Speaking and Communicating Podcast

So, these two people from HR came and they said, we did an employee satisfaction survey.

We wanted to talk to you about your team in California.

You're downsizing that team.

Then why do they have the highest employee satisfaction scores in the entire company?

What are you doing that they're so happy?

And so, we started to talk about it, and in retrospect, I took all of the worrying away from them.

Welcome back to The Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

By the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify, and leave us a rating and a review.

Now let's get communicating.

Now let's get communicating with Jim Carlough, who is an author, a speaker, and a business strategist.

We will be having a great discussion on his latest book, The Six Pillars of Effective Leadership, and so much more.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show.

Hi, Jim.

Well, hello Roberta.

I am so happy to be here with you on your show today and to talk to your audience.

And we are very happy that you've joined us.

Thank you so much for being here.

Please introduce yourself to our audience.

You've said my name.

My name is Jim Carlough.

I am an author.

I'm also a chief sales officer of a healthcare digital engagement company.

I have been in healthcare my entire professional career in the United States.

It has taken me to other parts of the world as well, but mostly United States based.

I started in leadership as soon as I got out of college in 1983.

I'm an old man.

And so it's been a long journey, but it's been a very fruitful journey.

And I'm at the point in time in my life and career where I thought it would be nice to give something back to those people that want to become a leader.

And so that's kind of how I started on this pathway.

I know you don't want to give your age away, but the reason I love the fact that you started back in the 80s, you then have this perspective.

You can see that leadership has evolved.

You've experienced literally since you started in leadership anyway.

So you're going to share with us how it has involved the lessons you've learned and obviously what motivated you to finally write the book.

As you said, one of the reasons is that you want to give back.

That's correct.

I guess 25 years ago, I worked for a company that had an internal mentoring program.

And so as leaders, we were asked to pick people who were newer at the organization and take them under our wings and mentor them.

And I liked that experience so much that I started doing it outside of work.

And I didn't charge anybody, but I thought if I could help somebody with their career, I would do that.

And so that kind of followed me from the various jobs that I've had, and I've continued to do that.

And so it's with that experience that I'm able to now translate that into something more concrete to go to a wider audience.

It's been actually a fun journey in the last six months.

The book came out the end of December, so around the holidays, so not much was done over the holidays with it, but it's really picked up over the last couple of months.

And why do you think that is?

Why such a positive response towards the book?

I think the practicality of it, it's not complex theory.

And using some of the words from people that have reviewed the book or have read the book, that it's concise enough that you can follow the book and implement it fairly easily.

The book is less than 200 pages.

There's not a lot of theory in it, so you're not going to get a Ph.D.

from it, but it's a practical ways to apply it.

But the other thing that I did, I wanted to make sure that the book not only resonated with people, but I didn't want them to think that I was an expert.

So each chapter or each pillar, I also reference someone around the world who uses that characteristic in their own leadership style.

So we talk about Jeff Bezos as an example, what characteristics he uses in his leadership and go follow him.

Nelson Mandela is mentioned in my book as well.

There's world leaders and then there's business people that names of people would recognize, but may not know that their leadership style contain one of these characteristics.

Side note as a South African, thanks for mentioning my former president, Nelson Mandela.

Speaking of Jeff Bezos, this is going to be interesting before we get to The Six Pillars.

We've talked about him so much on this show, how he's inspired us, knowing his story.

However, there's been some controversy lately regarding his leadership style.

I don't know if you remember, I think it was Christmas last year when some of the Amazon workers were in strike.

And when they were interviewed, they said that their supervisors don't even give them a bathroom break.

And they monitor at every single second you need to account for in the deliveries you make.

And some of them have to carry empty water bottles, I think.

And Jeff Bezos is quoted to have said, he wants people to wake up scared, afraid of losing their Amazon jobs.

So that's why the supervisors need to have that push.

I think a lot of us were surprised because we always think, if a company is as successful as Amazon, obviously it takes care of its people because that's always the theme around leadership.

Have you heard any of that about him lately?

I've not, but I have heard similar stories, not just about Amazon, but also about working at Google as well.

And it's unfortunate, I'm not trying to defend Jeff, and the characteristic that I refer to with him is really focus.

