Speaking and Communicating Podcast

The world's best in every area of communication are available for just $20

>> Nick Hutchison: The world's best in every area of communication, but also every area of life. Right? Health, fitness, nutrition, philosophy, psychology, personal finance, business. They've all written books or had books written about them. And so you can be mentored by these incredible people for just $20, a few hours of your time. And that's why these books are so useful. Somebody has already figured it out. Now you can just read their book and use what they figured out.

This podcast focuses on improving your communication skills both professionally and personally

>> Robert Sandleila: Welcome back to the speaking and communicating podcast. I am your host, Robert and Leila. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are, uh, crucial for your career growth and leadership development. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now let's get communicating with Nick Hutcheson joining us from Boston.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much for the introduction, Roberta.

>> Robert Sandleila: My absolute pleasure.

Nick Hutchison says international travel can be a great opportunity for growth

Welcome, Nick. Please introduce yourself.

>> Nick Hutchison: Sure. So, as you mentioned, my name is Nick Hutchison, and I'm from the Boston, Massachusetts area. I was born and raised up here in the northeast, but I've traveled around quite a bit, bounced around internationally as well. So I'm well traveled, but Boston is home.

>> Robert Sandleila: That's beautiful. And when you say that you also travel internationally, what have you found? Uh, some lessons from your travels.

>> Nick Hutchison: Well, outside of personal development books, I do believe that international travel, especially to a country where the primary language is not one that you're familiar with, I think it's one of the greatest opportunities for growth. And so I've spent a lot of time in Central and South America, in countries that primarily speak Spanish. And I'm always forced to embrace discomfort and think on my feet. And, yeah, I've learned quite a bit doing that, actually.

>> Robert Sandleila: Very key skills that we highlight, especially since the pandemic, there's a lot of changes, even in the workplace. The adaptability, thinking on your feet.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, yeah. Very true. And also, body language, I think, is incredibly important when you can't speak verbally. So I've had entire experiences where I'd like to go to a restaurant, sit down, and have a meal, but I can't communicate with the host of the waitstaff. So two people sitting outside. Here's what I'd like on the menu. I'm ready for the check. Right, so you learn all sorts of skill sets as far as communication is concerned, when you can't verbalize what you're intending to do.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yes. At the end of the day they say verbal is only 7% right of communication.

Nick Levine is the founder of book thinkers and author of Rise of the reader

So you are, uh, the founder of book thinkers, and you just authored you your book, rise of the reader. Were you as a child that much in love with books?

>> Nick Hutchison: No, I was not. So when I was growing up, I was more of the athlete stereotype, not really much of the, uh, academic. And so when I was younger, you couldn't pay me to read a book. And that sort of know it all, you know, focus on athletics type behavior continued with me through most of my college experience as well. But when I was going into my senior year of college, I took a sales internship at a local software company. And my boss at the time, Kyle, I think you recognized some unfulfilled potential in this 20 year old kid who thought he was on top of the world. And he actually recommended that I listen to business style podcasts on my way to and from the office. I was commuting about an hour each way, five days a week, so 10 hours in the car. And he said something along the lines of, hey, Nick, listening to the same radio station or the same playlist, the same music playlist for the 1000th time, it's not going to get you closer to where you want to be in life, but the right podcast might. You should check out some of these shows. So I started listening to these podcasts where successful people were being interviewed. And very quickly, I realized that leaders are readers. So many of these people gave at least some credit for their success to the books that they were reading. And so I just had a realization one day, if I'd like to live up to my potential, I better check out some of these books. And so that's what I did, and the rest is history for the rat. For the last ten years, I've been reading 50, 60, 70 books a year on average.

>> Robert Sandleila: Wow. Leaders are, uh, readers. We're going to hashtag that. Yes, now that you mention it, I don't remember a single guest I've had on the show where whether they are a leader themselves or they coach leaders, they would mention about two or three books on the show if they haven't authored one themselves.

>> Nick Hutchison: Right.

