Languages, Accents and Perceptions w/ Perdita Andrews
Welcome back to the speaking and communicating podcast. If you are interested in improving your communication skills, this is the podcast for you. My name is Roberta and I'm your host today. I am joined by Perdita Andrews, a professional speaking coach currently based in France. Hi, Perdita. Hi, Roberta.
I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm really looking forward to this conversation as well. So what made a Canadian end up in France? Still somewhat of a mystery. I didn't actually have a plan. I, you know, Audrey Hepburn has a famous quote.
that says Paris is always a good idea. Oh, I like that. I had never been to Paris before, and I was living in Canada, and I found myself with nothing really tying me down. And I had the really, really good fortune to have gone to a French immersion school as a child. So I started learning French from the age of five. The other good fortune is that both of my parents are European, so I had a European passport. So I spoke the language, I had a passport. I had never been here.
now when and I just picked up and I didn't know a single person. I didn't have a job lined up. I just came here on an adventure and it's been almost 10 years and I'm still here. So it really is always a good idea. So you are a professional speaking coach. How did you get started on that? I never set out to be a professional speaking coach. I fell backwards into it. Like so many expats, I know that you know this just as well as I do. When I first moved to France, I started teaching
job as soon as I could, working at Berlitz as an English teacher. Also as offices in South Korea. Yeah, I really connected with my students and they started asking me if I would give private sessions to their friends and to their families. And so I started just giving private sessions and the more that I started working, the more I developed my style, which became a very conversational way of speaking. I'm not trained as an English teacher. So there were moments when my students had grammar questions that eluded
I can't immediately explain to you the difference between as and like. I just know, right? Even for us who grew up in English, there are just some things when I was teaching, I just know we're saved like that. That's right. I would look it up and I would be able to answer their questions, but over time I really started to figure out who I was as a teacher and then...
who I was becoming as a coach. And I would start to tell new clients, listen, if you're looking for somebody that's really scholarly, really academic, I am not your girl. My sessions are to help you feel more comfortable, more fluid, to be more adept in a spontaneous conversation and to raise your vocabulary. But it was never gonna be, today we're working on the present perfect. I realized really quickly that wasn't who I was.
people responded to that, my practice grew. And then I started to hear people talking about how they were expected, especially in some of the bigger companies, to be able to present in English because that was the only common language, let's say in Europe. So they had a decent English level, but they weren't getting any support in terms of stage fright, effective presenting skills, communicating the ideas that they had in their.
head in French in the same way in English so that they would have the impact they were hoping for. And so
I very organically developed a second service, which is the professional speaking coaching. So I do conversation coaching for people who want to maintain and expand their vocabulary. And then I also do professional speaking coaching, which is more event-based or project-based. They're pitching investors, for example. So we have so many things in common, right? We're experts. Right. It's almost like you're reading my mind. And imagine if English speakers themselves have to be trained on presentation skills, stage fright.
already speak the language. So it's a double whammy when you first have to translate. A hundred percent. I mean, again, I feel like this conversation might just be you and I reading each other's minds. Because when I describe it in French, the work that I do, I say exactly that. I say it's already extremely stressful for upwards of 80% of the population to speak in public. But when you add that extra layer of having to do it in a language that's not your own.
it becomes doubly terrifying, exactly what you said. And the other thing that is really important to me in the work that I do is that I've actually lived this experience myself, because I've had to present myself and my work in a language that's not my native language either. And I've had to wrestle with this is what my message is, and this is what my heart wants to say, and this is what lights me up. Is it translating? Am I using the correct words in French
behind what I'm doing, not just the functionality of what I'm doing, but the ethos and the idea behind it. And because I've also lived that experience, my clients already feel that they are in a safe space. The relatability. To express their frustration. Yeah. And to express their fears. And I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on this. When you're in that...
kind of a vulnerable setting with a consultant or a coach who is of your same language, but maybe they have a higher proficiency. Let's say that they're also a native French person, but the client believes they have a higher proficiency in English than they do. They're not gonna feel safe. My impression of it is they feel intimidated. They feel they have to show that they are capable of speaking English. But when it's a foreigner who's had the same experience as they've had, it's just the inverse.
they feel safer. They feel like they can really work on their true mindset issues and their true fears in a way that is more effective, ultimately. What we find in our experience is the judgment becomes such a huge obstacle. People feeling judged makes them fearful. Even things they already know, they are not even able to articulate because as soon as they feel judged, everything just shuts down.
And one of the reasons why, despite how brilliant they are, they are not able to show that. I love how you describe that. And it makes me think of judgment as the gateway for self-doubt. That's what it is. That's exactly what you said. They start questioning their expertise and that's something else that you touched on that's really important is that I am certain you've also seen this in your work. It's amazing when you see someone speaking about their expertise in their native language, they can still be stressed out. And I'm not suggesting that it's...
disappears, say they're talking about it in a really casual environment, maybe with you, or maybe with me, right? In session, they're just talking about their work, their ambitions, their successes, and you hear the way they talk about it in their body language. And then all of a sudden, when you change the language, it's almost like it's a different person. Yeah, and I think it's fascinating that language can have that much of an effect.