And it goes with a story about in the early days of Amazon, when they were really only in one office building, and they were having tremendous customer service issues.

And what Jeff did was he said the only way he was going to fix it would be to live it.

So instead of telling the person in charge of customer service, go fix it, he put a desk in the middle of the customer service department, and he reported there for six months.

Wow.

And he observed everything that was going on, and put a plan in place to fix it.

And it was that kind of focal point in that story that I attributed then a leader who uses focus in their leadership style and commented on Jeff Bezos' story in doing that.

I mean, we have to remember, yes, he's a wealthy man.

He started Amazon as a basically online bookseller, and then they started to expand, and then they bought a grocery store in the United States.

And they've even changed the way they package products.

And somebody was just telling me this story.

I just learned this.

If you were to go to a toy store to buy a toy, you typically get it in a very colorful package, and there's all kinds of inserts and plastic things around it.

But if you order that same product from Amazon, you don't get it with all of that.

It comes in a much smaller package with less things to get at the actual goods, because the more things you put in there, the heavier the weight, the more it costs to ship it or to deliver it.

And so, he's changing the world of product packaging at the same time, which I just learned.

Right.

I'm glad that we're covering this, and here's why.

The way that he was at the beginning, which then led to the success of Amazon, that we know today, it makes me wonder, once a founder or a leader has created this amazing business model and it becomes a well-oiled machine, do they then feel that they don't need to be or to develop these leadership qualities that we're going to talk about?

Because the business literally runs itself.

I don't think any business runs itself.

I really don't.

I think without the people, you don't have a business.

There's a lot of talk now about artificial intelligence taking people's jobs away.

That's never going to happen.

Good to know.

Artificial intelligence will help make us work faster or make us make decisions quicker.

But AI today cannot interpret emotions.

AI today cannot replace the verbal communication that needs to happen for businesses to be successful.

It can only give you an outline of what you should do or maybe give you a detailed plan, but people still have to implement that plan.

So when people talk about artificial intelligence changing the world, it is going to change the world and it's going to make us more efficient and more productive, but it's not going to replace people in the grand scale of how they're talking.

You may save some, I don't want to say administrative, but you may save some capacity because you're able to do more with the assistance of artificial intelligence.

But there's not going to be a complete replacement, which is most people's biggest fear.

The Jeff Bezos example again, so that's one of the pillars, focus.

We've discussed that.

So can you take us through the next pillar?

Let's start at the beginning.

We kind of jump to that because that's where we went to.

But so my number one pillar and the non-negotiable pillar is integrity.

And to me, we're at a place and time in the world where we need more integrity and transparency.

There's a lot of unrest and uneasiness in the world today, especially even here in the US.

There's a sense that we're not being told the truth.

And people aren't being, they're lacking integrity when we're dealing with them.

And I'm talking, of course, of our government leaders and our political leaders, and it impacts everybody around the world.

And so I think more than ever, we need integrity.

If you don't have integrity, you're not going to be successful in developing a trusted team, a team that's willing to follow your vision and your passion, a team that, if you show compassion or empathy, will know that it's real and it's true.

And those things are important for people.

And so in your introduction to the show, you talked about communication and the soft skills.

A lot of these pillars are soft skills.

Right.

They're not rocket science, but they're so vitally important to developing a team that's going to stay with you, that's not going to be around Robin like a, you know, a revolving door of people moving in and out.

So my attrition rate has never been in a double digits.

I'm in the very low single digits of voluntary attrition.

And it's because of the way I lead and the transparency that I bring to the table, that the people know how and what to expect from me.

That is so true.

Integrity, I think even in your personal life, integrity plays a key role because you know how they say, trust takes a long time to gain but very quick to lose if something happens to lose the trust.

And if you lose trust, it's over.

It's again going to take very long to gain just like it was at the beginning.

Correct.

It's very hard to regain trust with someone after they've broken that bond or had been trustworthy, lacked the trustworthiness that they needed to have.

It hit me in 1983, the year I graduated college, I also ran for a local political office and I won.

The city administrator asked if I would spend some time with him.

He said, I want you to do me a favor.

And I said, what's that?

And he said, when you lay down to go to sleep at night, before you close your eyes, I want you to ask yourself one question.

