Speaking and Communicating Podcast

So I think sometimes in order to feel like we deserve our leadership role, we feel a certain level of pressure to have the answers, to be able to direct the work, to be able to give advice and guidance when somebody comes to us.

But I truly believe as leaders, we stand to make a bigger impact if we ask people more questions.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning in to.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.

Now, let's get communicating.

Now, let's get communicating with Laura Buckley, joining us from Maryland.

She is a former army officer who is a registered dietician.

Wonderful combination there.

And she's a leadership consultant.

She's been doing this for over a decade where she combines workplace and well-being, especially coming from the army, which you're going to find very interesting.

Laura has been doing this for more than 10 years, as I mentioned.

She helps high-performing teams.

She helps leaders to thrive.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show.

Hi, Laura.

Hi.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

My pleasure.

Welcome.

We are excited that you've joined us as well.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

All right, everybody.

I am Laura Buckley.

As Roberta said, thank you for that intro.

I am an Army officer and registered dietitian turned leadership consultant.

I'm really passionate about what it means to be a great leader and to create cultures where people can just have a good experience.

We spend so much of our day in our workplaces, and I think it's important that those places are places where we can feel like we can be our whole selves, where we're cared for as humans.

And I think when we create those cultures, then people can give their best to your organization, to your customers, and they stay, and they bring other great people with them.

I am in Maryland.

I love it here.

We're starting to warm up, and so I'm a summer baby, and I'm ready for the sunshine to see a little bit more of it.

Oh, you do like summer, do you?

That's awesome.

First of all, what made you decide that going to the Army?

Or did you study dieticics first and then join the Army or the other way around?

That's right.

As a dietician, the fifth and final year of schooling is an internship.

And so the Army had one that was very, very, it was competitive, it was highly thought of.

And so I thought, why not?

I went for it.

And so I joined the Army to finish up my schooling, to do my internship as a dietician.

And then I stayed and practiced in the military for about eight years.

What was that like?

So for instance, if you had been a private dietician with your own practice versus working in the Army, how do you think that would have been different?

Oh, yeah.

That's a great question.

I think with the military, the biggest thing about it is that everybody's working toward the same mission.

So when you're working with individuals, whether they're active duty, whether they're retired, whether they're veterans, whether they're family members, everybody's connected to a bigger purpose and a bigger mission.

So there's just a sense of community and camaraderie and connection right away inside of those environments.

I think the other thing that was big is in the military, dieticians are really trained to support people with lots of different aspects of their well-being.

And so there was an element of supporting physical well-being.

There was also a lot of community care, and there was opportunities to support people's children.

And, you know, just it's a much broader holistic perspective of keeping like having a well community.

So I really loved that.

I also loved that I got to I had the opportunity to work with people who were having a hospital stay, work with people who were outpatient and just doing one-on-one coaching.

I had the opportunity to teach classes.

So I had a very broad experience as a dietician because in the military, we have access to all of those different opportunities.

It does sound like great exposure.

It's funny that you mentioned the word community.

I know I drill it here every single episode because as a South African, I think one of the culture shocks that I've experienced is that it's a bit more individualistic, but people are looking for community.

When you think of the fact that in America, people are struggling with even affording paid childcare, all of those things.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's true.

I think that when we see a movie, we focus on the warfighter, we think about combat, and that's kind of what people want to see in the movies.

But in order for people to be prepared for that, there has to be a sense of things taken care of behind the scenes.

People need to be trained well, people need to be fit and have a higher sense of well-being.

And I think what you said is so important, and I think it's something that I think about, I talk about, I hope we can really build toward is this piece of community care, and what it means to feel connected to the people around us.

Because we don't see in the background, we have family readiness groups, we have groups that to help when a soldier is deployed, to make sure their family is connected to the community, and has resources and support that have help.

You know, it's when you when someone is injured, or when someone's just ill because, you know, humans get sick, whether they're civilian or military, that there's a huge system behind them to provide care and support.

Maybe it's not so exciting that it makes the big screens, but it's a really important aspect of why people can be successful in that peer part as well.

Because we just wired that way.

We're social beings.

We're not islands, you know.

We are not.

And we do want to feel, like you said, part of a bigger purpose.

And being part of a bigger purpose, you want to feel that first of all, I'm not alone.

And there are other people working towards the same goal, the same purpose as I am.

And that, I think, is really what connects people.

Yeah, I think so too.