>> Robert Sandleila: But a lot of the time, they attribute a lot of their success to a certain book they read, or if they quote something, it's because they read this book and how they improve their leadership style.

>> Nick Hutchison: Absolutely. Yeah. Books are so interesting because they condense decades of somebody else's lived experience and greatest life lessons into days of consumption. So there's almost no better shortcut, right? I mean, it would cost a lot of money to get the world's best communication coach. But you can access their book for $20 and read it and apply it for a few hours of your time. I mean, it's like the greatest life hack that there ever was. And so that's why I was so surprised when I first started reading these books, that more people my age weren't talking about them, promoting them, reading them, focusing on them, socializing around them. And that's why I started my company, book thinkers, was to connect with like minded people and start sharing the lessons that I was getting from these amazing books.

>> Robert Sandleila: Well, all credit to your mentor. Kyle is right.

>> Nick Hutchison: Kyle.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yes, yes. Because here's the thing, especially this generation. Look at all the distractions, all the tech that takes them away from reading. Unless somebody brings it to their attention like you are, nobody's gonna particularly tell them and say, hey, when last did you read a book?

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, it's so very true, and I'm trying to make it fun again. You know, it's one of my missions here because I do believe that books have a very unique ability to help us solve problems, develop skills, satisfy curiosity. There's so much importance in the physical paper book because, like you mentioned, it is monotasking as opposed to multitasking, and it's delaying gratification as opposed to instant gratification, swiping all day long. So I've developed the ability to focus for extended periods of time simply by reading personal development books. It's a byproduct of the process, and I think it's important to develop that ability to focus in any area of professional expertise or whatever industry you're in. It doesn't matter. The ability to focus is a skill set that can help you win in life.

>> Robert Sandleila: I have art teacher friends who talk about how kids are actually being disadvantaged now when they come to school because of the swiping all the time. You know, they sit at restaurants and mom wants to eat and dad wants to eat, and you're going to be a distraction. Let's give you an iPad. And they cannot focus. And trust me, there's so many benefits to technology, but that thing of learning to stick to one thing, and now kids get bored so quickly.

>> Nick Hutchison: I know.

>> Robert Sandleila: And then when I do something else and something else five minutes later and something different five minutes later.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, it's very true. I, uh, talk a lot in my book, rise of the reader about the importance of delaying gratification. Are you familiar with the Stanford Marshmallow experiment?

>> Robert Sandleila: No. Please tell us about it.

>> Nick Hutchison: This group of researchers, they took a, uh, group of kids and the ones.

>> Robert Sandleila: That give mesh millers and say, I'll give you more if you. Yeah, right?

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah. If you can wait 15 minutes. Right? And so then they were able to follow those kids throughout the rest of their lives, essentially, the next 2030 years. And the kids that could delay gratification and be rewarded with a second marshmallow or pretzel, they were healthier, they were happier, they were wealthier. And so the ability to delay gratification and to say, hey, I'd like to serve my future self, I'm going to give up some present moment dopamine, right? Scrolling all day long or watching Netflix, and I'm going to learn something that might seem a little dull in the moment. It's not as exciting, but I know it will serve me in the future. And that's a very important thing to wrap our head around, because sometimes people will tell me, Roberta, they'll say, hey, Nick, I'm not much of a reader. I don't have time to read books. And I'll say, well, hold on a second. If I was to pay you $10,000 to read a book by the end of the month, do you think you could do it? And they'd say, well, of course. So you've fallen into my trap. It's not a question of whether or not we can read. It's a question of whether or not we value reading enough to prioritize it over Netflix and scrolling and all sorts of things like that. So, yeah, I think it's a very important skillset, because, again, like, sometimes I'll joke around with people. I'm 29 years old, but if you include all the books that I've read behind me, right, the books that condense decades of valuable experience into days of reading. I'm, um, thousands of years old, and so I think it's a great way to get ahead in life. It's not as fun, maybe as video games or something, but it sure is useful. I believe that.

