Speaking and Communicating Podcast

It's also important to have a team that works well together and that respects each other.

And so on a day like this, you know, post-election day, but if I was leading an organization, I would want to create space for people to talk about and process the emotions that they were having.

As a leader, and I think this would be true for any leader, should not take sides and say, I voted for this candidate, or I'm upset that this candidate won.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Nzela.

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Now let's get communicating.

Now let's get communicating with Adam Birnbaum, who is also with me in Chicago.

He's the former CEO and leader turned executive coach.

He's been in many different roles, including in the tech space, and is here to help you with your leadership skills, especially taking care of your team's individual needs outside of work as well, since we know those count.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show.

Hi, Adam.

Hey, Roberta.

Thanks so much for inviting me on to your show.

I'm so excited to be here.

Welcome to the show.

My pleasure to have you here.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

Yeah.

My name is Adam Birnbaum.

I'm an executive coach based in Chicago, Illinois.

I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and prior to getting into executive coaching, I spent time in management consulting at a Fortune 500 company and in a variety of leadership roles at companies of different sizes and stages.

Everything from a bootstrap business to a venture-backed business to a private equity owned business and most recently, a publicly owned business before getting into executive coaching.

Just for timeline purposes, when was your first corporate job?

Yeah, that was in 2005.

That's when I graduated from college at Northwestern University in Evanston up here in the Chicago land area.

And I had my first corporate job, which was in management consulting.

Okay.

When you look from around that time until, as you now do the coaching of leaders, what have you seen are the changes over time that have happened when it comes to leaders and is the workplace really becoming more people focused?

Or is this just some utopia we're hoping for, but it hasn't been a reality yet.

That's a great question.

It has changed, definitely.

There's a Harvard Business Review article that, I'm blanking on the name of the title, but I'm happy to share a link to the article with you afterwards, if you want to share with your listeners, that actually analyzed the top leadership competencies 20 to 30 years ago versus what they are today.

And what they found was that previously there was more of a top-down leadership approach where there was a lot of direction given, and this is what you need to do, and employees were expected to show up and complete the work that was provided to them.

And that was certainly part of the experience that I had.

Today, it's very different.

In addition to bottom-down leadership, there's a lot more top-up input.

And in connecting the relationships between employees, the teams that they're on, and the leaders that run the organization, there's certainly a higher degree of, if I find, empathy, emotional intelligence, and responsiveness to understanding what employees need to be able to be most successful on the job.

At least that's what I see from the organizations who I think of most have done the best job of adapting to this new environment of what employees are expecting from leaders to be able to do their best work.

I started work about 10 years prior to that in 1995, and you're right when you say, we used to just listen to our leaders who say do this.

And I always say the reason is because there was no Google.

There is no way I could have thought I know more than my boss.

He's been here longer.

He has the engineering degree.

So that's why I got to listen to him.

But now, because information is everywhere, that's why you can have someone who's training one with a better idea than the boss.

Yeah, that's a really great point.

It's funny that you bring that up because when you asked your question, immediately where my brain went was, oh, the Internet has really changed the world.

And to your point, it has changed the dynamics of leaders and how they work with their teams.

And I think now, 2024, November, as we meet for this call today, there's a new revolution that I see coming in how employees can generate value for the companies that they work at, which is through artificial intelligence, tools like JATGBT and some of the other big AI tools out there, even more are democratizing the ability to get information and to be able to act on that information.

Right now, if I wanted to, I could go into JATGBT, pull an annual report from any Fortune 500 company and say, if you were the CEO of this business, what would you do strategically over the next three to five years to improve the growth of this company?

JATGBT would take that content and be able to spit something out that is getting better and better in terms of a quality of content to be able to pass master with the leadership team or even up to a board.

Yes.

And as a leader, you do listen for other team members' inputs.

But as they say, the decision lies with you.

So, do you have a strategy when you coach these executives on how to make the best decision?

Is that even something you discuss with your clients?

I discuss it a lot, especially because when you first start working in a professional job, the decisions are typically more clear.

There's less ambiguity, there's more direction, and it's usually easier to decide, make decisions.

As you move up in your professional career and into higher level leadership roles, there's a lot more information, so it's hard to figure out which information is the most relevant.

You don't have time to digest all the information because there's multiple people under you, each who have their own information sets, and data becomes less and less clear because you're looking for higher level metrics, which are typically sometimes more difficult to architect within a company.

And so the ability to assess decisions, to make the best decision, is really important.

