Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Not because they're then necessarily going to discuss them, but it gives them a pulse.

And I've seen those word clouds.

It can be stress, anxious, happy, excited, curious.

But once you see that word cloud, now you can make a decision about how you want to conduct the rest of the meeting to ensure that you have a greater chance of an outcome.

And it all comes from just pausing and seeing the people versus just seeing the decision or the business meeting that needs to be conducted.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndeila.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.

Now, let's get communicating.

Now, let's get communicating with Morag Barrett, who is the founder of Sky Team.

She is a best-selling author who's on a mission to help workplaces be more connected.

She's an executive coach and leadership expert.

And before I go any further, please welcome her to the show.

Hi, Morag.

Hi, Roberta.

I'm really excited for this conversation.

I'm so glad that you're excited as well, because I am.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Well, I am originally from the UK and spent my first part of my career in finance, so all about the numbers, understanding how to build a professional and profitable organization and team, but recognize that the missing element in many cases was the human element, and so therefore moved into leadership and executive development, which is what brought me to Colorado, and for the last 20 years, I have called the United States my home, and I've had the opportunity to work now with leaders from more than 20 countries, six continents, all who are looking to elevate their own leadership reputation and impact or take their team to that next level.

So I'm looking forward to sharing some of those insights with you, Roberta.

And we are excited that we will be looking forward to that as well.

So you worked with numbers, and you saw that the human element was missing, because that's what we accuse organizations of, that the focus is on the numbers and not the humans who create the numbers.

Well, it's almost like a chicken and egg because you can't have one without the other.

I mean, let's face it, we're in business to make money.

We're in business, in work, to earn a salary so that we can pay our bills.

So the numbers do matter.

But what I saw time and time again is leaders would come to me and say, oh, I've got this fantastic idea, this great new widget or this great new service.

We're all going to be rich.

Look what we're going to do.

And the cash flow forecast would show that, yes, the numbers were going to add up.

But then when they actually tried to execute those plans, that's when things went a little sideways.

And that's where the human element matters, because it doesn't matter what widget or service you're providing.

It's the humans that build it.

It's the humans that deliver it.

It's the humans that consume it.

And so understanding not just what you do and how you organize, you also as leaders and as individuals need to understand who we are as individuals and how we relate.

And what's going to make me choose to purchase your widget or your service over somebody else's.

And that's where my team and I now excel and where my two books focus on the power of creating winning relationships.

Yes, we certainly need the money.

Otherwise, the business would not exist.

But when, like you mentioned, so the three human elements, the ones who create, the ones who take it to the market, and the ones who consume it.

Based on your experience, where have you found that the majority of the focus is lacking in those three elements?

Well, I think you've seen it with some of the other thought leaders that you've had on your podcast.

And when we look out into the world, it's the starting with the why.

So we see a lot of headlines saying, oh, we're getting rid of our bottom 10% the low performers.

Well, let's face it, nobody, nobody gets up in the morning thinking I want to do a bad job or to make a mistake.

And yet, when we first join a company, when we first join a team, think about your first day at work, we're all so excited.

And yet we all know that we have colleagues who are less than excited to be part of the team today.

So that's part of the human element as leaders, as colleagues is how do we fan that flame?

How do we maintain our enthusiasm for the work so that we can do our best work so that we can show up as the best version of ourselves?

And that's the secret to leadership is how do we cultivate those winning relationships where we can all show up and be better together?

And how do leaders influence and encourage those types of relationships?

Because sometimes you find that just generally you get promoted to leadership roles based on the fact that you are very good technically.

And you find some of the leaders saying, I don't want to deal with people.

I just want to do my job.

I accepted the promotion because I love the perks.

And why not get the recognition for being good at your job, which is great.

Yeah, so how do they then incorporate and encourage those connections in the workplace when most cases, they haven't even been coached on the human element, on I'm going to lead people now and focus less on the technical job.

They're going to do it and we're going to do it as a team together instead of me just being the wizard on my desk.

So I think you've hit the nail on the head and it's that first leadership transition that is most critical when we move from being an individual contributor responsible for results through our own efforts to becoming a supervisor or a team leader or a manager, where now our mind shift needs to move from me first to we first because the best results are now with and through others.

But I think what you've identified there is that the common mistake that happens in so many organizations is that those new managers are just thrown in at the deep end.

It's the school of hard knocks.

They're not given the toolkit and the coaching to adjust their approach from the me first to we first.

