Speaking and Communicating Podcast

One thing I learned from a terrible coach was, when things went well, Roberta, the coach would take all the credit.

You know, we did really great because of my pitching decisions, you know, my lineup, my strategy.

But when things went wrong, he blamed the team.

He said, how are we gonna win if my fourth uphitter strikes out, which was, at the time, me, with the bases loaded?

And so, that kind of taught me, it's like, if I ever led a team, or now an organization, I want to be the kind of leader that if things go well, I give that credit to my team.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify, and leave us a rating and a review.

Now, let's get communicating.

Now, let's get communicating with Damon Lembi, who's joining us from the Bay Air in San Francisco.

He is the host of the Learnit All Podcast.

He's the CEO of Learnit, a former voice role player who played in South Korea, where I was based before starting the podcast.

And he is here to give us an athlete's perspective on leadership.

Talking about groundbreaking.

Before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show.

Hi, Damon.

Roberta, thanks for having me.

It's an honor to be here.

My pleasure.

Thank you for being on the show.

Welcome.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

So my name is Damon Lembi, and I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay area where I live now.

And growing up, for me, it was all about playing sports, as you kind of mentioned.

And by the time I was a sophomore in high school, I realized that if I was going to play in college or pro, it was baseball.

So I went all in on baseball.

Turned out pretty well for me.

I was a high school All-American.

And like you mentioned, I got to play in the summertime one time in South Korea.

I got drafted and had a chance to go either minor leagues or college.

And it was one of my first really big leadership lessons.

I went the college route because my coach had this moonshot vision of playing in the College World Series and winning it, even at a small school like Pepperdine.

And so I went to college.

I got hurt.

I left there.

They won the College World Series, which told you, you can win and you can create moonshot dreams.

They can actually happen.

I went over to a different school, Arizona State, played there, did well, was ready to start my professional career.

I didn't get drafted.

And at that point, I had to pivot and get in the business world.

And the short version of that is I've been running Learnit, which is a live learning platform.

We teach soft skills, like you mentioned, which are very, very important.

And I've been doing that for 30 years.

And we have upskilled over 2 million people over that time.

And so here I am today.

Teaching soft skills, that is so interesting for such a long time, because it sounds like it has become a buzzword in the last decade or so.

How did you have the foresight to think this is important?

People need to know about it and upskill themselves.

Well, when we first started, we focused mainly on technical skills, you know, and so that was like Microsoft Office, Excel, PowerPoint.

And how Learnit started was my dad, actually, we were a big real estate company.

And like any great entrepreneur, he wanted to solve his own problem.

You know, he went, took an Excel class somewhere.

This is back in the 90s and he thought it was terrible.

So he came up with this idea for Learnit, where we'd have short classes, 90-minute sessions on learning Excel, PowerPoint, Microsoft Word.

I just started there as a receptionist.

And I would say about 10 years into it is when we cut some of our customers.

I remember vividly Gap was a big customer of ours.

They still are.

And they said, you know, it'd be awesome if you guys also taught communication and time management.

And so that's where we kind of got into the soft skills.

And by the way, Roberta, I hate that word soft skills.

Well, I don't hate it.

That's a huge debate on the show.

I shouldn't say I hate it.

I dislike it because soft, I think that they're critical skills, especially with AI and everything going on.

And so I think that they're very important.

So I like to call them human skills or people skills instead of soft skills.

That is a huge debate.

I've even had guests who will fight me on that term.

Really?

What do they prefer to call them?

In good spirits.

Because like you said, they are literally the hardest to learn.

So what's soft about them?

Because technical skills, you learn in college, you graduate, you know exactly how to do your figures and your numbers and whatever it is.

But dealing with people is more the challenging part.

And being able to communicate whatever your expertise is more challenging than actually doing your job.

I couldn't agree more because it's great to have all this wisdom and knowledge.

But if you can't communicate it and transfer what you've learned or what you know to others, then, you know, it's kind of almost for a loss.

