Speaking and Communicating Podcast

In helping them to get really clear on what information do they need to make a decision and for them to be able to vent essentially or let out the thoughts that are keeping them up at night, because they don't have the luxury of necessarily being able to share that openly with all the people that surround them at the workplace, because they have to keep up a certain image.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify, and leave us a rating and a review.

Now, let's get communicating.

Now, let's get communicating with our guest for today, Courtney Intersimone, joining us from Manhattan, New York.

She is a C-suite confident, an executive career strategist who helps high-achieving corporate professionals get out of their career rut.

She helps you break through to your next leadership level.

And before I go any further, please welcome her to the show.

Hey, Courtney.

Hey, Roberta.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's really a pleasure to be here with you today.

And it's a pleasure that you've decided to join us.

And welcome.

And please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Sure.

Well, hi, everyone.

So as Roberta said, I'm Courtney Intersimone.

I'm coming to you after more than 25 years, working on Wall Street and both leading large global teams myself, but also advising and coaching executive leaders, really at all levels throughout the organization, because I also headed up our talent management organization for the firm.

So all things learning and development, all things succession planning, all things deciding who gets promoted, who gets the next firm job assignment and why, plus some other things that aren't as immediately relevant to that, like the performance management process that we had at the firm and so on and so forth.

But the long and the short of it is that I've taken all of that experience on the road, as it were, and I started my own consultancy, something that I had dreamed of doing for many years a few years ago.

And now, using everything that I've learned and seen on the inside, I'm able to help up-and-coming leaders and executives maximize their performance and get the advancement, the recognition, make the impact, and get the reward that they know that they're capable of, but maybe they're not understanding exactly how to navigate the waters at those highest levels of leadership.

So 25 years ago, that was the turn of the century.

And a lot of us, when we picture Wall Street, especially back then, it didn't seem to have a lot of female talent.

Am I wrong for thinking that?

No, I don't think you're wrong on thinking that.

You're not wrong.

And we certainly made a lot of strides around advancing women and having greater quantities of women within all aspects of the firm, right?

Like there are some areas that notoriously, you know, like HR, for example, that are known to be bastions of women more likely than men.

It's viewed as pink collar, or it has been.

But having that said, across the time that I've been there, we moved leaps and bounds.

We had, by the time I left, a very diverse, both in terms of gender diversity, as well as ethnic diversity, leadership at the top of the house, and also critically at the board of directors level.

And I saw many women leading businesses, P&Ls, and also serving as CFOs of the enterprise and what have you.

So I think in the early days, when I first started, I might have been a little bit, dare I say, oblivious to it.

And I was working within the HR function, and there were so many women there that I wasn't feeling.

I think if I was working on a trading floor, for instance, which were historically much heavier, leaning towards having men in their workforce than women, I might have felt differently, right?

But I also know from the perspective of playing a leading role in developing talent for the organization, that we made very specific, concerted efforts to bring in, cultivate, and advance female talent for sure.

And then speaking of the HR function, when I think of that culture as well, it seems very cathode, for instance.

Do you find that if you are in that environment, because of that culture, there's more conflict compared to different industries, or it has nothing to do with that as a factor?

Okay, so you're talking about the financial services industry, not specifically human resources.

You brought up human resources in terms of, I had a view of conflict in people, because that's a lot of what we're involved in.

Yeah, because it usually comes to your desk, right?

Yes.

Yes, yes, for sure.

The short answer to that is, I don't know, because I grew up in that industry, and I took the experience of being there as sort of, that became my map of the world in a way.

So I didn't really have a point of comparison.

Within the industry itself, there's a lot of variation of culture across organizations or across subsegments of the industry.

For instance, there are just certain environments that are known to be more cutthroat.

Show me what you did.

Whatever you did from yesterday is great, but now you're starting from ground zero again today, and people will sell each other out and that kind of thing.

There are certain firms that were perhaps more known or reputed to have those environments, and then there are others that are on a relative basis, kinder, gentler nations, as I like to say.

That's good to know.

So I don't think it's ubiquitous across every single organization, and even within a given organization, I note that there are various subcultures depending on what business line you are a part of, what that leadership is like.