We all do what of course we've learned to do, what God has promoted in the first place, which is to continue to do it ourselves.

I think that gap just continues to get bigger as we move through our careers, if we don't have the opportunity to listen to a conversation like this and suddenly realize, oh, working harder through my own efforts, that's only going to result in stress and burnout for me.

How do we break the cycle?

It's about letting go of some of the things that God has promoted and starting to value those new skills of coaching, feedback, delegation, that then allow others to also grow and, as we've already shared, get better together.

Then when it comes to the work that you do, how did you then make the transition from, all right, I'm going to leave my finance profession and just focus on coaching?

Well, I reveal the secret in my second book, You, Me, We, Why We All Need a Friend at Work and How to Show Up as One.

It is an experience.

It is the shame I carried for nearly 20 years before telling the story out loud.

The reality is, I had left my career, which at that point was 20 years old and started a new role, and on day five, I got fired.

Even now, as I say, I can feel my stomach clench.

And so I ran out of excuses as to starting my own business.

I remember coming home from that conversation and speaking to my husband at the time and saying, okay, looks like I'm starting my own business.

And we agreed we'd give it a year and see what happened.

And it's now 20 years later, two best-selling books and the opportunity to work with tens of thousands of leaders around the world.

So out of that ugly experience came something, the silver lining.

But the reality is we all face these knocks in our careers.

And that's why you need to invest in your professional relationships early.

Because I know had I not had the network, the relationships, the past colleagues who had seen and experienced what I could do as a leader and as an executive coach, then Sky Team would not have burgeoned and been so successful.

So my one advice here in this moment of the conversation is to be thinking about who in your network have you not spoken to recently.

And just send them a message, say you're listening to this podcast and you've popped into my mind, hope all is well in your world.

And that is a micro deposit into that relationship bank account.

But start investing in your relationships before you need them.

And if you are like me, finding yourself looking for that next opportunity, as I was 20 years ago, then it's never too late.

Start investing in your relationships today.

Yes, all of that is very true and we need to do it.

But at the same time, when you think of the workplace, the way it's designed at least, there's this competition.

As we're talking about the ladder, you want to be seen as better than Morag.

And so how do you then create the relationship while trying to prove to the boss that you're better, because you hopefully are the one who will get the promotion over her.

So yes, I absolutely agree.

There is competition.

And even if we are friends at work, even if we are what I describe as allies, there is still going to be competition, because let's face it, there's only one CEO spot.

There is only limited opportunity to move up the ladder, or time with your boss, or limited budget to invest in your project.

I get it.

But the difference with having friends and allies, it means that if you get that promotion, I am cheering you on Roberta and celebrating with you.

So competition is about how do we learn and grow together versus in an unhealthy and a toxic environment, then it's about how do I knock you down?

How do I win so that you lose?

And that is not a sustainable environment, because who wants to work in a dog-eat-dog environment?

We want to have some fun at work.

We want to feel like you have my back versus you're trying to potentially metaphorically stab me in the back.

And that's the difference.

And now speaking of toxic, you talk about toxic bosses.

What has been your experience, especially when it comes to your coaching business, when people come to you and they say, I love my job, but I don't know how to deal with my toxic boss.

So it's interesting that you asked that, because I've just written a series of three articles on that very topic.

And it kind of goes back to something I said earlier on about how nobody gets up in the morning wanting to do a bad job.

Well, I can guarantee there are very few people on this planet who get up in the morning, hoping to be seen as a toxic boss.

But I have had one and it is soul destroying.

It drains your energy.

It is stressful.

You're trying to guess what is, who's going to show up today?

Is it going to be Jekyll or Hyde, good cop or bad cop?

And so that stress in the short term, might help us improve our game, because we're preparing and checking the numbers and dotting our eyes and crossing at ease.

But long term, it just causes stress and anxiety and will likely cause us to leave.

So there's two sides to your question.

One is, what do you do if like me, you are working for a toxic boss?

Well, firstly, you're not alone.

So speak to your allies, your friends at work and see, is it just you or are others experiencing it too?

And what advice do those who seem to have a good relationship with your boss?

What advice or tips do they have for how you can choose to turn the dial up or down in terms of how you show up in that next conversation?

Some of the responses, you've got to choose to own a little bit of it and see what can you do to influence change.

If that doesn't work, depending on how toxic that relationship is, in your next one-on-one, there's an opportunity for you to ask for what you need.