And that reminds me of sitting in classes in college at Arizona State and having professors who would say, hey, you know, you're getting a Harvard level education here.

I did this, this, and this.

But I couldn't really understand what they're saying, or they didn't make you feel comfortable to speak up in class.

You didn't have that psychological safety.

So even like at Learnit, when we're interviewing instructors, I say it's one thing to have the experience and the knowledge.

It's another thing to be able to communicate in a way that people connect and retain and learn from you.

Yes.

Especially, you know, when you have this facilitating workshops or the trainings, we always ask, how do you know that it's stuck, that they will take this and go implement it, that whatever the leadership coaching was, then the team is going to rise to the occasion and be high-performing now that they've had this training.

Let's be honest.

You can't go in and take a two-hour communication class, communication, a class, borders class, and all of a sudden be an expert in communication.

You know, it's a lot more than that.

I think that there's formal training, there's informal training, but I think great companies or organizations set up opportunities for people to actually practice that and have some accountability and share back, hey, I learned this model and here's how I applied it in my day-to-day activities.

I think that's a great way to help make things more sticky and learn because otherwise you'll forget 90% of what you learned in a workshop.

Absolutely.

The practice.

It's like swimming.

I'm not going to learn how to swim by reading a book.

Now, I'm intrigued by what you said about your professors when they say this is a Harvard level education.

I think you know the quote that says the biggest illusion about communication that has taken place?

Yeah.

Was that the scenario of I've given you so much, but you're not checking if the other person has received the communication the way you intended?

Yeah.

I think that situation with me in that class always stuck with me because in order for people to feel comfortable or retain information or learn, really, I think you need to create an environment where people feel comfortable raising their hands and asking questions, you know, and not being made to feel stupid.

So yeah, sure, Harvard's great or whatever, right?

But I just felt like I don't want to raise my hand because I'm intimidated by this person.

And when you're a leader, I think it's your responsibility or anybody, like we were speaking about before.

Communication is so important.

And a lot of times it's not just what you know, it's how you articulate it through stories or through cases that really help people connect with your message.

That's the important part, yes.

As you were saying earlier, everybody has said leadership coaching and empathy and this, but what's going to be different about Damon is that the story that he's going to tell on those topics is what the listeners are going to remember.

Yeah, what I found is to be the important thing.

It's like we can talk about here's a framework for being more transparent.

Here's a framework for coaching, but how do you get it across to somebody where they can actually connect with what you're having to say and then turn around and use it themselves?

That's how you know it's stuck.

Now, let's talk about your time as a baseball player.

Obviously, our reference is from the movies.

When the coaches are shouting, is it motivational for the players, or is it be afraid, and if you don't win, you know what's going to happen?

Well, I think that that is a great question.

I was playing baseball back in the mid-90s.

I played for three Hall of Fame baseball coaches, which was a great experience, which really helped me model my leadership style and learn from them.

And I played from some bad coaches as well.

And you learn just as much, if not more, from bad coaches as you do great coaches.

Now, one of the great coaches that I played for, I keep in touch with them, and he said, do you think that my approach to coaching would work these days?

And I said, absolutely not, because he would scream at us.

He'd get you there and scream at you and say, hey, if you don't get this done, then you're going to be on the bench or you'll be off the team.

Now, different people respond to things different ways.

And for me, it was helpful.

I was grateful for it, but you just can't talk to people that way anymore.

You need to be more, like we spoke about, empathetic or take different approaches.

But back in the mid-90s, that's kind of how coaching went.

And so, I mean, I had one time where he said, look, yeah, if you don't perform, you're going to be on the bench, if you're lucky.

And I went out and hit a home run that day, and my whole season turned around.

So I don't know.

I think that there's some pluses, but as you grow and evolve, and with the different generations in the workforce now, you need to kind of adapt your communication style to what your team would respond to.

