Speaking and Communicating Podcast

I have a Dolphin student right now.

Her parents are kind of thinking about what sports she should do.

And I recommend, I'm like, try basketball or volleyball.

The parents initially put her in tennis, but tennis is a solo sport.

Dolphins like being around people, being part of a team, leading a team.

And I think parents can do that too.

Just look at how your kids are, what they like inside and what they value, and push them in those directions.

welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.

Now let's get communicating with Eric Gee, think Myers-Briggs, is a personality typing life coach.

He's the bestselling author of The Power of Personality, and is here to talk to us about how deeply understanding your personality can influence your career choices and strengthen your relationships.

And before I go any further, please welcome him to the show.

Hey, Eric.

Hi Roberta.

Thank you for having me.

Hi.

I'm glad that you're here.

welcome.

It's my pleasure.

Please introduce yourself to our listeners.

I mean, you did it very well actually.

Yeah.

I'm a life coach.

I wrote a book on how to read people better using a personality typing methodology that I developed maybe over the course of like 20 years of doing this.

And I owned an education company for about a decade.

And that's where I really got into the nitty gritty.

We would have about a thousand students a year.

Not that we experimented on them, but just through observation and knowing that every student was different, and not only every student, but every teacher was different, we started understanding more of the personal dynamics between people.

And basically, like your show is about, it's all about communicating, right?

It's really hard to communicate with someone if you don't really understand the language that they speak, because we all have different values, and due to those values, we communicate differently.

That is absolutely true.

We call it the Platinum Rule.

Communicate with Eric the way he prefers to be communicated to.

Right.

You want to speak someone's language, right?

It's almost like you're forcing your language on them, and that never works really well.

Speaking from someone who only really knows one language, that doesn't work so well.

Which is interesting, because I'm South African, so we speak various languages in my country, English being common, because that's how the countries run.

But I lived in South Korea, so I picked up a little bit of Korean, and now I'm in the US.

That's awesome.

I'm envious.

Yeah, I admire people who can speak different.

Because like I said, I'm not joking.

I speak one language.

I mean, my Spanish is okay, but for the most part, I'm pretty much stuck on English.

Yeah, it's impressive.

If you grew up in the States, you'll be like, why do I need another language?

You know what I mean?

So we can't really blame you.

But the thing is, even when you speak the same language, you find that, as you said, when you understand people better, you even communicate in the way that not only suits them better, but they can decode the message the way you intended, because you communicate in the way that they prefer.

Right.

I mean, I guess people, soft skills, like you were saying before, are even more important than what comes on the outside.

I guess the language, the actual language, is like the external part of it.

But we're all human, right?

So there's some internal intuition that we can use to communicate even if we're not using words.

Right.

So you've been doing this for about 20 years.

So the question becomes, if personality tests like Myers-Briggs were around long before that, what made you think, wait a minute, I need to investigate this a little further.

So I was actually a big fan of Myers-Briggs.

You know, growing up as a kid, I always felt a little different.

So personality typing and the idea of studying personality types was very appealing to me, because like, oh, okay, that's why I have different values than this person.

So I studied Myers-Briggs quite a bit and the neogram.

And what I found was a lot of the time there were issues that didn't always work with the students that I was working with.

I think a big one that people mentioned a lot with Myers-Briggs is you're either extroverted on this side or introverted on this side.

But what I found is, and a lot of complaints come from people who don't like personality typing because they're like, well, I'm extroverted in this case, but I'm introverted in this case.

So this is all garbage, right?

Because it doesn't work.

I can't disagree with that because that's true.

Like I found that myself, I was like more extroverted now going in certain situations, but I could also be very reserved in certain situations.

So really it comes to like, what is the determining factor?

And I think a lot of times the determining factor is basically what we value.

So my personality typing methodology is more of a value based approach.

It focuses a lot more on not necessarily what we're doing on the outside, but why we're doing it on the inside.

