Speaking and Communicating Podcast

And when you stop doing it, and you're just like, this is me, I'm not doing anything particular today.

I'm not outrageous in any way, but I'm fully myself, and I'm just owning who I am.

And this is really all I'm asking of people, and of leaders.

You know, if they want something from their organization, be honest about why.

What do you care about?

What lights you up?

Let people into that, and then let people tell you what they care about, and synergize it to build something really beautiful.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify, and leave us a rating and a review.

Now let's get communicating.

Now let's get communicating with Kim Bolourtchi.

She joins us from Missouri.

She is a keynote speaker, a strategist and creator of strategic unruliness, who helps bold leaders break the rules and build what's next.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show.

Hi, Kim.

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

I'm very excited about this conversation with you, Roberta.

I'm absolutely thrilled as well.

It's my pleasure.

Welcome to the show.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

I'm Kim Bolourtchi.

As you said, I live in St.

Louis.

I also live in Miami.

I am an interesting combination of careers, if I'm going to define myself that way.

I'm a lawyer by trade.

I'm also a professional Latin dancer, professor of communication, written books, and have just had a very diverse career that really took off when I stopped separating myself into parts.

My best work came when I started bringing all that I am to my work.

And today, I advise executives, leaders, founders, to really build the business of their dreams and not just feel fulfilled, but to make a lot of money.

That's interesting.

You say that when you brought all the parts of you, and that's when you created your best work, because I think we fall under the trap of, I'm supposed to wake up in the morning, put on a certain persona that I think corporate will require of me to be.

And then when I go home, I can be myself.

Yes.

You know, it makes sense that we think that because that's really what we're taught.

And it's reinforced by the systems that were brought up into.

Success looks a certain way, act a certain way, and you get where you want to go.

The problem is that the rules that tell us how to be don't know your genius.

They don't know your gifts.

And so by trying to be something that we're not, we're actually making ourselves smaller than we really are.

We're missing out on the opportunity to bring all of our talent.

And so we're actually putting time and energy into kind of playing small to try to fit in when in fact that makes us feel bad.

And so there's a lot of these people walking around trying to do the right thing, feeling like something is missing.

Something is just not all the way there.

I know there's more, but I don't know what it is.

And that's kind of what happens when we follow that.

But wouldn't we be perceived as unprofessional or not displaying proper corporate etiquette?

The thing is, that's why it's called strategic unruliness.

It's not just rebellion.

So there's a difference between show up just any way that you want to show up in your pajamas.

I'm not a proponent of that.

That's not the point.

It's more just feeling like you can bring the full breath of your gifts and talents to your work.

And what most people do is they look at a position and they say, what does this position require or who do I need to be?

Or how do I have to act in order to be perceived as as professional?

And this is true still in a lot of environments, but the reality is that when people bring everything they have to their job, their sparkle, like I'm a dancer.

I'm also a lawyer, so I have this very strategic brain that, you know, solves problems, but have a very creative side.

If I'm suppressing my creativity, I'm not solving problems as well as I could.

I'm slower, right?

And so it's integrating all of who you are and not spending a ton of energy trying to be less than you are that allows people to both feel fulfilled and do their best work.

You know, when you take those psychometric tests, they check your personality.

I don't know if it's the company trying to understand you better other than just your degrees and all your academic achievements.

But what happens then after you get the job?

Because I don't think anybody even goes back to that and says, hey, during the interview process, we found that you have this gift or you are creative in this aspect.

But then we just zone you in into this one cubicle and expect you to just be this one thing.

What happens to those things?

Because it seems like something could grow from that, and then they suddenly discard it when you start the job.

100 percent.

And this is why I work with leaders, because it has to start at the top.

And so in a lot of ways, if leadership isn't looking and saying, we want to maximize the potential and capacity of our people, and they are putting people in a cubicle and saying, just do the thing I gave you to do and stay in your lane.

I hear this a lot, stay in your lane.

Don't do anything outside what we told you to do.

It's very difficult for people to feel fulfilled at work.