I'm glad you made the clarity that it was the era as well, because I think even in the workplace, it was more that style, okay, not maybe the shouting so much, but more that style that collaboration is something that's been in the last few years that has been emphasized on.

So when you looked at their leadership styles 30 years ago, what did you think, I really admire this about this coach?

And you've talked about the one that you thought, uh-uh, we're not going to repeat that.

But what is it that you admired from some of the coaches?

One of the things that I admired is that two of the coaches I played for, they created an environment where the team basically managed ourselves, in a sense where if the coach wasn't around, it was like peer to peer feedback, accountability, we all knew what our goal was.

You know, it was very clear, we wanted to get to the College World Series, we wanted to win this division, whatever it was, and they set up the kind of environment where we didn't need the coach to micromanage us because we kept ourselves accountable as a team.

And that's always something that I've tried to do at Learnit.

And I know Keith Farazi, if you read his new book, Never Lead Alone, talks about, calls it a team shift, where you have this bond with the other people on your team where it's like, hey, I have your back, I don't want to see you fail, so let's work together.

That's one of the things I learned from great coaches.

One thing I learned from a terrible coach was, when things went well, Roberto, the coach would take all the credit, right?

He'd say, you know, I did really great.

You know, we did really great because of my pitching decisions, you know, my lineup, my strategy.

But when things went wrong and didn't go well, he blamed the team.

He said, how are we going to win if my fourth uphitter strikes out, which was at the time me, you know, something like that, with the bases loaded?

And so when you sit in a room like that, that kind of taught me, it's like if I ever led a team or now an organization, I want to be the kind of leader that if things go well, I give that credit to my team, you know, that I go out and I recognize them.

And if things don't go well, as a leader, I want to show my team that I have their back.

And I'll say, hey, this mistake or this is on me, we're going to find out how to make it work.

And I'm going to be accountable for it.

And you have your teams back.

So I think that those are a couple of lessons that I learned.

That scenario, and I've seen it play out in the corporate world, where your boss will take the credit.

But if something goes wrong, they will threaten you with demotion, firing and whatnot.

Has that been when it comes to your leadership coaching?

Have you seen a shift in that?

At least, I mean, you might have one or two cases still pending, but that was a little more common back then, I would hope, than it is now.

I think it's still pretty common, but fortunately for us, most of the companies we engage with, they believe in investing in their people and building trust within their teams.

And so we don't typically work with clients who have that victim mentality.

But I do personally mentor a bunch of individuals who come to me and say, hey, Damon, what do I do about this?

Something didn't go well with this project, and my manager threw me under the bus, in situations like that.

So I think it's still prevalent, but if you want to build a high-performing great team, you got to have the trust of your team members, and you got to have their back.

So I don't think that you can have a great team if you're playing the victim as a leader and you're passing the blame on down to your team.

Certainly not.

Now let's talk about your learning platform, Learnit All.

How did that come about?

So you mentioned your dad and that you were a receptionist in his company when you were doing Microsoft.

So how did it then evolve into what it is today?

So yeah, I mean, so when my baseball career ended, I was 22 years old.

I had a big identity crisis because I was like, I'm a baseball player.

What am I supposed to do?

I don't know if any of my skills are transferable into the business world.

And fortunate enough for me, like I mentioned, my dad started this company called Learnit because he wanted to digitize our portfolio.

And I took a job there, not at one of our real estate companies, but at Learnit as a receptionist for two reasons.

One, like I said, I wasn't sure if my skills were transferable.

And two, I didn't want to be somebody who started high up in an organization because my dad started it, right?

I wanted to roll up my sleeves and show people that I can contribute and work.

So I started off as a receptionist, probably to this day answered more phone calls than anybody else.

You know, kind of swallowed my pride.

I kind of worked my way up over the years from doing sales to teaching classes.

And about five years into it, when the CEO wasn't working out, I threw my hat in the ring and I said, hey, you know, to our board, I said, I've answered the phones, I've closed some of our biggest deals and sales, and I've taught classes.