To provide a little bit of feedback to your boss, but it really depends on how toxic that relationship is.

So for example, if your boss is interrupting you in meetings and it's causing you to shut down, it may be an opportunity to say, hey, while I'm here, I have an ask.

I noticed that in the last few meetings, you've cut off my thoughts.

I haven't been able to finish my point, and I would appreciate it if I can finish my thought before you give me coaching and feedback on how I might need to do different.

And again, there's an infinite number of ways of handling it.

So step one is, what can I do?

Step two is to ask for what you need.

And step three really of toxic bosses and the articles I wrote is, well, what if you are the toxic boss?

Because as I said, nobody wakes up intending to be that.

So what happens if you have received that feedback?

Well, even if that wasn't your intent, if in your enthusiasm to talk about something that your team member has just raised and you want to go deep, you find yourself interrupting them, this is a habit I have, then you've got to listen to that feedback and choose whether or not you're going to adjust.

Because ultimately, if you've got a toxic boss or a toxic colleague, it's your talented employees who end up leaving.

And so it's a business issue.

It's a personal issue because your leadership reputation is being impacted if you've got that reputation.

And if you're on the team of somebody who you're butting heads with, then your own career is being impacted.

Nobody gains.

Speaking of feedback, how receptive is a toxic boss to feedback?

Doesn't it make the toxicity worse?

Because they think you're pushing back?

It can do, Roberta.

And so here's the thing.

I was talking to the CEO of this company.

I was on a flight from Colorado back to London.

And I was talking to my seatmate, and he was the CEO of this large company.

And he initially was of the mindset, well, I can't possibly have friends at work because I'm the CEO.

But I pointed out to him that actually how could he not?

Because if he doesn't have at least one ally on the board who are holding him accountable, he could be blindsided by words or actions or requests from them.

And if on his leadership team he doesn't have at least one ally, he's more likely to get yes as an answer versus the candour and debate needed to ensure that his company was successful.

And by having a, whether you call it a friend, an ally, a healthy human relationship, if we cultivate that, if when there is time where you might need to give me tough feedback or heaven forbid, lay me off, then maybe you're more likely to do that with compassion in a way that preserves the relationship for the long term.

So you're right.

It's potentially career risk for me to give my boss that tough feedback, but it's also definitely career risk for the boss if they're not getting the feedback.

So my advice is caution, thoughtfulness, check with your ally before rushing into your boss's office, because yes, it may inflame the situation, but it may also, and I share some of these stories in my book, Cultivate the Power of Winning Relationships, it may actually be the catalyst for change because nobody has told that person before how their behavior is landing for others.

You need your blind spots indeed.

No matter the station, the role, the position, you need your blind spots.

That's why we say leaders shouldn't have this pressure off, I need to have all the answers.

Yes.

I mean, if they're creating an environment where they can accept or admit, I don't know, Alan Mullaly, who's retired CEO of Boeing and Ford, shares his leadership journey quite extensively, and he talks about business being love made visible.

Think about that for a moment.

Love made visible.

Those are powerful words.

But he talks about his business plan review process, where it's not him solving for the issues in the organization, it's what do we as a leadership team need to do.

As leaders, it's creating that space for feedback.

It is creating the space in our team meetings for what's working and what's not, both collectively for the team, but also for how I'm showing up as a leader.

And the first few times that you ask, you might get crickets, you might get, oh, nothing, you're great, Roberta, there's nothing you need to do differently.

But if you keep asking over time, then people are going to start to have confidence and believe that you mean it, and you may start to have that feedback that you need in order to get to that next level.

And recognize you're successful because of many things.

So often, the feedback that you're getting isn't huge 180 transform your personality.

It's things like pause before I answer.

Let others finish their sentence before I make assumptions about what they're going to say and interrupt, which I so well demonstrated earlier in our conversation.

It's the reminder to pause, to create the space that allows the relationship to flourish, that allows all of us to feel like we are seen and heard.

Speaking of being seen and heard, you know the water cooler conversations before COVID.

So you could start to create those workplace connections because you talk about the weekend and the sports, but then you moved to this virtual meetings, everybody's working from home.

How was it possible to continue to maintain those connections?

Because now we're not physically in the same space.

Yeah.

So you're right, COVID and working remotely through the camera did a doozy on our relationships.

And I think early in the pandemic, we all made the mistake of assuming, oh, it's only going to be two weeks, it's only going to be three months, it's only going to be.

