Speaking and Communicating Podcast

This podcast focuses on improving your communication skills both professionally and personally

>> Shannon Petrovich: So they don't even understand other people's emotions, much less do they validate them or honor them. And basically, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, their thoughts, feelings, wants, moods, everything matter, and yours just don't. So you just trying to keep them from imploding or exploding.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Welcome back to the speaking and communicating podcast. I am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development. Now, in this exciting month of May, we have an amazing lineup of guests for you. On Mondays, our special guests will be helping us with our inner communication. On Wednesdays, we have public speaking experts helping us with becoming better public speaking speakers. And on Fridays, our guests will be showing us how to reach global audiences. So stay tuned. Share these episodes with those who will benefit from them and log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Now let's get communicating.

Shannon Petrovich is a therapist, author, coach and YouTube creator

>> Roberta Ndlela: Now, let's get communicating with Shannon Petrovich. Shannon is a therapist, author, coach, and YouTube creator. She's here to help us understand how we can better our relationships, how to get out of toxic relationships, and also deal with things like depression and anxiety. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Shannon.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Hi, Roberta. Thanks so much for having me on.

>> Roberta Ndlela: My pleasure.

Shannon says the word narcissist has become increasingly weaponized

Welcome. Please give us of your background.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Uh, I've been a clinical social worker for about 35 years. And then about five years ago, I felt like I wanted to have a little bit larger reach. I felt like there were millions of people all over the world that don't have access to information, mental, um, health strategies and things like that. So I started a YouTube channel called therapist Talks. And over the span of a couple of years, it seemed really clear that what people were really concerned about was toxic relationships, narcissistic relationships, and that sort of thing. So I've rebranded to therapist talks thrive beyond narcissism. And so we talk about all that kind of thing. And then I wrote a book to try to help people really heal and recover from toxic relationships. And recently I started a coaching program and masterclass that's called healfromtoxicrelationships.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Now, before we get into, you certainly are, uh, which is a good thing, right? It's a good problem to have. Here's the thing about the word narcissist, and you can correct me on this, everybody throws it in every situation nowadays. A lot of us are not trained therapists like you, Shannon. But if somebody doesn't do what I want them to do, he's such a narcissist.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Uh-huh.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Why are people over using this word, even in situations where it doesn't apply?

>> Shannon Petrovich: It's become highly weaponized. And I've been noticing it more and more over the past few years, uh, especially because it is out there on social media, YouTube, TikTok, and all of that. Some of it is extremely valid, and people need to learn about it, because when you're in a relationship with someone with narcissistic traits, you can get bowled over by them and really, um, manipulated by them. So it's such an important area, and yet now people are turning it around, and even narcissistic people are saying that the victim is a narcissist for trying to set boundaries with them. And so it's become flipped around. But that doesn't mean that it isn't really, really important to learn about it, know about it, understand it, really. But, yes, it's become very weaponized.

>> Roberta Ndlela: So please give us the ultimate, accurate definition of what is a narcissist.

>> Shannon Petrovich: There are nine traits of a narcissist, and if you have five or more in extreme degrees. And so a personality disorder exists on a spectrum. But at the extreme, this person has no concern for others, no empathy for others is extremely self motivated, self centered. They use people, they abuse people, they lie to people that it's like, all the worst behaviors you can imagine, and they're delusionally so. So they believe they're garbage. They believe that they're in the right. And when they tell you that you're wrong and when they gaslight you, they're actually believing their stories. So it's a very, very puzzling type of person to be in relationship with, because if you're not wired that way, you just don't get it, and you don't see it coming, and you don't see it even, because they manipulate you so much that they literally brainwash you into beating up on yourself. So not only are they beating up on you, but they're really good at getting you to beat up on you. So in my work with people coming out of these relationships, we first have to kind of figure out reality and then start to heal the inside so that you're not any longer beating up on yourself. And then start to stand up to others and have boundaries with others. You know, even in the more mild and moderate, it's someone who's extremely self absorbed. They kind of take up all the oxygen in the room. They are all about themselves. They're very superficial. They're not interested in deeper character qualities in themselves or others. They're very envious of other people and they think other people envy them. They are self centered to a, uh, really large degree. And they really don't empathize with other people. So they don't even understand other people's emotions, much less do they validate them or honor them. And basically, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, their thoughts, feelings, wants, moods, everything matter, and yours just don't. So you end up feeling like you're always placating them. You're always people pleasing them. You're constantly peacekeeping and just trying to keep them from imploding or exploding. So it's a rat race of craziness.

