Speaking and Communicating Podcast

And I was making a really nice living. But the culture from the top, I felt was so toxic and so bigoted that I said these words, I feel like I'm prostituting myself for this company.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast. I am your host Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now, let's get communicating.

Now, let's get communicating with our guest today, joining us from Missouri. Dr. Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer is a human capital strategist.

She's an author and executive coach with over three decades of executive experience. And she's here to show us how to align talent strategy with business growth. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show.

Hi, Dr. Cynthia.

Hello, Roberta. Thank you so much for having me.

Hello. Welcome. It's my absolute pleasure.

Thank you for being here. What do you mean by aligning talent strategy with business growth?

Yeah. You know, one of the things through my research is that so many companies focus on their business strategy, how they're going to grow the business, how they're going to scale the business, how they're going to manage expenses, etc.

But they don't spend nearly enough time and sometimes anytime on the human capital that is going to help them bring that work to fruition.

And so when I look at both of those things, they really have to be in concert that unless you are in a business that doesn't require human beings at all, which that is not true of most businesses, right?

It's really understanding how do you get the right individuals in the door that are showing up and doing what they're wired to do, what they're best at.

And then amazingly, when you get that part of it right, the financial equation starts to fall into place. But we tend to ignore the people side, which makes perfect sense.

However, let's reverse engineer a little bit. When people are being interviewed and they ask you and they say, Dr. Cynthia, where do you see yourself in five years?

If you join this company, what are your goals? It seems as though they are on the right track and they select people who will fit into that company's vision. But then why do they suddenly lose track of that and not tap into what Dr.

Cynthia said during the interview process?

3:13

Interviewing Talent

Yeah, I think it's two things.

Now, the first thing is even in the interview process, I think we missed the mark.

There's wonderful data and research that looks at how predictive a regular interview, a non-structured interview, you and I sitting and me just asking you about your background and your experience and then making a decision.

The predictive validity of me identifying how successful you're going to be is very, very small. It's about a 0.28, not odds that you would want to gamble with.

And it's those kinds of things that organizations right at the beginning miss opportunities because they're judging you, me, others by arbitrary criteria. For example, how many years of experience you have.

Very small predictive validity of identifying future performance.

And so what I really promote is getting into a structured interview space where you're asking every candidate the same questions and you're looking for the same conceptual match in terms of how they answer.

So that you know from the beginning that you have better odds that the person is going to be a long-term fit. So I think we miss it straight out of the gate.

And then the second thing we do is let's say we're lucky and we get it right, and we choose the right person for the role. Many leaders sort of wipe their hands and say, okay, now go be amazing.

I'm going to go back over here and hire the next person or focus on the bottom line. They focus on the financial results only. Instead of focusing on how do I invest in Roberta and make certain that you are growing to the essence of your potential.

We just sort of leave it to the employee to figure it out from there.

I mean, to be honest, there's not much of a discussion after you've been inducted that goes into, okay, this is how your talent is going to align with what we're doing here. And you've had over three decades of executive experience, Dr. Cynthia.

If you think about it, before, we used to rely on our leaders, our bosses to give us direction. There was no Google. There was no AI.

There was no innovative idea from a junior. You used to just receive instructions. But now that has totally turned upside down.

So why wouldn't you as a leader invest even in somebody who doesn't have much previous experience in the industry? Because they could come up with a brilliant idea.

You're exactly right. You're exactly right. And that is really the entire essence of my book that's coming out, Human Capital Investment Strategy, is we leave money on the table.

We leave opportunity and innovation on the table. Because you're exactly right. I would rather hire somebody with great raw talent and potential and then teach them the skill and knowledge.

But we almost always do that in reverse. We almost always look for the person that has the technical ability, with or without the natural gifts and talents.

And then we sort of leave them to their own devices and turn to whatever the next pressing priority is, instead of leaning in and investing in the individuals that are there.

6:37

Womenʼs Career Progression

The other thing you said that I think is really fascinating is, we have grown up, most of us, the research that we conducted for my first book, Now Near Next, we studied women in particular around the world, around the globe.