And the truth is, they're never going to in that specific place.

So being able to find a job, a role, an opportunity that gives you the capacity to bring a little bit more is where that fulfillment lies.

And I think the mistake people make is feeling like that doesn't exist when in fact it really does.

And the world is changing and it's starting to exist more and more and more.

And leaders are starting to realize that if they want capacity, they need to invite more of it from their people.

It's not going to come from the outside.

Right.

Cultivate it internally instead of constantly bringing consultants and saying, hey, it seems as though we lack in this area.

Just fill that gap for two months and then go away.

Yeah.

Or asking people to work harder, right?

Because it's unreasonable.

You know, we just need people to work harder, do more.

They're not going to get the result.

You're just burning people out.

You know, a lot of what I teach, it's a very new way of thinking, and it's going to take a minute.

A lot of people look at that and they're like, oh, you know, strategic unruliness.

You want us to break the rules?

What?

They would way rather continue to just put people in boxes and burn them out.

And when they burn out, try to get more people.

But those are the organizations that aren't going to make it long term, and they're not going to grow.

The ones that are and the people that are are the ones who are going, you know what, I'm going to bring all that I have as a leader, and I'm going to invite that in my people.

And there are companies doing that beautifully.

Patagonia is a great example.

There are many.

It's a matter of inviting that and just paying attention to it.

If you feel suppressed and like you're not able to bring all of who you are, finding little ways to do it anyway.

In all of the careers you could have chosen for someone who is strategically unruly and breaks the rules, you went into law, which seems like they literally invent rules.

It's such an axumara that this is the one place where it's all about rules and the law.

You're so right.

And it's so interesting, right?

Because I spent so much of my early life trying to follow the rules.

One of the reasons why I know that it doesn't work is because I did everything.

I graduated at the top of my law school class.

I literally spent my life asking, what do I have to do next?

How am I the best?

How do I elevate?

How do I get myself promoted?

I did all those things and it worked, right?

So I found myself being the person they would go to when they needed something.

I was the person that broke the ceiling for other people.

And I was so unbelievably unfulfilled.

I kept thinking something is wrong with me.

I have all the things I'm supposed to want.

I've done all the things I'm supposed to do.

I've done everything they told me to do.

And I don't feel genuinely happy inside.

Like, something feels like it's missing.

What I've discovered in my work is that so many people feel that way.

They followed all the rules.

And they still don't feel like they're living the life they really wanted to live because they're doing it on other people's terms.

That's a really hard realization.

A lot of people just shove it back down.

They're like, I don't feel so great, but that's okay.

My life is actually really good.

I'm fine.

But when you feel that feeling, it's a call to more.

It's a call that there is something more for you.

And listening to that, at least being able to see it for what it is, gives you the opportunity to say, where am I maybe not doing something I really want to do?

I firmly believe if you feel something, it's yours for a reason.

That is so true.

Somebody used the phrase, if it's in your heart, it's because that's really your path or something like that.

And yet so many people want to tell us how to get where we need to go and what success looks like, which I'm not knocking it.

If people are listening and they're so happy in their lives and they've done it the way someone else told them to do it, fantastic.

But this is more if you have that feeling of, I've done all the things, I'm trying to follow the rules, I'm trying to do everything I've been told to do, and I still don't feel like this is it.

Your life is so precious.

And so it's like, well, pay attention then.

What is it?

And don't shut that down.

At least look at it and don't look away.

Yes, at least look at it because that's where that fulfillment eventually will come from.

Now, you were in law, and then you became a professional dancer.

How did those two worlds merge?

So I actually have been dancing since I was a little girl.

It's been my absolute passion and something I've always done kind of to escape, and I think probably have that creative outlet while I was doing this very serious strategic work.

But even when I was practicing law, I was competing.

I was a national champion.

And I would go on the weekends and compete throughout the country.

And I didn't tell anyone in my professional world that I did that.

They saw the very buttoned up, very professional, very serious, very fierce Kim.

And then on the weekends, I would go and I would have my sequins and my crystals and my fishnets and my high heels and my makeup.

