Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

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Now let's get communicating.

Now let's get communicating with my friend Latifa Aarab, who is a leadership coach and specializing in intercultural global differences.

She helps leaders with especially diverse workspaces where everybody can be driving and navigating these cultural differences in the workplace and find communities that will help us all win at the end.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show.

Hey Latifa.

Hi, hi Roberta.

Thank you very much for having me today.

I'm good.

How are you?

I'm doing fantastic.

It's my pleasure.

Welcome to the show.

I'm so excited that you're here.

Please introduce yourself.

I'll listen.

Well, I think you've done already a good job, but yes, I'm a leadership coach and an intercultural expert.

And so I help leaders and organizations to succeed in navigating across cultures.

And I use the approach of cultural intelligence.

I mean, it's all the research around that that I use to help leaders and organizations.

Yeah.

Of all the things you could have chosen as a career, why did you focus on culture?

That's a good question.

I think simply because I love culture since I am a kid.

It really goes back to my childhood.

I was born in France and I grew up in France from two Moroccan parents.

So from a very young age, I grew up with a dual culture.

At home, it was the Moroccan and it's still the Moroccan culture, but outside, it's the French culture.

It's really funny because really when I was younger, I always thought, oh my, it's interesting that I am experiencing these two cultures at once simultaneously.

And it really gave me this ability to perceive the world from different lenses.

So from a very young age, I've always understood that there is not just one way to read the world and to read how people behave, how people think.

Because in Morocco, people think, behave, act a certain way.

And in France, it's the same thing.

And so I've always been fascinated with cultures and very much opened to other cultures, yeah.

That's a very beautiful way of putting it, that you see the world in a different way.

So if you're in a Moroccan household, but you live in France, and you can tell those differences, was it challenging?

And did you ever think if I was a French kid in a French household, and I could go into French society, my life would be so much easier?

For me, there were a couple of things that were difficult.

The first one is the contradictions between the two cultures, right?

Let's take the example of France and how France is organized as a society and politically.

In France, it's a presidency.

You elect a president, and then you have a government that governs the country.

It's a secular country, which means that this religion is separate from the state, right?

But if you look at Morocco, Morocco is not a presidency, it's a monarchy.

There is a king, a monarch, who is now Mohammed VI, and the monarch is responsible for the country, for the people, but he's also a guarantor of the religion.

And the religion in Morocco is Islam.

In France, you've got Egalité, Fraternité, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, which is like freedom, brotherhood, fraternity, which means like solidarity between people, equality.

The equivalent in Morocco is God, the people, and the monarch, and the king, right?

You can see that in the French culture and in the Moroccan culture, it's totally different.

And so it took me some time to kind of reconcile the two and to understand that you can actually make the two cohabit within yourself, if that makes sense.

Okay.

If I'm here, because I'm guessing your parents conducted themselves in a Moroccan way in the household, but then you go out into French society.

Right.

Yes.

Navigating those differences, was it challenging for you?

It wasn't challenging.

I think that when you are a kid, you absorb everything.

It wasn't like a challenge, challenge because I was going to a French school.

So it's not something that was difficult, because it's not like I was born in Morocco, and then at 10 years old or 15 years old, I came to France and then I'm confronted to a completely new way of education.

Even the program in the curriculum is different.

It wasn't that type of difficulties.

But one of them was more around facing racism, which means that you are in that society at some point where you sort of can understand things, then you understand that you are different.

And you are sometimes reminded that your difference is not a good difference, right?

And that's when I understood racism from a very young age as well.

This is the part that was a bit challenging for me, because obviously I was born in France, I grew up in France, I didn't feel that I was a stranger, but it's like what the society mirrors to you as, oh, I'm not sure you belong to France.

So I think that was the part that was difficult.

But the part about understanding how to learn, how to read, playing outside with other kids, all kids do that, so it's not really a matter of whether it was something cultural or not.

That's so fascinating the way you explain that.

I remember when we used to teach English in South Korea, I would always emphasize to my students that English is not better than Korean.

Let's understand that.

It's a different language that if you want to venture outside of South Korea, especially when you get older, the rest of the world, you want to tap into more opportunities in English speaking countries.

It does not mean that it's a better language than yours.

We did not come here to make you think that Korean is less than.

Get that straight.

When you say that it made you feel that your culture is less than.

Because I think that's one thing people, when it comes to racism, that they misinterpret, which is just because it's different, it doesn't mean that it's less than.

Absolutely.