This thing of being gaslighted also has degrees, right? Yep

>> Roberta Ndlela: This thing of being gaslighted. I'm guessing it also has degrees, right?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yep.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Let's say my sibling. If I say, no, no, no, you did not say that. And they say, oh, you're gaslighting me, versus the just constantly the person always denying what you said or did or what they said and did, and you're saying they did it. You start to get confused and thinking, um, I think I'm the crazy one. I genuinely remember this person doing this. And they say, it didn't happen. Was I dreaming?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah. And you're right, the gaslighting word is also being thrown around a lot. But the real gaslighting is very, very sinister and pervasive in a relationship like this. So you feel like you are crazy and they look down at you and are condescending to you like you are crazy and you don't. That's not what happened. And over time again, it also is coupled with isolating you from your people so you don't have people to bounce off of. So they'll carve you away from your family, your friends, your activities, even your work. And it usually comes in the guise of, I love you so much, I want all of your time, all of your attention, stuff like that. And so people go, oh, that sounds nice, but it's not nice. It's isolating and it's narrowing your world down to them so that they can feed you these little breadcrumbs. Since you're starving to death. Those breadcrumbs are all you get. And that's enough. I mean, it becomes what you want. It's terrible.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yes. Because if I have friends I sometimes hang out with, or I sometimes have a different circle from this person, obviously, if I say to them, this is what happened at home with him, they will say, no, Roberta. But, you know, I mean, like you said, you bounce off the ideas just to check you're not crazy, so he should isolate you in order for you to not bounce off ideas with other people and say, can you be my blind sport and see if I'm the crazy one here?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's why it is important that people reach out and. And learn about this and communicate with each other on different social media forums, because a lot of people are extremely isolated all over the world. You know, people tap into my channel from all over the world. It's really wild. I love that about social media. I know it can be used for evil, but it also can be used for good.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Can you give us an example? You don't have to mention names of your clients. Can you give us an example of they had a partner, and they said, these are, uh, the traits or the behaviors that the partner displayed. And you came to the conclusion that that partner is narcissistic.

>> Shannon Petrovich: I've had so, so many. What's kind of ironic or interesting, sad, is that, uh, they'll often come in and say, I have anxiety and depression. I don't even know why. And then when they start describing their life, I think, and I'll sometimes say out loud, if I lived in your shoes, I would feel anxious and depressed, too. And then they start to open their eyes to the fact that they live in a very toxic environment. So I have to kind of help educate them about. It's sort of like you're drinking poison all day, every day, and it's not enough to quite kill you, but it's killing you slowly, because when somebody is constantly bombarding you with anger and explosiveness and condescension and picking apart everything you do, that kind of behavior, you just erode and erode and erode. And the adrenaline is going off all the time. So it's like living in a war zone, and your brain is literally being soaked in adrenaline all the time. That creates a cortisol buildup. You have PTSD, even though you might even not see that. You're going through trauma all day, every day.

>> Roberta Ndlela: And here's the thing about a behavior. When it's repeated, at first you might go, whoa, what is this? You're on high alert. But the more that it happens, you also start to be numb to it. You get accustomed to it, in a sense.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yes, absolutely. And that's part of the problem, is that people become so accustomed to it that they no longer notice it. And that's when they bring it up in session. They'll see the look on my face, like, that's abnormal. You know, that is really toxic. And some of the behaviors that people become numb to it is so surprising. But it's like being brainwashed. I mean, they're isolating you. They're telling you what they want you to believe, and then they love bomb you. So it's the cycling back and forth, right? Because if they just did all these negative things all the time and you'd.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Leave them, you'll pick it up.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, but then the love bombing comes in and, oh, you're the only one for me oh, I can't live without you oh, if you leave me I'll kill myself. I mean, it runs the whole gamut of manipulation and pressure and I love yous with these really toxic messages underlying that, peppered in with all this devaluing, undermining, gaslighting, so that over time, they've trained you to train yourself, to undermine yourself, too. That's just really twisted. And it sounds crazy, but literally, if you've been through it, that's what it's like. And people equate it to having to deprogram from a cult. It's that intense. And your partner is the cult leader. Yeah.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Brainwashing you indeed. This is so profound.