And I think if you go that route, then you can totally understand, yeah, if I value something, then I'm probably going to be a lot more outgoing and aggressive towards that particular thing.

And if I don't value something more than the next person, then I'll probably let it go and be more differential.

So that's values determining whether you're extroverted in certain situations or not, which then begs the question, we usually talk about public speaking as well on the show.

And we find it interesting that a person can be the life of the party.

But when you say, okay, stand on stage and give a presentation, they freeze.

So where's the life of the party in that situation?

You know, that's a great example because my personality typing methodology splits people up into four groups.

And then within those four groups are four animal types.

So obviously, four times four is 16.

But one of the groups, their big focus and their value is visceral excitement.

How am I feeling on the outside?

What's coming into me?

What am I hearing?

What am I seeing?

Am I like enjoying the sensations that are coming into me?

Or am I not enjoying those?

And that would kind of be like that life of the party person, you know, like the same person who does body shots on spring break in Cabo is not the same person who will go up on a stage and maybe preach or talk about, go make, do a TED talk, you know, those are very, very different things.

Whereas if you have another personality pack that focuses, let's say, on information, I call them Smiths.

And their value, of course, is just taking in new information.

They might be totally comfortable doing a TED talk on global warming and the effects on our environment.

But they probably wouldn't want to like party hard in Cabo.

Probably not.

So when you get started on this, what were some of the observations that you made, depending on how long that you did this experiment and studying people's personalities?

Because then the question is, if I had done this test 10 years ago, would I have had different answers?

Because I was a different person back then?

You know, I say this a lot.

Everyone always, they don't like the idea that people can't change, but I'm always of the belief that we don't really change.

We grow, right?

And so we're either gonna grow into a better version of ourself or a worse version of ourself.

That's why it's so important to figure us out.

So oftentimes when people say, oh, but I'm really different than I was 10 years ago, it just might be that they're growing into that version of themselves or they're finding out more about themself that they didn't know.

I find that a lot, especially with kids, if you have two parents who are very different than their child and you have a child that has a personality that's a little bit more prone to assimilating, then they might spend a great deal of their childhood thinking something's wrong with them and being forced to kind of adjust to what their parents tell them they should be.

And maybe it's not even until adulthood or even like in their 40s where they're just like, oh, you know what, I'm actually really different and I need to get closer to who I really am as a person.

So you grow into who you've always been, into those values you spoke about earlier?

Yeah, or grow into the worst version of yourself, right?

I think the fun part of personality types is everyone's always like, what's the best one?

And I'm like, there's no best one, right?

You know, there are strengths and there are weaknesses.

And generally speaking, the weaknesses come from the strengths and vice versa.

For every person who's really organized and structured and responsible, their weak point will be maybe they're a little too rigid, they're not particularly flexible, you know, they're a little bit more authoritative in a bad way.

So I think our strengths definitely derive from our weaknesses.

So there's no good type.

The best type is being who you are, whatever your type really is.

Absolutely.

Be who you are.

It's funny when you talk about how a child can have a different personality and the parents are trying to mold them into something.

I find that sometimes, I don't know how it is in other cultures, but in African culture, usually, the first thing they look for is this child looks like either the mom or the dad, or a combination of both physically.

And then as you grow, they start to say, oh, you have a temper like your father, or you are kind like your mother.

So they always try to keep picking on which parent whose traits that you seem to emulate, right?

Right.

So if you are trying to just be who you are, do you think in those circumstances, sometimes kids may feel the pressure to be, like I said, to be something that they're not, and then discover in their 40s that, hey, wait a minute, I'm a very different person.

Yes.

So I mentioned there are four, I call them packs, right?

Because they're animal types within each pack.

One of the packs actually makes up, I'd say about, of course, I'm pulling these numbers in their approximate, about 45-50 percent of the population.

So that's a large portion of people.

So generally, that value system gets really pushed on people and it's great.

They value safety and security.