I always say that all cultures are different, but they are all equally different.

Exactly.

So now let's talk about when you finished school and you decided, was this the first career path you've chosen or did you first take a detour?

I took a detour.

So coming back to what you've just said, when I was at school, as I said to you, I understood from a very young age that you can see the world through as many cultural lenses.

And because I was also facing racism, I also thought, you know what, I don't want to be in a place where I will not feel that I belong.

And so I decided to study languages.

So at that time, I thought, okay, which language should I study?

And a little bit like you, with the Korean students, you are teaching them English because it's the international language.

So I studied English, I studied Spanish, and I studied a little bit also of Arabic.

Initially, I wanted to work in marketing, in a global organization, international organizations in marketing.

And I wanted to do something in cosmetics or fashion or something like that, which I didn't do at all.

Yeah.

But I ended up working in finance, in asset management.

When I started working in finance, I was working on the international market, so I've never worked for the French market even at that time.

So I joined that financial company and I was focusing on Europe, the European markets and the Asian markets.

You know, the time I started to work for the French market was when I came to the UK, and I worked for an American company here, and they were looking for people who were French speakers.

And that's when I started to work for the French markets with the French team in the UK.

And that really summarizes my career.

I've always sought an international exposure.

To be honest, it's simply because this is where I feel the most comfortable.

It's funny because knowing how to speak French opened up the opportunity because they said we're looking for French speakers.

That's right.

Yes.

So the beauty of being open to other cultures, other languages is actually beneficial to you.

Completely.

100 percent.

Yes, absolutely.

And in fact, when I was working in France, I was working for the Spanish market because I spoke Spanish.

There you go.

See?

Yeah, exactly.

It keeps opening up doors.

I love it.

Now, how did you then make the switch from finance to, I'm going to help leaders with intercultural expertise?

That was a jump.

As I said to you initially, I wanted to do something in cosmetics or in fashion.

And I ended up in finance, but it wasn't my first choice because I didn't really study finance.

But then you get into the industry and you're pushed to learn.

To be fair, I've learned a lot.

You learn a lot of skills in the industry, in the companies for which I worked.

But it's never been something that I was passionate about.

It's never been something that really made me wake up in the morning, feeling energized, excited about my day.

It pays the bills.

It's intellectually stimulating because markets change all the time with economics, with what's going on in the economy and in politics.

But other than that, it wasn't really my passion.

And at some point, I was a consultant in asset management.

And then one day, I was called for an interview to work for a consultancy firm.

And I started to take the interviews.

And I just thought, that's it.

I don't want to go back to the corporate world.

And I just thought, that's it.

I don't want to be a business manager there.

And I remember just calling the HR lady who was coordinating the interviews.

And I called her back and I said, look, I really appreciate it.

But the truth is that I think I don't want to do this anymore.

And she asked me, what do you want to do?

I said, I have no idea.

But the one thing I know is that I don't want to continue doing that.

And you know, when you are a kid, you follow your intuition, you follow your heart.

And then after 17 years in asset management, it took me some time before figuring out what do I want to do next.

Because it's one thing when you go through the elimination process, as I say, which is you want to eliminate the things that you know you don't want to continue to do.

But it's another thing to discover.

But what is it that you want to do?

And I didn't have the answer at the time.

So I tested, I just tried a few things.

And I came to the conclusion that I've always liked cultures, I've always liked languages, I've always liked being exposed to and speaking and living in international places.

And so I thought, you know what, this is exactly what I want to do.

And in fact, this idea of founding, creating Compatible, which is the name of the company and the brand as well, it was something I had in mind when I was 27.

And I found it in one of my notepads.

And I remember all the ideas that I wrote down.

And I was just like, this is it.

This is what I like and this is what I want to do.

That is so powerful, manifesting.

It never is too late because more than anything, like you said, you followed your gut, you followed your intuition.

I'm also wondering, when you were still working in finance, were there any triggers that you recognized and you thought, aha, this is a cultural difference moment?

Or the reason there's a misunderstanding here is the culture.

Were there any moments like that while you were still working in finance?

Yes.

Yes.

And I think about a couple of ones.

There is one, I was also working with the Middle East at the time, and I was also working on what called Sharia compliant funds.

That company was also based, they had an office in Saudi Arabia.

And so we were putting together, creating that product for that market.

The people in Saudi Arabia only invest in Sharia compliant funds.

I could easily see how people didn't understand that when you work with Middle Eastern people, there are things like building a relationship and trust, which is important.