I mean, you wouldn't even recognize the two Kims.

They were very, very different.

I kept them separate on purpose because I believed, according to the rules, there's no way I could be respected as a lawyer, like representing all these clients and also be a dancer that danced like that, right?

I mean, Latin dancing is really passionate and sexy.

And they're not going to think, you know, I can do this work if they see that or know that about me.

And I had an argument.

I was before the Missouri Supreme Court and my husband is my law partner and was at the time.

And he went to introduce me to the court.

There's all the justices sitting there.

And I think I'm in really good hands because he, you know, he knows me.

He also knows my secret.

He gets up and introduces me not only as a really great lawyer, but as a nationally acclaimed Latin dancer.

And in that moment, my worlds just went.

And so I'm thinking like this is over.

It's done.

And I'm so upset.

I actually wanted to kill him, but I was in a courthouse, so I couldn't.

And I ran to the bathroom after the argument, and I'm standing there kind of like looking at myself in the sink, like, like how you picture in a movie, right, when the character is just like falling apart.

And I'm thinking my life is over.

And one of the Supreme Court justices comes in, and she's like, Oh, my God, you're in here.

I am dying to talk to you.

Tell me about your dancing.

Is this the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life?

How do you do it?

What do you do?

Where do I take lessons?

And so in that moment, I just like I had this feeling and this absolute recognition of, holy crap, your whole life, you've been thinking these things can't live together.

And it's just not true.

It's just not true.

The very judges you thought will judge you for that are the ones wanting to know more about the dance thing.

That is just insane.

And it just kind of broke open all of these beliefs, right, about who I had to be, because I was trying so hard to be that person, and I did it really well, but I wasn't being all of myself.

And it wasn't that after that, I started showing up in high heels or crystals or, you know, at all.

But I just stopped feeling like I had to compartmentalize my life.

And I was just like, yeah, I dance and I do this.

And I'd say, I dance and they'd be like, are you a stripper?

What kind of dance do you do?

And I was like, oh, my God, come on.

Right?

A lot of dumb questions.

And yet I just got more and more comfortable just standing in my power and being like, I'm a competitive Latin dancer.

I compete.

I also do this.

This is who I am.

And the people who are my people freaking love that about me.

I love that.

The people who are your people.

So even in the organization as well, the people who are your people, you don't just talk about the law, but especially if it's been the weekend and they know you've been to a championship competition, you've got something to talk about on Monday.

Well, and it's also this, right?

Like not everyone is going to love us, and not everyone is going to work with us, and that's okay.

And I think we spend a lot of time trying to be palatable and acceptable to everyone.

We want everyone to love us, and we want everyone to like us.

And so we're contorting ourselves into what version do I need to be for you?

What version do I need to be for them?

What version do I need to be over there?

And in doing that, we're never fully who we are.

And so we're leaving our biggest gifts on the table, right?

We're not showing up with all that we have.

And I think when I made up my mind, I just, that was so tiring.

It's very exhausting, and we do not talk about this.

When we talk about burnout, we talk about overworking and doing all these things.

We don't talk about the energy we're spending, just not being who we are, because it takes a lot of energy to figure out what you're editing out.

And when you stop doing it, and you're just like, this is me.

I'm not doing anything particular today.

I'm not outrageous in any way, but I'm fully myself, and I'm just owning who I am.

And this is really all I'm asking of people and of leaders.

You know, if they want something from their organization, be honest about why.

Like, what do you care about?

What lights you up?

Let people into that, and then let people tell you what they care about, and synergize it to build something really beautiful.

And we are literally missing that constantly.

Yes, especially leaders, because if you think about it, so the perception we were talking about earlier of, I need to be a certain way, because we are under the impression that if I present myself this way, I'm more likely to get promoted and tap into all the opportunities that the organization has to offer.

Whereas if you're in leadership, you feel that there's more of a threat.

If you were to reveal a different side to your life, and you've gone so far, why would you risk that?

Yes.

Yes, very much so.

And there's a vulnerability there, right?

