Speaking and Communicating Podcast

The more challenges we've had, the more material we have for humor.

And we started looking for the humor in my experiences.

I found out that I had talent for writing jokes, and it changed my life.

I told you about driving down the street and hearing a song, reliving the negative experience and having a panic attack.

After taking the class, when I heard that song or reminded of a particular experience, instead of having that panic attack, anxiety attack, go to that negative place, I said, okay, where can I find the humor in that?

It just changed everything.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.

Now, let's get communicating.

Now, let's get communicating with Dave Mowry, joining us all the way from Oregon.

He is a stand up comic who uses humor to heal.

We will listen more to his story as it takes us through some of the mental illness struggles that he faced over the years and how he's now helping others to do the same.

And before I go any further, please welcome him to the show.

Hi, Dave.

Hi, Roberta.

How are you?

I'm doing well.

It's not raining, so I'm happy.

Is that what Oregon is famous for?

It's famous for rain.

We've had great weather, but the last few days have been very, very raining, so it's nice to have a break.

Wow.

Thank goodness for that.

Welcome to the show.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Dave Mowry.

I live with bipolar disorder and severe anxiety and have my, all my adult life.

I had dark days and hard times, introverted, I don't know, introverted.

Yes, scared to death to talk to people because I knew they'd look at my eyes and see the emptiness there and the anxiety and the lack of self-worth.

So I had real trouble communicating with people.

At one point, I even took to going to the mailbox to pick up the mail at night, so I didn't run into any neighbors and have to talk to them and have to see them.

And slowly over time, things got better and I was able to interact with people.

And it was a very slow process.

Then I took a stand-up comedy class for folks with a mental illness, started to look for the humor in my experiences and found it.

And it certainly changed my life.

And now I teach other folks with mental illness and help them find humor in their experiences.

And I see the same transformation happening with them.

Well, thanks so much for the work that you do.

When did you first discover that you had these issues?

Actually, I was in middle school about seventh, eighth grade.

I'd go to school.

The anxiety was overwhelming.

The night before school, I'd lay in bed and I wouldn't be able to sleep, and I'd have anxiety, and I just had to go to school because I'd have to interact with other people.

I'd have to talk to other people.

Again, my anxiety was inside myself.

I felt worthless.

I was embarrassed.

I just didn't know how to communicate.

And that went on for years and years and years.

Then I've had some good years where I was able to communicate exceptionally well, and I did well in business and in work.

But I always ended up going down the other side into depression or going up into mania and going through the same challenges with communicating with people and being present, just being out.

An event where I was around other people, I'd hide in the shadows.

I would try to blend into the wall.

If somebody came up to talk to me, I'd be the least interesting person in the world.

If they asked me a question, I'd give them a one word answer.

I would just pray that they left me alone as soon as possible.

That's the backstory.

When you were at school and you felt that way the night before going to school the next day, was it because something had happened?

Were you bullied?

Did kids, when you communicate, say something negative?

Was school tough?

Were some teachers mean?

Is there a particular reason you can pinpoint or it just you felt that way?

Yeah, it was none of those things.

It was just inside me.

It was anxiety and fear of being around other people and interacting with other people.

And I'd go, if I had to get up in front of a class for some reason, I'd have a panic attack.

I'd start sweating profusely.

Sweat would run down my face and my armpits would get soaked.

My shirt would get soaked.

It was everything I could do just to not run out of the room, just to not run away.

That's where I was, and it was all inside me.

It was just my anxiety.

It was my brain.

And so I didn't experience bullying or other things like that.

Did you speak to parents, teachers, principal, guidance counselor about how you felt, or it was just internally?

No, it was just internally.

Yeah, I kept it inside.

I thought I was a bad person.

How could I feel this way unless I was a bad person?

I must be a bad person.

I must be doing things wrong.

So, I'd find myself praying just to be okay, just praying not to feel that way.

I didn't talk about it with my parents.

I didn't talk about it with the family.

I didn't talk about it with the councils.

It was just inside me.

I saw other people having fun.