>> Robert Sandleila: Hence, they'll only do it if you pay them ten grand. The delaying gratification, it's similar to opening a business. Do you know how many of us give up? Because within the first, however long, we thought it should make money by now, and I should quit my job. And then if it doesn't, you said, I'm done. I'm going back to my job, or whatever it is that we start. We have become accustomed to not seeing things through for the long haul.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, it's so true. In Michael Gerber's book the E myth Revisited, which is a great book on small business and systems, he says that 95% of small businesses fail in the first five years, and it's because of that reason you run out of money. You thought it was going to happen faster than it did or than it was going to. And I remember when I was first starting book thinkers, my agency, now we have ten people on the team. We serve hundreds of authors a year. But when I was first starting, I wanted to quit my full time job and go into it.

Nick says 95% of small businesses fail in the first five years

And I had a mentor at the time. He said, hey, Nick, 95% of small businesses fail in the first five years because they run out of money. Don't jump and then try to build the parachute on the way down because you'll operate from a place of scarcity and that scarcity will bleed into your decision making. So he said, nick, instead, build the parachute and then jump. And what he meant by that was if you build an emergency fund and you start to build this business, this side hustle of yours, and have it start to generate some revenue in advance of making that jump, youll be more successful. Jeff, youre right. I think that on social media we see all these entrepreneurs who go from zero to a billion dollars in a year, and its like, oh, I can do that too. But thats not realistic, right? Thats one out of a million. Thats a unicorn, especially with the books we're reading. There's a chapter in my book, rise of the reader, where I talk about some of the downsides of the personal development industry. Because I'm a big fan. I think most people are good actors. They're writing books because they have something valuable to teach other people. But there are some scam artists out there, right? Some snake oil salespeople, and they'll create unrealistic titles like how to make a million dollars in 30 days. And that's not a good expectation to set. That's an unhealthy expectation for you to set as an authority. I have a podcast, too, and I've been fortunate enough to interview some very successful and wealthy people, Grant Cardone and Alex Hormozi and Lewis Howes and these people. And there is no overnight success. Not a single one of them had any success overnight. It took a long time, and we don't see that longer than 90 days. Longer than 90 days unless you buy my course. I'm just kidding. You're right. It takes a long time, and so does the communication piece. I mean, it took me ten years. To become confident in my ability to communicate with any level of precision or the ability to articulate my thoughts and feel comfortable in front of an audience. It took a long time. It doesn't happen overnight.

>> Robert Sandleila: So you are 29. If it took you ten years, you started around the age of 19 to start working on your communication skills.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yes.

>> Robert Sandleila: Usually there are professionals who've graduated in a, uh, business or in the workplace, and they still haven't invested the time. Why at such a young age did you decide I need to invest in this?

>> Nick Hutchison: I had a lot of social anxiety when I was younger, and I plenty of examples of this. When I was in high school, I was very insecure, and I cared way too much about what other people were thinking. And so as a result, I shied away from raising my hand and speaking up in class or presenting in front of people. And there were a few experiences that sort of compounded that fear. One time I was in a spanish class in high school, and I was supposed to present a skit with a partner in front of the class in Spanish, and we couldn't use our notes. And I was so nervous. And during the skit, I was supposed to be eating a bowl of popcorn. I was so nervous, my hands were shaking so much that I dropped the bowl of popcorn in front of the class, and I left. I just left the classroom. And I had a few other experiences like that. So by the time I went to college, I started to realize that I could reinvent myself. This was an inflection point. It was an opportunity to change the narrative. And both of my parents worked in business. My mom was in retail management. My dad was in footwear and apparel sales. And so they both had proficient communication abilities. And I thought, you know what? I'd like to go into business myself as well. I'm a little bit of a, uh, rebel. I don't like to fit society's box. And so I'd like to go into business. And very clearly, I had to be able to articulate what was going on inside of my mind and communicate and sell. But I didn't have that skill set yet. So I took an internship my first two summers when I was in college. So 18 into 1919 into 20, where I ran my own house painting business, and I had to go door to door in my hometown, and I had to sell, which was terrifying. So the company that I worked with to help me do this, they provided some sales training, and you would meet once a week with some other students that were sort of enrolled in a similar program, and you would talk about sales, psychology, persuasion, communication. You would build scripts. And then eventually we had to go out there and knock on doors and sell our own house painting jobs, which was terrifying. But I knocked on at least a couple thousand doors each summer. And every single one of those door knocks was an opportunity to try something, receive feedback, make an iteration, and then go knock on the next door. And so you learn to face rejection. And I also think that through exposure, you can become desensitized to fear, and there's no better way to get exposure. And knocking on a new door every 30 seconds for two entire summers, right? So that was one step in the right direction. But out of the. There were probably ten students each summer. I was the worst performer both summers in terms of sales, but I probably grew the most because I went in with the least amount of confidence.