Which is I got myself here by doing all of these things.

And if I do it differently now, or I open up, or I dare to dream bigger, I could lose everything that I've built.

And what happens is people get stuck in a version of their dream that isn't as big as it could be because of that fear.

And it's not just, I don't want to show up as I am, but it's even just denying that there's a bigger dream, because what they built is okay.

And so it's that, what do you really want?

And having the courage to see it and then be like, okay, maybe nobody else has ever done it before.

Well, guess what?

That's how innovation happens.

If you're waiting for 50 other people have done it, now I can do it, you're not on the cutting edge of the thing that was meant for you.

So it's being able to see what you really want and having the courage to know your unique blend of gifts and talents positions you to do that and trust it, take a step toward it.

That's a really big deal for leaders because there's a lot of pressure to just walk the line, hold the status quo.

Because as you said, the line got you there.

So when you were angry with your husband for revealing your secret, what's the anger from, I've worked so hard to get to this point, and if this gets known by the judges, it's all going to fall apart, and whatever happens now, I'm going to have to start from the beginning.

Yes, very much so.

I was so upset and so afraid that this whole persona that I had built just came crumbling down.

I worked really hard to be seen as fierce.

I was the person that people would go to when they needed something really hard done.

And I was so proud of that.

But there was no softness to me.

And I'm actually a mushball.

Like I am fun and funny.

I definitely believe you're a mushball.

Right?

But like you wouldn't have known that.

If you saw me in corridor in my work back then, I was so strong.

Like I wanted to prove so badly that I deserved to be there and that I deserved to be trusted.

And I thought that the way I had to do that was just by being unbelievably buttoned up and powerful all the time.

And so when he did that, I was like, oh my gosh.

Well, now they're going to know that's not true.

Right?

Like now they're going to know that I'm a totally different person.

And of course, he, God love him, he was so clueless.

He's just so proud.

Right?

Like he thinks the whole thing is so great.

He couldn't understand what I was so worried about.

Of course, he knew that it was all fine.

I just didn't.

You know, it's an important thing to think about is that sometimes the things we're most afraid of aren't really things at all.

We've just thought them over and over and over.

And we've made them into a belief that is so big that we feel like there's no way we could do something different, when in fact, we just do something different and we're still here.

And it all works out.

And it does work out because we built this monster in our heads.

Efren O'Mean does the, she calls it the bear theorem, that if you're camping and then you hear the sound of a bear coming, right?

The first thing you want to do is run away.

However, she says, just stand there, go up, make a bear sound yourself.

The bear starts to wonder, what is she trusting?

What has she got?

Why is she not running away?

And it starts to retreat a little bit.

What if you run, it's going to chase you and it knows it's got you.

Right.

I love that.

Face the most ahead of.

Now, let's talk about radical clarity.

So if you have these two, let's call them personas for now, but you have these two lives where you think, incorporate, I must present myself this way, but this is what really lights me up.

So how do you become clear so that you then step into what you are teaching us today, which is fully embrace what you are and bring that into your work?

So I'm going to be really honest.

This is actually the hardest part.

Once you get clear and you can see and know what it is that you really want, it's hard to break the rules and go through all those things.

But actually seeing what you want, I think is the hardest part because we're sort of taught to not see it.

Our brain wants to shut down dreams as too big or not for me or not allowed.

And so I think that the very first thing people have to pay attention to, I call it this feeling of un-something because it's different for everyone.

And so it's this feeling that you get sometimes where you're doing all the things.

And then in your quiet moments, you have this thought or this feeling that's like, there's more.

This isn't it.

I just feel uncomfortable, like, I feel squirmy in my skin or I just feel unfulfilled.

I feel unhappy.

Like, there's that un, it's a feeling of un-something that is in your body.

And when you feel that, what we're taught to do is to push it away and tell us all the reasons why we're actually okay.

Like, yeah, that's nothing, right?

Because that is the signal that you need to get clear about what you really want, that there's more.

When you pay attention to that and you ask it some questions, right?

