting your ability to learn. You know, because if you go through a meeting and you were multitasking the whole time, you're not going to retain as much from the meeting or what you were working on.
You're losing opportunities to learn lessons from what's going on because your full focus isn't there.
And we forget 80% of what we learn within a couple of hours of the time that we learn it, unless we're dialed in and we're writing notes and we're capturing all those lessons that we want to apply. There's so many downsides of multitasking.
And the first thing you need to do is work on, how do I improve my ability to stay focused for longer periods of time?
And once you do that, in turning off all of the alerts or anything, I mean, everyone has push alerts to their phones and to their computers, every browser has widgets that just pop open and say, here's the weather, here's the news.
I go in and I remove every widget from my browsers because when I want to look at the news or whether it's going to be when I choose to, I shut off my alerts to my phone too.
Yeah, the notifications.
You know how when you download a new app, and the first thing I shut off is notifications because, like you said, I want to decide when I want to go to the app, if I want to check messages and whatnot, because I find that when your notifications are
on, whatever you're busy with at that moment, as soon as your phone goes ping, your focus is shifted. You're now looking at your phone.
The analogy I like to use is the research by Pavlov and his dogs, right? And he would ring a bell every time he fed the dogs, and then he could just get to the point where he'd ring the bell, and the dogs would start to salivate, right?
Because they knew that the food was coming. We're the same way with our phones. It's like we hear a ping, and it's like, it could be an alert.
We had a director in one company who was in the final interview with his eventual boss. He made it through four or five other interviews with people, and it all went great.
And in that final interview, he was texting someone in the interview process with the guy who was going to be his boss. And finally, there's a CHRO. He basically said, is there some kind of urgent issue?
He's like, oh, no, no, it's just a friend of mine that was pinging on us.
Not during an interview, a friend?
He didn't have the wherewithal. He was so conditioned to just respond to texts. He didn't even have the wherewithal to realize that he just lost his opportunity to get this job.
Because there's no way that leader was going to say, I don't want to put this person in front of my customers. Is he going to start checking his texts while he's talking to them?
Yeah, his focus.
But we don't realize we're doing it. It's automatic.
I hope if one thing comes out of this, everyone on this that's listening to this podcast, they start to notice how many times a day they're looking at their phone, or responding to pings, or whatever it might be, in the middle of working on something
else or being in a conversation with someone else. You'll start to realize, wow, I am doing this a lot and you're hurting your brain in the process and relationships. You're hurting the relationships.
Hurt in relationships which then affects your career and your business. Any last words of wisdom, Michael? Anything I didn't ask you were hoping to share with our listeners today?
No, I'll just tell you that all of these things, because I have so much passion around helping people overcome these things, I think most people would agree that the communication in the world is getting worse and worse, right?
And we're seeing a lot of people that are not role models, so to speak, being the people up in front of the camera.
So the reason I got into this is I want to have an impact on people's ability to just have good, strong, interpersonal communication skills with others, and have a high self-awareness of where they're strong and how to leverage those strengths, and
then where they may be weak and how to minimize those. So the book is written in a way, kind of like a workbook and a book. You know, it has, here's the most common habits, do a self-assessment, get others to assess you.
Then here are the things you can do to overcome those habits, and then here's a daily plan you can do to help make that happen.
You know, when you work on these kind of things, you have to have patience with yourself, because, you know, most of the habits we developed started when we were very young.
And if you've been doing them for decades, it's just not going to go away overnight.
But if you could start to catch yourself, that's the hardest thing, catch yourself doing a habit or doing something that's not effective in the moment that you're doing it and replace it with a better behavior.
That's when you start to really make the progress. And that's really why I wrote the book, to help people know what behaviors to look for and then how to avoid doing them and replace them with more effective behaviors.
Author of Leadership Accelerators, Michael DeLisser. Thank you so much for those words of wisdom. Now, before you go, would you like to share where we can find you on the website and your book as well?
Yes.
So my website is mylastname.com. So it's DeLisser, delisser.com. And if you go to that website, there is a page in there under resources that will give you a direct link to the book.
But the book is available on Amazon, and it's Leadership Accelerators with an S at the end. There's a couple other books that have similar names, but not Leadership Accelerators.
So you can go directly to Amazon and go to my website, thedelisser.com, and I have a number of other resources there. And I regularly post articles on communication and leadership on LinkedIn as well.
So if someone wants to try to connect with me on LinkedIn, it's Michael DeLisser. You could find me on LinkedIn as well.
Michael DeLisser on LinkedIn, delisser.com, and the book Leadership Accelerators. Thank you so much, Michael. We'll put all those details on the show notes.
And most importantly, thank you for reiterating what we only see on the show, Communication and Self-Skills are required for your leadership success.
There's no question. So I hope everyone's paying attention. I also have a YouTube channel that just has short snippets of a lot of the things we talked about in specific ways to improve in them.
So they can visit that as well. It's called deLisser Leadership Consulting YouTube channel. But I'm with you.
I mean, I think what we do is really important for people's career success. And I'd love to do everything I can to help people improve both in work and at home and their relationships at home.
We are so glad that you are here today. Thank you very much. Don't forget to subscribe, liberating and a review on Apple and Spotify.
Stay tuned for more episodes to come.