So when you think about how our civilizations are created, a lot of it's based on keeping us safe, making sure we have enough food, do we have enough resources, making sure the water and the plumbing flows properly, the toilets work, that kind of thing.

Although the creature comforts.

So if you have two parents like that, then of course they're going to kind of expect their child to be like that.

But if their child is one of the more, for lack of a better term, minority types, then it's going to be a tough situation because they're going to feel kind of weird.

And I think the natural instinct for parents be like, oh yeah, my kid is like a chip off the old block.

Or if he's asked someone like, are you like your mom or dad?

And a lot of people will probably say, not really.

I didn't like them because of this or that.

Maybe on the surface, our habits are the same.

But I feel like maybe deep down inside, the values are different and that's where it shows.

Back to values again.

Okay.

So tell us about these four packs.

So I break it down to something that people can understand.

Also so that you can understand why there are different percentages in the population.

Imagine a medieval village back in the day.

You would have gatherers, you'd have hunters, you'd have shamans, and you'd have smiths, like the blacksmith, right?

So when you think about it, what pack would you need the most of?

You need the most gatherers because it really only takes one shaman to tell you that it's going to rain or when it's going to rain, but you need like all the gatherers, like sow the fields, gather the crops.

And the same for hunters.

You do need a large percentage of hunters, even though you really only need one or two blacksmiths making the weapons, right?

Now hunters, there are a lot of them, but of course, hunting is a risky proposition, so some of them die.

So thus, you get like about half the population are gatherers, maybe a third are hunters, and then the poor shamans and smiths kind of get pushed over here to the side.

And they kind of fit those roles now when you think about it.

Like our shaman types tend to be like diplomatic, they tend to be kind of the soul of the community.

And there aren't that many of them.

And then you have your gather types, the backbone of the society, right?

There are cops, there are teachers, there are the construction workers, the engineers, the people who keep society together.

And I think in communicating, it's really important to bring it back to that point.

If you understand working with students, if the gatherer values safety and security, and they're mainly a lot of teachers are that type.

But if you have a student that is a hunter and they value excitement, those are two competing values, right?

Anyone who's ever taught kindergarten or been around kindergarten knows like half the class are like listening politely to the teacher and waiting for instruction and about a third of them are just like running around and just grabbing things and throwing things.

I think it's important to know how to communicate with those kids because you tell them you need to be careful or you need to settle down, that definitely does not register.

I learned when I was teaching because I taught kindergarten up till middle school.

During my kindergarten years, it comes to a point where you realize battle versus the war.

What are you going to win?

At the end of the day, if they do their coloring, if they do their drawing, if they do crossword, whatever it is, even if they do it standing, just be grateful for that victory.

You know what I mean?

Just have them run in place.

Exactly.

If you force them to sit down, their personalities, then they're not going to like the coloring.

Then you're not going to get the result you were looking for.

And I think it can translate to the workplace as well.

If a person does not fit in, whether it's a team structure, whatever it is, the personality doesn't fit, they're not going to be as productive as they could potentially be in the right space.

Oh yeah.

And it's based on what they value, right?

If someone values taking risks and the excitement that comes with it, and as a kid you're telling them, no, you shouldn't take those risks.

When they grow older, they're never going to have learned how to take the proper risks.

They might be prone to reckless behavior or you might just totally take their confidence away.

And we need people who take smart risks, right?

Otherwise, how are we going to have firefighters, right?

Like all those people who do the jobs that...

How the world has been created by those who take risks?

How's the stuff that we enjoy?

Yeah.

Yeah, and if you tell them as a kid, you shouldn't do that, be careful, then we're just taking away their greatest strength and we're taking that power away from them.

So you now have these four facts that you mentioned.

What have you realized when it comes to your students, when they take the test?

Is there any change in their decision making process because they've gotten to know themselves better?

Or they just think, oh yeah, I've always been that way?

It's definitely a difference and it obviously depends on the students.

A lot of the students I coach tend to be part of the minority packs.

And maybe it's because they work with me so well, so they stick with me.