And I think it's why I still find most of my work is either in the government, in health care, or in nonprofit, which I think are places where we do see a bigger sense of community and connection to a mission and a purpose.

So how did you decide you are now going to focus on being a leadership consultant?

One of my assignments in the Army was to train Army cooks.

So I stepped out of health care for a couple of years, and I spent my time training Army cooks and other food service professionals.

And I just loved it.

I loved the training element.

I loved being in a school house.

I loved just everything about that behind the scenes piece of some of how we feel and how we nourish our soldiers.

And so I ended up studying adult education.

I was like, all right, I want to do more of this.

I want to create a career where I can be more in the training space.

And then from there, my master's degree just focused on leadership studies and bringing adult education into the leadership world.

And so after I finished my degree, I started looking for opportunities to really stay in that leadership training space.

When it comes to facilitation, what makes a good or effective facilitator versus one who just dishes out the material, goes home and say, I hope you all got it?

Yeah.

So there are a couple of things I'm hearing, so you'll have to let me know.

So I think about facilitation and training as kind of two separate things.

And so when I think about facilitation, because that's one of my main things, is facilitating other people's meetings and making sure that every meeting has a purpose, has a goal, has conversations built to actually serve the purpose.

So that we're not meeting just because we always meet on Monday at 10, but because we're being really intentional about how we use our time, how we engage everybody who's there, how we make sure it's meaningful to the participants and we have outcomes.

So there's facilitation in that way.

And then my trainings are also something that I consider facilitated spaces, but they're around a certain topic.

And so when I think about leadership training, my number one thought is how do I create a sense of connection to each other and to the content?

Because I really feel like if you could have read it in a book or an article, you don't really need me, right?

But leadership training is most successful when the facilitator can make sure people are engaging with each other.

People have opportunities to try out the material, to actually put it into practice instead of just hearing about it in theory.

Right?

Or hearing other people's stories takes a whole new shape, but you have to practice it yourself, right?

So, you know, a good facilitator in those ways makes sure the session is designed to have conversation.

You know, I always think like one of the best things that comes out of the leadership trainings that I do is that colleagues get to know each other better, that colleagues get a better sense of safety with each other.

Because I'm not going to give you feedback or have a difficult conversation with you if I don't feel a sense of safety or security or connection, right?

So it's like the learning is important, but the connection is probably the most valuable thing.

Which can lead to them being high performing when they feel connected.

Because I think, yes, I think that the current corporate space, at least from what we see, is the competition.

So I must one up on you so that the boss can promote me instead of Laura.

Instead of working together.

That's right.

Yeah.

So how do we come out of that environment, at least for a moment in time, so that we can, I always say, see each other as the humans that we are.

We're unique.

We're all special in our own way.

And the more we see each other for who we are, instead of the work that we do, the more likely we are to take some risks and solve problems in a different way and be honest about our capacity and where we feel like we're thriving and where we're struggling.

People don't admit those things or share those things until they have a sense of trust and safety in the workplace.

And wouldn't you say it increases your well-being as well if you're in an environment like that versus competitive, backbiting, step backstabbing so that we can get promoted?

Yeah, because people get stressed and burn themselves out to prove a point.

Just go down that rabbit hole.

Right.

Yeah, this whole thing, you're like, I gotta be the best.

I've got to have the answers.

I've got to be the one.

I really take a step back from that because I think we often focus on, you know, finances and customer satisfaction, right?

Like those are kind of like I call them like the tip of the organizational iceberg is we want to know how the bottom line is performing and we want to know how well our customers are satisfied with their experience.

But beneath the surface and what truly creates those outcomes is what's happening inside of your organization, right?

What is your organizational culture?

How are your employees feeling?

Like how committed are they to your organization?

Because if somebody feels well in their workplace, if someone feels supported, if someone feels connected and engaged, they're going to give so much more to your customer.

Because they feel a sense of responsibility for the organization's success, not just their individual success.

That's where I spend a lot of my focus, is that piece around how do we take care of the people, because if we do, they will take care of our organization, and it will be easier to achieve those above the waterline tip of the iceberg outcomes.

The people who are on the front lines indeed.

Somebody once said, it's easy if an organization is already doing well to neglect that aspect of their team's well-being, because they're thinking, what's the big deal?

But then, what kind of clients approach you and say, we have a problem?

Yeah.

So when people start seeing some turnover, this is probably the number one indicator that someone's like a little red flag goes up and they say, oh, I better start paying attention to this, right?