And I think that the way to do it is to, first, understand what information is most relevant.

Second, really dig deep into the core issues that are at play with respect to that information that might impact a decision.

Three, to start to build out options.

And I find that leaders will often rush through the option process.

Like they might come up with two options, A or B, and then start going into evaluation mode.

And I always encourage leaders to really think broadly and try to figure out, you know, what's the third option and what's the fourth option?

Because sometimes the third or the fourth option is better than the first two that people think about.

And then it's really making the decision.

I think that a lot of leaders, even if the buck stops with them and they need to make the decision, will solicit the input of their team, understanding that bringing multiple perspectives into a decision is often going to lead to a better outcome.

And then it's up to the leader to make the final call and start to rally the team to execute on whatever that decision was.

Yes, because the buck does stop with him, even though he will gather the input of his team members.

You mentioned emotional intelligence earlier, and we've had several discussions about the topic on this show.

As you said, today is November 2024.

It's actually a day after the election results in the United States.

So as leaders, first of all, as we mentioned, the workplace is becoming more people focused.

What kind of culture, when it comes to topics outside of the work scope, what kind of culture is best to create because this is now where more people, at least if you want the best out of your people, do take care of their emotional needs as well.

America is very poor alert.

The rest of us in the world, we only think that.

So you have people divided down the middle.

You have team members supporting one candidate, team members supporting another.

So the candidate that has won, obviously those team members are happy.

But the ones who are on the other side of the coin, this morning somebody said, I had to log off the Zoom call at work because they are celebrating and I'm not.

What should the leader do?

Should they not discuss it at work?

What is the best way to handle this?

Great, wonderful, timely question to be asking.

And I don't know that I've got a easy answer to it, but I can speak to some ideas.

You use the word polarized, that there are countries polarized and that there's a divide and people are on different sides.

And I think that's a great way to contextualize what's going on in the country.

At the same time, if you think about how companies are structured and organized, there's a mission, there's a vision that they're working towards.

There's some kind of impact that that company is trying to have in the world through products and services.

And teams work, they're able to deliver that value to customers or clients or people because the team is able to get aligned and rallied around a set of goals and a mission and a vision.

And so the idea of unity in company cultures is very important, not at the expense of diversity of thought and perspective.

It's important to have people who can bring different points of view.

But ultimately, going back to decision making, at some point you need to make a decision and have the team rally around that.

And so the idea of politics coming into the workspace, and there have been other examples in previous years of big divisive topics in the news that have come into the workspace.

It's really challenging because on one hand, and this going back to your idea around emotional intelligence, it is really important to create an environment where employees feel safe, where they feel like they can be themselves without being judged.

And it's also important to, at the end of the day, be able to have a team that works well together and that respects each other.

And so on a day like this, post-election day, and this is where maybe I start to move into opinion.

But if I was leading an organization, I would want to create space for people to talk about and process the emotions that they were having.

And I would probably opt to do that in one-on-ones.

And certainly, if the political topics came up in a team meeting, as a leader, and I think this would be true for any leader, should not take sides and say, I voted for this candidate or I'm upset that this candidate won.

Because they, as a leader, will be setting a tone and a culture of division within their team, which is one of the worst things that you could do, both for the individual and the team, in creating a safe work environment, where people can do their best work and work towards goals.

I think the point of individually discussing it, especially right now, if the topic does come up, might be the way to go.

Because I just don't see a way out if everybody is in the courtroom and they have to agree with me.

Because one thing I've learned since being in America, I'm South African.

We also have divided politics of views.

However, here's the difference I've noticed.

I can sit with a South African with a different political view and we can chat even though I know, and they'll tell me, yeah, I'm gonna vote for the other one.

Oh no, I'm not going that direction.

But we can still get along as South Africans.

It's the first time that I come to a country where people haven't spoken to family members, have lost friendships, hence we use the word polarize.

It really goes deep if you don't agree with the other person politically.

And I'm just very curious as to how it plays out in corporate America and how leaders handle this.

Yeah, it's really interesting to bring in an example from another culture, from your culture, because to your point, it doesn't have to be this way.

There's other ways to discuss issues, whether they're work issues or political issues or any other type of issue that you want to talk about.

In the US, for whatever reason, there are issues that can really divide and polarize folks.

I think as a leader, the thing that you need to remember is you're always on stage.

People are always looking at you to understand what type of behaviors aligns with the culture and what type of behavior doesn't align with the company culture.