A lot of my students, I coach them for years because deep down inside, they realize, oh, there wasn't anything wrong with me.

Just different than, I guess, the majority of my classmates.

So, this is super helpful because this person can coach me and tear me up to where they understand what I'm coming from versus someone just telling me, no, this is what everybody else does, so I should do this.

The most common thing I see, I've been telling this story a lot, and this is the danger of you don't know yourself.

My cousin's son, I was talking to him over New Year, so that was nine months ago, about what he wanted to do now because he's just graduated pharmacy school.

He's like, well, as long as I don't have to stay in the same place all day long, then I'll be fine.

I'm like, you should graduate pharmacy school.

Pharmacists generally stay in one place.

It's the pharmacy.

You know, the funny thing is when he started pharmacy school like three years ago, my thought process was like, oh, that might not be the best job for him based on his personality, but once again, none of my business.

Did you ask him just in general, no serious discussion, what was the motivation for choosing pharmacy out of anything else?

Well, I didn't have to ask him because I knew what his motivation was, because I know my cousin.

And my cousin is a pharmacist and her husband, so his father is a doctor.

And they're both gatherers, so gatherers are all about safety and security.

So I know it all comes with good intentions, right?

They're just like, no, we want our kids, they'll be able to take care of themselves, be able to make a living so we don't have to worry about him.

And that's totally cool.

The point is he can make a living taking chances.

So he's a hunter.

So hunters like the excitement and they have no problem hustling.

They're the typical hustlers, right?

I want to be rewarded for doing well, and if I don't do well, then I don't deserve to be rewarded, and I don't mind taking that chance.

And so what I recommended to him was maybe pursuing pharmaceutical sales because that's definitely more in line with something that he would probably like, like being able to travel, moving back and forth.

In the same place, like you said, yes.

You have to hustle, but he has no problem hustling.

Where another type might be like, well, I don't want to take that risk.

I don't mind being in the same place and just steadily doing my job and doing it well, and working, building up from there.

So your motivation versus your values for choosing whatever career path you choose.

Yeah, I think the way that we value things definitely dictates what we really want to do versus what people tell us.

I think most of the time when we think of careers, people are like, oh, what do I like to do on the outside?

Oh, I like to draw, so maybe I should do graphic design.

As opposed to thinking, why do you like to draw?

Like if the reason you like to draw, let's say you like to write satirical comics that satirize politics, then strangely enough, maybe a career in graphic design where you're having to market other people's ideas is not necessarily the best job, but maybe a political job where you're really pushing your own ideas and getting there might be the best job, even though those two things seem totally different.

The one is you are more the creative type, you have your own ideas.

If that's your personality, rather choose that versus just taking somebody's ideas and bringing it to life.

I mean, I think when the graphic design side, you have ideas, but yeah, I guess they're expressing someone else's, right?

So a graphic designer would be like a hunter.

Their focus is excitement, they're really good at knowing their outward surroundings, whereas maybe like on the political side of a political satirist, they're more about the ideas and less about what they see.

Right.

So the next question becomes, what is your personality type and how did you decide that this is the kind of work you're going to do based on discovering who you are and understanding your personality?

Well, I'm a shaman type.

That would be my path.

Specifically, I'm a baboon.

That's my animal type.

And I always bring that up because sometimes people don't like their animal type.

They're like, a beaver.

I don't want to be a beaver.

And I was just like, hey, man, I'm a baboon.

That's not the most flattering animal, you know.

They're just known for like showing their butts and stuff that people.

Oh, my goodness.

You know, I mean, people get foxes and they're like, okay, I like a fox.

I'm cool.

Yeah, everyone knows that.

Yeah, everyone knows that a fox.

First person you think of is like the Bill Clinton type or James Bond, you know, or Han Solo, like smooth record producer.

But I'm a baboon and knowing that my strengths were like my use of my voice, literally and figuratively, our value system is based on understanding ourselves and helping other people understand themselves and really projecting it out there.