And we tried to force fit how we worked in three dimensions into this two-dimension environment.

But I don't know about you, Roberta, but I have sat through many a Zoom meeting where I've done what I call fake perky.

You know, where you go through, oh yeah, everything's lovely.

And then you hang up the end and you go, oh my goodness.

So glad that's over.

That's terrible.

Yes.

So first of all, we've got to create an environment in our hybrid world where we're checking in, not just on what people are doing, but how they're doing.

Because the other shift that I saw that happened almost immediately on camera was that people would jump into the Zoom meeting or the Teams meeting, whichever platform, and if you were five seconds late, people would be going, I'm so sorry, I'm late.

And when we were in the office, you could roll into a meeting five minutes late and nobody would comment for the very reason you mentioned.

We'd bump into each other in the corridor and quickly catch up.

I'd go grab a coffee on my way.

Maybe I had a restroom break, heaven forbid.

And so allowing the space, whether it's at the beginning, the middle or the end of your Zoom meetings, to just check in on what are your plans for the weekend.

Tell me about the beautiful vase that you have behind you.

Starting to get the window into people's lives starts to build that connection.

Before the pandemic, I was a real skeptic of anything virtual.

I firmly believe that if you wanted to be a better human, you had to do it in a room with other humans.

Well, we had three years of working virtually and still do.

And some of my newest and deepest friends, I've made through the camera because I've chosen to reveal a little bit more about me in those conversations as have they.

And I've redefined what does it mean to be a friend or a good colleague.

And it doesn't mean that we have to go for lunch or have coffee or go for drinks after work.

It just means that I need to occasionally slack you or text you or just zoom you for the sheer joy of, let's just catch up what's happening in your world.

So there was a lot there, Roberta.

What resonated for you?

The fact that, yes, you don't have to be physically there.

And when you said you've made friends here, and I said same because I've met some, even if I don't podcast and we don't even talk about business, we are just friends talking about life.

So it proves that you don't have to be physically present and we can redefine the way we connect with others.

Yes.

We're thinking it should only be in the office.

Agreed.

Because here's the thing, technology only gives us the illusion of connection.

And so what we need to be doing is leaning in, and as I said earlier, checking in on how people are doing, sharing those snippets, you'd have to share everything of what's happening in our lives outside of the celebrity squares that we see on screen.

If any leader is listening to this part and they think, listen, Morag, I have 50 people on my team, 50 times a minute of asking each one how they are doing.

It's already 50 minutes, which is the meeting duration.

Yeah, absolutely.

It would be too much.

But that's why we have chat functions.

That's why we can say, pick a number between 1 and 10, 5.

Okay, I want to hear from 5 of you.

Roberta, what's brought you joy this week?

In fact, Roberta, what's brought you joy this week?

Tell me.

Catching up with my friend who's in Canada.

We haven't spoken in a while.

That was really fun.

There you go.

See?

Then I could say, Roberta, you now get the power of selection.

Pick one of our colleagues.

Now you can bounce it around popcorn.

Me as a boss, I don't have to do the selection, the team can.

Okay, we've heard from 5 people.

I've seen leaders who will say, put one word in the chat that describes how you're feeling right now.

Not because they're then necessarily going to discuss them, but it gives them a pulse.

And I've seen those word clouds.

It can be stress, anxious, happy, you know, excited, curious.

But once you see that word cloud, now you can make a decision about how you want to conduct the rest of the meeting to ensure that you have a greater chance of an outcome.

And it all comes from just pausing and seeing the people versus just seeing the decision or the business meeting that needs to be conducted.

When you work, because you work globally in different countries, have you noticed based on culture, how different connections are established because, you know, in this country, this is how they do it, in this country, this is how they move differently?

Yes, though it's not my area of expertise in terms of cultural nuance, but certainly in terms of, for example, I had a young startup company that was based in the UK, and there the average age of the employees was probably under 30.

And it was a bit like you just described, 50 people came on to the Zoom call.

And I'm not joking, you could almost feel them bound in with energy and enthusiasm.

And it was a cacophony of sound, because people literally were shouting to each other across all of the squares and reconnecting out loud.

Now, I had another company that I was working with in Asia who was much more quiet and reserved and waiting to be called on.

And so there we were just doing different techniques to help people connect, but respect them where they're at.