I think that's really the most important thing is recognizing that when you speak up as a leader, whether it's in a formal setting like in a team meeting, or even if you're at the lunch table with a bunch of people and more socializing, that what you say really matters and that people who are more junior to that leader are going to be reading into what you say and acting accordingly based on what they take away from what is acceptable.

As you go up in an organization, especially you get up to the CEO position, that magnification of behavior becomes even stronger, and it becomes even more important for you to be intentional and deliberate with how you show up and to be able to model the type of behavior that you think is going to be best for the company and best for the employees.

Absolutely.

The self-awareness part, which we only say especially when it comes to communication.

You can think, I'm a great communicator, but how does Adam experience me?

We'll then determine if I'm a great communicator or not.

So as a leader, for instance, you had so many different positions in different industries.

What were some of the lessons or the self-awareness moments you have?

If you can just give us one where you realized, oh, I thought this was how it's done and I had to learn or make this shift in my leadership style.

Great question.

This connects to something we talked about earlier actually, which is the idea of a more directive leadership style that you and I grew up with, where somebody said something and you were supposed to do it.

When I initially got into leadership, I thought that that was still my role as the leader, that I was supposed to look to my manager for guidance and to take action based on what they shared.

And to some extent, that's true, right?

If you're a chief operating officer or company, your boss is the CEO.

The CEO is going to have opinions on what you should be focused on in your role and you should take the input.

But one of the things that changed for me is that my focus became less about how to please my manager and how to get a good performance review.

And it became more about what do I think is the right thing for the company?

What do I think is the right thing for the company?

And if it differs from the perspective of my manager, how can we have a respective discussion about it to talk through our differing perspectives and viewpoints to get to an aligned view?

That was a really big shift for me.

The idea of focusing more on the company and the employees and what's best for them instead of what does my manager want me to do.

And interestingly, what I found is I transitioned into that mode of thinking was that my managers respected me more.

They trusted me more because they knew I wasn't just a yes person, that I wasn't going to just do what they said because they asked me, but that I was going to think critically about what they're asking of me.

And to really assess whether that was, in fact, the right thing to do for the business.

That's still something that I find, especially first time leaders or new leaders, people are new to leadership.

I find that that's an area that they bump up against and something that they really need to take time to learn and digest to be able to make that transition and shift into what I see as much more effective leadership.

Critical thinking, one of the very key soft skills.

And also, like you said earlier, at the end of the day, it's about the vision and the mission of the company.

So when you thought what's best for the company, that was the focus rather than people pleasing my boss and whatnot.

Right.

And then back to leadership as well.

You said that you like to develop people.

When you have a team and you're a leader, how do you know who needs what right now?

I think the one-on-one is a really important tool.

For leaders, to be able to understand who needs what right now.

And I think a lot of leaders don't think enough about how to structure that time and how to structure the relationship with their employees to be able to surface that information.

Some people are very comfortable sharing what they need, what their challenges are.

Other people see you as their manager.

They see you as somebody who's writing their performance review and might be less open to sharing what's really going on for them.

And so I think creating a sense of psychological safety, which can sometimes be developed by showing up in your leadership position as a human being and being comfortable with being appropriately vulnerable, meaning not sharing everything that's going on in your life, but maybe sharing some challenges that you're facing in your role.

Maybe sometimes even asking your direct report for their perspective on a challenge that you're working through, can be one way to develop that trust that can lead to a more open conversation and relationship.

Another way can be by following through on your commitments to your direct report so that they know you're really there for them.

And a third way can be setting up time for informal social get-togethers.

Before the days of COVID, that meant going out for coffee or for lunch.

For companies that are remote, sometimes it takes some intentionality, which might mean instead of just taking a couple of minutes at the beginning of a one-on-one to catch up more generally having a virtual lunch with your employee and sitting down for 30 minutes or an hour and having a, we're not going to talk about work role, we're just going to talk about non-workings and really getting to know each other.

I think if you can develop that foundation of trust, the employee trusting you and the employee feeling like you trust them, then all of the information that needs to be surfaced can be surfaced.

But without that in place, that's where you start to run into issues.

Do you have any clients that you coach who say, I accepted the position because of the perks, but I wasn't sure or even I know I don't like people.

But I took the job because I've always wanted to climb the corporate ladder, and they've had to work on their people skills.

Yeah, definitely.

I think that different people have different narratives about what's possible and what's not possible in their life.