And knowing that helped me go like, Oh, this is something that I just genuinely enjoy doing.

Like it never feels like work, right?

I think when they say when you what you do is fun and doesn't feel like work, it's coming close to something that you really value because it doesn't feel like a chore.

It's not everyone's dream.

We all want to be in the type of work that doesn't feel like work that we enjoyed so much.

You know how they sometimes say, what would you do if you didn't get paid?

If money was no object, those types of things, those types of careers.

Yeah, no, I mean, and it's unfortunately, some people don't have that luxury.

But the nice thing about personality types is that let's say you have to do a job that's a backbreaking job.

Let's say agricultural work.

A lot of people don't have the luxury to not have to do that.

Knowing your personality at least knows what your values are.

If you're a gatherer and you value safety and security, community is really important.

So at least if you have to do a job like that, it's important to bond with the people you're working with and create a really tight-knit group of people, because at least that will be a good way, I'll say pass the day, but to really get some kind of good feelings about what you're doing, even though clearly it's physically laborious.

Your values again.

So here's the thing, just before our discussion, I took the test.

Oh, can I guess?

No, I don't have to guess.

I just like that.

This is all right.

Can I ask one question?

Please go ahead.

Why did you start doing a podcast?

What was your main impetus for starting it?

My main motivation for the podcast was using my experiences to make others, especially professionals, aware that it's like, we were not taught this at school, so I want to bring it to your attention.

So I want to make you aware that being smart is not enough.

You need to add the communication and soft skills to accelerate.

It's like sounding a warning type of thing.

How were you as a student?

Ask any of my teachers, they love me.

There were times when I was the first in my grade.

There were times when I was first in my class.

I was a good student, always did my homework.

Barely ever in trouble.

And with my parents as well, like I was never a troublesome teenager even.

I might get this wrong, but I'm just gonna go for it and guess.

I'm guessing a dolphin.

Oh my goodness.

Did I get it right?

I got it right?

All right.

I'm complimenting myself on the back.

That's why everyone has a video.

Yeah.

So out of 60 animals you really guessed from that?

I am a dolphin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and the way I do the test, I have a test on my site obviously.

But of course, my thing is like the way I wrote the book was trying to teach people to be the test.

Because at the end of the day, a test is just a test, right?

Like it's not customized for each individual person.

And the book, of course, teaches you the methodology, so you can just adjust and ask certain questions.

That's why I asked a couple of those questions, just to kind of get a feel.

But a dolphin is a shaman as well, so we're in the same pack.

Wow.

Here's the thing about a dolphin for me.

When the results came out, I said you're a dolphin.

I'm like, this is really weird because you know how Mariah carry everything for her as a butterfly, butterfly jewelry, butterfly.

For me, I've had dolphin earrings, dolphin bracelet, asked any of my kids that I taught before.

Teacher, what's your favorite animal?

Dolphin.

Wow, that's cool.

Like every single time without fail.

Here's the funny part about that.

When I read the description, so when I was growing up, you know how kids get asked at first grade, what do you want to be when you grow up?

And I said, I wanted to be a teacher.

I said, never.

You're too smart.

They're poor.

Never ever think about being a teacher.

So I went to study business and I had a corporate career in South Africa.

But guess what I did in South Korea for the last decade?

Back to the teacher that I always wanted to be.

Because that's what makes you happy, right?

Right.

That was my happiest.

That's right.

Even here doing the podcast for me, it's not teaching.

I want to call it teaching, but it's more like, hey, did you guys know this is happening?

Let's learn this together.

Let's do this together.

When they described that with the dolphin result that I got, I was like, whoa.

I'm so glad.

I think what pushed me towards Shaman is, I mean, obviously your whole podcast is about communicating and soft skills and shamans generally speaking, they are the best at soft skills, under knowing people, reading people, like modulating your behavior in order to best help this person.

Like you said, you have to adjust, you have to treat people differently.

