Speaking and Communicating Podcast

>> Michelle Maidenberg: When I'm in a moment of distress, I'll stop, close my eyes, and I'll give myself like a butterfly hug. And I say, what I'm going through right now is really, really painful. The reason why I'm feeling pain is blank, blank, blank. I realize where this pain is coming from. And in this moment of distress, what I really need is to say to myself that I'm okay, I'm in pain.

This podcast focuses on improving your communication skills both professionally and personally

>> Roberta Ndlela: But I'm also welcome back to the.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Speaking and communicating podcast. I am your host, Robert and Leila. Uh, if you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are, ah, crucial for your career growth and leadership development. Now, in this exciting month of May, we have an amazing lineup of guests for you. On Mondays, our special guests will be helping us with our inner communication. On Wednesdays, we have public speaking experts helping us with becoming better public speakers. And on Fridays, our guests will be showing us how to reach global audiences. So stay tuned, share these episodes with those who will benefit from them, and log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.

Michelle Maidenberg is a psychotherapist and author of two books

Now let's get communicating.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Now let's get communicating with Michelle Madeenburg, who's a psychotherapist and is an author who's here to help us with dealing with emotional avoidance, anxiety, and learning to have self compassion and self love. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Michelle.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Hi. So nice to be here and to meet you.

>> Roberta Ndlela: It is so nice to meet you, too. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: So, I'm in private practice in Harrison, New York, which is part of Westchester county. I'm, um, also the director of, um, a nonprofit called through my Eyes, which offers free, clinically guided videotaping for chronically medically ill individuals who want to leave a video legacy for their children and loved ones. And then I'm an author of two books. One is called free your child from overeating. And then my most recent book is called Ace your life, unleash your best self and live the life you want. And then I also do a lot of writing. I'm a blogger for psychology today. I also, you know, periodically I'm also quoted in different articles and contribute to a lot of different articles. Also do a YouTube channel where I do weekly guided meditations. I offer, and I post weekly guided meditations as well.