I saw other people talking, and I just knew I was different and couldn't figure out why it was that way.

And you didn't know where their confidence came from, or why they were so comfortable interacting when you didn't feel that way.

Yes.

I would see it and I would envy it.

At that point in time, I was standing there or sitting there, feeling inside, just feeling scared to death to talk to anybody.

It's interesting that you had that starting from middle school, as you said, but then you went on to have successful businesses.

Yeah.

I was kind of in, as I got older, my bipolar, I was in cycles.

So I had the depression and I was down, and I had the anxiety.

The anxiety was constant, but when I was not depressed or when I was not manic, the anxiety was under control.

And so I'd be able to talk to people, I'd be able to do things, and I was able to be successful.

Would only last for, say, three years, and the anxiety would get overwhelming, and I'd just have to escape.

So I sold businesses that I shouldn't have.

It was so overwhelming, I had to get out.

I had to sell my business, my businesses, and just take time just to be, just to hold on, just for the anxiety to lift, and just for the depression to lift.

And sometimes it was months, and sometimes it was years.

It happened over and over.

The bipolar disorder, the ups and downs, came and went, and so there was some time in between where I was just stable and felt fine.

But the anxiety was always there.

It was constant.

The anxiety was the worst part of my mental illness.

It would be less from times, but many times it was just overwhelming, and it didn't necessarily depend on my, the mood that I had from my mental illness.

Did you seek any professional help during that period, especially when you sold your businesses and you realized, this is really impacting my life in a way that I would not rather it did?

It took me a long time to realize something was wrong, that, you know, I knew other people didn't feel it, but as I matured and got to be an adult, I realized that I didn't have to be this way, I didn't think.

Again, I prayed not to be this way.

I prayed for relief, but I did seek help.

I saw psychiatrists, psychologists, support group.

I think the support group helped the most in that I heard other people telling their stories, so I knew I wasn't alone.

But my experience with psychiatrists and psychologists, it wasn't helpful.

Sometimes, they talked more about themselves than they did listening to me.

And sometimes, I felt like they were just checking boxes.

So that wasn't very helpful.

But I did.

One of the psychiatrists we talked about gave me a medication that would help with the anxiety.

So that was very helpful.

It didn't solve it, but sometimes it made it less so that I was able to interact with people.

How did it affect your personal relationship?

When I was feeling okay, I would get along with people and develop friendships.

Then I'd slide into the anxiety and the depression, and I would isolate.

And so I would let those relationships go.

And just because of my situation and my anxiety, my illness, I would cancel getting together, or I wouldn't show up, or whatever.

And I'd go and I'd sit in the parking lot and just try to gather myself so I could go in and interact and communicate.

Sometimes I could, but many times I just couldn't get out of the car.

I just couldn't.

I'd see people walking into the building or the restaurant, and I'd know I wanted to do that, but I just couldn't.

I just couldn't.

I'm curious, the way you see yourself, when you think of others and having the anxiety in interacting with them, how do you think, at least what you tell yourself, how do you think they perceive you?

Boring, insecure.

I believe and I can do it.

You can smile with your mouth, you can do things, you can talk, but your eyes don't lie.

So when I was feeling the anxiety or the lack of self-worth and the depression, I knew people could see it in my eyes.

So I was very uncomfortable and again, interacting with people or being in front of a group somehow.

The anxiety would start and then the panic attack would kick in.

It was just awful and I'd have to escape.

And then it took days and days and days to recover from the panic attack.

And so it was such a negative experience that the next time, it was that much harder to interact with people.

But I think what helped me and has helped me to get to this point, and it's only been really the last 10 years, where I've been able to be comfortable and interact with people and really communicate, be myself.

I think that getting there was listening to other people, getting out of my head.

That's the only way I could do it.

Once I was able to get out of my head and not be thinking about myself and how overwhelmed I was and how it looked and how people could see me and how vulnerable I was once I got out of my head, and I could start interacting with other people.

I was about to ask if anybody has ever said anything positive about you, and if they do, does that stick?