I probably got used to and adapted to fairly early, a certain pace, a certain intensity, perhaps you would call that competitive.

But one of the things that kept me at the organization, I was at for as long as I stayed, was my relationships with the people there, and my sense that you couldn't be naive, but when all was said and done, people had each other's back, it was fairly collegial.

But someone may have had an experience in another part of the organization, that was very fraught because of bad people leadership going on or other kinds of petty infighting.

But I see that as less industry driven and more the general experience of human beings.

I mean, I guess the point is individuals.

Yeah, like I've worked with people as clients, maybe it wasn't so much a sense of competition, but they have found themselves extremely unhappy because in their words, they were working in toxic environments, and often the toxicity was caused by poor behavior of peers, a sense of backstabbing, so to speak.

And I'm talking about clients who were in very different industries and financial services, which leads me to believe that a sense of competitiveness or distrust that can emerge between peers or between subordinates and managers, is more a factor of human nature than it is any one particular industry.

And so you're always going to have places where that might come up.

And I think a lot of it is about how you choose to navigate those situations and behaviors and what you're making it, those things mean, and whether you're going to let yourself get pulled into the fray or smartly rise above it.

And that's something that I help guide clients on all the time.

Top of the house leadership may feel like that kind of competition internally yields better outcomes.

But I find that more the exception than the rule.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.

Yes.

It's not unique to the financial industry.

Wherever you may find yourself, you may find yourself a top of the house leader.

Because it's human nature.

Conflict will be conflict.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And by the way, to be clear, I'm not saying that any one person needs to assess whether the context in which they're operating enables them to bring their best and what's within their control to change, or at least not let bother them.

I'm not arguing that people should stay within legitimately toxic environments.

And those do exist.

But what I am saying is there are lots of ways to operate with integrity, follow your values, like being the kind of person you want to be, but not be naive about some of the competition, some of the power plays that might be going on around you, and how to move through those wisely and confidently, and focus on the relationships you have at the organization that are mutually supportive and enjoyable, and not get taken down, if you will, unnecessarily by some of this noise.

You've mentioned relationships twice already.

Why is it so important, especially even now, to cultivate and work on those connections and relationships in the workplace?

You know that line that sometimes gets said about real estate, which is location, location, location.

What I often say is relationships, relationships, relationships.

I mean, fundamentally, getting anything done in life, whether it's in the context of the business world, and you're seeking a commercial outcome, or it's throwing a party for someone, like whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, generally speaking, you're not doing it alone.

You need other people, and it's your relationships with other people that can make or break your ability to get things done.

In a corporate context in particular, it's important to develop and cultivate relationships.

Through those relationships, you, number one, are developing a network of people who you can get information from, and sometimes it's helpful to know to get a pulse on what's going on.

In different parts of the organization, it will help you with your influencing efforts because you have a broader perspective informed by what you learn from folks all over the place.

You're also more likely to have people that you can tap into.

It helps you when you're trying to get something done, solve a problem, you know, whatever.

Oh, let me call my friend in accounts payable.

Like, yes, we have a formal process, but if I have someone over there and I can say, you know, I'm having this real problem, or a vendor over here has been waiting more than 90 days.

Can you help me out?

Can you do me a solid like what's happening?

How can we cut through, you know, some of the mess here?

And if you have a friendly relationship, then that person is more likely to say, yeah, let me try to help you out on this and put you to the head of the line to solve your problem, as opposed to, no, go through this bureaucratic process and sorry, that's just the way it is, right?

And obviously, any great relationship, there needs to be mutuality.

You're doing things to be helpful and supportive to the other person.

It's not like an exact quid pro quo, but it's just the intelligence.

What would you do for a friend?

Like we all try to help each other out.

The other thing is you want to have people, particularly people who are influential at the organization, who are going to speak well of you when you are not in the room.

And this is a very important part of your overall managing your brand in the organization.

When there are conversations happening about who would we see as, we're starting this new business segment over here.

We've got to identify someone to lead it.

And perhaps the leaders at the C-suite, one of them says, well, I think it should be so-and-so.

And so-and-so might be the perfect person for that job.

But if that executive committee members' peers have never heard of so-and-so before, there's no one else to speak on his or her behalf but their manager.