You grew up with four Holocaust survivor grandparents

>> Roberta Ndlela: I will always have this question, especially for those professionals who work with human behavior. When you were growing up, did you think to yourself, I want to be a psychotherapist. Was that your dream?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: It's so interesting because I think about that. I think what really led me to do what I do honestly, and I didn't realize this until, like, later in life, was I grew up with four Holocaust survivor grandparents. As you can only imagine, they went through a lot of trauma in their lives. And I heard stories. I was very, very young about the war and about concentration camps and about just the adversity that they went through throughout their life. And I think I had such an incredible amount of compassion for them, you know, since I was a little, little girl. And I was also just a natural. I'm an empath by nature, and I'm also just a natural healer. I always had my friends coming over to me and asking me for advice and asking me how I felt about things. I was always kind of took on that role in my family also. And then when I was in high school, I took an AP course in psychology, and I won an award at graduation. So that's m that sealed the deal. I was very excited about that.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Especially, you know, that you're an empath. You feel other people's pain. And then when you decided this is the work that you were going to embark on, was there a fear that sometimes knowing that you're an empath, sometimes you'll be taking, because how many people do you see a day you'll be taking on too much, absorbing too much pain from your patients again, uh, you're.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Always absorbing something, because if you're a deeply emotionally emotional person, then you really care about other people and their suffering, and that's just the way it is. But I also see the tremendous amount of progress people make and how much they change their lives and they transform. And that, for me, is so rewarding. And I get so much out of connecting with other people in a really deep level that helped them really, through their stuckness. Just this evening, I had somebody that I was working with. You know, I went through his history, and, um, I'm doing EmDR with him, which is eye movement desensitization, reprocessing the tremendous amount of pain that this person experiences and has experienced that I'm helping him with. Like, you think to yourself, is this real? You know, could somebody really experience, you know, first, it was like a lot of bereavement, and, I mean, I could go on and on. His story was just, like, incredible to hear. I was talking to somebody else today. I'm seeing a couple, and I actually am seeing them both individually this week. But after speaking to the male part, I mean, the amount of grief and bereavement that he suffered since he was a child, his father actually died of a massive heart attack in his presence. I mean, his life started out that way when he was a teenager. And I could go on and on and on. Later on, another family member suicided. And this was a very, very close family member of his. Like you wonder how people survive all of this adversity and suffering. It's incredible.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Mhm. And then it begs the question, because I remember growing up, there was this very common phrase of, oh, time heals all wounds. As a psychotherapist, what do you think of that?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: I think we're all different. That's why I do like a very, very thorough assessment and evaluation for people, because if I'm doing specific types of treatment with them, I have to make sure that it's going to be therapeutically appropriate for them and it's going to be helpful. Time doesn't heal everything. I think, like even, even, like with grief, for example, again, in some of the treatments, they have a range, like you'll be in a state of grief from two years to seven years, or whatever the case is, it depends on the history of a person's trauma. It has to do on their coping skills, their level of support and resources. So I could go on and on what is going to impact, you know, again. And some people experience complicated grief because of all the things that I'm talking about depends on the relationship that you have with the person. So there's so many different factors to consider, you know, when you're kind of assessing or understanding somebody's treatment.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yes, I'm glad that you highlighted that because I also think if you don't do anything in the time, even if it's 50 years later, that the pain, the trauma is still there. Because, uh, sometimes we brush it away and say, ah, it ah, happened ten years ago, I'm fine. If you haven't done anything with it, is underlying there somewhere within your system.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Well, we take our adaptations, you know, and are coping with us as we age. Right. And through our development. If you think about it, I always kind of compare it. Like, if you have, let's say, a wound, and if you don't clean it out or if you don't tend to it in the way that it needs to, you're going to always have issues. If you have damaged like tissue or a ligament, if you're not properly healing it, you're going to have problems with it. You know, you have to really understand how it affects your nervous system. You have to understand how it affects your neural pathways. And it does. It just. It does. Because our memories get frozen in time. And when we have natural associations that we make throughout our lives, it could definitely spur up and activate. Right. Those triggers. And that's what happens. Like, there was a person I was working with where it was very obvious that an adaptation that he had was to literally scroll through life, making sure that his needs were met because he didn't have anybody that he could rely on. And in some ways cutting off his feelings, which could lead sometimes to being discompassionate towards others, right. Because if you have to accomplish what you have to accomplish, right, it's hard to think of other people because a lot of the feelings are like not being able to trust other people or feel like other people will be attuned to you, or other people will follow through on what they say they're going to do. And I could go on and on, right, all the things that go into relationships and what ended up happening was, now he's in a partnership and it's coming up with him and his partner.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Makes sense because now the feelings, you're not going to shove them away. If you have a partner, especially because, uh, there's going to be an exchange of feelings. They need to know how you feel about stuff. You need to know how they feel. So there's going to be opening up required there.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Well, and vulnerability too. Right. In his relationships. And that's not so easy either, especially when, you know, you have a certain perspective of how to be. So, for example, when his partner didn't do what he asked of her to do, he became very irritable and confrontative and aggressive. Not in a physically aggressive way, but just maybe verbally. I was asking him, how do you feel about the fact that she's not? So he said, I asked her three times, like, why can't she just do what I ask of her? Like, she sees that it's getting me agitated. And I said, do you believe she cares about you, that she loves you? And he's like, yeah. I said, hmm. So there must be a really good reason why she's not able to accomplish what you want her to. So instead of saying to her, you know, what's wrong with you? Why can't you just listen to what I ask of you? And, like, you know, I asked you three times and, you know, right, which is going to, of course, shut her down, you know, saying, like, gosh, I asked you a couple times and I'm noticing it's hard for you to follow through. I wonder why that is. Is there something maybe that I'm not doing that's conveying the message in a way that you could hear me, right? And he was like, oh. I was like, yeah, that stops somebody in their tracks because it gets them to think about their own behavior.

Michelle: We avoid negative emotions and discomfort because it's uncomfortable

You know that she's not doing it purposefully because she hates you, right? And he's like, he started laughing. He goes, of course not.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Ah.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: I said, then maybe there's some stuckness there for her and aren't you interested to know what that is? And he was like, yeah, I guess. And we get agitated, not understanding exactly the other person's position and what would happen for him because this is an adaptation he did since he was a little boy, is cut off his feelings and then just be very kind of discompassionate towards the other person because he wasn't getting his needs metal. Guess what? He's not going to get his needs met if he keeps on behaving that way.