Or you just brush it off because what's in your head at the time is that powerful?

During the bad times, it didn't stick.

It was just, it came in and it went because it wasn't what they thought.

It was how I felt.

And I was so overwhelmed with the anxiety and fear that that's where I was at, and that's where my head was at.

So, no, it didn't stick.

Over time, I just got better.

Took years to get diagnosed.

Took years to get on the right medication that helped me because bipolar disorder is a chemical imbalance in the brain, and there is help, and there is medication now, whereas there wasn't before when I was getting diagnosed.

And since I've found those things, I've gradually recovered, and I'm able to communicate with other people.

I work for a mental health nonprofit, and I do, I've done peer support, trained in peer support, certified peer support specialist, and that's where me, as someone with a mental illness, I work with someone else with a mental illness who's going through their difficult times.

So I share a bit about myself, but mostly I listen to them.

And doing that has helped me really recover and gain my confidence and be able to communicate with other people.

That is so powerful.

Thanks for the work that you do.

One other question I had, so we knew you were talking about the support group, and you said they were some of the most helpful tools in helping you heal.

What do you think is the reason that support groups are that effective?

Just from my experience, it was listening to other people, finding out that I wasn't alone, that other people were going through some of the same things.

So I realized I wasn't alone.

I realized I wasn't a bad person.

I realized that it was happening with other people.

And so that was what was most helpful, you know, listening.

And one of the most important things that I've discovered with communication is I've learned the ability, developed the ability to listen, to really be interested in hearing what other people have to say and hearing about other people and their experiences.

And I've got an acronym that I use when I work and working with other people.

And the acronym is WAIT.

I don't know if you've heard it, W-A-I-T.

And it's, yeah, it stands for Why Am I Talking?

If I find myself doing most of the talking, then I'm not communicating as well as I can.

If I find myself listening and really listening to someone, then I communicate and I'm able to talk to people and I'm able to listen to people and I'm able to have a real conversation and make a difference in somebody else's life.

If I hear myself say the word I, it's like a trigger, not a trigger, but an important thing.

Again, why am I talking?

What am I saying?

Am I talking about myself?

Does it fit into this conversation?

Is it something that really fits in the conversation?

Whereas many, many, many people, when we communicate with others, we do most of the talking.

We talk about ourselves.

We don't give the other people a chance to talk about themselves.

So just the act of listening attentively and being there and being present for them, then I'm able to share some of what, you know, my experiences.

And that's what it is, is sharing my experiences and not wanting to get anything out of it.

When I meet somebody for the first time, I look at them and I smile.

I think, I like you.

I say it silently to myself.

I say, I like you.

And when I do that, I smile with my mouth, but I also smile with my eyes.

And then I ask questions.

It's not about me.

I call it smile, ask and listen.

So I smile.

I'm sincere.

My eyes smile because I like that person.

I say, I like you.

And then I ask about them and about their experiences or who they are, and they talk and they tell me.

Because most people like to talk about themselves.

I'll truly listen, repeat back some of the last words they say.

So they know I'm listening.

After a conversation, oftentimes they'll say, essentially what they say is, I really enjoyed this conversation.

I really like talking to you.

You know, I like you as a person.

And all that happened is, I smiled, asked and listened.

And they did almost all of the talking.

When I had something to share, I would share, otherwise, it was listening and caring and smiling and truly being interested in what they have to say.

That's exactly the word I was going to say.

They say, when you are interested, you are interesting.

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

We tend as people to, you know, tell our stories or want to tell our stories or want to talk about an experience, we talk about ourselves.

If we are doing all the talking, then the other people don't get to share, don't get to interact.

They will walk away and not necessarily want to talk to us again or see us again.

But yeah, listening, repeating back, smiling, asking and listening.

Why am I talking if I hear myself say the word I?

And it's natural for me.

That's why I don't pause.

Okay, why am I saying the word?

But I hear it.

It's just a little reminder that, okay, I'm talking about myself.

Is it for the conversation or is it just for me to impress somebody or feel better about myself?

So I teach that.