Five race ethnicities, four countries, a 25-year age span, multi-industry, 900 years of collective experience, so a really diverse group.

And what we found is that women in particular are conditioned to put our heads down, work hard, and wait to get tapped. So we put all of our agency into the hands of our leader.

And then we go about our day, and we work hard, and we do all the things while we're potentially raising children or taking care of elderly parents or attending to a partner or spouse, thinking that my good work by itself is going to pay off, and

some point somebody is going to tap me. And the reality is that's not how it works. It's not how it works. So we can't live with this notion of putting our agency into the hands of our leader, because leaders aren't thinking about that every day.

They should be, but they're not. So you can't just give away your agency.

Wouldn't we say they also have enough for their plate?

Precisely. Precisely. You are not their top notion every single day.

And here's the caveat, however. Men are wonderful male counterparts. They're looking up and looking forward.

They are conditioned to put their aspirations into the universe, to raise their hand for that next opportunity, to seek out the next promotional option. And we're over here dutifully with our heads down, waiting for somebody to notice.

And so our male counterparts are zipping right past us for good reason. We need to take a page out of their playbook and operate with a lot more intentionality.

When you say that, you remind me, and I've told this story before in previous episodes. So I have a cousin. We graduated high school in 1992 together.

We're the same age. And when he applied for a job, I think it was, and now he lives in the Netherlands. The job was requiring that a candidate have a master's at least.

He has a bachelor's and he applied and got the job. And that's why he's been living in the Netherlands for almost a decade now.

Whereas with us, if I had seen that job post as a woman, I would think, oh my goodness, they want a master's, I should have a Ph.D. to even consider applying for this.

But my cousin went for it and they love him to the point where they even sponsored his girlfriend jointly with his visa just to make sure that we take this guy out of South Africa and bring him here. And he's been there since that day.

But us women, we always have this thing of I have to be overly extra qualified to even consider putting my hand up and saying, should I be considered for this position?

Yes. Yes. We over index on performance, where men over index on potential.

To your exact point, men say, I take four out of 10 boxes. I'm going to apply. I can fake it till I make it.

A woman says, I only take nine out of 10 boxes. I don't know if I should apply. Right?

And so that's why your cousin lands this great job and they go to all of this work to get him there. So often, women are overlooked because of our own limitation in terms of our own thinking, right?

We hold ourselves back rather than taking that chance and using our agency and saying, why not apply? What's the worst thing that could happen?

Just know that's the worst. Yeah.

Yeah. I had a woman I coach recently. She wanted to sign up for one of my master class sessions and she said, oh, I just went to my boss recently because I have asked for another staff member.

I need another person on my team and they approved it. I hate to come back and ask them if they'll pay for me to go through this development program. And I said, well, those are two very different things, right?

Adding a staff member to do the work of the organization is very, very different than you're asking for them to invest in you and your development. But at the end of the day, what's the worst thing that could happen?

And she said, I suppose they could say no. And I said, right. And would that be awful?

That just means, okay, not maybe not now. Interestingly, she asked and they said yes. So there you go.

It was one of those teaching moments. Yeah, it was one of those teaching moments. Like, see what you would have walked away from.

Because you talked yourself out of it without even making the ask.

I've always wondered because we've had this discussion so many times before of why women need more confidence. Is it because we don't see many women leaders as yet?

Is it because when we sit in those bedrooms, if you're a woman, you're probably the only one and so you're afraid to ask?

I've always wondered because I'm not sure if any of us have actually cracked the code and come up with the answer, the real reason as to why we just don't have the confidence that men have in similar situations.

Yeah, I think that's part of it. What you described is when you don't see a lot of role models, when you look up and you don't see a lot of people that perhaps look like you, it does create this, well, what makes me special, right?

If there aren't other women in these upper level positions, then why should I think I have the shot at that? But I think it actually goes deeper than that.

One of the things that came up in a session with a person that I was chatting with recently, gave me sort of this aha moment. And I'm going to generalize a little, but I think there's some real truth to this.