So if you have employees who are coming in, in particular, when your newer hires aren't lasting and they come in and kind of quickly deciding it's time to go, it's a good indicator that something might be a little bit of challenge inside of the culture.

When we start seeing groups kind of separate off, when we start seeing more gossip, when we start seeing like the chatter, when we see more complaints coming from within, I think the earlier the better, when you start seeing those things, to start figuring out what's going on and making some changes, because the longer we let it go, the worse it gets and the more it ripples through the organization.

Because if you don't nip it in the butt, it's just going to keep escalating.

That's right.

Now, if you have team members and one of them does get promoted, so we were peers before, and suddenly the dynamic changes, how do they bridge that gap?

How do they get rid of the awkwardness, so to speak?

Yeah, it can be really awkward.

And I think being honest about that is actually the most important thing.

You know, it's like you don't have to step into that new role and pretend like you're a different person now, right?

Just that it's a totally different relationship.

You know, my number one thing is, what does honest communication in that transition look like?

And I think especially if you have multiple direct reports, I think it's important to gather individually one-on-one because each person is going to have a unique experience of how they're relating to that person getting promoted.

But also as a team, you know, just really showing the commitment to the team, to the group, being honest to say, hey, this is a new dynamic for us.

So let's see what we need to tend to, to make it the most successful transition that we can.

You know, I'm working with a team now who did have somebody promote into a leadership position and somebody else on the team wanted it.

So now you're not just promoting a lot.

You're also now supervising somebody who also wanted that role.

And I think, again, just being honest, like, I get it.

I would probably feel a certain way if the roles were reversed, right?

So what can we do to work through this most effectively?

And sometimes, you know, we do a little bit of coaching to help guide that conversation if people aren't comfortable having it on their own.

And I think that's important too, is to get that support, because we often get promoted because of our technical skills, because of our experience, because of the work that we've done in the past.

But many people haven't had any training or any mentoring on how to have those, what can feel like vulnerable or difficult conversations.

And so I think it's important to honor that sometimes being promoted into a leadership role, and the path to success means getting some support, being a leader with those leadership skills, with those new responsibilities that you probably haven't had any training for.

So that was going to be my next question.

Exactly what you said we say on the show.

You get promoted because you're good at your job.

Right.

And then you get there and you go, Laura, I'm not good with people.

I just want to do my job.

I just want to do my job.

Yeah.

I'm not good with people.

I'm not good with all this conflict management and they're fighting, or I'm not good with mentoring or motivating or getting the team to...

What do they say is the actual challenge in most cases when they first step into it?

Because they haven't been coached.

Like you said, they're just good at their jobs.

I mean, most people say I don't have time for this.

That's a very honest answer.

I mean, honestly, I've worked with a handful of leaders recently who just can promote it into higher levels of leadership responsibility.

And I've heard each one of them say, you know, the job's not that different.

The job, the tasks are fine.

What's taking up so much of my time is how much I have to support or train or engage with my team.

You know, a person said, I've got 12 new direct reports and they're all different, and I have to get to know every single one of them in order to lead them.

Yeah.

I mean, that's no joke, right?

And I think because I think that's another piece with leadership that's so important is when you promote into higher levels of leadership, then a greater percentage of your time needs to be focused on your team versus your tasks.

And so it's important, like delegation becomes really important.

You've got to be able to take some things off your plate so you actually have time for the people side of the work.

We need to honor and acknowledge that people need that time and to not let it get booked over.

You know, it's got to be prioritized.

I see leaders who kind of kick that one-on-one conversation down the road.

They're like, oh, I had something else come up.

Can we reschedule?

I think it's got to be just the most protected time because it's that investment of time that empowers your team to need less of you overall.

I can see the struggle with delegation in here is why they were good at their job.

That's why they are here.

That's right.

If I hand it over to Laura, can I really trust she will do it as good as I would?

Yeah, it's huge.

It's a huge challenge.

Because it's a reflection of me if my 12 direct reports don't do as well.

Can you see the anxiety that they might be having there?

I 100% can.

I know.

It kind of comes back to these pieces that feel vulnerable, right?

Because it's not just about handing it off.

It's about how do we follow up?

How do we delegate well so that people can be successful?

You know, I was working with one CEO who's just said to me, she said, how do I care less about them doing it the way I did it and trust that they'll do it well in their own way?

Oh, please say that again.

And what a beautiful question.