>> Robert Sandleila: You had this fear in high school, and out of all the jobs in the world, you went into sales, which we consider, uh, one of the most difficult professions.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, it was a lot. I don't know that I was conscious or aware of how much I had to sell when I first signed up for this program. You know, I think the marketing flyers in the cafeteria or wherever, I originally grabbed it for this company, they talked about how much money you could make during the summer. And so I was very outcome focused. I was thinking, wow, I could make 1020, $30,000 as a college student during my summer. That's all I was focused on. And so by the time I was accepted into this program and I started to show up to these meetings, the anxiety definitely started to build. And I'll tell everybody a funny story. Well, uh, not so funny story.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yeah, we love stories here with the.

>> Nick Hutchison: Other group of students and my mentor at the time, we built these scripts. So I was supposed to go up and knock on a door, and I was supposed to say, hi, my name's Nick. I'm a local college student running a house painting business to help pay for college. And I noticed that your house needs some work done. I'd love to come back this weekend and give you a free estimate as to what it would cost for my team to come out and fix everything, you know, to paint your house. And I was supposed to go up, and then I was taught how to handle objections and talk about my business, etcetera. But I remember the first time I ever went out. Uh, I had my sales mentor with me on the first day, and I knocked on the first house, and this woman answered. She was nice, but she said, hi. How can I help you? And I just said.

Nick became more confident in public speaking during his first two summers

Forgot everything. I just said, uh, would you like an estimate? And she was like, who are you? And an estimate for what? I turned to my boss, Kurt, and I was like, uh, what am I supposed to do? You know? And of course, she closed the door, and he was like, all right, on to the next one. This time, why don't you remember the first couple of words you're going to say? Just introduce yourself next time. Hi, my name's Nick. What's your name? You know, so repetition, you know, feedback, iteration. And what's so funny about it is that I was able to grow from shy and insecure into more. More and more confident throughout those first two summers. And I would see that improved communication and social interactions at school and during presentations in class that I actually decided then to go for a minor in public speaking. So I took public speaking classes when I was at school. And they would film you. So the teacher would film your three minute presentation on the importance of drinking water or something like that.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yeah.

>> Nick Hutchison: And then she would have you score yourself right after. You would have to estimate how many verbal pauses you used in three minutes. So I would say something like, I use the word, um, um, five times. And then you would watch the recording, and you would realize you used it 35 times. So it's creating a sense of awareness around your ability to communicate and all sorts of things like that that I tried out. I went to Toastmasters.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yeah.

>> Nick Hutchison: I read books on communication, and I got a phone sales job with the software company. It was a lot.

Letting go of fear of rejection brought success to your life later on

>> Robert Sandleila: Then when you're talking about the growth part, what about letting go of the fear of rejection, then brought success to your life later on?