If you think back when we were all in primary school, elementary school, little girls traditionally are taught to raise your hand, to be quiet, to sit still in your seat, right? To be lady-like, to be humble, to be gracious.

That is sort of traditionally really around the world, how many young girls are raised. And so in the school setting, we raise our hand, we sit still, we are generally pretty quiet.

I was a bit of a talker, but for the most part, little girls tend to be dutiful and behave. What are the little boys doing?

The little boys are wiggly, they speak out of turn, they have all of this energy going on, they're throwing things around, what have you. And again, I'm generalizing. But in some ways, we can sort of appreciate that.

And so we graduate out of school or university or whatever our education takes us, with that as sort of the backdrop of how one is supposed to behave. And then you get into an organization or a corporate environment.

These little boys have now become young men, and they've channeled that energy. But they're still vivacious, they're still looking up, they're still comfortable speaking out of turn and participating.

And young women have been conditioned to wait our turn, raise our hand, be polite. And yet the corporate world, the organizational world doesn't work like that.

Now, suddenly, if Roberta is very quiet in a meeting, the assumption is she doesn't have anything to add, or the assumption is she's shy, or the assumption is she's uninterested. She doesn't have big aspirations. All of those things could be false.

They could be more that Roberta is sitting there being quiet, waiting for the appropriate opportunity to speak up. And sometimes we simply miss those opportunities because it doesn't work like that anymore.

Yes, when my first job, even when we used to go to all those meetings, I was pretty quiet and less spoken to. See, that only speak when spoken to.

Yes, that's right.

And the reason we started the show was to say, hey, no matter how brilliant you are, if you don't speak up, nobody will know that Dr. Cynthia is smart or knows what she's talking about.

Yeah, yeah. And people aren't mind-readers. So one of the things I spend a lot of time coaching women and men about is you need to have very good clarity on your aspirational goals.

I believe that you need to start working on your future today. So do your day job with excellence, but know what your next aspirational goal is.

And every day, even if it's seven minutes a day, every day, you're making little progress toward that new aspiration.

But here's the thing, if no one knows that the person listening has this big aspirational goal, then no one is able to help that individual progress along, because people aren't mind readers.

So it's really important that women and men put their aspirations into the universe, that they speak with their leader about, where do you see me in a year or two? Here's where I'd like to be in a year or two.

That they speak to coaches or mentors or sponsors and say, you know, I really would love at some point to achieve this thing. You never know when that person is going to be in a room that you're not in.

And that topic comes up and they say, you know, I have the perfect person for that. Roberta was just telling me that she has an interest in something just like this. If you haven't told them, those opportunities just pass on by.

Because, like you said, people aren't mind readers.

And we're not going to just constantly blame leaders or your coworkers just because you haven't taken charge of your career progression.

We expect way too much from the company.

Yes, we should be the drivers of our careers for sure. Now, how is it, speaking of leaders, how do you make them connect with purpose?

And the reason I asked that is obviously you have the hierarchy of the company, even though you coach them to, you know, connect with their purpose.

If that doesn't align with what the CEO and the board, what the C-suite is saying should be going on, what is the next step?

17:25

Work Purpose Alignment

Unfortunately, that happens more often than we would like, where you might start in a company and feel as though your sense of purpose and mission is very well aligned with the organizations, right?

And so that's the perfect situation.

But to your point, with all the layoffs recently and just everything that's going on through around the world in business, I think people are getting more and more skeptical of is the mission statement on the wall truly how the organization lives

out, right? The mission. And so what I say to the person listening that says, well, when I started here, I thought that there was great alignment with my organization and my sense of purpose. But suddenly I don't feel that way anymore.

I feel like what I believe is the right thing and where I want to focus my energy is really inconsistent or different than where senior leadership, the C-suite is going. I think that that is a knock on the door.

I think that is a calling or a signal that says it may be time for a shift. It may be that that is exactly what you need to realize so that you can begin perhaps moving to a different place, a different organization or starting your journey.

What you don't want is to be living outside your purpose. And so if there's that disconnect, it's palpable. You feel it.