As far as I am concerned, when I was talking and speaking with my counterparts in the Middle East, I would spend 30 minutes, 45 minutes, we would be talking about, what's going on in your life?

How is your family?

And then we would get to the conversation, okay, so how can I help you?

And because we build that sort of trust between us, they would tend to come to me if there was an issue and then use me as the sort of the person who's going to coordinate with the people in France.

For anyone listening, it's very important that you create that bond, that you create that relationship with the Middle Eastern people, but also that you don't break the trust.

Once the trust is there, try not to break it.

Make sure you don't break it.

The second one was, so the people from the Middle East came to the French office and for lunch, they had ordered some sandwich and some of the sandwiches had pork, which wasn't, of course, because again, countries in the Middle East are Muslim, and so they don't eat pork, it's as simple as that.

So that was a sort of cultural faux pas, but it's not a big mistake, to be honest.

Like just that you wish that we can flex, like the French people, you can eat beef, you can eat chicken, you can eat other meat sort of things.

So it's good to kind of find this being able to be flexible and find that, okay, we can't bring pork, but we can offer other alternatives.

That sounds like the airplane model where they say, do you have any allergies?

Because they're going to cater to you.

You're going to be the guest on the airplane.

Yes.

So if you have people from a different culture, are you suggesting that we also, if they're coming to our domain, we also ask those types of questions?

Yes.

Imagine you're working with Indians and they are Hindu.

You can't come and offer them beef for lunch.

For those who obviously, the cow is sacred.

Cow is sacred in India, yes.

For me, it's logical.

But it's just small things that you can think about ahead of time and that you know you can adapt when they come.

Imagine they are clients, right?

If you want to win business, you're probably doing that small gesture is probably going to take you a long way.

You are showing to these potential clients that you understand them, that you are putting efforts to understand them, that you are putting efforts in this business relationship.

So for me, it's obvious.

But similarly, in India, you have also a lot of people who don't eat meat at all, who are just vegetarian.

So I just think that whenever, wherever, you can be flexible and doesn't cost you, for me, it doesn't cost me not to eat beef, it's fine.

It doesn't really cost me anything.

I can eat something else.

So if it doesn't cost you anything and you can find that middle point, you know, get into that middle ground, the sweet spot for the two of you, why don't you do it?

I mean, I don't see any contradictions there.

Not only that, like you said, it creates trust.

And when I know that somebody took the time to care about my culture, I'm not just a client and you see dollar signs when you see my face, that goes a long way.

Like that builds the relationship you spoke of earlier.

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

So those are the cultural moments you experienced.

There's a six dimensions model by Khir Tufstade, which we'll just mention the one which is individualism versus collectivism, which basically means you either come from a culture where everybody is individualistic or come from a culture where everybody thinks collectively.

Did you notice some of those differences when you used to work in finance?

Yes.

I just want to build it a bit.

So when we say individualistic, and it's very important, it doesn't mean selfish.

It doesn't mean egoistic.

It doesn't mean it's all about me, me, me and me and my own interests.

It doesn't mean that it's just a way to frame it, but it doesn't, I just want to make sure like you shouldn't be associated with being selfish because it's not true.

And we're not making people feel bad about coming from those cultures.

And you don't want to make people feel bad about coming from those cultures.

Like in individualistic cultures, they prioritize personal autonomy and independence over the group loyalty.

So the key attributes for that are going to be things like personal achievements and personal performance are valued over the group success.

Like it's important for you to perform as an individual in the group.

People in individualistic cultures are expected to take care of themselves.

For example, in France, when you are 18 years old, you are encouraged to become your own adult and thrive as an adult and live home and live your life because there is an emphasis on freedom and self-expression.

The decision making also is based on individual preferences and a lot more on logic.

Let's talk about a few examples of countries that are individualistic.

A lot of them are Western countries and cultures, so the United States of America, United Kingdom, Australia.

These countries are what we call individualistic countries.

Now, if we look at collectivism, as you mentioned earlier, the collectivist cultures, they emphasize the harmony of the group over the individual interest.

So the success is a group success.

You work in order to ensure that the group succeeds, not you as a person is going to succeed alone.

Like it's not about your personal ambitions, basically.

There is also a strong emphasis on family and community.

In some of the collectivist cultures, you will find in the same household, the parents live there, the kids live there, the grandparents also live there, right?

Or you will find your own kids and your grandkids living with you.

So it's all about prioritizing.

Thank you.

The group over the individual.