I teach it's very important to do the smile, ask and listen, and repeat some of the last words somebody says.

And it's amazing if somebody says, I went to South Africa on a vacation.

I did this.

I really, really like this part of the trip to South Africa.

And instead of me saying, well, I went to Chicago and had a really nice time in Chicago, and I liked saying the magic mile.

Well, that's nice.

You both shared something.

But if he says or she says, I enjoyed this part of South Africa, and I just repeat back, so you enjoyed that part of South Africa, it's essentially a prompt.

And they start talking about the rest of their experiences.

And I'll share when it's timely and whatnot, but that's truly listening to what they have to say.

And when you're listening to somebody, they talk and open up.

You know, it just develops a solid relationship.

You also learn a lot when listening versus trying to impress somebody with talking.

When you listen, you are learning something new, whereas when you talk, you're just repeating what you already know.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

So how did you get in to stand up?

The last business I had, I had a breakdown, a mental breakdown, ended up in the hospital, my wife and family and I ended up homeless for 18 months.

And then I call the next 14 years were my last years.

I couldn't function.

I just couldn't.

I barely got out of the house.

If I got up in the morning and got down to the couch, it was everything I could do just to be, just to exist, just to hold on, just to be.

But over time, I recovered from that very gradually.

I had panic attacks four or five times a day.

I had to hear a song on the radio.

It would remind me of an experience, always a negative one, and I'd start to go into the anxiety.

I'd really live that experience, feel the anxiety, have a panic attack.

But over time, that improved.

And in 2010, I volunteered for NAMI, which is the National Alliance on Mental Illness, local affiliate, and then they offered me a job four hours a week.

I was able to do that for a year, and it was a huge success for me to be able to go to work four hours a week and do it, and not have a total meltdown.

They brought in a comedian from Vancouver, BC, who teaches stand-up comedy to folks with mental illness.

And at that point, for some reason, I thought, you know, I can do that.

So I took the class, what he did, what we do, is look for humor in our artist's experiences.

And the more challenges we've had, the more material we have for humor.

And so I had lots of material for humor, and we started looking for the humor in my experiences.

I found out that I had a talent for writing jokes.

Laugh out loud, find your jokes.

And who knew?

That's how it started, and it changed my life.

I told you about driving down the street, and hearing a song, or hearing a song, and reliving the negative experience, and having a panic attack.

After taking the class, when I heard that song, or reminded of a particular experience, instead of having that panic attack, anxiety attack go to that negative place, I said, okay, where can I find the humor in that?

It just changed everything.

The panic attack stopped, the PTSD stopped.

It changed everything, just looking for humor in my hard times and my dark days.

Listening to this, and I'm thinking, you know when they say when you laugh, the chemical reactions in your body, and earlier you were talking about how anxiety, the chemical reactions in your brain, so it literally changes the chemical reactions in your body because you are laughing at that moment.

You're finding the humor at that moment.

That's exactly right.

I remember when it was 2010, after the 14 last years, I remember when I laughed for the first time, and I truly laughed, a belly laugh, and I had, I just laughed, and I realized it was the first time I'd laughed in 10, 14 years.

And it was amazing that I laughed in the comedy class, writing the jokes, finding the humor, and one of the keys to a comedy.

I like my jokes.

I think my jokes are funny, and I help other people write their jokes, and they're funny.

So there's a lot of laughing, a lot of camaraderie that develops, a lot of positive feedback.

And yeah, it's under appreciated how much laughter can change the body, change the mind, change the thoughts, change our reactions to the experiences we've had in the past.

One example is Molly.

Molly was a doctor, and she always wanted to be a doctor.

She came to class.

Her mom brought her to class because she had to quit being a doctor because of her mental health breakdown.

She was lost.

She was a failed doctor.

That's how she saw herself.

And her mom said she was so subtle and she was afraid she was going to lose her.

And she came to the comedy class, and we started to look for the humor in her experiences.

The sense of failure, sense of loss started to lift.

She started to see herself as a comic.

And now she is a comic here, and she performs around town.

And she tells her story.