What's the difference between a normal disagreement and a toxic relationship

And then another word that gets thrown around is toxic. So what you've described right now, we fully understand that that's toxic. However, sometimes if I just have a disagreement with the person I'm with, and then if I tell my friend and she goes, you're in a toxic relationship. How can I say that to you? Another word that I think we overuse. Other than the extremes that you've described, can you at least then tell us what's the difference between a normal disagreement between two people in a relationship and a toxic relationship?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, very good question. I think it's so important. In normal, healthy disagreements, we talk about it. You know, I express myself, the other person expresses themselves. We figure out if there's any middle ground, you know, if it's myself and my husband. We talk about whatever is on our minds. There's no meanness, there's no degrading each other. There's no blowing up or storming off or any of that intensity that is manipulative is bullying. And people bully in different ways. Like, some people will do the implosion thing, but it's so intense that it completely blows apart your ability to stand up to it. So the COVID narcissist typically does the implosion thing, and then everybody's walking on eggshells. You don't want to say anything that they don't want to hear. And so, again, it's like being trained into this culture. So toxic is basically when someone is being mean or hateful or saying degrading or demeaning or disrespectful things. Because we can have agreements and disagreements all day, but we don't have to be mean to each other ever. Really?

>> Roberta Ndlela: Mhm. We can disagree on the issue, but not attack that person we're disagreeing with. Exactly. Which also brings the point of, I think I heard one. Was it a marriage counselor or a pastor who said, you can tell if the couple's marriage is going to be successful based on how they fight? Yeah, because we always think, oh, it's how much I love you. It will determine if we're going to spend the rest of our lives together. But he said the important thing to look out for is how do they fight when there's a disagreement? How do both of them communicate with each other if they disagree?

>> Shannon Petrovich: And I would extend that to everything. You know, if you are going into a workplace or have a friendship or have a partnership, that how that person deals with conflict with you is critical. That's the information you want. So when people jump into relationships really quickly, I just shake my head. You have to spend a lot of time with a person to see how they have conflicts. How do they deal with frustration or sadness or despair or disappointment or someone disagreeing with them? And when you watch and see how a person reacts to that, you see what their heart is all about. Are, uh, they still kind and caring while they're having a disagreement, or do they go right for the jugular and some people will, it's like, wow, they went right there. They knew that was the most tender spot in that person's heart, and they went right in for the kill. And that's toxic. That is just really, really toxic.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Okay. You're married, and you don't know what it's like. Sometimes in the dating thing, do we sometimes get blinded by, yeah, he may be mean to the waiter, but he's nice to me here on the table while we wait for our food. Or he was being mean to the waiter because they were taking so long to bring my food, so he's looking out for me.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Do we confuse that with, oh, he's loving me versus he's actually a toxic person?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yes. Uh, gosh I think we messed that up a lot in the, um. I had a toxic relationship in late high school, and I used to say, well, nobody understands him like I do, and he would never hurt me, and he would never do that to me. And I was like, total delusion. Right. Um, and so how somebody treats everybody is how they treat everybody. And. And he may be shining you on, or she may be shining you on now, but, uh, that's going to end. So you have to notice how they treat the waiter and the best person and everybody. Everybody. And that's how they're going to treat everybody.

>> Roberta Ndlela: And everybody includes you, who they claims to love.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah. Yeah. And if they cheated on their previous person, more than likely they're going to cheat on you. So all that delusion is just awful. And we tend to choose projects instead of partners, and we need to choose partners, people who really have the potential to be our sanctuary away from the crazy world. You know, a lot of people, their relationships are the worst part of their lives. They're the craziest part of their lives. And that's so sad, because it's a crazy world. We need a sanctuary at home, at.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Least to come home to peace and love. Yes.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah. Uh, that's where you should recharge.

A lot of women are accused of wanting the bad guy and being bored

>> Roberta Ndlela: Back to that, now that you've mentioned it. A lot of us women, those of us who are single, we are accused of wanting the bad guy and being bored by the kind guy. What toxic trait are we carrying to the dating market when we behave that way?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Well, part of the problem is, I think we often need to look at the role we played growing up. So for a lot of people, especially women, I think we're taught to be placating peacekeeping and people pleasing. And if we grew up with angry, moody male figures in our lives, then that feels like home. It's not a conscious choice, but it just resonates for us. And that's really unhealthy and sad. And we have to recognize, okay, that's my partner. So I was widowed. And then when I got back into the dating scene and found my current husband, he was just the most amazing man. And I thought, uh, way back when I was not healed, I would not have chosen him.

>> Roberta Ndlela: He would have bored you.