You go home feeling like you are not bringing your beautiful gifts and talents to something that is important to you, bigger than you, part of your non-negotiables. I think it's something you have to listen to.

And I advise folks that quarterly just kind of do a check-in. What is my personal mission? What are my personal values?

What are my personal non-negotiables? And how aligned do I feel that is with the organization or where I'm working? And if there's great alignment, that's a beautiful thing.

If there's not great alignment, that's really an opportunity to say, what kind of pivot do I need to make so that I'm working and serving in a place that feels more aligned?

Yeah, because it can be very tricky. I mean, you hear people who don't even feel like waking up to go to their workplaces. Once they start to realize that this culture, this environment is just not for me.

That's right.

That's right. At the risk of being a little bit dramatic, and I say this in my first book, earlier in my career, I reached a point where for that time, I was at a pretty high level. The job itself, I loved in terms of the types of work.

I had a wonderful team, and I was making a really nice living. But the culture from the top, I felt was so toxic and so bigoted that I said these words, I feel like I'm prostituting myself for this company.

That I felt like I was going in and working and taking a paycheck from an organization who I did not align with the values of what the real things that were happening, right? Not the message on the wall, but-

Yeah, because sometimes that don't correspond with how they act. That's right.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The real practical application of how people were acting.

And I actually said those words. And it was at that moment that I started the confidential job search. I had to come to terms with the fact that the behavior that I was observing and witnessing was counter to my core value system.

Even though I loved many things about my job and the title and the money and all of the things, it felt that it was not worth it. And it was the best thing. It was that knock on the door, that that alarm that said, it's time.

It's time for you to move on.

This is why you emphasize strategy and soul, because, I mean, like you said, you were making a nice living.

And let's be honest, a lot of the time when we apply for jobs, when we seek opportunities, we do want to have literally the highest paycheck they can pay us so that we have a certain lifestyle. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But the fact that you had to let that go, because it did not agree with your soul.

That's right.

The beautiful combination, and it's available, is when you are clear on your own sense of purpose, and you know very clearly your own gifts and talents, and finding an organization and a role that aligns with that purpose and those values, and allows

you to do the things that you were born to do from a hardwired DNA, natural talent perspective. And I know that there's a person listening that says, that seems like a dream. That just doesn't seem like that's possible.

But I will tell you, with work and putting in the focus to get clarity, it's absolutely available. And sometimes, yes, you have to work the job that doesn't make your heart sing to pay the bills while you are building your future, right?

So you may have to work paycheck to paycheck doing work that isn't bringing you joy.

But what you're doing at the same time as you're saying, but my aspiration is this, and every day I'm going to do something, one small thing every day to move myself closer and closer and closer to what that aspiration is.

Not when the kids go off to school, not when they graduate college, not when the spouse or partner gets their dream job.

Today, you start unapologetically guilt free investing in yourself in whatever small dosage every day while you're doing the other things that are temporary.

Your future self will definitely thank you as you keep pouring into your dream every day.

23:22

Empathy and Execution for Leaders

You say leaders need to mind this delicate balance between empathy and execution. What do you mean by that?

At the core of it is this. We are human beings and we are bringing our whole selves into the office place. This idea that, you know, leave your personal matters at home, leave yourself at home, that's not realistic.

We are human beings.

And I will say, and I'll just say this, as we move more and more and more rapidly into an AI, machine learning, technological environment, that empathy, what makes us human, is going to be more and more and more important and of higher and higher and

higher value. So it's this combination of yes, we need to execute, yes, we need to achieve the goals, yes, we need to perform at the very highest level.

And you do that when you combine that with understanding the whole person, that every individual brings to their work environment, different history, different lived experiences, different family circumstances, etc.

And when you can at least empathize with the individuality of each person, I believe that you then perform at a much higher level. And I think sometimes what happens is leaders err on one or other side, right?

They're either this very loving, very compassionate, very soft leader that doesn't want to hold the person accountable because they want to stay in right relationship and all of that, or there's the other extreme, which is, by gosh, get everything

done on time, on budget, this and that. And I don't care what's going on with you anywhere else, this is the priority. And I believe that the magic lies in the in-between.