How can I let go of needing them to do it my way and let them do it their way and trust that the outcome can be just as good?

I love that.

Yeah, it was a beautiful reflection.

And I think that level of self-awareness of saying, oh, I've got my hands in this because I know how to do it right.

You know, let me just stay on top of it so it can get done that way.

When the truth is, oftentimes when we delegate to somebody else who has a similar or ideally a higher skill set as a leader, I don't want everyone to be less experienced than me.

I want people around me who can do their job better than me.

Like Richard Branson said, I have people who are smarter than me.

Yes, exactly, right?

So how do we then trust that maybe their way is actually better?

But that's again, that's the vulnerable piece.

And I think I actually just had another CEO say to me, you know, a lot of this leadership stuff doesn't have any tangible outcomes.

And I was like, yeah, like we're not really checking any boxes here, right?

Like everybody and he loves to check the box.

He loves to have a task.

He loves to do it well and get that satisfaction of it being done.

And again, the more strategic we are in our leadership, the less of that like tangible check the box outcome we get, and the more we're coaching and holding our teams to holding our teams accountable for getting the for, you know, doing that work.

If that person is like that before the leadership role, what were they like as a team member?

Well, oftentimes they're great as team members because as a team, we all need to work together to get stuff done, right?

So as long as I'm taking responsibility for what's mine, and you're taking responsibility for yours, and as a team, we're getting all of our work done, it's great.

But then just thinking about the person who was more guiding the work, planning the work, checking in with people to make sure the work is getting done, but not necessarily doing the tasks themselves.

Right, the delegation.

The higher we get in leadership, the fewer tasks are on our plate, and the more our responsibility is in the strategic thinking and leadership side of things.

Absolutely.

You talk about curious leadership.

What does that mean?

Yeah, curious leadership means being really open to hearing from the people around you, from trusting other people's expertise, trusting that we don't have to have all the answers.

So I think sometimes in order to feel like we deserve our leadership role, we feel a certain level of pressure to have the answers, to be able to direct the work, to be able to give advice and guidance when somebody comes to us.

But I truly believe as leaders, we stand to make a bigger impact.

If we ask people more questions, if we get really curious before we try to solve problems, if we coach instead of advise, I think when we lean in to our capacity to ask questions and explore, we get better outcomes.

And it also takes a lot of pressure off because now we don't have to have all the answers.

We can just have a commitment to asking good questions.

Asking good questions.

You said coach instead of advise.

What's the difference?

Yeah.

So advising is when we just tell people what to do.

Oh, have you tried this?

Or here is a resource or go ask this person or try this new song.

You know, it's telling people what to do.

Whereas coaching is asking more questions.

You know, well, tell me what your goals are.

What have you tried before that's helped you get there?

Who else might be a good resource for you?

What are some obstacles you might see coming up along the way, right?

So it's about asking people for more insight, more information into what they're coming, as opposed to just jumping into directing or telling people what to do.

Because I think it's back to that trust issue again, when we were talking about delegation of if you ask the right questions, you trust that they be able to come up with the best answer for the scenario.

Because when you advise, the way you described it, it's like, yeah, if I was in your shoes, I'd do the same thing.

Yeah.

If I were you, this is what I would do.

Which is the same as, I'd do the job the same way as this, instead of what you do.

It was funny.

Yesterday, I was with a Navy midshipman, so a student at the Naval Academy.

He said to me, well, can you give me some coaching?

And I said, sure, but would you like coaching on?

And he said, what it means to be a good officer?

And so I said to him, well, tell me what you think it means to be a good officer.

What, who are some officers you've worked with already?

And what really resonated with you?

What did you like about their leadership?

Where do you already have strengths in those areas?

Where might you have some opportunity to grow in those areas?

Right?

So instead of just launching into my checklist of what it is to be a good officer, I asked him just like a question after, which I think he was just like, well, you just tell me.

Yeah, I don't have time for this.

Right?

Like that just, but that doesn't really land.

You don't grow just from being told what to do.

You grow a lot more when you're exploring.

That's very true.

Let's talk about influence.

There was a guest where we were talking about influence, and I gave them the example of my brother and I when we were talking about the way she raised us.

My mom would say, I knew that I was going to have smart kids and I will teach them.

And she encouraged us to come up if you break something, to be the one to volunteer the information instead of hiding it because you're going to be in trouble.

All of that.

And my brother used to say, the way Umar raised us, when you are on your own, you're not doing the right thing just because she's going to find out or she's going to be mad.