I think that I would be a good fit for the CEO role because I'm empathetic to what the different departments are doing.

And I always recommend that when you come into an organization, you know, learning the different roles as much as you can so you can connect with your people.

And so they gave me that opportunity.

And I've been CEO now for, I don't know, 20 some odd years.

And we evolved from a technical training company to a, I like to call us like an overall holistic, outsourced learning partner.

So we work with organizations, all B2B, and we help design learning programs that help them achieve the future outcomes they're looking for, or maybe some challenges that they have over time.

And the majority of it is around soft skills, like emotional intelligence, or I want to build stronger communication amongst our teams, especially if, let's say somebody acquires a company, and they want to start using the same acumen and whatever.

And so we come in and design programs that help them achieve those goals.

I'm wondering, so you've helped over 2 million people.

Do all of them come from the US?

Are they global?

That's another great question.

I would say about 80% do.

When I figure in that number, I also include, we have a YouTube channel with over 900,000 subscribers on there with our platform.

And 50% of our subscribers on our YouTube channel are outside of the US.

You know, they're from the United Kingdom, they're from India.

But we do do live virtual training all the time for different organizations all across the world.

Because I'm wondering, with the cultural differences, you know, in some cultures, they openly communicate, they're free.

And in some cultures, they're a little more withdrawn or shy, or don't speak unless spoken to.

Have you seen differences in how they learn from your platform based on that?

I would say that when we do large scale engagements, like with one of the largest social media companies in the world, we did a worldwide project management.

One thing that we did beforehand was we met with their team leads from India, from South America, everywhere, to try to better understand how they like to engage with training.

Because some of the cultures, they don't want to be called on.

You know, and others are okay with it.

So we try to best understand, you know, how to interact with them in a way that would make them feel comfortable, like we go back to on the psychological safety stuff.

So we kind of had a game plan for each of those.

And so, yes, I think that you can't just take the approach that you have in the United States, where a lot of times one of the things we do is we would say, okay, I'm going to ask this question, and I want Roberta, Bob, and Sam to give me answers.

You know, I mean, that might fly in America, but that may not fly in Japan or something.

So to the best that you can do, you want to get yourself familiar with how the cultures best receive training.

And one of our most popular classes is communication across borders.

I don't teach it myself, so I can't give you the specifics, but that is really understanding, you know, if you want to have the most impact when it comes to communication, you know, what are some of the studies show that how you interact best with these different cultures?

Very important, because the world has gone global.

Like you said, there's a lot of virtual meetings.

And as you're explaining, I thought of the word curious.

If you're not curious about people and how they function and how they communicate, you won't get the best out of them if you don't make that preparation first before engaging with them.

When you are that interested in them first, then they are more likely to open up and say, here's my idea, here's what I think.

I wrote a book, too, called The Learn-It-All Leader, and I talk about the five traits that I think that are really important to be a great leader.

And one of the most important ones is curiosity.

As a leader, you have to be curious and interested, curious what other people have to say, curious to learn diverse perspectives, to understand that you don't have all the answers.

And if you really want people to open up to you, they've got to trust you.

And if you want people to trust you back, you've got to start with them being able to trust you.

And curiosity and being humble, being a good listener, I think, is so important.

So I really think that's great you brought that up.

Speaking of being humble, you talk about humility, but while being confident.

I was raised in a religious household.

You know how the scriptures make humility sound like?

Some people think, oh, you're going to be a doormat, and everybody will walk all over you, turn the other cheek.

How do you bring those together?

Because they almost sound like opposites, especially if you have that religious perspective of humility.

I see this.

We do a lot of work with new managers, you know, typically people who maybe either come in from outside of the organization or promoted from an individual contributor to a new manager role.

And they struggle with being humble because they're afraid that if they show any sign of they think maybe weakness vulnerability, that people won't trust in their ability to lead.

What I would share with your listeners out there, and I'm curious to see what you think, is that it is okay to say, I don't have all the answers, right?