And that's usually not enough to get someone awarded that next position or that promotion.

So I'm giving you a very specific case.

But over time, especially as you're elevating the organization, you need to be known by a broader array of people who may not be in your immediate part of the organization.

But as you're rising, people up here are going to have a say in whether you get tapped or promoted to bigger enterprise level leadership roles.

So if your network is very, very small, your exposure is very, very small.

And this is something you can't just develop overnight.

I mean, that's another reason to be intentional about nurturing and developing relationships that are mutually beneficial with people.

It also serves you well when you're at a crossroads, and perhaps there's a shake up organizationally and there's risk for you to stay in your role.

Maybe a new leader is coming in, they want to put their people on the team, and it's nothing personal, but you're going to be out of a job.

Well, if you've got a broad network within the organization, number one, it might help you tap into opportunities in other parts of the organization, and or help you with identifying leads that turn away that might be right for you.

So again, it's just the more relationships you have, where people appreciate you, see your value, like doing business with you, and vice versa, that's just going to smooth the path for you in a lot of ways, both in the here and now, but also potentially over time and for your overall career growth.

I'm wondering, because you help professionals take their leadership to the next level, when you coach them, is this one of the things that you highlight and do some of them struggle with?

Yes.

Yes, Roberta, you know.

Yes, it is absolutely something that I work with my clients on all the time.

When people come to me, some are stronger naturally in this domain than others.

Most people come to me and they're sort of apologetic almost for, I know, I should have been, not that they don't owe me an apology, but what I'm saying is they're sort of aware of the fact that perhaps they should have been doing more along the path to develop and nurture relationships.

And they didn't because they were too busy or because they feel like, well, I'm just really naturally introverted.

I don't like going to big networking events, whatever their reasons are, right?

And we have some ground to make up in a relatively short period of time, if they're looking to elevate soon, to start activating relationships.

And a lot of what I'm coaching them through is their anxiety around doing it or feeling like it's too late, or feeling like it's going to be awkward, or feeling like they're empty handed and that they're going around asking people for help.

That makes the person feel uncomfortable, because it's like, gee, you never call except when you need something from me.

No one wants to be that person, right?

Which by the way, is another reason why you want to be cultivating these relationships well before you actually really need them.

But what I try to teach people is don't even slap on the word networking because that very term has become so charged for many people.

It's referred in a lot of people or they feel that it's hollow, inauthentic, glad handing.

Transactional as well.

Transactional.

Yes, that's the perfect word, Roberta.

Yeah.

And so a lot of what I'm doing with them at first is kind of reframing for them what we're really talking about here and that it doesn't need to be transactional.

It just means showing interest in other people so that you're not leading with, here's what I need from you.

It's more like, hey, it's been a while we haven't caught up.

We'd love to just, you got 15 minutes for like a phone call, just to chat.

And now you have to really keep it at that.

You can't say that and then get on the phone and say, hey, by the way, can you refer me to A, B, and C?

Not on the same phone call, I'd hope.

Not on the same phone call, right?

But what I try to do is like, look, I just want to get you getting the muscle memory built of making it a standard practice in your weekly life that you're going to at least reach out to someone who you aren't already interacting with day to day, because it's the natural part of your business routine, but reach out to someone who you haven't spoken to a while and just check in with them.

What's going on?

Be interested, be curious, laugh with them.

We could all use a laugh.

We also could all use someone who actually wants to hear more about what's going on for us or have a question like, hey, I'm really curious.

I heard your team was working on such and such.

I'm not quite sure I understand fully what that means.

What does that mean?

And I mean, whatever, but have a basis for having an exchange, a conversation, just human to human, and get your head out of thinking like, what am I going to get from this?

Or what do I have to offer this person?

I mean, sometimes people are feeling so insecure that they're like, well, I don't really know that I can do anything for them.

And it's like, well, hold on.

Again, sometimes just being present and showing genuine interest is all that you need to do.

And creating more of a human-to-human connection, if you will.

Like, we're not just our jobs, but yes, our jobs are a big part of our life.

And as I explained earlier, I'm from a different country.

I find that here compared to where I come from, just chatting to people, it's a little different.