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, I was taught that every no gets you closer to a yes, and that rejection is part of the process. And if you expect rejection, it doesn't surprise you so much. So I was taught, for every 100 doors that you knock on in a neighborhood, one person will set up an estimate with you. So you can't just guess which house it is. You have to knock on 100 doors in order to get one yes. Right? And so every no that I received, every door that got slammed in my face every time somebody threw out an objection that I didn't know how to handle, of course I'm taking notes so that I can talk with the whole group of students, and somebody could say, oh, here's how to overcome that more efficiently. But every no got me closer to a yes. So I knew if I knocked on 300 doors, it might be the last three people that say yes, but on average, three people will allow me to come back and present them with a quote to paint their house. Right. It became part of the process, and when you expect it, it doesn't surprise you just to kind of wrap up. I then minored in public speaking. I was trying so hard to remove my verbal pauses during my late college experience, in my early software sales job experience that I had my friends, if they caught me using a verbal pause, um, uh, so. But like the filler words, they could call it out. It didn't matter where we were. We could be in the cafeteria, we could be at the bar, we could be talking to some girls. It didn't matter if they called me out. I had to drop down and do ten push ups, which was very embarrassing in certain circumstances. Now I've let them creep back into my language today. But back then, I was focused on growing and improving as a communicator. I then had a phone sales job, which turned into more of a regional sales position where I was flying around and making presentations. And then I started book thinkers. With book thinkers, I had to get on camera and talk about the books that I was reading, which was very nerve wracking because now thousands of people are providing feedback on your ability to communicate. And then I started a podcast, and now the business has grown and I'm making sales presentations. We just hosted our first event where I was on stage for 8 hours.

>> Robert Sandleila: Wow.

>> Nick Hutchison: Uh, it's come a long way. I would have been shocked if you had told me that back in the day. But as far as failure is concerned, I think the same lesson applies with rejection. If you expect failure as part of the process, as a learning opportunity, it doesn't surprise you. And every business has failures. Book thinkers didn't make any money for years, and I would try different monetization strategies and they would continue to fail. We spent at one point tens of thousands of dollars trying to build a mobile application that could help readers retain and implement more from the books they were reading, and it failed. So there were so many opportunities where it's, I have to persevere. The road to success and the road to failure are the same road. It's just that you have to dodge a few more obstacles, sometimes jump a few more potholes, in order to actually get to the successful part of the road and the journey. Uh, most people just give up, like you mentioned. Yeah.

>> Robert Sandleila: Ah. These are the stories we want to hear because they help us also persevere.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah.

Steven Pressfield wrote from 20 until 55 before making any money from writing

Uh, the first one that comes to mind is the author, Steven Pressfield. He's the author of a few bestselling books, including the War of Art and Gates of Fire, each of which has sold well over a million copies. And he wrote a book that turned into a movie, the Legend of Bagger Vance, that starred Will Smith. Yeah. So that was his first book. But check this out. He wrote from the age of 20 until 55, before he ever made money from his writing. So for 35 years, 35 years straight, he worked odd jobs picking fruit on farms. He was a truck driver for a little while, worked on an oil rig, all sorts of jobs, just so that he could afford to write. And for 35 years, he experienced no success. And then his first book that gets picked up is the legend of Bagger Vance. At 55. Now, hes 80 years old. So for the last 25 years hes been writing. Weve had the chance to interview him a few times, work with him a little bit, and he is an incredibly inspirational person. 35 years, I asked him about that. I said, the average person my age, in their late twenties, early thirties, they want it yesterday. They're not willing to put their head down and work for two years, three years, never mind 30.