And decisions are most of the time, they are made on a consensus basis, but with the objective of keeping the group in mind, what is best for the group, not just what's best for me.

And so examples again of collectivist cultures, you've got China, you've got Japan, you've got Mexico.

South Korea.

I remember when I went to teach there, and they talk a lot about the Korean War.

Then there was the Seas Fines 53.

Then they started to build from structures.

Everything was destroyed.

The female president, President Park Geun-hye, former female president, her dad was the president back in those times.

I know today they throw words around like dictator and whatnot.

But the thing is, he got them to build again after the war.

You would work and there'd be certain days when you work to contribute to the government fund to build the country.

It's not your money.

It's let's build Korea now from scratch.

Because we have nothing.

The rice needs to grow, everything.

And so that culture was necessary at the time.

It had to exist in order for it to be what it is today.

I mean, today, obviously, and it can change, because now I think most Korean people just live their lives, like the way you spend, you know, 18 and then you move out.

Some do stay home until they get married, especially the ladies.

But just in general, it was necessary at the time to have the collectivism culture for everybody's survival.

Yes.

I remember somebody explained it to me this way.

So in the United Nations, you have two columns, one for countries that need aid, one for countries that give aid.

So at one moment, South Korea was in the column where countries of countries that need aid, they needed help.

Now they jumped over to the column where they give help, because that's how well they're doing.

So it can change.

And I think depending on the circumstances, maybe it's okay for governments and for societies to rethink and think, are we still doing okay?

Do we need to shift some things right now and maybe go back to doing whatever we want?

Yeah, that's an interesting point, actually.

One, you can compare that with North Korea.

Sometimes I wonder if how much of United States of America influenced South Korea in their...

Transition to a more different culture.

The aid was not also probably a little bit conditioned, because remember, there was also at the time the whole cold war between communism and the model from democracies, especially in the United States of America.

Yes.

And speaking of that as well, when you mentioned that some cultures, you know, you live with a grandma, it makes me question the generational wealth.

Do you create more generational wealth when you are in a collectivism culture?

Let me give an example.

So the Indian population back in South Africa, they have these humongous triple story mansions.

Because what happens is not only do you live with the grandparents, but if you have, say, three siblings, one gets married, they come home with their spouse and they live here in one wing of the house.

And then the other sibling gets married and they do the same thing.

So you have about four families in the same house.

That's why it's huge.

It's a mansion that is so big to accommodate all these different families.

So do you build more generational wealth that way?

Instead of everybody you're 18, go out and find your own studio apartment and find a job at McDonald's.

Do you think that is how sometimes generational wealth is created?

Once you have all your siblings here in this big house, I don't know, I'm asking if anybody has an information.

If everybody lives here instead of renting their own apartments, or because that means all the expenses and everything is in different homes instead of being under one roof.

Do you think they save more money for the next generation that create trust funds?

Because it's obviously less expensive to share than it is to individualistically live.

That's true.

Yes, that's true.

It's an interesting question.

I've seen that phenomenon quite a lot at home.

And what happens is then the next generation, do they talk over the mansion and create the next?

It's just a thought.

Now, let's talk about the model you use with your clients when helping them with their cultural challenges, especially in the workplace.

Yes.

I mean, the framework that I use is, we look at the macro factors, which are the external factors of culture.

Simple things like, what type of political country is that?

Is it socialist?

Is it communist?

Is it a democracy?

Or is what type of political structure that governs that country?

What is the religion of that country, the educational system, the history?

Very important history.

Because when you just spoke about Indian living all together, in order to create and to increase their wealth, I don't have the answer, but the first question that I was wondering is that, is it linked to the fact that in the past, their parents, grandparents or great-grandparents suffered from poverty?

And so, by default, now they are in a moment where they feel that they want to save money in order to build their wealth?

Or is it in relation simply to a collectivist value that is important for the Indian, which is regardless of how much money you earn, regardless of your wealth, we still live all together as a family.

The history behind the decisions they make.

Yes, that's a very good point.

Yeah.

This is the first thing that we want to look at.

And then the second thing is intercultural competencies.

I spoke a little bit about that, which is like trust.

How do you build trust in that culture?

How do you make decision?

How do people perceive time?

Is it a hierarchical or an egalitarian power distance?

So things like that are in relation to building your intercultural competencies.

And then from there, we put together a strategy that will apply for the circumstances, your circumstances.

From that strategy, it's very important that we also work on what you are ready to be flexible on.