Because here's the thing, as soon as you start speaking another language, you start to think to yourself at the self-doubt creeps in and I think, am I using the right word for this context? The same word, the context might be different as soon as you translate. One word in English can be used in different settings. And as soon as you use it in different language, you doubt, second guess yourself and think.
Is this the right context for what I'm trying to express? Yeah, and then it goes one step further. At least I see this in my clients. What I see happens after that is once the self-doubt creeps in, then they start to ask themselves, do I even have anything to say? Is it even worth it? Then maybe I should just, we spoke about this briefly just a little bit earlier. Then they're not raising their hand. Then they're not sharing their ideas. They're not sharing their expertise all of a sudden. And that's what breaks my heart is when you watch that process and you think, but you have such important,
important information to share. It's impactful. It matters. And you see people's self-confidence just break down. Yes. And language for me should not be that kind of a barrier. Like there are so many problems in the world that don't have solutions that we can control. But the work that you and I do, that's a problem with a solution. Those people can share their ideas, their expertise. They can make change and make impact. It can be very transformative. I've seen it.
And also it matters. I mean, imagine all the things we can learn from all these fascinating people. So we are the ones missing out just because they feel judged, the self-doubt creeps in, then they suddenly shut everything down we could have learned from them. That's exactly right. And what a pity, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah. I remember some of my students will say, brilliant students. Roberta teacher, my English is not very good. The first thing I'd say, you just spoke at perfect English centers. I feel like you might be my twin on the other side of the world.
the world because the stories that I often tell is the very first time that I meet a client, we have a conversation because if we're not a match, then it's never going to work. So the first time we just meet and we just talk. I have my standard questions that I always ask because I need to do a needs evaluation. I need to do, test a little bit their level, their comfort zone. And one of the questions I often ask is how many languages do you speak? For example, they'll say, well, I speak French, of course, and Spanish and German and a little bit of Italian.
I look at them and I say, Anne, and they look at me with this like quizzical look on their face.
They say, what about English? And they say, oh, but I don't really speak. And I say to them, we just had an hour long, spontaneous conversation in English. You speak English, but it's this perception. Like you said, it's the judgment. It's this perception that they have. And I have to mirror back to them and say, you just spoke English. Same as your story. I mean, that's why I think we're twins on the other side of the globe. And they truly don't think they speak English. And I'm sitting there going, but.
Why do you think of all languages? This is the one language where people judge themselves so harshly, and it's held to such a high standard that unless I speak it perfectly, I shouldn't even count it as a language I speak. Roberta, that's such a good question. And it's the first time anyone's ever asked me that question. Part of the answer is how ubiquitous the English pop culture is. Music, movies, Hollywood, stardom, celebrity. And I also think that also this idea of iconic
When you think of iconic centers, most of them are English. Not all of them, but probably 60 to 70% of them. Right. So I think that there's a connection to the two of them, like the society and...
what we grow up with in pop culture. But then I also think there is something connected to success and money, talking about the financial centers of the world. To be culturally successful and or financially successful, people feel that they must speak English. It's not a theory that I necessarily agree with, but it's what's coming into my mind when you ask that really, really, really important question is why is the pressure so much?
heavier than any other language. I would agree with you on that. And one of the reasons is Amzulu by heritage. So speak two languages fluently, even Trevor Noah. I don't know if you know Trevor Noah. Of course. Yes. Funny. He makes it about the French people. There's a joke where he says because of accents as well. Remember you have English, the language of any of accents. Unfortunately in South Africa, not only are you judged based on you, or you come from Africa, then they're going to judge your accent, even back home. We actually do.
the way you pronounce, then people perceive you as not as smart. He makes a joke about the word management. Some people back home would say management. That's the accent. So when you say management in pronouncing the word, people think, oh, he's not very smart. And then he said, but here's the unfair part. If you are French,
and you're in a business meeting and say, oh, my name is Jean-Pierre. I was just looking at the management and the management of the company. Everybody will be like, oh, take me now, Jean-Pierre, take me now. It sounds romantic. Because this French accent is perceived a different way from an African accent. But they both say, management.
we judge accents as well. Absolutely. I grew up on the Atlantic Ocean in Canada and there is a accent that comes from that part of the world. And instead of saying about, they say about. I heard that in a movie. I thought it was just a joke. No, it's true. Like instead of saying, what did you do yesterday? Oh, we just went out and about. They would say, we went out and about. Okay.
And I think that your point about accents too is so fascinating because I think there are over 200 different English dialects and the judgment and also the self judgment that comes. I often hear my clients when I ask them what are their objectives is to get rid of their accent. Wow. My dad is British and he lived in Canada for maybe 45 years and he never lost his British accent.
I guess what you might look at as a double standard. He was never judged for living in another country with an accent. He never.
tried to lose his accent because he wasn't judged. And also because of the history, of course, it gives you the King's English. But what I think is so interesting is, why is that different from a French person who is obsessed about losing their accent? If you're speaking correctly and you're communicating your ideas, why is the accent important? But I think it's to your point, because historically, I personally find it confounding, though I know it's true, it's exactly what you said. People judge other people on their accent.
about who they are and what their education is and what their intelligence is purely based on their accent. Why was that different from my dad in Canada than it is for a French person in New York City? But then that's a whole other- Discussion, but not for sure. That's true. It just saddens me when you see their first priorities to get rid of their accent.