Of like, okay, what is it that I really actually want for myself that I'm too scared to say or to see or to do?

What is it that I've thought of a hundred times when I'm falling asleep or when I'm sitting quietly by myself, this idea, this dream that has come and come and come and come that I'm like, it's too big.

It's not for people like me.

It's too late in my life.

I can't do that.

I can't have that, right?

What are the things that you keep telling yourself aren't available?

That thing you really, really need to pay attention to because it's the clarity around like, what is the thing you keep pushing away that is usually the thing you really, really want?

And you have lots of reasons why you can't have it, or it's not meant for you, or you can't do it yet, or whatever, because you've built a life.

But that clarity, you at least need to see it, because you can do one or two things.

You can be like, oh my gosh, actually, that is the thing I really want, and I need to go do it.

Or you can look at it and say, yeah, that is what I really, really want, and I'm going to choose not to do it and to stay where I am anyway.

Like people always have a choice.

You don't have to do it.

This isn't like, oh my gosh, well, if you see it, you have to blow up your life and go do the thing.

But being really honest about what you actually want keeps you from chasing what you don't.

And that part, it can be really, really hard.

And so paying attention to not just what it is you want, but all the limits that keep coming up, those are the rules.

Those are the invisible rules and the invisible limits that are keeping us from doing the things we really, really want to do.

I can't do it.

It's too late.

I don't have enough education.

I don't really know.

Like everybody has some stuff, right?

It could even be from when you were little, you were told things that have become just rules you live by.

And so it's a combination of getting clear about the thing you're really feeling pulled toward and also all the reasons that you keep telling yourself it's not for you.

And that gives you the ability to then question those rules.

That's a very great strategy.

And I say that because the other day I was watching a YouTube video and it's one of those exercises where you know write down top five things you want right now.

And I realized that I'm more a I know what I don't want that exercise would have been much easier.

Like I know what I need to go away from my life right now.

But to say write down what you want.

And when I thought about the things that I want, it's almost like they sounded generic to me.

And I wasn't even sure is this what I personally want, or I think I'm expected to for my life to look like it's together.

It's complete.

Yes.

But when it comes to things I don't want out of the top of my head.

But you know what's so great about that?

This is what's so great about that, is that when you look at what you don't want, if you have them in your life, what a great invitation to get them out and create space.

So I'm going to tell you something that just happened.

And people always, when I tell these stories, they're like, you didn't really do that.

And I'm like, yes, I really did that.

So I believe that you have to create space, right?

If you continue doing things you don't want, or you continue accepting things you don't want, you're just going to get more of what you don't want.

It's impossible to have something different.

If you're like, oh, I want something different, but I'm going to keep doing what I've got.

So I'm really, really careful about the clients that I work with to make sure that we're really aligned.

Like that just is something I've learned over time.

You know, just ideologically and make sure we have a goal.

We're moving forward every once in a while.

I will work with someone who just it's not.

I give it everything I have.

I try really hard, but then, you know, I'll realize like this isn't a good fit.

And there's always that moment of like, well, they're paying me, right?

So do I just keep trying?

But if they're not doing their part and it's not working and we're not moving the needle, I like results, right?

So I want to move.

I want it to happen.

I want to help.

And if I'm not helping in adding value, I don't feel good about continuing to be paid for my work.

And so I will let them go, and that will create a gap.

So I would rather sit empty and not have a client paying me, who's wanting to pay me, who's desperate to pay me because it is not aligned, and leave that space for something that will be, then to continue just working in a way that isn't totally what I want.

And my dad throws a fit.

He loves checking on me, right?

Like, how are you doing?

How's it going?

How are things?

And I love telling him because it just makes him so upset.

And he always tells me, it's my ego.

He's like, your ego.

And I'm like, it's not my ego at all.

When you're not just filling that hole up, yeah.

They'll come in and they'll take them.

Or he'll say, are you Rockefeller?

You have so much money, you don't need money.

And I'm like, absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

I want what I want.

And I know where I'm the best value to people is when I'm in my best, in their best, and it's a really, really good connection.