We encourage it actually.

Exactly, right?

You encourage it.

And so it's okay to be vulnerable and humble that way.

But now when you tie that to confidence, you need to do it in a way where you're like, I don't have all the answers, but I have this great team around me, and I'm going to tap into my team to get an answer to this question, and we're going to figure it out.

Because if you walk around and you're apologizing all the time, and you're meek about it, you're like, well, I'm sorry, I got this wrong.

I don't really know what I'm going to do.

Your team is going to start to wonder if you have the capability to lead them.

And that's not what you want.

What you want to be able to do is like, hey, look, I don't have all the answers, but I'm going to figure it out.

Give me this time, and we're going to come together as a team, and we're going to figure this one out together.

Yes, we do say one of the leadership myths is you should have all the answers.

That's not the reason you were putting the role in the first place.

And that's what great leaders know, that they don't have all the answers and that they surround themselves with people who have different strengths than they do, and they tap into those individuals and bring them forward to help out in scenarios like that.

Absolutely.

Now, let's talk about self-awareness.

How important it is for leaders to be self-aware, especially when they communicate or do something, how the team receives them.

Are they aware that this is how I come across, or I told them what they need to do, what's the problem?

I think self-awareness is absolutely critical.

I think great leaders are able to look in the mirror or reflect and be honest with themselves.

They're honest to say, hey, you know, maybe I came across as egotistical in this situation, or maybe I could have handled this situation better and differently.

And it comes back again to curiosity.

It comes back to like, how could I do this differently or better next time?

If you're not self-aware, and you don't take a moment to step back and reflect on your own performance, then I think that you're not going to be able to continue to grow and evolve.

And great leaders, especially in this disruptive world we live in, need to continuously grow and evolve, because you don't have all the answers, and you can't be what I like to call a know-it-all.

So self-awareness is absolutely key.

It's better to be, what do you say?

A learn-it-all than a know-it-all.

A learn-it-all, correct.

So tell us about the Learn-it-all podcast.

So Learn-it-all podcast, so when my book came out in April of 2023, kind of got on the podcast circuit.

You know, I was a guest on a bunch of shows talking about my book.

I made a bunch of friends like you and I talked about beforehand, and started my own podcast a year ago.

Love it.

And I recommend to all your listeners out there, maybe start your own podcast.

Not that difficult.

You feel like you're getting an hour or so with these thought leaders, and you get to sit down and listen to them, their stories.

And on the Learn-it-all podcast, I just bring on guests who have had quite a bit of success, but they've also aren't afraid to be vulnerable to share some of the challenges they've had.

It's just a way for people to learn from high performers and learn from some of the mistakes and some of the successes they've had and provide practical advice for people that they can turn around and implement themselves.

And that's why I remember earlier we called it the Mini-MBA.

You know, I was going to steal that one from you, but since that was your term, I stopped there for a second on it, but that's exactly what it is.

You know, you get access to these wonderful leaders, and not just in business, but in all different walks of life, if you want, and you get to have a conversation.

I think it's made me a better communicator, both professionally and personally, because if you want to be good at it, you have to be curious, you have to be a really good listener, and you have to communicate in a way where you connect again, you learn to connect with your guest, who a lot of times you meet for the very first time.

That's very key, and I'm about to share a little bit of an embarrassing story here.

So in my 20s, we were friends with this friend of mine since 8th grade.

In my 20s, I remember I used to talk a lot just all the time.

I'm sitting with my friends, we're having lunch, pizza, what not in South Africa.

And she's the more quiet type.

One time she went, for the first time, it was brought to my attention that I talk too much.

I don't take into consideration the people around me and wonder when last did they have a chance to speak.

And going forward, and I asked myself, why didn't anyone tell me before her name is Dawn?

Before Dawn did, that is not...

But anyway, I appreciated that.

And so over the years, I've had to learn and be aware that I've spoken too much, and now it's time to pull back.