>> Robert Sandleila: Okay, five sounds like a good number.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yes. Craziness. But he felt called to do it. He felt this was his mission in life. You know, he learned a lot of lessons along the way. He has a memoir about the experience called Government cheese, which is, he actually drove a lot in the southeast, in Georgia. And he would deliver government subsidized food, like government cheese and milk and bread just to get the ability to write. That's all he was focused on. 35 years, that's one example. I'm happy to give more, but, yeah, Steven Pressfield is an amazing author. Uh, and those are the most valuable stories. You know, sometimes I think about it like this. I want to make sure that the audience feels like they can do it too, and that they understand these are just people. I mean, one thing that I've definitely learned is nothing is as fancy as it seems. None of these people are as fancy as they seem. Grant cardone manages billions of dollars, right? He's in his sixties. People forget about that. Ten years ago, nobody knew who he was. In his late twenties, he was in and out of drug rehab, alcohol, and he was a bomb. He didn't have any money. Right, in his late twenties. And then for 20 straight years, he worked his butt off selling, improving his ability to communicate, building a brand. And now we think of ten x and the jets and the cars and all that. Kind of stuff. But there's a story behind that person, and it involves a lot of perseverance and a lot of failure. And I think the same thing is true for all of these people. Alex Hormozi slept on his gym floor because he couldn't afford to sleep anywhere else. The list goes on and on and on.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yes. And it affects their personal lives as well. Some wives can't take it anymore, and they leave. You lose your family. There's so much of a cost when you build something that you truly believe in, because it can take that long.

>> Nick Hutchison: It can. Uh, one of my favorite authors, and this is a good story as well, Evan Carmichael. Are you familiar with him?

>> Robert Sandleila: Yes. He does those videos, the motivational videos on YouTube. Get the codes and make, like, a nice short video for us to just get the nuggets, or, uh, yeah, he does those videos. I love them.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, he's the best. I've gotten to know him pretty well over the years. He's. He's one of my mentors. And Evan, I think he posted for five years on YouTube every single day before he had any type of traction. I think it's on his website, but, like, year 110 subscribers. Year 240 subscribers. Year 3200 subscribers.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yeah, it was millions. Wow.

>> Nick Hutchison: He has a great line in his book, built to serve where he says, your purpose comes from your pain. And so when you persevere and you overcome something, that becomes your mission. You want to serve the people who haven't overcome that thing yet. And so, for him, his whole thing is believe. It's. He wants to believe in entrepreneurs. He wants to encourage people to continue to keep going because everybody can have their share of success. It just takes a little bit longer for some of us and a little bit more iteration. You know, it's always changing. Mhm.

Nick Hutchinson's new book focuses on mastering your reading habits and applying what you learn

>> Robert Sandleila: And then rise of the reader.

>> Nick Hutchison: Ah.

>> Robert Sandleila: When did you feel inclined to write the book? Because you had been talking about books all this time, right?

>> Nick Hutchison: A few years ago, after probably the 500th question I was asked, I thought, you know what? I should write a book about this. So, while I was building my community, now we have about 150,000 followers on Instagram. The account does anywhere between 500,000 to a million impressions a month organically. And so we reach a lot of readers, and as a result, we get a lot of questions. So people will say things like, hey, Nick, how do I choose the right book to solve this problem? Or, hey, Nick, how do I take effective notes while I'm reading? Hey, Nick, how do I actually use what I'm learning to create behavior change. I feel like the books go in one ear and out the other. And so I'm answering everybody right. I'm of service to my community as much as I can be, but I just realized that I wish there was a resource like a book that I can point people to that has all of the answers. And so I decided to start writing it, and I didn't have all of those answers in a way that I could present them at first. So I almost had to observe my own behavior from a third party perspective and say, what the heck does Nick Hutchinson do to read effectively and implement what he's reading? And I would journal about it, I would write about it, and as more questions would pour in, I would say, oh, that's a good question. I got to make sure I include that in the book. And so here we are. The book just launched on November 1, 2023.

>> Robert Sandleila: Congratulations.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah. Thank you so much. And it's, again, it's rise of the reader strategies for mastering your reading habits and applying what you learn. And it's all about how we can use these books to improve our lives.

>> Robert Sandleila: Absolutely. Applying what you learn. When I was growing up, they used to say, knowledge is power, and then it changed to application of the knowledge is power. Look at how much information is circulating. Just knowing something but doing any, not doing anything about it is not going to make a difference.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, Napoleon Hill said, action is the real measure of intelligence. And I think that's true. We talked about this at the start of the show. The world's best in every area of communication, but also every area of life. Right? Health, fitness, nutrition, philosophy, psychology, personal finance, business. They've all written books or had books written about them. And so you can be mentored by these incredible people for just $20 a, uh, few hours of your time. And that's why these books are so useful. Somebody has already figured it out. Now you can just read their book and use what they figured out.