>> Roberta Ndlela: That is true. And you know, as, uh, grown up, sometimes we push back if we feel like we're being made to do something. That's all the more reason. Like, I'm going to prove that I'm not going to do this. Michelle is nagging.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Yes. You dig your heels in the ground and you're like, no, not having it. Right?

>> Roberta Ndlela: Right. Now you say you help your clients with emotional avoidance. Um, when do we do that?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Firstly, I did a TED talk actually on emotional avoidance. It's called circumventing emotional avoidance, my TED talk. And we avoid negative emotions and discomfort. That's what we avoid. Why? Because it's uncomfortable. Like the feelings of, you know, sadness and anger and frustration and disappointment. All the negative connotations around those emotions. First of all, we don't want to have them because they're so uncomfortable. Second, we don't understand the utility. Like, what's the point of having them, right? So we're taught to disregard them, order to diminish our feelings. We're taught to, uh, deny right and to distract from all those kind of mind games that we play because we're sitting with such discomfort. Like for example, anger. I'll just use anger because a lot of people feel a lot of anger and irritability underneath. Anger, which is a, ah, secondary feeling is sadness or disappointment or frustration. And if you go to that place and you say to yourself, what's going on? For me, that's evoking this activation. You could say to yourself, wow, I'm really disappointed that my friend acted unkind towards me, and that came out aggressively through anger and frustration. But if you get to the sadness, instead of saying, like, I'm just angry at her, period. Right? Because what could you do with that except lash out? You could say, like, hmm, why does this hurt me so much? What value is it rubbing against for me that's causing me to be incited in this way? And let me understand my friend better so that I could understand something better about our relationship, so that we could proceed into the future with a greater understanding about ourselves and about each, you know, each other and about the relationship so we can have a more getter, a better, improved relationship going into the future.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Right? You do something that disappoints me as my friend. You know, sometimes, especially when we are hurt, there's a part of us that fears that if we express that there's some sort of power that we lose or give to the other person. Because here's the thing, Michelle. If you disappoint me, if I say, I'm, um, so angry, how could you do that to me, Michelle, versus what you did really hurt me, Michelle. The first one, I feel like I still have some level of power, and it's almost like I'm scaring you or making you frightened so that you're gonna act right next time. The second one, there's a level of us, uh, being that vulnerable feeling like we're losing some form of power. No.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Yeah, it is. I mean, we are disempowering ourselves when we're acting out aggressively. Right. It's not an authentic sense of power. Anger is not an authentic sense of power. And I have to tell you, people always trying to convince me that it is, you know? You know, uh, they say to me, oh, I need to act that way or else other people won't respond to me or they won't take me seriously. And I'm like, really? Oh, uh. So they're responding to you out of fear, not out of respect for you. Is that how you really want people to respond to you? Because they fear you, not because they respect you? You're not being authentic to yourself either, by the way. Right. Because you're kind of cajoling somebody or forcing somebody to pay attention to you. That's not authentic. When you authentically are able to assert yourself in a productive, helpful way and people are able to respond to you, that's a real sense of empowerment. So you have to think about your integrity. You have to think about the values that surround that kind of action, that lead you or lead people or your relationships into a direction that you wanted to go, that comes from sometimes an insecure place, like, people will not respond to me or people won't take me seriously if I don't assert myself in an aggressive way.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Oh, we call it boundaries. We say, okay, if I make sure that I raise my voice and make sure that you understand how angry this makes me. Me. I'm, um, creating boundaries in the sense that next time you will act right by me. Those are the boundaries. But if I say, what you did really hurt me, how could you know what I mean? I'm being a walk over, so to speak.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: The boundary comes into play when you assert your needs. So you could start out with saying, you know, my feelings are hurt, or, you know, it affected me so and so way. So. In the future, if you could please take that into consideration.

Boundaries don't have to come with aggressiveness. I think that's where we misinterpret that

And blank, blank, blank. That's the boundary that you're setting. You're giving direction to the person on, uh, an expectation that you have or also just having in mind your feelings. That's setting a boundary, but it doesn't have to come with aggressiveness. Boundaries don't have to come with aggressiveness.