Yeah, we're not advocating for everybody to come and dump whatever is going on on the leader's desk. No. Yes.

But at the same time, as you said, leaders also need to remember that these are humans, and we're very complex. And yeah, we don't have that whole, now I'm stepping into the office, everything about me is being left in the car park until 5 p.m.

when I go home.

That's right. And you know, our world is so polarized in this day and age, and people live in that as well. I mean, we've just had some pretty major events happen in the United States in the last few weeks.

And by the time this airs, I'm sure sadly there'll be new events that have happened around the world. Hopefully not, right? Hopefully not.

But the reality of that is those things impact people. And correct, I'm not recommending that the person listening comes in and spills all their sadness on their leader's lap.

But if you're particularly impacted by something that's going on in your life, in the world around you, et cetera, it would be really helpful to be able to know that the people that you work with have empathy for that and can give you some grace in

those moments. I'm a breast cancer survivor, so it's been 17 years, so it's been a long time.

I'm on the other side, but I'll never forget going through treatment and the compassion that was shared with me from the top of the organization was so impactful.

And it made me want to work that much harder, get better that much faster, deliver that much better, right?

The fact that they had so much grace and compassion for the time that I needed to be off, whether it be for surgery or for treatments or what have you, or wasn't feeling well, I was bald and I'm wearing little hats, right?

All that I was going through. Hard to leave that in the car park. I was still when I walked in that door, I wanted to go to work and I wanted to be able to use my brain for something other than this diagnosis that I was dealing with.

And so, that was such a beautiful example of giving me both the compassion and the grace, but also allowing me to show up and work and still contribute with excellence and not be dismissed because of my health situation and that.

I think that that's a dramatic example, but I think it's an image that people can relate to.

It is a realistic one and congratulations for being on the other side.

27:53

Loyalty Drives Performance

Because whenever you feel that your leader cares about you as a person, like you said, you want to work more, you want to put on that extra mile.

And it's funny because whenever leaders are sitting alone and they're talking about their teams, they do wish that everybody would put on that extra mile. So that's what it takes.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. It's counterintuitive, I guess, for some people.

I said to a client, a gentleman I'm coaching recently, I said, you need to use less stick and more carrot. You're trying to beat accountability into them. You're trying to threaten and scare tactics to try to get them to deliver.

You know, you get more bees with honey. Let's think about how do you use more of the approach of motivation and pats on the back and accolades. It's just a little foreign to his wiring, so we're working on it.

But I'm positive that he is not only going to see better results. I think he's getting great results right now because people are terrified.

I want him to get great results because people are so fiercely loyal because they know how appreciated they are. That's the kind of loyalty that pays off dividends.

I think his way, and I don't know the gentleman, but I think the terrified ones, it's more of a short-term solution. Whereas, loyalty and trust will have those long-term effects and business growth.

Speaking of people being terrified, I don't know if a lot of people have heard this, but lately, it's been more widespread than, actually, Jeff Bezos, that's what he says.

He says, every morning Amazon employees, he wants them to wake up terrified, which was shocking because a lot of us, I know we admire him for so many different reasons, but because some of the drivers, they say they don't even have a bathroom break.

The supervisors, they to the minute, literally to the second supervision of, when did you do this delivery? And what time was this? And what time was that?

Almost to the point where they don't even remember that these are humans because they have the direction from the top, which is make sure that they wake up terrified.

I have no words. That is awful. That is awful.

And it is a short-term solution, to your point. Life is too short to work in that environment, right? I mean, I want to come home after the end of a day of working.

And if I'm dining with a friend or a family member, etc., I want to talk about the joy of my day. I want to talk about the fact that I met this amazing woman and was on this podcast and we had this really interesting conversation, right?

That's what I want to talk about. Yeah. And I want to be able to celebrate the day.

What I don't want to do is sit at dinner and talk about how I made it through. I made it through another day. I survived.

Life is far too short. Frankly, it's counter to everything from a social psychology perspective. To your point, for a short time, people will act out of fear and you will hold them accountable in such a way.