And that question is, did I do anything today for my own personal benefit that was at the expense of another individual, a group of individuals or organization?

And if you say no to that, you can rest easily.

But if you say yes, you need to do two things.

First, you need to figure out if you can unwind it and reverse what you did.

And the second thing is, figure out how to never do it again.

I've asked myself that question every night since November in 1983.

That is very powerful.

And when I think of how competitive the workplace is, if everybody were to ask themselves that question on a daily basis like you do, Jim, just in general.

Correct.

There are some bad bosses out there and bad leaders out there.

But if we lead with integrity and transparency, there should never be a question about, am I doing the right thing?

Because you're always doing the right thing, and it becomes second nature.

And then let's move on to the second pillar.

The second and third pillars are compassion and empathy.

Two separate pillars.

I'll try to define them for you.

As a leader, if I'm showing compassion, I should be able to not only show it, but help you solve the problem or the concern or the issue.

With empathy, I can't solve it, but I can guide you and help you or give you ideas.

Let me give you a story about empathy.

And this is in the book as well.

There was a time back in the early 2000 era when one of the teams that I managed was a software development team, an account management team, that worked on a health care claim platform for health care and medical claims.

But it was designed in the early 90s, so it was done in MS DOS, or what people refer to as the old green screen.

Remember those?

The black screen with the green writing.

Correct.

And so we, as a company, had come out with Windows based products.

And so we had a number of clients who were still running this older product, and we were going to migrate them from the old product to the new Windows products, which is totally different programming, totally different platform.

And I had to tell 25 people that their jobs were going away.

But I had another problem.

Those claim systems take 8 to 18 months to implement.

So I had to tell the team that their job would be going away, but it wouldn't be going away today, and I couldn't afford for them to leave.

And I couldn't afford for them to all run out and start finding other jobs, because then it would leave a gap with our ability to service the customers we had.

And I didn't know what to do.

I literally did not know what to do.

I wrestled and wrestled with, how do I deliver this message so that nobody runs out the door?

And so I thought long and hard, and I finally thought, what would I want my boss to tell me?

So I came up with three things.

The first thing I did when I made the announcement was I told them that the shortest amount of time that anyone would potentially be given would be six months.

But most people would probably have eight to 12 months notice as to when the clients they were supporting would be transitioned off of that old product.

The second thing I did was I said, if anyone wants to learn how to software engineer in the languages for these Windows based products, I would provide that training to them during their work day.

Third thing I did was I said to everyone, whether you want to stay within the company or go external, I will personally help you find your next job and ensure that it meets your financial needs for your family.

Those three things.

Here's what happened.

Number one, nobody left before it was time for them to leave.

Number two, came about a year and a half later.

And a year and a half later, while we're in the middle of this process, I get a call from Human Resources and they want to come and visit with me.

I always get nervous when HR wants to come and visit with me.

Everybody does.

So these two people from HR came and they didn't have an empty box for me to fill up with my personal goods, so I thought it couldn't be too bad.

And they sat down and they said, we did an employee satisfaction survey a couple of months ago.

And I said, yeah, we haven't seen the results yet.

And they said, I know we're putting that together, but we wanted to talk to you about your team in California.

My team in California, they said, yes, you're downsizing that team.

And I said, that's correct.

And they said, then why do they have the highest employee satisfaction scores in the entire company?

People who are being let go?

Correct.

And so they said, what are you doing that they're so happy?

And so we started to talk about it.

And in retrospect, I took all of the worrying away from them.

They knew they had time.

They knew I would give them training.

And they knew I would help them find a job.

What else would they have to worry about?

So I took all of the things that I would have been concerned about, if it was me in hearing that message, and basically solved them for them, and gave them a roadmap to see the future.

To this day, I still keep in touch with many of those people.

I still hear from them periodically.

And there's one who every year still sends me Happy Bosses Day email.

People who are being let go, scoring the highest employee satisfaction, unheard of.

I would have never expected it.

But it showed HR that there was another way to handle these things, but not every situation is the same.

If you're working for a company that has financial stress, and they have to cut people, they're going to make those decisions quick.

And there's not going to be a runway of time.

This was the unique situation where we knew we had time, but we knew we had to let them know, in all fairness, that we were not at some point going to support the product that they're working on.