Dolphins tend to in leadership positions, that's why they make great teachers.

They don't necessarily think when they're leading, this is the way we should do things and it's my job to tell people this is how you do it.

It's more like, okay, how is this person going to grow and what's the best way for them to grow?

How is this person going to grow?

What's the best way for them to grow?

Then they just go to each person and then they just adjust and they work with each person differently based on what helps that individual, which is a really unique way to lead and a great way, I think.

Obviously, if you're in the army and you're in battle, you probably can't do that method.

Not so much.

It's cool.

We need different leadership styles for different things.

But if you're a teacher and you're trying to help people grow, emotionally, academically, intellectually, that's probably a better way than just being that drill sergeant type.

Say, look, this is how you add.

I'm going to teach you how to add.

I'm going to teach you how to subtract.

I also do a math.

I've always done that since high school because I used to love math at school.

What I find is, I'm a straight A student, math is my struggle.

I always say the problem with math is every kid learns differently.

A math teacher, bless them, they only got 40 minutes with 30 kids in the classroom.

They're not going to individually teach a kid how they learn math.

That's what I do.

Once I've worked with a kid like two or three times, they do it on their own because I help them understand the way their brain understands math.

They leave me alone afterwards, they do it on their own.

Yes, that's my dolphin personality.

I always used to tell my teachers when I had my education company, if you teach everything that you know to your students, then you're limiting them because that's not your job to teach them everything you know, it's your job to empower them so then they can learn for themselves because the next generation will always have the advantage over us.

I mean, the Internet now, gosh, I wish I had the Internet when I was growing up.

It's like, I tell my students and they hate that and I also hate it because it makes me feel old.

But they can't picture a world where there was no Internet.

They're like, Eric, I can't even imagine you growing up without Internet.

You know how when you start texting, when you do the text like this, and then they're like, wait, who texts like that?

You text like this, right?

Then I'm like, well, before we had these phones.

Yeah, the flip phones, you got to press the button.

So then based on this example, especially using my results, what can parents do in molding their children?

Like I said, first grade, I knew I wanted to be a teacher.

I've come full circle now in my 40s, but I took a different path because I listened to those who had my best interests at heart.

Right.

I think a lot of parents think on the external, right?

Oh, my kid likes math and they're good at math.

Okay, what job uses math?

Okay, maybe an engineer.

Yeah, right.

They just automatically think that as opposed to like why does my child like this?

What's the reason for them doing things?

For you, why did you like teaching?

Same thing that you like teaching now and doing the podcast.

It's like you're teaching people and connecting them with their true self and how best to interact with the people around them.

That can also translate to a lot of different kinds of jobs, not just teaching.

Oh, I have a dolphin student right now who I'm coaching.

And even something like sports, her parents are kind of thinking about what sports she should do.

And I recommend, I'm like, well, I think you should maybe try basketball or volleyball.

The parents initially put her in tennis, but tennis is a solo sport.

It's one-on-one.

It's a lot of working on individual drills by yourself, because she's a girl.

And, you know, when you think tennis, you think Serena Williams, right?

Great, right?

Of course, she's awesome.

My student probably doesn't have Serena Williams personality.

She likes people.

Dolphins like being around people, being part of a team, leading a team.

That's why I said volleyball or basketball seems to be like a perfect team sport.

And I think parents can do that, too.

Just look at how your kids are, what they like inside and what they value, and push them in those directions, possibly.

So ask deeper questions than just, oh, they like this.

Yeah, I mean, I interact with parents a lot, too.

My company had about a thousand students a year, which means we had at least a thousand parents a year, right, that we were working with.

And all parents have their best intentions, but they often mistake knowing their child's favorite ice cream when they are nine years old as knowing them.

But, you know, it evolves past that to like, where you have to ask, like, why do you like this?

Why are you doing these things?

Like, what is your value system?

And then once you understand that, then you can kind of not make decisions for them, but help them make the best decisions for themselves.