Back home, we just do it naturally.

Complete strangers talk like we've known each other for 10 years.

So even when we need to be in a situation where we network or build those relationships, I find that it's a little easier compared to being here in the US.

And I think just culturally, it's not as common here.

Is that the reason people then struggle when you coach them to say, okay, here's the first step, here's the baby step.

Now go and talk to this person and ask them how they've been doing.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

You're like, that's so obvious.

I find you really empathetic here and see that it's different, but we're social creatures.

We're not islands.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

But here's another angle on what you just said that just occurred to me.

People forget, it's not that they're not naturally friendly humans, but context is everything.

So if they were just like, let's say at their kid's soccer game over the weekend, and they're on the sidelines, and they might start striking up conversation with the people next to them and talk to them, and it's like totally normal.

But when you tell them the term networking, and they're in a business context, suddenly it's like, what is that?

What does that mean?

And it gets kind of blown up in this ambiguous amorphous and disproportionate way to the reality of what it is.

That's why I really don't love using the term, because it just carries this baggage that has kind of grown up around it over time.

It's like, no, I'm just saying, yes, you have to go out of your way a little bit.

You're not going to be just happy to talk to whoever is sitting next to you.

I mean, yes, do that too, but you need to expand beyond your immediate boundaries.

So that takes a little effort.

All you're trying to do is get on the same sideline as them to carry the metaphor over from being at your kids' soccer games.

So you need to proactively reach out and say, hey, it's been a while.

We'd love to chat as opposed to waiting for the accidental meeting.

But then the actual conversation should just be like any other, like you're at a party or whatever.

You're just talking to them.

And the more we can get people off of this idea that networking is like something in some big box and people, right?

Like people either know how to do it and they're good at it or they aren't.

And just make it more like, no, to your point, Roberta, we're social creatures.

Just interact with people and recognize that you do have to make it a practice before it becomes an automatic habit.

So literally put in your calendar, pick one day of the week that you're going to send notes out to people who you haven't spoken to in a while.

Hey, I was thinking of you.

How's it going?

We'd love to catch up.

Like maybe every Friday, you're going to send three notes like that.

Maybe if you've got 15 minutes in the next couple of weeks, we'd love to just chat briefly over the phone.

It's been a while.

No agenda, no nothing.

And if you make that every Friday and then you start scheduling meetings, and again, you want to make it easy on the person that you're reaching out to, because everyone's busy.

People don't necessarily want to commit to a whole lunch or a coffee or whatever.

But like a quick 15-minute phone call, most people can do that.

Make it so it's easy for them to say yes.

You'll probably have fun.

It's a nice break in your day.

It's nice, refreshing, get a different perspective, and then move on.

But if you make it a practice that every week, I'm going to make sure that I have a phone call with at least one person who's outside of my day-to-day world and keep catching up.

And if I do that every week, it just starts to build.

And then it reaches a point where this is just like your natural way of being.

It's not that you even have to think about it.

So yeah, as you can see, I'm passionate about it.

I love that.

Yeah.

Because when you think of it as a task, it becomes this boogeyman, this thing you have to take care of.

Yes.

Exactly.

Another thing is I find that it's really touching when people remember little things you told them.

A quick example, we have a friend of ours here.

I mean, when I first came and I was just talking, because I talk a lot, I was just telling the story, not even realizing that she's listening in the sense that she's even recording it in her mind.

So my name, Roberta, came from the recently passed away Roberta Flax.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

So I was born with a Zulu name, of course.

But when we started school, the apartheid government said everybody must have, they call it a Christian name, English name.

So my mom was listening to this album of Roberta Flax titled Blue Lights in the Basement.

So I'm telling our friend this story.

That's how I got my name to go to school.

So I'm telling my friend this story.

I'm just blabbering.

I'm not even thinking anybody remembers this.

Right.

And then came my birthday.

She gives me this picture frame size thing, and I'm so excited.

I'm like, oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Right.

It's a poster of Blue Lights in the Basement by Roberta Flax.

You know, the vinyls that...

Yes.

I don't remember telling you this.

How did you remember?

I cried.

How did you even remember you?

I don't remember you telling you this story.