>> Roberta Ndlela: I think that's where we misinterpret that, because we think back to people, people will fear you but not respect you. We think the fear is going to create the bulk.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: It can, uh. I want my kids to react and respect where I'm coming from so that they're taking action with that in mind. Typically, and I see this all the time, like, kids who just do it out of fear, it loses the nuance of the relationship, you know, the connection in the relationship. You can't love and feel so, so connected to somebody if you're petrified of them. It doesn't go hand in hand. You know, you have to have a level of respect for them in order to have that connected relationship. I think that's a misunderstanding. You could set a boundary in a very, like, incredibly respectful, caring, engaging way without being aggressive. One thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. You know, going back to the negative emotions, there's utility for all of our emotions. For example, anxiety or fear, like, brings on also motivation. We can't forget that if you were not fearful that you weren't going to get a good grade on a test, you wouldn't study if you weren't fearful that if you disrespected your friends, that they wouldn't be angry and compromised your relationship. You might take advantage of somebody. So there's utility to every negative. I mean, our frustration, our sadness leads us directly to what's important to us. You know what I'm said about something? Let's say people being mistreated or being marginalized or whatever the case is, that's important for me to know because I want to know who I want to advocate for, what's important to me, etcetera. Those are really, really important emotions. Just like we want to tap into our joy and our happiness and, uh, other feelings, too. But we really need to understand that there's utility to every single emotion.

>> Roberta Ndlela: It's about using them productively. What we consider those negative emotions, when.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: You say using them, it means behaving in a way that's in line with your values. Yeah, it always goes back to like, behaving in ways that are aligned with your values. So if you have information about how you're feeling, you do not want to act in the realm of your thoughts and feelings, because it doesn't always lead us in the right direction. Because our feelings can be overreactive, it can be irrational, it can be based on our past experiences. It can be how we're socialized. It can be on and on and on. But you really want to be grounded in your values because that is going to lead you in the right direction despite how you're thinking and feeling.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Hence, you say it helps with better decision making.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: 1000%? Yes, absolutely.

People get fearful that if you're self compassionate or you have self acceptance

>> Roberta Ndlela: And now let's talk about the self acceptance or the self compassion.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: So people get fearful that if you're self compassionate or you have self acceptance, that you're going to live a life of mediocrity, you're going to just be accepting of anything. And that is not the case at all. Because if you're accepting of yourself, you could actually work within the realm of who you are and how you function to improve yourself. Okay. Self compassion and self love. We're never taught. We're not taught how to be self compassionate and how to assert self love. You know, we're taught it's the opposite. We're taught how to be actually pretty hard on ourselves.

>> Roberta Ndlela: They call it self improvement because I think that's the two sides of the coin. We struggle with one moment we're told, you know, as we were saying earlier, that the emotions, we ignore them and stay positive and whatnot, then struggle to have compassion for those parts of us that seem undesirable. Because you just focus on improving and being better?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Mhm. Well, all parts of us are wonderful. So let me just say that, you know, all parts are wonderful. There are some parts that are underdeveloped, okay? That's all it is. It's underdeveloped. And there's good reason for that. Whether it's because of going through something in life or whatever the case is to think about it. This is in my book. But it's like a slate of marble. It's like a slate of marble. Okay? If you look at the marble, it could be very beautiful because it could have these beautiful colors, etcetera. But when you look at it in its essence, it's just a slab of marble. If you create a sculpture out of this beautiful slab of marble, you could have this beautiful artsy creation out of the slab of marble. That doesn't mean that the marble in and of itself has less value or is less beautiful than the creation of what you created. And it's there. It's always been there. It just needs to be cultivated. Same thing with us. We have everything within us that is beautiful and wonderful. Sometimes there's a smokescreen because of, you know, being protective. Sometimes, you know, we haven't been taught it. There's, uh, many, many reasons why we don't tap into our best self. You know, if you do like, uh, shadow work, which is very popular right now, but it's kind of tapping into your golden shadow, into the best parts of yourself. I find myself to be an extremely thoughtful, kind person, and I really bide myself on that, and I try to take actions on behalf of that, of course. Okay. But, uh, I also have another side of me which could be very judgmental and it could be very distant at times or kind of cut off. And I have to be careful of that. I have to watch it. I know where that comes from because I've done a lot of personal growth and personal work. So when that shows up for me, I become very curious and I'm like, hmm hm. What's that about? Why is that showing up right now? And when I feel the somatic responses in my body, for example. Right? Like heart palpitations, or whatever the case is, or like this deep feeling in my chest which happens to me, like, I get it. Right?