What are some of your favorite communication book recommendations

What are some of your favorite communication book recommendations?

>> Robert Sandleila: For some reason, I read a lot of memoirs, because usually a person who writes a memoir, it's a snapshot of that part of their life. It's not the whole biography. When I was growing up, I used to read biographies, but something about memoirs is that the storytelling is much more detailed because they zoom in on particular experiences, and I get to understand them on a more personal level because they taking me to a place where something happened, and this is how they responded, and this is how they interacted with the other person. Like, for instance, Barbara Walters, when she wrote the memoir. It's one thing to be on tv and get given the script that you're the anchor. Read this. But it takes me to sort of behind the scenes person, because you see them at a human level and how they communicate, how they deal with things, not just the Persona they present in the media. The year of yes by Shonda Rhimes, the one who's created Grey's Anatomy and a whole, uh, list of other shows. It gave me a much better sense of who she is. Way better than any interview I've ever seen on her on. Which is crazy, I think, because she gets interviewed a lot. But there's something about memoirs that makes me understand the real person. Then you get to understand how they see themselves, how they communicate with others, how they deal with life, why they have the outlook they have. I don't know if I'm making sense.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, yeah, you definitely are. I love biographies, autobiographies, and memoirs especially. I mean, for me, my interest is mostly in entrepreneurship. So Walter Isaacson is my favorite biographer, and he's written about Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, but also Benjamin Franklin, Leonardo da Vinci and a few other people. I learned so much from those books. And when you think about a company like Apple, trillion dollar company, I mean, that book has trillions of dollars of business lessons in it.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yeah, I like a lot of Dale Carnegie material. Influencing people, which is also communication, how to influence people. Good to great.

Mentioned earlier the personal development industry. When I was growing up,

Mentioned earlier the personal development industry. When I was growing up, which were the, uh, eighties, that's when Tony Robbins, Les Brown, Zig Ziglar, that's when we were first introduced to personal development. And Tony Robbins had an infomercial back home in South Africa, where the whole day he will just be the tapes and the cds and the books. So when he released unleash the power within, I went and bought the book. I think it was like 400 pages. I was still in high school. And also I got to see his mentor. Have you heard of Jim Rohn?

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah. Jim famously said, you are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yes. He mentored Tony Robbins. So he came to Cape Town. Back home. My mom and I went to Cape Town to see him. That was my first introduction to the self development industry or era. I remember after Tony Robbins, the book that I read, which I still read even to this day, was john mind power. Napoleon Hill, you mentioned. Yes. Positive thinking book. Neil Donald Wash. But yes, it's funny that majority of the books are read are not purely about public speaking only.

>> Nick Hutchison: M. Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And yeah, I love a lot of those people, too. You know, I've read a lot of Tony Robbins and I've listened to a lot of Les Brown. I actually interviewed Brian Tracy. Have you ever read any of his books?

>> Robert Sandleila: He was part of that crew.

>> Nick Hutchison: Got a chance to interview Brian a couple of years ago about his book Eat that frog, which was really cool. And I've interviewed Jericho Robbins, Tony's son, who has his own kind of brand, which is fun. All of those people, I mean, they've written such amazing material and you can use that material to improve your life. And that's why I love people like that.

>> Robert Sandleila: I do too. As I said, they were introduced to me in my teenage years. So basically, for the last almost 30 years, no matter what I do or I read or I focus on, usually it's fed by the foundation that they planted back then when I was a teenager, because that's what I was exposed to. Yes. Outside of regular academics. Mhm.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, that makes sense. And for the audience, just a couple of my favorite communication style books. I love both of Vanessa van Edwards books. She wrote one book called Captivate, which is the science of succeeding with people. And then she wrote another book called cues, which is all about mastering charismatic communication. She defines charisma as a blend between warmth cues and competence cues. So if you're too warm, people perceive you as, uh, they don't know what they're talking about. And if you're too competent, people perceive you as unapproachable and kind of cold. And so, like, how to balance those as you're speaking. And I love her books. And then also talk like Ted by Carmene Gallo is a really cool.