You're doing it because you know it's the right thing to do.

So her influence even in her absence, because a lot of kids, you know, you only do the right thing in front of your parents, but once they're gone, then you have a party.

So what is influence in terms of being a leader?

How do you influence your team so that they do the right thing even in your absence?

I love that story.

It's a beautiful story.

So I think part of what you said is so important is knowing that it's okay to try things.

It's okay to mess up.

It's okay to learn from our mistakes.

But there's a huge element of just being honest.

And in order for people to be able to be honest on your team, they need that sense of trust.

They need that sense that there will not be a backlash, that it will be met with education and growth opportunity.

To me, influence grows out of trust.

Because if people trust you, then they're more likely to feel supportive of your goals, committed to the team's goals.

They're more able to set aside that personal need to align with what the team wants to do.

I was just working with a team who they're working on their work plans, but ensuring that everybody's individual goals roll up to team goals, which roll up to the organization's goals, right?

Which means that I might have some great ideas about fun things I want to do in my job.

But if they don't align for the group, then I probably have to let it go in order to stay focused on what's going to move the needle for the team.

And so in order to have that influence to keep people, put up some guardrails so people can stay directed on what's important to the organization and the team, people do need to feel that sense of trust, of belonging.

There's a very strong perspective on the military, and I think it is true, is military has a big command and control environment, right?

We have very structured.

It's very hierarchical.

You know who has the say in your role.

And I think in terms of organization and communication, org charts and hierarchy serve a real purpose.

But I think when it comes to actually influencing people, we have to take a lot of responsibility for our personal impact.

How do people feel around me?

Do people think I care about them?

Do I show up in a way that is curious and honors other people's expertise?

Do I show up in a way that's consistent so that people know that like day to day, I am Laura, right?

That I'm not going to be one person one day and completely different the next day.

I think really being intentional about how we show up with our teams builds that trust, builds that safety, and also builds that commitment to staying aligned with the organization's goals, not just what comes up for me on a whim or that I think I would like to do.

Yeah, especially in this age of, oh, everybody just throw your ideas.

We can Google stuff.

Yeah.

You should align with where you are.

It's like one million ideas a minute.

I love ideas.

I love a good idea.

We all do.

You know, I would love to follow them all down every rabbit hole, but it is not a good use of resources.

Not with 24 hours in a day.

No.

Yeah.

Because the influence is more people having that trust in you and being committed despite your absence or presence or feeling that, or even being committed without thinking, oh, if I do this, this is what I'm going to get in return.

You know, she's going to promote me, give me a bonus check, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Well, I think to your point in organizations around people doing sort of this right, the right thing, it's also really important that our leader, our senior leaders and then their leaders, like that we're really creating that as part of the culture so that one person's not carrying it.

One person can't create the whole culture.

You have to have leaders who have similar values, similar understanding of the mission, who also have that opportunity to build trust so that people have fairly consistent leadership experiences.

You know, if you have two team members, or you have team members on different teams, and they're having completely different experiences with their leaders, you're not going to have that consistent influence through the organization.

So it's important as leaders that we do maintain a bit of accountability and consistency through our subordinate levels of leadership, so that the influence is throughout the organization, not just one person.

Absolutely.

Any last words of wisdom?

Is there anything you would have loved to share today that I haven't asked you yet?

You've asked so many great questions.

Just kind of going back to when we start with curiosity, it bridges so many gaps.

It helps us get to know people.

It helps us create more connection and community on our teams.

It helps our team members get to know each other.

And I think it's one of the skills that we're for sure not taught.

So just kind of leaning into asking more questions, not having to have answers, listening as a superpower.

It's such a great opportunity to grow as your leader and grow as a team.

Listening, they say you have two ears, one mouth, using proportion.

Words of wisdom from Laura Buckley, the leadership coach who's a former army officer and registered dietician.

This has been so much fun and very educational.

Thank you so much, Laura, for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's been great connecting with you.

My absolute pleasure.

Great connecting with you as well.

Would you like our listeners to reach out to you?

Sure.

I would love for you to.

You can find me at laurabuckleycoaching.com.

There are a couple of different ways to connect with me on there.

So you can connect with me through LinkedIn, hop on my newsletter, send out just some brief leadership tips every couple of weeks.

But yeah, I'd love to connect if it feels aligned.

laurabuckleycoaching.com.

Thank you for joining us on the Speaking on Communicating Podcast once again.

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