And when I started the podcast, I said to myself, this is the one tool that's going to teach me to actually listen and talk less, and learn to ask questions, let the other person...

It's been good training for me.

They're still a work in progress, but it's been good training in listen more and talk less.

Well, what I like what you said there is how you received the feedback, because you said that you appreciated it from your friend, right?

Yeah, because I mean, I know she loves me.

She wasn't being mean or anything.

We've been friends since we were in earth grade, and I know that she meant, and the fact that there were four of us girls having lunch.

I wondered what the other two have always thought about me talking too much, and they didn't say anything.

But she was kind enough to bring it to my attention, so that going forward, I don't make a fool of myself.

Or maybe irritate people get irritated.

But what I think you're talking about right there is really key for your listeners out there, that if you're a leader, and first of all, to me, we're all leaders, right?

We could be parents, we could be coaches, we could be individual contributors who are stepping up.

So leadership is not a title, and it all starts with self-leadership.

But if you really care about somebody, then you'll get out of your comfort zone, and you'll have those tough conversations with them.

You'll have a tough conversation with them, and you'll share feedback.

I got a little story.

I was recently, I had a fortunate to go on a catamaran cruise, right?

With my friend, who is a captain, who's a sailor in my family and his family.

And we were talking about leadership stuff, and he said on one of his first cruises, he was all friends and family.

And you know, if you happen to work or lead your friends, you know, sometimes that's tough.

He was the captain of this boat.

It was early on in his career.

And one of the passengers, who is a good friend of him, took him aside and said, hey, Lee, we're all friends, but you also have to be the captain of this ship.

You know, we expect you to be the captain of the ship.

So he's like, that was a great learning opportunity for me, as far as how to manage between being a friend and being a leader.

And that is so true.

And I asked him, I said, how did you feel when they first gave you that feedback?

And he said, well, at first, I was taken back a little bit by it, but then I really appreciated it because it's true.

And if people don't feel like that they're comfortable enough to give you that feedback, because you might get defensive, then you're never going to know, and you're never going to learn and grow.

So similar to your situation, my friend's situation was a great learning opportunity for him.

It's so key.

Exactly that, because he then realized, wait a minute, they brought this to my attention, let me do something different going forward.

Why do you think sometimes we struggle with feedback, or how did these two situations enable us to be receptive?

Is it the relationship?

Is it the way it came across, the way they communicated?

They were not mean about it?

How does it work so that it's effective and the person is receptive to it?

Well, if you go to Amazon and look up books on feedback, you'll get 90% of them or more are about giving feedback.

Very few of them are about receiving feedback.

I found that learning how to receive feedback is so critical.

Early on in my career, somebody gave me feedback, whether it was from an employee, a friend, or a coach or mentor, I might get defensive.

And if you get defensive, first of all, you're not hearing what people have to say, really, right?

Because you're always thinking about, how am I going to combat what they're telling me?

And then people will stop giving you feedback.

I think if you learn how to receive feedback in a way that people feel comfortable continuing to give you feedback, that is like fuel for learning.

There's nothing better than being able to receive feedback, being self aware of maybe some changes you can make.

And to answer your original question, why do I think some people struggle with that?

They could be a know-it-all, or maybe they lack self confidence, and they're worried about how they're perceived, or maybe they're inauthentic.

I think that if you're an authentic, genuine person, and people give you feedback, then you don't have to put up some fake shield.

You could just be yourself and learn from it.

And all feedback really is, Roberta, is data.

It's data.

You don't have to implement the changes that everybody gives you all the time.

No, that's not what we're saying at all.

No.

Exactly, right?

It's at least something for you to work with and learn from.

It's more data.

Yeah.

No, we're not saying that, not the discussion of, we're about people's opinions.

That's not what this is about.

Hence, I said, you know, it depends on the relationship as well.

Because if somebody knows you that well, I mean, my friend has never given me feedback in different times as well.