But the first opportunity that they can do anything else, they're going to jump at it. Versus the person that works so hard because they know the faith you have in them. They know the trust you have in them.

They know that you care about them. And so that delivery that got all mixed up, they're going to work that extra hour to make the company look good because they care about you and the company because they know it's reciprocal.

Versus the person that says, My hour is over. I only am paid till 5 o'clock and it's 5 o'clock and you don't pay me after 5 o'clock, so I'm out of here. Right?

I've seen those games where 459, the person is looking at the zoom screen and it says 5.

They even wait to say goodbye. They close the laptop and they go.

Click it up. Yeah. Watch the clock and they're like already packing up their bag.

Absolutely. That's the downside, Roberta, of working from home is that you're sort of like from one room of the house to the other. You don't really.

Yeah. You just can work all the time.

Yeah. Those are hilarious. They portray at least a realistic circumstance, which is if that's how you treat people, that's how they're going to be as well.

That's exactly right.

Yes.

32:22

Dr. Cynthiaʼs Books

Dr. Cynthia, you're an author. Please give us details of your book and then the upcoming one for 2026.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for asking. So now near next, my first book with co-author Kimberly Rath is available on Amazon and where all wonderful books are sold. It's also an audible and in the download form as well.

It was really based out of looking at what do women in the professional world experience and how do we help them to look up, look forward and move forward in their careers.

That was the research I alluded to earlier about what women are conditioned to put our heads down, work hard and wait to get tapped, and we say, shake you by your shoulders. No, no, no, look up, look forward and start working on your future today.

It's a very practical, easy read or easy listen with action throughout. There's a lot of good questions and prompts and there's a corresponding companion guide if someone was interested in that.

Any women in a professional career from age 25 to 65 and growing, this is, I think, a must read to take back your agency, take control and really identify your next.

My new book that is available in pre-sale right now on Amazon and on my website is Human Capital Investment Strategy. And it really is the flip side of the same coin.

This book is for leaders who are attracting, selecting, employing people within their organization. And it takes a look at everything from how do you use predictive science to get the right person in the role out of the gate?

How do you then evaluate performance in a quantitative and qualitative way to ensure that it's absent some of the bias that naturally comes into performance review process? How do you mitigate risk of your portfolio of people?

How do you diversify your talent portfolio? And how do you invest and motivate? So I use a six-step financial model with This is the Premise.

We manage our financial portfolios, our capital assets, right? Our financial assets with great rigor. Either we're looking at it or we have somebody who's looking at it.

If a fund is not performing, we pull it out. If it's questionable, we put it on the watch list, right? We tend to manage our financial portfolios with a lot of rigor and discipline.

I basically take that same six-step model and apply it to how do you manage, lead, create a high-performing human capital portfolio, which is a win-win.

So it's a win for the person that enters the job because you're getting the right person in the role and it's a win because you're investing in their talent and their potential so that they're able to deliver exponential success and results.

I was helping women but I needed business leaders to understand that they have a responsibility and quite frankly, it's a huge opportunity to remove some of the old non-predictive filters and bring more talent into their companies.

Yes, those ones we talked about at the beginning during the interview.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Those guys.

Right.

Thank you so much. So now Nia, Next is already available on Amazon and other bookstores online and in person. Now, before you go, would you like our audience to reach out to you and where can they find you?

Yes, thank you so much.

So I can be reached on my website, which is my name, www.cynthiabensonmercer.com. So my website is a great place. You can reach me via email at hello at cynthiabensonmercer.com.

And on all of the socials, I'm Dr. Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer.

Dr. Cynthia Bentzen-Mercer. I'm going to put your name, especially in the show notes, because the Bentzen is spelled a little differently than what we're used to.

Spelling is tricky.

Yes, check the show notes for the spelling.

Oh, sure. Thank you so much for being here. You've taught us so much and we are really appreciative of your presence today.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

You're absolutely welcome. Don't forget to subscribe Liberating and a review on Apple and Spotify and stay tuned for more episodes to come.