We hoped or intended that most of their customers would migrate to the new technology, which they did.

And many of the people did stay with the company in the new careers and then migrated to other teams.

But there were a few that decided that maybe I'll look on the outside, and that's okay, too.

It is.

That's very commendable, Jim.

I mean, there's so many of these situations, especially today, there's so many changes.

There's always this movement of people being let go from companies.

And if they can handle it as best as they can, especially from your example, I think the anxiety that people feel as soon as they know that there's going to be changes will be much, much reduced.

Correct.

I really reduced all the stress.

And I didn't know that I was doing that.

I just really approached it in the only way that I thought was right, being transparent and being full disclosure, what I would do for them to ensure their safety for them and their families.

Now, let's go to the next pillar.

So we've had integrity, compassion and empathy.

Okay, let's go to the next one.

Stability.

So when I think of stability, I think of someone who does the same thing or the same process every day.

And in the US, the person who I immediately think of is Warren Buffett.

Now, Warren Buffett is retiring.

So I guess my next book, I can't use him in that except what he every does in retirement.

But he bought his first stock when he was 12 years old.

I don't know when he bought his first company, but he has developed a process that has not really ever lost.

He buys depreciated assets, sees the value in them, and gets them growing in the right direction and then sells them.

So anybody who's worked with him for two years or 20 years, knows that process that he follows.

And it's going to be very easy for his successor, who's worked with him for, I think, over two decades, to easily take over and never miss a beat.

Whereas in some organizations, when you see a CEO step down and they hire a new CEO, it doesn't always work out well.

You know, they didn't have that following or that stability or whatever the reasons were that the next CEO couldn't continue on the pathway that they were on.

And maybe they were going down a bad pathway, who knows.

But when I think of Warren Buffett, I don't see any way that Berkshire Hathaway is going to fail with what he's created and established all these years.

He created, again, I'm going to use the words I used earlier, which is a well-oiled machine.

A well-oiled machine.

So if you step into his shoes, you just continue that.

But here's the question.

I don't know if you've heard of VUCA, V-U-C-A, that we live in a time of volatility, ambiguity, complexity, uncertain.

We live in a VUCA environment.

There's just too many moving pieces.

Everything is changing.

There are industries where like Bexshire Hathaway, where you can have that sort of stability.

But when you think of tech and all the changes that are just rapid, how should leaders be able to create stability in this VUCA environment, in this volatile, uncertain, ambiguous, and complex environment?

I didn't say leadership was easy.

It takes a lot of work.

And I think we started at the very beginning of the show talking about how leadership has evolved.

And leaders have to be prepared for evolving their culture, evolving their organization, and be flexible enough to understand when whatever processes they built needs to be adapted because of the way the world has changed.

And that's no different than how humans should be treating each other.

When I look back at my first management job compared to how I lead today, I once said on a podcast, I think I need to call those very first people and apologize.

I was a horrible leader.

I mean, back in the early 80s, it was still somewhat authoritarian, where leaders would say, hey, Roberta, here's what you need to do today.

And these are the five things I expect by the end of the day.

The world doesn't work that way today.

But Jim, when those the times, it was the same here.

I started my job in the mid 90s.

And here's the thing I always say, during those times, your boss had to tell you what to do, how to do it because they've had more experience, they've been in the company longer.

Now, the reason we even talk about these attributes is because we have the internet.

You can have a 22-year-old having a brilliant, innovative idea and telling the 55-year-old leader.

So, things have changed now.

I think it was just the times mostly.

I would assume that mostly those were just working with the knowledge they had at the time.

I think they were working with the knowledge they had at the time.

I don't think they intended to be that way.

I think that that is just the way that they were taught that they should behave or how they should do their job.

Today, if I'm going to be told how to make a widget, that's one thing.

But if I'm able to help create the way to make that widget, I'm going to probably be more valuable to the organization and more thoughtful in terms of understanding the components of that widget and whether or not there's a better way to do that.

And if that better way would have a better outcome, whether it be lower cost or better product.

So today, leading with collaboration is a lot more beneficial than leading in an authoritarian manner.

Right.

If that makes sense.

It does.

Handsome Singh, I think leaders of that era deserve a bit of grace from us because that was the environment, that's the best that they knew.