>> Robert Sandleila: Yes, yes. For the TED talks. I have that one too.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, that's a good one.

>> Robert Sandleila: And the beauty today is that with you can just get an e book. As you said, you can get an ebook.

>> Nick Hutchison: And you know, it's funny, I, I actually work with mentor of mine who I see on a weekly basis. He lives in South Africa still. And he told me that Amazon is really only just getting into South Africa right now for the first time as far as print on demand book distribution and the, uh, ability to deliver. So still today, I'm sure we have.

>> Robert Sandleila: Our own local called take a lot. Our own local south african national delivery service. Our own Amazon. I also heard from my family that Amazon is making its way in. That's interesting.

>> Nick Hutchison: Yeah, yeah, maybe they'll just buy the other company. Who knows?

>> Robert Sandleila: Knowing Jeff Bezos, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Right, Nick, any last words for someone who wants to use books in order to improve their public speaking skills, just like you did?

>> Nick Hutchison: Yes, I'll say that. Books don't bite. You can read them in the privacy of your own home. It's not an intimidating experience. And there are so many people out there who are such wonderful communicators, and they've written about how you can communicate more effectively as well. So read a good book. Use it to improve your life. And here's my saying. The right book at the right time can change your life, especially if you implement it correctly. So also make sure to get a copy of Rise to the reader.

>> Robert Sandleila: Absolutely.

Author of Rise to the Reader, Nick Hutchinson, on Robert's podcast

Author of Rise to the Reader, Nick Hutchinson, please tell us again about your podcast and where you stream it so that we can listen.

>> Nick Hutchison: Sure. My podcast is titled Book Thinkers life changing books, and every episode features a world class author where we do a, ah, deep dive on their book so you can, as a listener, sort of use it as a book discovery tool. You can get a little preview, see what it's all about before you buy it, and it streams everywhere. The podcasts are streamed so you could check it out.

>> Robert Sandleila: That was Nick Hutchinson, author of Rise of the Reader, founder of Book Thinkers. Thank you so much for being here today. I've learned so much from just listening to you.

>> Nick Hutchison: Thank you, Robert. I appreciate the opportunity and a big theme in my book, as well as gratitude. So I'll just take a moment and say thank you for hosting a great show and for accepting my invitation to come on and speak. And I'm really excited to hear what your audience has to think about it.

>> Robert Sandleila: My absolute pleasure. Uh, thank you for being here today and for being so kind. Before you go, please give us your website details as well.

>> Nick Hutchison: How about this? If anybody wants a custom book recommendation from me, like you've heard the conversation today and you're thinking, yes, I'd like to start reading, but I still don't know where to start. Then shoot me a direct message on Instagram at bookthinkers. That's our most vibrant and active community. And tell me about a problem that you're facing or a skill that you want to overcome, and I'll provide a custom book recommendation. And then from there, there are links in our bio where you can learn all about our website and other links and stuff like that. So that's the best place to go.

>> Robert Sandleila: Is on Instagram, bookthinkers on Instagram, and you will get a customized copy from Nick himself thank you so much for being here today. This has been amazing. I appreciate you coming on the show.

>> Nick Hutchison: Thank you.

>> Robert Sandleila: My pleasure.

Thank you for joining us on the speaking on communicating podcast

Thank you for joining us on the speaking on communicating podcast. Once again. Please log on to Apple and Spotify. Leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss discussed on the show that will be of benefit to you. We encourage you to continue to get communicating and let us know how communication skills continue to improve your life professionally and personally. And stay tuned for more episodes to come.