Let's say you finish high school, you don't want to decide what to major in in college, which career path to take.

How would anyone use this test to decide what the potential best path could be for them?

So I'll just take one of the packs as an example.

Let's say you get the hunter pack, and hunters, their value, once again, is excitement, outward things, using tools.

Everything is external for them.

So a lot of hunters, actually, I would recommend maybe consider not going to college.

Maybe picking up a trade, going to trade school, because a lot of hunters really, really do well working with tools.

And let's be honest, you don't have to go to college and use four years of your life learning about, reading about sociology to learn how to use a saw or to use a welding iron.

I think a lot of hunters often go to college and they're like, oh, you know, like, this is not fun.

Like, I guess I just got to tolerate it because these are a lot of books, and not that they don't read books, but it's definitely not their best way to learn.

So if you're a parent and you know your child's a hunter, at least consider maybe like having them just go into something very specific that they can work on.

Because if you give them like a tool, let's say an instrument, sports, or go welding iron, they will practice it over and over and over again and have no problem working up with that for like hours on end to master it.

Versus other personalities that might do better in school.

I had three siblings that I was helping, and they were all in high school or close to college.

And the middle sibling was like, you know what, I want to drop out of high school.

And I knew that she was a hunter.

She's a shark specifically.

And I was like, well, you know, that's not a bad idea.

And I think she was surprised a little bit because, you know, generally when someone says, I want to drop out of high school and someone is helping them educationally speaking.

Probably high school.

Right.

So what I said was like, but you're going to get your GED, right?

She's like, oh, no, no, I'm going to get my GED.

I just don't like school now.

It's not fun for me.

I want to do something.

I want to work.

And I was like, that's not bad.

As long as you get your GED in the moment you get that GED, you're going to get a job, right?

She said, oh, no, no, I'm going to go and get a job right away.

And that's what she did.

She got her GED.

And literally that day, she went to five different places and apply.

And she got one of them.

And I'm like, that's great.

Work there after like nine months or a year.

Apply somewhere else.

Learn as much as you can and go somewhere else.

And then she did that.

And then she went back to college after like four years because she realized, okay, this is what I want to do that.

I know it now.

I'm very specific.

I have a specific objective.

And then she went back to college.

And then she told me, she's like, gosh, it's so funny.

Like I saw all these young 18, 19 year old kids in college.

I was like, gosh, I would have been one of these idiots because they don't even know what they're doing here.

Right.

I actually want to be here because I know what I want versus her younger sister, who is a different personality.

She's actually close to us.

She's a panda, which is a shaman type for her.

I was like, no, I definitely recommend to go to university because she had a lot of academic growing still to do.

And that's what she did.

So everyone you can treat differently and communicate differently, right?

Absolutely.

And that level of understanding, you know, she saved on student loans and changing majors every semester because she knew exactly what she wanted.

I don't know.

That's also really fantastic.

Yes.

And do you think leaders in organizations can use this test as well to lead their teams better, especially with conflict resolution?

Oh, yeah.

Definitely knowing someone's values on your team.

I never say a personality type is guaranteed to be good at something.

What I say is they're guaranteed to generally like something.

And the things that we like, we tend to do more of and practice more of.

And that's the more we practice, generally we get good at it.

Right?

So I think it just becomes that self-fulfilling prophecy.

But knowing what someone's personality type can help managers and leaders figure out, okay, this person is going to be more geared towards this.

So maybe I can give them these tasks.

Right?

Like if you know someone isn't necessarily the greatest with people and understanding people, but they're really great at researching, like they could research for 25 hours straight, you know, then give them that particular task.

And then this person, let's say they're not necessarily the best researcher, but they're really good mingling with people, give them that task.

And I also think it's good to know where people's growth arc is too.

If you're not on the battlefield, for lack of a better word, in the corporate battlefield, and you're like more in a growth period, then you can kind of go, OK, I know this person is not really good with people, and they're better at researching, but I want to help them be better with people.

So maybe this is something we need to work on.