She tells stories about being a doctor and being an ex-doctor and losing everything.

It's just amazing how full of life she is and how she shares her experiences with others one joke at a time.

That is absolutely amazing.

Do you find that when you teach these stand-up classes, do some of the attendees say, you know, Dave, I don't know how to be funny.

My jokes are not funny.

Or somebody said they are corny.

Do they sometimes struggle?

Because you are confident in the fact that your jokes are funny, but is everybody feeling the same way about their talent?

Lots of times folks come in and think, I'm not funny.

I don't know how this could be.

And some people come in thinking they're really funny.

And sometimes that's the hardest because those are the hardest people to get out of their head and really find the humor.

But I can just help.

I can write jokes.

I can help people write jokes that are laugh out loud funny.

I, like I said, who knew?

No way to figure that was going to happen in my life.

But I'm able to help people find the humor and write laugh out loud funny jokes.

So after three or four weeks of the class, they're seeing these jokes, they're finding the humor, they're laughing about it.

And that all lives.

That all lives.

And oftentimes people will come to the class and they'll say, okay, I want to take the class.

I want to do this.

I want to find some humor.

But there's no way I'm going to get up and perform.

As we go through the class and we write jokes and we find the humor in their life and their laugh out loud funny jokes, they like their jokes too.

And they can't wait to get up on stage and tell it to an audience.

It's just amazing to see the transformation that happens with folks.

And Michael came to class and he whispered.

He couldn't talk above a whisper.

That's all he could do.

He couldn't communicate above a whisper.

And so he took the class and we found humor in some of his experiences.

And then I had him give him some homework to go home and work on his jokes, tell his jokes.

So I had him go into the bathroom at home and tell his jokes.

I said, if you think you're being too loud, you're doing just right.

So go to the bathroom and yell your jokes.

And he came back and he was talking, but, you know, softly, but above a whisper.

And then I had him go home and go into the garage and scream and yell his jokes as loud as he could.

And he did that.

And then he came back to class and he was talking.

And then by the end, he was interacting with people just as a normal person with a normal voice.

And he got up on stage and performed and did a great job.

It was amazing.

Watching that change, that was huge for him.

And that carried over.

I've seen him from time to time.

And all of that insecurity, that for whatever it was, that kept him from speaking above a whisper, that's all gone.

And it's all because of finding the humors in his experience.

And then having someone who was willing to say, okay, do this and do this and do this, without expectation on my part, without saying you should or I don't say the should word.

And so that transformation, it was amazing.

There are many stories like that.

Transformationally indeed.

It makes me think of, you know how they say, it's not the experience, but it's what we tell ourselves about the experience.

So if one moment you saw whatever experience it is as sad, versus now you can find the humor in it, it's not that the experience has changed, or that you flip the past and it was different.

It's what you tell your story about it.

That's exactly right.

The event, the experience hasn't changed you.

Like Molly, she still lost her ability to be a doctor.

That doesn't change.

But it's how she sees it, it's how she thinks about it, and how she sees herself now.

So it doesn't control her life.

She doesn't obsess about it.

She has regrets, but not resignation.

Yeah, my life has been very challenging, and I can look back at those experiences, and know they're there, and I have feelings about them.

But again, I look for the humor, and it changes the pathways in our brain.

We develop our pathways, and when we're depressed, or anxious, or panic attacks, we have those negative loops, and they go over, and over, and over, and over.

And that's creating pathways in the brain.

So next time we think about that event, those negative thoughts kick in, and go over, and over, and over.

And when looking for the humor in these experiences, it changes those pathways to say, where can I find the humor in that?

It's a huge relief.

It's just a relief.

And people find that they don't have to pretend anymore.

They don't have to pretend that they're okay.

They don't have to pretend.

Pretending is exhausting.

I pretended so much.

I pretended to be okay when I wasn't okay, and it was exhausting.

It certainly is, because you always have to put in this extra energy to be something you're not when you can just be.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I knew people could look at my eyes and see I was pretending.

And so that made each of those experiences a negative experience, and I would dwell on them.