The fact that we are talking about these topics and we say leadership is evolving and is more people-centered is because of the times that we live in now.

It is, but I think these six characteristics are timeless.

That no matter what evolves, these six pillars will still survive.

If they don't, we're going to be in a sad place.

Hopefully not.

Let's talk about the next one of disability.

The last one that we have of the six is humor.

Now before you say that doesn't fit, let me explain.

When I say you need humor and leadership, that does not mean you become a stand up comedian at the water cooler.

Not at all.

I use humor to kick off a meeting, to humanize myself, and also if I want to change the topic or direction of the way a conversation is going, especially if it's with a group of people.

So it can be used quite effectively to lead an organization.

Let's face it, we live in a very hypersensitive world today.

You can't just walk down the street and tell anybody a joke.

You just can't do that.

You don't know how they're going to react.

So my humor is usually deprecating and talking about something stupid and funny that I did inadvertently, right?

Falling off the ladder or something, whatever it is.

And I do a lot of stupid, funny things.

And so I have a lot of things that I could bring up in story tell about in a time of my life where I did something or whatever.

But using that brings a human side of you to people around you.

There's a young lady who works with us, and we were on a conference call together, and the other people had gotten off the call, and we just started talking.

And she was talking about how she wanted to further develop herself.

And I said, well, I can help you.

Her first response was, well, I can't ask for you to do that.

Why not?

And she said, because you're like way up here.

And I said, are we not talking?

I mean, I may have a position that's up here, but I'm offering you to help you grow and develop.

And she was just so scared.

And I don't know if she was more scared of me or scared of what she could learn.

I think it made her a little bit uncomfortable, but not in a negative way.

Quick question, Jim.

Sorry about that story.

How old was she?

Because I'm wondering whether is it somebody from our generation who, like I said, you are up here?

Because sometimes we still have that mentality, whereas the new generation, not likely.

It was a younger individual.

Oh, that's interesting.

Okay.

Anyway, I said, look, if you can't find someone to help mentor you, my door is always open.

So she'll make the decision herself.

And speaking of leaders or CEOs, in one of your previous interviews, you shared a story about a CEO who would park on a different spot, use the freight elevator to avoid even saying hello to their team.

That takes a lot of energy to avoid people to that extent.

What was that about?

Somebody asked me the question, when does leadership start for you each day?

And they said, does it start when you sit down at your desk?

And I said, no.

It starts when my feet hit the floor and I get out of bed in the morning.

Because leadership is a 24-7 job.

Not that you have to be working 24-7, but any interaction you have is a reflection of your leadership, or is a reflection of you.

And you can't behave one way in public and another way behind your office desk.

And so we started having this conversation.

We talk about bad leaders.

There's also leaders who, every couple of years, the company that they're running, they'll change all of the people that report directly to them, and slowly move them in and out in shuffling chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

The Titanic is still going to sink.

It's just a matter of time.

And so the story that you heard, to me, every interaction with an employee, whether they work with me, for me, or in the same organization, deserves the same respect and opportunity to communicate and to smile.

So if I'm walking into the office building, I'm talking to people I'm walking with.

You know, how's your day?

Did your day start off okay today?

Got here to work safely?

You know, have you had your coffee today?

Anything to engage.

And so I was telling a story about this one company I worked for, where the CEO would park on the side of the building and take the freight elevator up to their office to avoid interacting with people.

That's not me.

I mean, these people are part of us.

And you want to be with them.

Now, if it was an isolated one time thing, I would understand it, but I think it was a regular behavior that they did.

In fact, but I also encourage my teams to make sure that they know everybody.

I worked at a company once where on this floor, there were a couple of departments, not all my departments.

And I noticed that no one ever talked to the lady who took the garbage out and cleaned the kitchen.

Her name was Kathy, and I talked to her all the time.

And when I talked to her, I'd always get a smile.

So one day I was sitting there and I was like, today I'm going to teach everybody a little story.

So I sent out an email to everybody on the floor, worked underneath my organization.

And I said, the first person who can tell me the name of the woman who cleans our kitchen and takes out our trash twice a day, I will give you a $25 Starbucks card.

Sent that email and I walked outside my office and started walking the floor and watching.