So I knew that that's the one thing I needed to work on, because that's not what she does every day to me whenever we communicate.

You're lucky to have friends like that.

Yes.

That's what I'm saying.

Going forward, how many chances or how many relationships might have suffered along the way just because I wasn't aware that I talked too much and people just stayed away from me, or whatever the case may be.

And that's how you evolve as a leader too.

If you've created the environment where people feel comfortable enough, like the other day, I'll be honest, somebody in our marketing department, I saw a newsletter that went out and I didn't like the title.

I thought it was too generic.

And so I had a conversation with them and I said, hey, look, I think we could have done a better job on this title, and I gave them some advice.

And he came to me the next day and he said, I get a little sensitive around direct feedback like that.

I know you kind of made a joke out of it, but it kind of hurt my feelings.

And I said, well, thank you for sharing that, because that wasn't my attention.

I was proud of him for feeling comfortable enough to come to me and share with me his feedback on my approach to that conversation, so I can learn and do differently next time.

Nobody's perfect.

None of us are perfect.

Instead of holding it in and avoiding you next time to show you the title, because he's like, yes.

And it's good that that communication took place, because the other thing we always raise is, I may think I'm a great communicator, but is that how Damon received me?

Yeah.

And it's less about your perception of yourself.

I mean, at the end of the day, what's the goal with communication?

It's to be able to get your point across where somebody understands what you're having to say, that it's crystal clear and that you're both on the same page.

And so if I feel like I came across in a way that they should understand, but at the end of the day, it didn't connect, then that's on me.

So that's on me on learning how to communicate better or be more transparent with somebody to get my message across.

If you're leading an organization, you're a small business owner or leading a team or a sports coach, if you can't communicate well, you're not going to be a great leader.

You know, I mean, that's one of the most important skills possible when it comes to leadership.

I had a guest who, how did he explain it?

He said, if this is your perceived leadership and your communications, because everything is perception.

So if you are perceived to be a 10 as a leader, but your communication skills are low, they're going to perceive you as a 3 as a leader.

Your leadership might not be the best, but if you communicate well, they think you're the best leader they've ever come across.

You're like, 100%.

Yeah.

And it's their perception.

It's not your perception.

It's their perception of how you're coming across and communicating.

And the other thing I'd add to that, and I'm sure you talk about this on your show all the time, especially around change management or getting a new initiative.

You can't just deliver the message once or twice.

You need to continuously deliver it, the communication.

You need to, and through different channels, maybe through email, maybe through Slack, maybe through one-on-one discussions, team discussions.

So besides just being clear, I think it's the repetitiveness of the communication and the consistency that is really critical to be a strong leader.

To make sure that it's received the way you intended.

Any last words of wisdom, Damon, before I let you go, what would you like to tell our listeners that I haven't asked you yet?

Well, one of the things I always like to say is when it comes to leadership, great leaders aren't born or made, they're constantly in the making.

We've never hit our pinnacle.

There's always something new to learn, whether it's around communication, whether it's around coaching, whether it's around having difficult conversations.

So if you're listening to this podcast, I'm sure you're somebody who wants to continue to learn and grow.

And so just always keep that in mind.

Great leaders are not born or made.

They're in the making.

Because we always ask the old-age question, are they born or made?

So you've changed that paradigm for us today.

Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

And before you go, would you like our listeners to reach out to you?

Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn a lot.

So connect with me at DamonLembi on LinkedIn.

Check out my podcast, the Learn It All Podcast.

If you're curious about what classes we offer at Learn It, you can go to learnit.com.

learnit.com, Damon Lembi on LinkedIn, the Learn It All Podcast.

Thank you so much, Damon, for being here today.

This has been so much fun and very informational.

Thank you.

Thank you, Roberta.

My pleasure.

Thank you for joining us on the Speaking and Communicating Podcast once again.

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We encourage you to continue to get communicating, and let us know how communication skills continue to improve your life professionally and personally.

And stay tuned for more episodes to come.