Exactly.

Oh, my goodness.

But look at how much, how deeply that touched you, right?

And it's not the material thing.

It's the fact that, wow, that person actually listened, you remembered, and she remembered, and how touching that is.

And so when you think of her, like I can see the tears a bit in your eyes, right?

But you have a warm feeling towards her.

If she reaches out to you, now for something else, you're going to be much more likely to say, of course, let me help you, as opposed to let me try, I'll get back to you in a week.

There's a sense of reciprocity that gets created, but also just a warm feeling of connection, like, okay, this is someone who actually cares about me.

And that's the whole thing.

It's like you really got to be other focus.

Yes.

That does not mean that there's never a place for you to ask for help from someone else.

By the way, a lot of times people want to be able to be helpful, right?

So it's not like asking for help is a bad thing.

But if you can sort of as they say, you know, put money in the bank by first being of service, being helpful, and that service can be something that you maybe take for granted.

Like, you know, that woman might say, what's the big deal that I remembered the story of your name?

Wasn't a big deal.

But yet it was, like, because fundamentally people want to be heard.

People want to be seen.

People want to know that they matter.

I mean, fundamentally.

So if you can give that to someone else, again, without seeming staged or forced or phony about it, but that's E, understand that that is probably the greatest gift that you can give to somebody else and how much we crave that in our life.

Definitely.

It's a gift you give yourself and yourself others for sure.

So you're a C-suite confident.

What does that mean?

What that means is we've all heard it gets lonely at the top, but it does because the more senior you are in terms of leadership role within a traditional hierarchical structure, there are fewer people who are your peers.

And there are many more people who are quote subordinate in the sense of being downstream in the organization, who are looking to you to lead, who are looking to you for certainty.

And you're in a fishbowl, i.e.

so many more people can see you.

So the pressure that you feel to get it right, to be confident, to exude that confidence, and so forth, rises with each sort of rung on the ladder that you climb.

And yet the truth is everybody has moments of doubt, and sometimes it's more than a moment, right?

Uncertainty about I could go path A, I could go path B, maybe I could go path C.

They've got a lot of people that they're never short on advisors, but everyone has an agenda.

When you are someone's confident, you're behind the scenes, you're not in the organization, you have no agenda other than being a thought partner and supporter for this client, this CEO, in helping them to get really clear on what they need, what information do they need to make a decision, and for them to be able to vent essentially, or let out the thoughts that are keeping them up at night.

Because they don't have the luxury of necessarily being able to share that openly with all the people that surround them at the workplace.

Because they have to keep up a certain image, and or because the truth is, getting back to your point about competition, I'm not saying everyone has the knives out for them, but you can't necessarily fully come out and say, I'm really not sure what to do here, because it diminishes your power and your authority, or I'm feeling insecure about blah, blah, blah.

It's like, really?

You're the CEO.

Yeah.

Or there's a lot of different opinions that are being filtered up to you, even from your team, and which one is the actual right facts of the matter.

How do you make that decision?

Not to mention, there may be issues going on in your personal life outside of work that are weighing on you.

So who do you go to to have these persuasions?

You can't even necessarily always go to family members because maybe they're part of the problem, or they're expecting you to show up and lead in a certain way, and or they don't understand the contact that you're operating in within your work life.

Again, being able to serve in that capacity where my only agenda is to help you achieve what you want to achieve, including how you want to show up and be in the world, staying true to the things that are important to you, your values, and you just need a safe place to think out loud where there's no risk because I'm not going to the press, I'm not going to your board of directors, I'm not talking to anyone, and I am that person who can hold all of that for you and then help you work through these issues in an intelligent manner.

I find a lot of leaders are craving that.

I find an honorable position to be in.

Like you said, everybody wants to be understood and that's where you come in, because nobody understands the pressures of their job, what it entails.

What were the qualities that got them to that leadership level?

There's so many things.

Part of it is the willingness and the drive to see something that can be done better or differently, and to actually take action to make it happen.

As opposed to being on the sidelines and complaining about how the way things are, bemoaning this or that, but not really doing anything about it.

So first and foremost, it's how can we as an organization get even better outcomes?

And to be clear, commercial outcomes, right?