Unfortunately, the only thing I forgot to do was tell Kathy and Kathy's manager what I was doing.

The next thing you know, people are jumping up out of their cubicles and all walking around trying to find Kathy.

And they finally cornered her.

None of them knew her name?

None of them knew her name.

They did after that day.

And do you know if something else happened?

The employees took better care of the kitchen.

Because now they see her, they know her name, they see the human in her.

And she's part of the team.

She's part of the team.

For somebody in your audience to try that.

I mean, I'm sure there are people who, to this day, are oblivious to the people that are actually doing something around them that helps them, that they should be able to say thank you to them.

Yes.

It's sort of when you're eating lunch with some teammates, and, you know, if I get up to take my trash out to the garbage can, I'll offer to take somebody else's.

But again, we shouldn't expect people to have to clean up after ourselves, right?

We should be accountable to do that ourselves.

Everybody is a team member.

And also, I remember my first job, I'll say again, in the mid-90s.

I graduated with a degree in transportation.

But if I'm supposed to make photocopies, even though the company had hired someone in the copy room to take care of that, it doesn't mean that I must just wait for them because it's their job description to make copies for me, you know, things like that.

I think sometimes we get so bogged down with, it's their job, they get paid for it.

And like I said, just remember that, I'm not saying people shouldn't do their jobs, but we're all in one team and we should see each other as teammates.

The last thing I wanted to talk about, you worked for Perot Systems, is that as in Ross Perot, the former presidential candidate?

Yes.

My dad loved that guy.

He was an amazing man.

He was probably one of the best leaders I've ever worked for, and he took care of his employees.

He would do whatever he could to ensure their safety and their well-being.

If we had an employee who was extremely ill and in the hospital, or their spouse, or their child, he made sure that we got them the best medical care possible, regardless of cost.

You don't find that in the world today.

No.

To do it back then, because I remember the reason I say my dad loved him, was it President Bill Clinton?

Who was the Republican candidate at the time?

Clinton and George Bush, George Bush Senior.

Then Ross Perot was the independent.

Correct.

He split the Republican vote.

So that President Clinton could win, right?

When the election results were announced, so we're here in South Africa.

And Ross Perot was dancing with his wife at the, I think they have that presidential ball or something.

So he's dancing with his wife.

And when he walks up the door, he goes, so my dad remembers the story.

He loves him.

Yep.

I could tell you a lot of stories.

He was a really good guy.

Yeah.

Again, taking care of his people.

Any last words of wisdom, Jim?

I know that we really delve deep into The Six Pillars of Effective Leadership.

But I think that a lot of leaders, when they listen, they think, I have so much on my plate.

Do I even have time to develop these attributes, to take care of people, to ask how they're doing the same way that Jim was sharing today?

What would you say to them?

I'd say, you absolutely, you don't have to implement everything on day one, but we should always be learning and trying to better ourselves as leaders or even as people.

So to me, I would say, yes, if you think that you could be a better leader, you absolutely should.

And I would take the book and read the book and then think, which one of these pillars do I need to implement first?

And take them in small pieces.

When I first got the idea of writing the book, I wasn't thinking six.

I started making a list of all of the characteristics that I thought were important.

And I had like 15 to 18 items on the list.

And I went, I can't write a book about 18 items and expect people to implement it.

So I said, I've got to focus on six core things that are absolutely critical.

And as I narrowed that list down, it ended up being with six.

And we're truly grateful that you have published this book for us.

Words of Wisdom from Jim Carlough, the author, speaker and business strategist from Texas.

His latest book is The Six Pillars of Effective Leadership Roadmap to Success.

Thank you so much, Jim, for being here.

Before you go, would you like to share with our listeners where they can find you online?

Sure.

It's very easy and I'm sure it'll be in the show notes.

My website is www.jimcarlowallconnected.com.

You can order the book from the website.

The book's also available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and some worldwide outlets.

But if you can't find it somewhere, just come to my website and I can make sure you get a copy.

Thank you so much, jimcarlow.com.

I'll definitely put that in the show notes.

Thank you, Jim, for being here today and for teaching us so much about the leadership attributes we need to develop in ourselves.

Well, thank you for having me.

This has been a true pleasure.

A delight for me as well.

Don't forget to subscribe, liberating, and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come.