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yeah. Ah. Like your heart is gonna pop.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: I know that I have to sit in meditation and mindfulness and understand that better, like, what is going on for me. Because sometimes what meets the eye isn't really what's going on. And that happens all the time, by the way. Right. And, uh, when I dig deeper and I really understand a little bit more and I really, really investigate, I'm like, oh, that's what it was, you know? And it usually comes from a fearful place. It comes from a protective place. But those are old. Those are old. And part of that is learning how to be in this world right now as mature adults. Right. And not having to carry those adaptations with myself, which happens because we just naturally slip into it. So it's part of, like, that growing process and really developing and growing out the parts of yourself that may be a little bit underdeveloped.

Ace stands for acceptance, compassion, and empowerment

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yeah. And then please tell us the Ace method.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: So, Ace method is it's, um, predicated under. It's called ace your life, which is unleash your best self and live the life you want. Ace stands for acceptance, compassion, and empowerment, the way that I constructed it. I do like a chapter on our, uh, thinking, which is very important to know about, by the way, and most people don't know much about in terms of our neurological makeup. You know, our brain works. And then I do a whole chapter on values, which I've been talking about, and then I break it up with acceptance, compassion, empowerment, and understanding what the barriers are to each, what we're up against, because we need to know that. And then also how that are cultivated in your life. And this applies to any kind of stuckness, whether it's relationship issues and challenges it could be, which are interpersonal, intrapsychic, which are things that have to do with us personally as well. Anything that we're going through, whether it's career, family, relationships, you know, stuckness, if you're not quite, you know, following through on tasks that you want to, whatever it is, it helps you to really kind of cultivate those skills and knowledge base so that you could work through your stuckness.

>> Roberta Ndlela: You know, they say that how you treat yourself usually translates in how you treat others. So if you struggle to, uh, accept things about yourself or have compassion for yourself, does it usually translate to you being judgmental of others and struggling to accept what's less desirable about them?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Well, it's a projection, you know. So, for example, we disown parts of ourselves that we see in other people. So it's sometimes there are definitely parts of ourselves that we try to cut off or disown. Um, right. And sometimes we see those parts in other people, too. But, yes, it's also, you teach people how to treat you. That's another piece of it. If you don't have compassion for yourself, yes, it is hard to have compassion for others, but it's also what you model to other people. And like you said, the boundaries you set, the relationships that you cultivate, like, all of those are messages that we send out to the world, and that manifests itself through our relationships. I'll, uh, give you a personal example, actually, that happened to me. I realized that I was distancing from somebody, and I knew why because it had to do with, when I was with them, um, you know, when we would talk, they would interrogate me. They would ask me question after question after question, and it was very personal, evasive questions that felt a little uncomfortable for me. And it got to a point where it almost felt like they were just prying, like they didn't care about what they were hearing. They just wanted to hear. So I really distanced myself. And then I realized, because I kind of observed and I realized that this person had some really good friends and people that I know, and I'm like, hmm, why is it that they don't feel the same way I do? I don't think she acts any different with anybody else. Like, is that about me? Is that about her? Is it a possibility that I could actually talk to her and mention that that's something, you know, that maybe when she, you know, when we speak, that she could communicate maybe a little bit differently or in a way that's more helpful for me or gets me to open up in a more effective way or whatever the case is. I didn't bother doing that. I just distant. Uh, I decided I was going to kind of spend time with her. I did that. And instead of having that protective stance and, uh, again, that more defensive, judgmental space, I decided I was going to be really open and I was going to really challenge myself in that way. And I did pleasantly. What I found was when I was more compassionate and I was more open, I saw it a little bit differently, and I saw that that was just a little bit more of a social kind of challenge that she had. It wasn't something that she was doing to me. It was just like a social challenge that she had. And fundamentally that she's a kind, caring, thoughtful person and that, uh, she could actually be a wonderful friend to me. I actually texted her afterwards. I said, I just want to let you know, I realize that over the past couple of months, I've distanced, um, and I've just kind of been in my own little world. And I want to say that I really want to make more of an effort to connect with you going forward.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yeah. So you saw her through the eyes of compassion, and not that she's attacking.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: You, and that's maybe something that she struggles with, you know? And I actually had compassion for that underdeveloped part, and she actually responded to me, and she said to me, thank you so much, and I really appreciate what you said. She actually responded in such a favorable way. And those kind of things happen all the time. When I catch myself, I'm like, hmm, what's that about? It's helpful to understand myself so that I'm not necessarily spilling over to other people. That's not the thoughtful, kind, caring person I want to be.