And this person, maybe they're not great at researching, I need to help them get better at that.

And then the final topic of dating.

Do you think that this...

Do you think this personal eloquence can help you understand if you know what animal the person represents?

It can help you understand them better, if at all?

Yeah, 100% it will help you understand them better.

And definitely understand why you guys are arguing.

And that's the one thing we focus on, right?

Because we never focus on the good parts.

But it's true, like, I don't believe in soulmates and that, oh, you're this personality type, this is your soulmate, you gotta go with this personality type.

I won't say that.

Right.

But I would say that the way that you have conflict and the ways that you'll get along will be pretty consistent based on the personality types, right?

Which makes sense.

A common pairing, for example, is a gatherer and a hunter.

That's the most common coupling.

Because you think, oh, someone who values safety and security, someone who values excitement, those are kind of opposites, but those are appealing to each person, right?

Because the other person be like, oh, I don't want to be so boring.

Oh, this person is fun.

They like excitement.

Okay, let me hook up with them.

And then the other person is thinking, God, I'm kind of a flake sometimes.

I need someone who's grounded, who can like ground me.

Right.

Make sure we have toilet paper.

Yes.

So that's the most common coupling.

And you think mathematically it would be two gatherers because they make up about half the population.

But actually, it's the hunter gatherer pairing would be the most common.

But I'm always the belief anyone can get along with anyone and have a successful relationship.

As long as you're okay with the flaws of your partner, right?

Like if you're okay with that conflict, then that's cool.

But if you're not okay with that conflict, I think people need to know that you're not going to be able to change your partner.

And if you do, it's probably not good for either.

That never happens.

Right.

That's just wishful thinking.

Or denial.

A lot of denial.

Or delusion.

Favorite word of social media.

Delusion.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Right.

So any last words of wisdom, Eric, for anybody who's thinking, once I understand this personality test, what should I do with that information for my career and for my personal relationships as well?

I think the most important thing is understand who you are and what you really want out of life, and then pursue that.

And I know that sounds so simple, but I think that first part is the hardest part, right?

That first part is like, okay, who am I?

And hopefully understanding the personality type and reading my book will help them get there.

And then I guess having the courage to say, oh, hey, like what you did, you said, no, forget the corporate world, like I'm going to do what I really genuinely love.

And you moved to another country.

So that's even taking another leap with a totally different language, right?

So I think that is like the most important what you did.

Basically, find what you really love, go for it because you'll be better off for it.

Absolutely.

You'll have no regrets.

Words of wisdom from Eric Gee, the life coach, author of The Power of Personality, who has had over 500,000 people take the test in the last 20 years on your website, correct?

Yeah, like the website's been up for eight years, I think.

I'm trying to do the math in my head.

So yeah, we've had probably more than that.

I probably wrote that maybe a couple of years ago.

So ideally, we haven't had more since then.

But yeah, we've had a lot of people take the test.

Absolutely mind-blowing.

Thank you so much for being on our show today, Eric.

We really appreciate it.

Great job on guessing, my animal.

Oh, thank you.

Well, I do it for a living.

If I hadn't gotten it right, I would have been very embarrassed.

That would have been like just a face plant.

Very impressive.

Anyone listening can tell that you know exactly what you're doing.

So first of all, please tell us where we can find your book The Power of Personality and give us your website and social media handle.

Okay.

So if I buy it anywhere, Amazon, of course, but I guess they always say Amazon or anywhere you can buy books.

Definitely order it from there.

And I have two websites.

One is where you can take the test.

And the second is where you can find out about life coaching and my bio and stuff like that.

And that's utopiaproject.com.

But that's Utopia like Y-O-U, like YouTube because you can find Utopia within ourselves.

And then the other one is projectutopia.com.

Utopia, which is Y-O-U and projectutopia.com.

Eric Gee, life coach and author.

Thank you so much for being on our show today.

This has been really fun.

Thank you so much for having me.

My absolute pleasure.

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