Because what you don't want when you're working as an individual and as a professional is that you don't want to feel that you have compromised so much that you don't feel you're authentically yourself.

Right.

And so the idea is, I'm happy to be a leader.

I'm happy to be a leader.

I'm happy to be flexible, but I don't want to lose my own authenticity.

And so it's all this idea of what is it that you feel comfortable with in your behavior, in your way of interacting with other people that you can be flexible on.

From there, then you take action.

And from actions, you get feedback.

And then from feedback, you keep improving and practicing.

Being culturally intelligent is really a skill, like a muscle that you want to build.

You don't build a muscle in theory.

I need to go to the gym.

I need to exercise three times a week.

I need to do strength training.

I need to have the appropriate amount of protein to build the muscle.

So you know it.

You know it as a knowledge part of it.

That's the theory.

But the truth is that for as long as you don't go to the gym, you never build that muscle.

But cultural intelligence is the same thing.

So you need to understand the theory and then you need to apply it.

And the more you're going to go to the gym and follow the right steps, the bigger your muscle.

And it's the same thing for cultural intelligence.

The more you will practice it, the better you will get at it and the more also comfortable and confident you become along the way.

Being curious about other cultures.

Yeah, that's part of the first step.

Yes.

Okay, so those are the leaders.

What would you say to someone who comes from a different culture?

Let's say you come from the Far East and you enter the American workspace because the global workplace is so very diverse now.

You enter the workspace of an American company.

I found that when I was there, usually out of, because respect is like the number one value, usually out of respect, Korean people don't speak unless spoken to, unless asked.

Whereas if you're in the United States, people just speak up.

So if you're in a Zoom call and you're a Korean colleague with Americans, and they're just speaking and nobody calls on you, you run the risk of not sharing your ideas, not raising whatever question you might have had because nobody actually took the time to say, Latifa, do you have anything to say?

How would you then insert yourself and adapt to being now more outspoken, coming from a culture where out of respect, you don't speak unless called on?

Yeah.

So it comes back to the framework that I've just described.

It's not because you're coming from the Far East that it's a different framework.

It's exactly the same thing.

So it's your responsibility as a professional to try to understand what is this culture and this country that I will work in.

What is it that I need to understand about the American way of working?

How can I adapt?

How can I learn all the skills that I need to learn in order to be able to speak up in a meeting?

And understand that it's not because you're spoken at, that you're not asked to speak, that it means that you were trying to exclude you.

It's just that the culture that you are navigating in is in favor of you speaking up for yourself, because you're in a divinistic culture.

And so it's for you to understand that, first of all, so that you don't get offended by it, number one, and then you can think about, okay, so what do I need to do?

What do I need to change in order for me to integrate and be able to speak up?

If the company knows that they have people from different cultures, they have a little bit of responsibility as well to be able to recognize that there are differences in the way people operate in the professional space.

Again, they can bring cultural experts to explain them, okay, well, if you have Korean and Chinese and Japanese in your team, you may want to ask them if they have something to add in a meeting to give them the right to speak.

It goes both ways.

It really goes both ways.

So it's an understanding on both sides, really.

So we must all take the initiative, yes.

Any last words of wisdom on being culturally intelligent?

Yes.

You know, when I started this, it wasn't just about coaching, training people to be culturally intelligent in the workplace.

It goes beyond that because for me, it really is about bridging gaps between cultures.

It's really creating those bridges between people so that people can understand each other, but also so that people can be opened and curious and learn from the beauty and the richness and the attributes that other cultures have that can be also beneficial for you and be able to live in harmony together.

It's really about that.

Of course, I do it for organizations and as a work, as a job, but ultimately, I just want people to be able to live together, value their differences and not point them as a problem.

Let's value our differences and connect to the humanity within us.

Words of wisdom from Latifa Aarab, the leadership coach specializing in being globally, culturally intelligent.

As an expert in the field, she helps leaders with especially diverse workplaces.

Thank you so much for being here today.

I learned so much from you and I'm sure the listeners will as well.

Thank you very much, Roberta.

Thank you again for having me today.

My absolute pleasure.

Would you like our listeners to reach out to you and where?

Yes.

So for anyone who would like to reach out to me, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

My name is Latifa Aarab.

You'll find me as Latifa Aarab, but you can also send me an email at info at compatibleofficial.com, all in one word.

Latifa Aarab, who is on info at compatible.com.

Thank you very much.

Compatibleofficial.

Thank you.com.

I'll put that in the show notes just in case I put it in.

Thank you very much.

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