But it doesn't still remove the need for us to slow down a little in order to give that time and space, because relationships happen not just in the work that we have to do, but it happens in the space between the work, the passing places, the water cooler equivalents that we need to now reinvent if we're working in a hybrid way.

It's funny you mentioned the far Eastern culture, because I taught in South Korea, and I keep emphasizing to my friends who are professionals here in America that you have a global organization and you have someone from that part of the world.

Unless you call on them, please just be aware, because you are working with Americans and they just speak up.

They know to just raise their hands, speak up and say something.

Please be aware and actually take the initiative until they get comfortable, of course, to say, we haven't heard from you.

What do you think?

Because the respect culture is designed is that you don't speak unless called upon, like you said.

Yes.

Or another technique I saw another leader do was to just send, hey Roberta, on Thursday, we're going to be talking about X.

And I would really like your opinion on that.

So now you've got time to think about what your response is.

You know I'm going to call on you as well.

So it's not even being put in the hot seat.

And so that can help create those environments.

Using technology to create the breakout rooms.

So instead of it trying to be, if you've got 50 on a Zoom call, then good luck to you anyway, or 50 in a real world meeting, then good luck to you.

But at least with technology, we can put people into little groups of four that say, hey, in your group of four, I'm going to give you five minutes, 10 minutes, A, to introduce yourselves, but also to answer this question.

And when you come back, please put your responses in the chat, and I'm going to call on three rooms so that we can hear the themes that are emerging.

So there are ways to go away and come back whilst staying in the same room, that in some ways can be more powerful than if we are all sitting in the same conference room together.

Breakout rooms have created some very good connections for me.

There's just the two or three at maximum four of you getting to know each other.

Yes, I've had some good friendships come up, that's true.

Yes.

What are the costs of not working on these workplace connections and relationships?

Well, I know the cost is ongoing.

So 20% of leaders who've taken our ally mindset profiles say they have no friends at work, no one that they can turn to, which on a good day is still heart breaking, but on a tough day when things aren't going to plan is even more stressful.

As I look at it though, and as the data from McKinsey, they were reporting that 46%, but it was 46% of leaders say that they are feeling symptoms of stress and burnout.

Going back to our earlier conversation about toxic bosses, 75% of employees in another McKinsey service said that interacting with their boss was the most stressful part of the day.

Three quarters?

Three quarters!

They are worried about what their boss is going to say or do.

Isn't that heartbreaking?

I am on a mission to create those cultures of connection and break down those barriers, because ultimately the research shows when we have friction, when we don't have that sense of culture of connection, information slows down, decision quality gets impacted, and therefore the very results that we're being held accountable to deliver also suffer.

That is so profound.

75%.

That's why the increase in stress and all the other symptoms.

Yes.

The last words of wisdom.

Anything I haven't asked you, you were hoping to share with our listeners today.

I just want people to understand that cultivating your winning relationships, it's not a nice to do, it's a need to do.

Not just for the business results.

Yes, those are important.

But for that sense of connection and belonging, because it makes a difference to each of us.

And you said it, we spend most of our lives, our waking lives, at work, whether that's working through the camera, working side by side in the same office.

And therefore, it's in our interest to have those trusted relationships, those go-to colleagues that we can turn to, but also to show up as that go-to colleague that others can turn to when they are feeling stressed, overwhelmed or unsure about the next step to take.

Words of Wisdom from Morag Barrett, the founder of Sky Team, executive coach and leadership expert who helps individuals and organizations globally make better workplace connections and build relationships.

Thank you very much for sharing your insights with us today.

My pleasure, Roberta.

And before you go, would you like our listeners to reach you and where can they find you online?

Oh, yes, please.

Well, firstly, I mentioned our Ally Mindset Profile and it is free.

So you are welcome to contribute to our research.

And you can do that by going to skyteam, S-K-Y-E, team.cloud, forward slash you, me, we.

You can learn more about our work at skyteam.com, S-K-Y-E, team.com, and of course, connect with me on LinkedIn.

And it is me that replies to all messages.

So do reach out if you have a question about leadership, about teams, or how to cultivate your winning relationships.

skyteam.com, skyteam.cloud, slash you, me, we.

in order to take the free, thank you very much, for the free Ally Mindset Profile, so we can contribute to the research, and then Morag can spread the word and fulfill this mission.

Thank you very much, Morag, for being on the show today.

Thank you.

My pleasure.

Thank you for joining us on the Speaking and Communicating Podcast once again.

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