I wouldn't have the negative lip about them.

So it was just over and over and over and on and on and on.

But the comedy changed my life.

I'm whole.

I smile, ask, and listen.

You know, the less we talk, the more people listen when we do talk.

Like if we're in a group, whether it be a work or a support group or something else, and we sit there quietly and we listen and maybe we ask a question.

When we talk, because we don't talk all the time, we don't ramble.

When we talk, people listen.

So it's very powerful.

It certainly is.

Please tell us about your book, OMG, That's Me.

OMG, That's Me.

I wrote for bphope.com blog, and I told my story 600 words at a time, different events.

I've been read by over a million people, and people, the most common response was, OMG, that's me, you're telling my story.

I don't feel so alone now.

So I compiled many of those blog posts, put them in the book, OMG, that's me.

It took off.

I've sold over 17,000 copies.

It's a bestseller in the bipolar disorder category on Amazon.

It's been named one of the best bipolar disorder books of the year, a couple of years, and finalist in the Next Generation Indian Book Awards.

You know, all it is is me being completely open and honest and telling my story.

It shares the experience of what it's truly like to live with a mental illness.

People reading it say, yeah, that's me, and they give it to their parents, or they give it to their psychologist, or they give it to a friend.

So it makes a difference in people's lives.

You know?

That's rewarding.

I'm terrible at promoting, though.

I'm really bad at promoting.

It's like I'm doing it for the wrong reasons.

Okay, if I'm promoting to sell books, and it's to sell books, that's the wrong reason.

I just can't do it.

But if I'm talking to you, and it's like an opportunity to share it with you and other people to make a difference in their lives, it's not about making money, it's doing it for the right reasons, and I can do that.

There's also OMG That's Me 3, which is about the stand-up comedy classes, and the folks, Molly's in there, Chapter 6, and there's stories about the folks who have taken the class.

And both OMG That's Me 3 and OMG That's Me are available, audiobook, and Kindle, and paperback.

And the audiobooks are actually doing better than the paperbacks now.

It just shows that, you know, and I know me, the annoying South African who keeps saying community, community, community, and really to my American listeners, because the fact that people are saying OMG That's Me, they are seeking community in the experience, you know, of whatever challenge they have with their mental illness.

And that's what I think people in this country, compared at least to where I come from, they struggle.

It's the feeling of I'm alone in this.

That's exactly right.

And community can be two people together.

It can be somebody reading my book or reading a blog post, and realize they're not alone.

That's community.

That's community just like being in a situation with three or four people and talking and relating.

It's the same as a community of people at work that can talk and trust each other.

So community doesn't have to be a large group.

It doesn't have to be something that you say, I've got to go do this or I've got to go do that.

It can be one person.

It could be one person speaking to one person or just listening to one person, and that creates community.

You know, that's where it starts.

Absolutely.

Dave, would you like our listeners to reach out to you, and where can they find you online?

The best place to find me online is Facebook.

Leave me a message and I will respond.

I always respond.

So, if anybody is interested in finding out more or talking, or even has a situation where they'd like to find the humor in it, let me know.

If anybody has a question about Smile, Ask, and Listen, or some other communication skills, reach out to me, and I'm happy to share about that.

So, yeah, Facebook, and I'll always respond.

It's kind of what I do now, you know.

I say every day, it's do something nice for somebody.

Smile, Ask, and Listen, and do your best.

That's why I tell my grandkids when I go out the door to school.

Those are the three things.

You know, Smile, Ask, and Listen, do something nice for somebody, and do your best.

We've focused so much on communication.

All the things that you've spoken about today, we always, always emphasize, and thank you for bringing a different perspective.

Yeah, you're welcome, and thank you for having me on your show.

You're good at what you do.

I enjoyed our conversation.

I had a great time indeed.

Thank you, Dave Mowry, the best-selling author of OMG That's Me, mental health blogger, healing with humor, using stand-up committee, and teaching others to do the same.

It's been a great pleasure.

Thank you, Dave.

It's been my pleasure.

Thank you.

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