And can I tell you an irony? It goes back to the story about when they say they don't speak English and we've just spoken English. They then say to me that they love my accent when I speak French and they find it adorable and charming. And I say to them, well, do you think I sound stupid when I speak French or unintelligent? And they say, oh my gosh, no.
Not at all. It's the same, the other side of the coin. It is. This is why I'm really fascinated about the fact that we do the same kind of work in different cultures. And I'd love to hear more about what it's like here. I can tell you 100% that it's systemic in France and it starts in the French education system, which unfortunately is not very supportive, accepting, encouraging. It's rigorous to the point of children. If you think of this as my clients when they were children in school, perfectionism was the goal. And my ethos
my work is communication, not perfection. But all the people that I work with, perfectionism was the goal in this very, very rigorous education system. In South Korea, first of all, in South Korea in general, and I love South Korean culture, perfection is a thing, not just how you speak, how you present yourself, always look your best, which is something we encourage, obviously, but there's just that little extra pressure of always looking your best all the time. In how you look, like I said, you just
in English because they think there's something in there if I continue this conversation that's going to go wrong.
and I don't want it to get to that point. So I'd rather tell the teacher now that this English conversation is not gonna happen. That's the other perfection part. This just reminds me of an exercise I was doing with my students. You know the group BTS, right? I was showing them when BTS won the Grammy, they performed at the Grammys and they had that Ellen interview. RM, Rap Monster, he is the one that speaks English and he translates for the rest of the group. When they asked him how he got to learn English, he said, usually in Korea,
either.
go to what they call private academies. Oh, you just learn English in different ways. He didn't go to academy. What his parents did was they bought him all 10 seasons of Friends. Just watch his friends DVDs until he started speaking English. So what happened was I'm showing my students this. So before I did this, I said to them, why do we think we learn English? Because one of the things I always emphasize is English is not more important than Korean. If you want to explore opportunities outside of South Korea someday in your adult life,
interest to you most likely speak English. That's all that is. Yes, teacher. I would ask them, why do you think you learned English? One of my favorite answers, famous student, she said, teacher, I want to marry Justin Bieber. Okay. That's true. She can't marry Justin Bieber. He's already a married guy. And then I showed them those three BTS YouTube videos. And then I said to them, it's one of the ways in which you can use English to your advantage. How.
ever. You can still go through life living in South Korea, having a fabulous life, everything you need without needing to be proficient in English just because your teacher was here at some point. It's not about that. The reason they counted the Italian, the German, the Spanish and the French and count English, it's almost like on a different pedestal compared to other languages. It's almost like the benchmark and then everything else is secondary. So true. And I appreciate you saying that so much because I personally don't want to
in a world where there's only one language spoken? I mean, is that where we're headed? No, it makes me think of that mindset tool where it's not either or, but it's yes and. It's not either Korean or English. You have to choose. It's yes and. Exactly. I think there's something really beautiful about people who are interested in learning English, not to lose their heritage or their culture completely, just to enrich their life, whatever that means to them.
whether it just means going to the cinema and watching an original version film and not having to read the subtitles or whether that means building an app and launching it worldwide and the words that you said were perfect which is inferior or superior it i don't see it in that way and i see it as enriching and i see it as connected to your values and your hopes and your dreams whatever those are
Yeah, so why should it be either or? And everything else must take a back seat. Yeah, and why? And there's nothing to say that any other language is somehow less important. And again, I am not bilingual. I am fluent. I have lived here for long enough that I should be, but I'm not bilingual and I still struggle. And for anybody who is familiar with French, French grammar is no joke. It is...
really, really hard, but I continue to pursue it because it enriches my life, enriches my brain. It helps me communicate more fluently with my daughter, who is luckily enough, she's naturally bilingual. It helps me to communicate with her in both languages. I think it's not about English being superior. It is about enriching our lives. In Canada, we talk a lot about the Indigenous languages disappearing, and I find that hard.
heartbreakingly sad because there's nobody to carry them on. There's nobody to teach them. And I do not want to live in a world where English becomes the only language. I think. Yeah, I can't think of anything more depressing. This has been such an enriching experience and more than anything, we have so much in common. It's scary. I love it.
I love it. I've never met somebody with whom I've had so much in common with. And the fact that you're on the other side of the world just makes me feel like the world is such a big and small place all at the same time. All at the same time, right? Before you go, do you have a website or social media handle? Yeah, I do. Yeah, you can.
pretty much find me anywhere at Perdita Andrews. So my website is PerditaAndrews.com, LinkedIn, Instagram, Perdita Andrews. And I do also have a little cheat sheet guide on my website. It's called my core four principles for successful speaking. If anybody is interested, one of my core four principles is accept your accent.
Yes. That's right. Because you'll never lose it. So just love it, accept it and love it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Perdita. It's been wonderful having you here. I feel like I found my twin. I know. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. It was been really, really, really lovely talking to you.