For leaders who are chasing the corporate ladder and thinking about perks, I find that there's usually some sort of internal narrative that was probably developed in them when they were very young, maybe in watching their parents and what their relationship with work was.

The narrative is something like, work is about working and it's not about people.

I just need to go in and get things done, and that's what's going to help me be successful.

Or it could be a narrative like, the best jobs don't necessarily have the best people, and you should always go after the best job.

And Praher says that over people.

So there's these different narratives, personal narratives that can come into play when you're very young.

And a lot of people don't even know that they're running in the background, but it is coloring their perspective and their point of view on opportunities that come up and influencing how they move into roles.

I have certainly worked with clients who have difficulty with emotional intelligence in relating to people, who have believed that the best way to get things done is to focus on the work and not focus on the relationships.

What I end up doing with them is setting up experiments with them to say, well, why don't you sit down for lunch with this person?

Or why don't you try creating some time at the beginning of a team meeting, five minutes for everybody to share something that they did over the weekend, and see what it does for your relationship, see how it impacts trust.

Invariably, as these leaders start to practice skills related to emotional intelligence and connection and empathy and relationship building, they see the returns very quickly.

They see how people start to open up, how they start to become more committed, how they start to surface the real issues that are going on for them.

That starts to create a self-reinforcing effect where the leader gets more and more comfortable stepping more and more outside of their comfort zone in getting to a point where they are fully embracing relationship building as a skill in the workplace to be able to build productive work relationships with their team.

Because the thing about relationship building is that usually some leaders are accused of thinking, if I build relationships, I need to work on that skill for the purposes of building relationships with clients because they pay us money or for the purposes of building relationships with my seniors, the C-suite.

They sometimes neglect the part where they, or maybe they think, what am I supposed to do for me?

I don't need to build that relationship.

They just need to get the work done.

Yeah, I've seen that as well.

And I think that the best leaders recognize as they progress in their careers, that their job becomes less about getting work done, and more about building a team that can get work done, and setting up the conditions for that team to get work done.

And when you make that transition, the relationship part becomes very important because you realize the relationship is critical to be able to get things done through your team.

And the more you're able to get things done through your team, the higher you can move in your own role, you can take on more responsibility from your manager, who can take on more responsibility from their manager.

And that's how companies grow.

It's by everybody leveling up and being able to take on more responsibility.

The first thing is that a leader needs to make that shift to realizing, my job isn't to get work done, it's to build a team, high-performing team that can get work done.

Any last words of wisdom?

Anything that you felt I should have asked that you wanted to share with our listeners today?

You asked a lot of great questions.

I don't know that there's anything immediately coming to mind, but maybe I'll just double down on something that I talked about briefly, which I think is really important for all leaders at any level, which is to investigate your personal narratives, investigate your assumptions, because the assumptions that you're making are impacting your perspective, and that's what creates blind spots for leaders.

And when leaders don't know what their blind spots are, then they don't know how to mitigate those, and that's where people start to get into trouble as they develop as a leader.

Going through the process of assessing your personal narratives and uncovering blind spots, there's a couple of ways that I think work well.

One is to pick up good books on leadership that speak to that specifically.

There's also good books in the psychology space that speak to the idea of personal narratives.

And the third thing is working with either a great manager who can uncover things like that, or an executive coach.

As an executive coach, that's a lot of the work that I do is helping people understand how they see the world, so that they can build their self-awareness and be able to make better decisions that take into account their biases and ways that they experience what's happening around them in ways that they don't initially see.

That ultimately makes them a more effective leader.

Effective indeed.

Words of wisdom from Adam Birnbaum, the Horton MBA graduate who's been a leader in various industries, including software engineering, the coach for executive leaders, who was an executive leader himself.

Thank you so much, Adam, for being with us today.

Thank you.

I loved this conversation.

I really appreciate it.

I had a blast as well.

I'm glad that you were here.

Before we go, please tell us where we can find you online and share your website details as well.

My website is www.clearpath.group.

Clear path is the two words, clear, C-L-E-A-R, path, P-A-T-H,.

group.

Or they can reach out to me on my email, which is adam at clearpath.group.

And we'd love to connect with any of your listeners who want to follow up from this podcast.

Absolutely.

clearpath.group or email adam at clearpath.group.

Thank you so much for being on the show today.

I really had a blast as well.

Me too.

Thanks, Roberta.

Take care.

My absolute pleasure.

Thank you for joining us on the Speaking and Communicating Podcast once again.

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