And that's where the magic happens.

And they do what they can do.

And if it's not right, I'd rather sit empty.

The point being, when something is in your life that isn't good for you, and you feel it, and you know it, and you're like, this is not for me.

I don't want this.

Get freaking rid of it.

Just put it down.

Be done.

It's not that complicated, right?

Like, even if it feels complicated, set it down, make space.

Because in the next breath, you've literally said to the universe, I don't want that.

This is what I want.

Bring me this.

And I'm ready for the next thing.

I'm going to show up with all that I have so that I can do the thing I'm really meant to do.

I'm ready.

Let's go.

I've got space for it.

So get rid of all those things on your list.

Yes.

And then you will start to know what you want.

You can't know what you want when you're too busy doing what you don't want all the time.

It's really hard.

What's one dangerous leadership advice, just before we close, where you feel that this has been driven for so long, and yet it's not how leaders are supposed to see this or have this perspective?

This is what has always worked.

That thing that people will tell leaders coming up, people who are coming into an organization, elevating, telling people like, like, hey, this is how we do it, because this is how it works.

This is how it's always worked is incredibly dangerous.

And here's why.

It might have worked before, and it might still work now.

But when you tell somebody we're doing it like this, because it has always worked, it implies it will always continue to work.

And it makes people close their mind to the possibility that maybe today is the day it stops working.

Maybe it actually did stop working a while ago, but they just haven't seen it because everybody's repeating, this is how we do it.

This is how it's done.

This is how it's always been done.

This is how it works.

And so you have all these people who are following sort of a rule of this is how it works, this is how it works, this is how it works.

And they've got blinders on to new ideas, new perspectives, creativity, innovation.

It's dangerous because it's missing capacity, and they're just trying to grind harder to pull something out of something that honestly could be adding no value whatsoever, but they're really attached to it.

And especially in this age of everything just being innovation, creativity, everything is new.

You can't say, oh, it used to, it's been working for the last 20 years.

The last 20 years have changed so drastically.

They're really recognizable.

So yeah, it's certainly not going to work that time.

Kim, you are the host of the Get Unruly show.

What's the difference between being unruly and being rebellious?

I love this question, by the way, because I spent so much of my early life in rebellion.

So rebellion is when you're mad, you're done, you're over it, and you just like, don't care what happens.

You just throw it all away.

You throw it all out there.

You do something drastic because you just feel like it and you want to, and it feels so good in the moment.

Being rebellious feels so good in the moment, but it's not calculated in any way.

It's not strategic in any way.

It's just designed to make you take a stand and feel really, really good.

Being unruly, strategically unruly, I always put strategic in front of it, is it gives you the same power, but it's calculated to be in your own best interest where you're actually looking at what is limiting me, what is holding me back, what are the things people have said I can't do, shouldn't do, won't do, and you're actively choosing to break the parts of that, that don't work for you, because parts of it might, it might actually, parts of the rules might help you.

So it's not just wholesale, throw it all away.

It's figure out what isn't working and break that in a way that is absolutely designed to make you thrive.

You love your life.

You do the things you're really, really meant to do.

And so it gives you the same like, oh, I got this.

This is on my terms, but not in a way that is reckless.

Being responsible while being unruly.

Yes.

But not because someone told you to, but because it's actually what's best for you and it's going to give you the outcome that you want.

Right.

The strategic part.

Absolutely.

Would you like our listeners to reach out to you?

And what's your website?

My website is www.kimbolourtchi.com.

It's just my name.

And I'm also active on LinkedIn, and I really love genuine conversations.

So anyone is welcome to reach out to me there as well.

I will certainly put that on the show notes, especially the spelling of your last name, so that everyone can see.

I know it's tough.

Kim Bolourtchi, thank you so much.

I've had so much fun in this conversation.

You're the first guest in over 300 episodes to actually bring these perspectives to us, so we appreciate that.

Thank you so much.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for having me.

It was a pleasure.

My absolute pleasure as well.

Thank you for joining us on the Speaking and Communicating Podcast once again.

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