>> Roberta Ndlela: That's not my best self nurture values, for sure.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Yeah.

Michelle suggests practicing self compassion exercises to increase self acceptance and self compassion

>> Roberta Ndlela: Michelle, uh, all of us struggle with one thing or another in accepting the parts that we think we're not really proud of. What can you suggest as a strategy to increase more self acceptance and more self compassion?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: I think we have to practice self compassion exercise. One of the things that I do in the book is at the end of each chapter, I have exercises, and then I also end each chapter with a guided meditation around that, uh, specific topic. It's kind of recorded with a scan, a, uh, code that you. That you scan. Part of self compassion is doing self compassion exercises. Sometimes what I do is when I'm in a moment of distress, you know, sad or whatever the case is, I'll stop and I'll say that out loud to myself. I'll close my eyes and I'll give myself, like, a butterfly hug. I really do. And I say, this is really hard for me. What I'm going through right now is painful. It's really, really painful. And then I'll say, the reason why I'm feeling pain is blank, blank, blank. Right. And then I'll say, I realize where this pain is coming from. And in this moment of distress, what I really need is to say to myself and to kind of internalize that I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm in pain, but I'm also okay at the same time. And that I could get through struggles, because I've gotten through struggles in my life, and I know that I'm strong. I know. Just taking a moment to do that, to acknowledge yourself, that's all we need, really.

>> Roberta Ndlela: The things that a best friend will say to you if you were in that situation and they were talking to you, trying to comfort you, that's exactly. Those are the words they will use.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Yeah, sometimes. But sometimes people try to. They're uncomfortable with negative emotions, so they'll say, oh, no, life isn't so bad or like, but you have this and this and this or. Mhm. We don't like for ourselves. We don't like to experience that either. But I know when I'm sad, there's something to learn about my sadness. There's something to appreciate about my sadness because it makes me appreciate what makes me sad, why I'm sad and what that means about me as a person. And that's something to be proud of, not something to disdain.

>> Roberta Ndlela: It sort of increases your level of self awareness.

Michelle Maidenberg shares some words of wisdom on speaking on Communication podcast

Any last words of wisdom?

>> Michelle Maidenberg: We have just such a one short life. I can't say that enough. I unfortunately have the experience of meeting with so many people and seeing such pain and atrocity. Life is fleeting. It's so short that we have this one chance to cultivate self love, to cultivate positive relationships, you know, to be doing the things we want to do, to really take that seriously. You don't want to live a life of regret and guilt and pain that's related to you not accomplishing what you wanted to in your life. Life's too short for that.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yeah. It would be such a waste. Indeed. Words of wisdom from Michelle Madeenberg, the psychotherapist and author who helps her clients with emotional avoidance anxiety as well. Thank you so much, Michelle, for being on our show.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Oh, thank you.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Before you go, we also want to know how we can reach you online.

>> Michelle Maidenberg: Yes. So you can reach me by my website is the best, best place. It's www. Dot. My full name, michellemaidenberg.com, which the name is written up there, which is good. But it's m a I d e n b e r g is the last name. Michelle is with two l's. It's my full name. You could contact me there. Again. My blogs from psychology today is all up there. I have hundreds of articles that I've written on all different types of topics. I have tons, uh, of podcasts. I have um, my YouTube channel for my guided meditations. There's a lot, a lot of information, a lot of information on my website. So I encourage you to visit it at any time.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Excellent. We'll be sure to reach out. Thank you. Michelle, thank you for joining us on the speaking on Communication podcast. Once again. Please log on to Apple and Spotify. Leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss on the show that will be of benefit to you. We encourage you to continue to get communicating and let us know how communication skills continue to improve your life professionally and personally. And stay tuned for more episodes to come.