I mean, the company exists to make a profit and to generate a great return for investors.

I mean, fundamentally, with minimizing risk and minimizing expense, there's a lot of roles to make that happen.

But you've got to demonstrate a real commercial mindset and keep in mind why we're even doing what we're doing in the first place.

Then you've got to always be connecting the dots, what your area of responsibility, how that fits in to the bigger picture and driving those commercial outcomes.

And then be forward in saying, this is what's working, this would work better.

How do we align the necessary support and stakeholders from different parts of the organization?

So bringing people together is really important.

Having ideas, but also knowing that you don't have to be the only one with ideas, but assembling the people who can help with the ideation.

You've identified a problem, part of solving it is not that you go into a closet and have the answer, but do you assemble the various voices that together, we could come up with what the solution is, and then actually execute and make it happen.

Those are all acts of leadership, right?

Come up with a solution and then aligning resources to actually make it happen, and make it happen as quickly as humanly possible.

I think also a spirit of curiosity and learning and my confidence that you don't have to know all the answers.

It's not about proving to everyone that you know everything.

It's more about an ability to be resourceful, an ability to bring people together, and an ability to inspire followership, and your ability to influence people to come together to do the things that you believe need to get done.

And then a spirit of never giving up.

There are going to be lots of twists and turns.

Sometimes the conditions are favorable to you and what you want to get done, and sometimes they're not, and those conditions come in the form of other people, budget, resource constraints.

It's so funny, people all the time be like, oh, it'd be so much easier if there weren't these constraints.

It's like, no duh.

There are always going to be constraints.

The people who rise the highest take that as a given.

They understand things are not existing to make them successful and to make it easy.

There's always going to be challenges, but you've got to find a way to be resourceful, work through them, make it a team for it, because you cannot possibly get it all done on your own.

Have a point of view and assert it, but also invite in other relevant voices, and then not give up, because there will be times when your career takes a strange turn, or flattens out for a little bit, or the latest thing you rolled out didn't go really well.

If you go hide in embarrassment and shame and think, well, that's it, I guess I'm not cut out for it.

You just have to say, okay, I'm going to own that.

Here's what didn't go well, but here's what I learned, and here's what I'm doing differently the next time.

And keep moving.

And it's also a life lesson.

How many times in our personal lives, in other aspects where we think, oh, I tried it once, never again, it didn't work.

That's not.

Yeah, you got to be resilient.

You got to be resilient, for sure, for sure.

Courtney, any last words of wisdom, anything I haven't asked you, you were hoping to share with our listeners today?

No, I think you really covered it quite well.

There's so many other topics, but there would probably be a whole other episode, which we will come back for.

I'd love to come back, talk about things like executive presence and owning your authority and all of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But this has been great.

I really appreciate having the opportunity to have this conversation.

So thank you again for inviting me on the show.

My absolute pleasure.

It's been great indeed.

And I'm so glad that you were here today.

Before you go, would you like our listeners to reach you and where?

Sure.

They can reach me.

Probably one of the easiest things to do is just connect with me on LinkedIn.

Courtney Intersimone, I'm the only one with that name, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding me.

Hit me up with a direct message.

I'm in there all the time.

Would love to talk to you, connect and answer any questions you might have, or see how I can be helpful to you.

But yeah, that's probably the best first place to go.

And I think I may have given you the link.

You'll send it out with show notes, but I also have a training that I've done that might be of interest to some of your listeners.

That really lays out a big picture.

What are the things that you need to be doing in order to elevate yourself to the next level of leadership and commanding higher compensation.

So yeah, I don't want to mess up the URL.

I believe it's at www.scalingwithoutsacrifice.com.

Free to watch.

There's just a little small registration page, but I'll make sure that you have the link and you can share with your listeners if they're interested.

Thank you, Courtney.

We love free gifts, and we'll be sure to watch.

I'll put the details on the show notes.

I appreciate it.

All right.

Great.

Thank you so much, Roberta.

My absolute pleasure.

That was Courtney Intersimone, the C-suite confident and executive career strategist who helps you take your leadership to the next level.

You take care as well.

Thank you so much.

All right.

Take care.

Bye-bye.

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