>> Shannon Petrovich: I don't think it would have even been boredom. I just would have felt weird, I think is the word, because I treated myself so poorly inside my own head. He was just too wonderful. I know that sounds crazy.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yes, that's true. Which is what we get accused of the most, um, wonderful guys are the ones who struggle to find a decent woman. And if the guy is a bad boy, that's how we get excited.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, but I don't think it's excitement. I think it's resonance. I think it's resonating with our past roles and past childhood relationships, in our family relationships. And I think it's an unhealed part of us where if we really, truly learn to care about and nurture ourselves from the inside out, that we're going to resonate with that wonderful guy that's going to be a wonderful partner to us.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Right. We certainly need healing. Indeed. So what is the next step when you recognize that, wait a minute, this is not a healthy relationship. What is the next step then, in order to finally get out of it? Because let's be honest, we don't recognize that on day one. And then the next day we pack our bags and we're gone.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Nor do you need to. Sometimes you can identify your own thoughts, feelings, wants and needs. Express those, and sometimes your partner will say, wow, I'm glad you showed up. You know, because if we started the relationship as the placator and people pleaser, they don't even know who we are. So that part is mine to own and to change. Then when you show up, you get to see what they do. So do they. They love you or are they mad?

>> Roberta Ndlela: They want that people pleasing part?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, it's not good. And if they say, I, uh, want my wife back the way she was or whatever, it's like, oh, yeah, it's not going to happen. I can't unsee this. This is not going to change. So, yeah, taking ownership of your own thoughts, feelings, wants and needs and then setting boundaries. You know, sometimes people need those grown up timeouts. Like, okay, well, when you calm down, you can call me back and hanging up or walking out of the house or other room or whatever so that people see, oh, I can't treat her the same way that I used to. And then again, you get to see what happens. So if they escalate from there, then you know that the only way this relationship works is if you don't exist. And so you've got to get out or you don't exist.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Yes, because they want that version of you that just serves whatever they want at that time and not the real, authentic you.

Journaling to help you heal from toxic relationships. By Shannon Petrovich

And then please tell us about your book.

>> Shannon Petrovich: It's called out of the fog into the clear journaling to help you heal from toxic relationships. And I wrote it to really be an adjective therapy or even a standalone self help book. So that I walk you through all of the different things that I've been talking about, from recognizing how you treat yourself inside your own head, inside your own heart, to really reclaiming a better, healthier sense of self, and then learning to stand up for your boundaries, for your wants and needs and thoughts and feelings, and then walking through how to heal, how to really calm down the emotional survival systems that have been on fire throughout this whole stressful period. How to learn to take care of yourself again, or for the first time sometimes, how to rebuild your life. Because a lot of times people come out of these relationships emotionally, spiritually, physically bankrupted, and we have to rebuild out.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Of the fork into the clear. By Shannon Petrovich.

The pandemic created a lot of loneliness, as well as stress

Now, when it comes to relationships as well, you mentioned loneliness earlier. The pandemic created not only a lot of loneliness because of the distancing and being forced to stay home, but also whether it was people who had been married all along, suddenly getting divorced, or people who thought, this is scary, let's just stay together, even though we're not happy, because nobody knows what's going to happen. What did you see where the patterns with your clients during that period?

>> Shannon Petrovich: All of the above. There was an explosive need for counseling. You know, thankfully, we were able to move to the zoom platforms and things like that. So video counseling became a thing. But, yeah, the intensity of the fear, and I think the people who lost the most probably suffered the most in terms of relationships, too, because the people who were doing fine with their jobs and could work from home and their paychecks didn't suffer and things like that, they were probably okay. But the people who lost their jobs and were trapped at home as well, that was stress upon stress, and those people really blew up and then had nowhere to go. It's a really sad situation, and it just highlights how there's just such a huge need for mental health therapy and help.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Mhm.

Social media stresses have had an enormous impact on girls in particular

And why do you think this generation of teenagers, at least compared to my generation, why does this generation of teenagers suffer from depression on such a large scale?

>> Shannon Petrovich: There's actually a lawsuit, um, going on right now against meta for instagram, targeting teenage and preteen girls. Basically, the social media stresses, I believe, have had an enormous impact on girls in particular. Again, they don't have a lot of good information about what is anxiety, what is depression, and so if they feel sad or if they feel scared, then they immediately feel more scared, feel more sad, feel more scared, feel more sad. And so we don't teach in school how to self calm, how to self soothe, how to talk your way down off of that fear. And so typically, the voice inside your head, the messages in your head are just, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.

>> Roberta Ndlela: It just gets worse.

>> Shannon Petrovich: You're in a panic attack, and then you're continually afraid of the panic attacks. So you're continuing to do that. You know, it's a lack of information. You know, we all did embarrassing things when we were teenagers, but it wasn't broadcast.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Nobody had a phone with a camera.

>> Shannon Petrovich: No.

>> Roberta Ndlela: And it wasn't running.

>> Shannon Petrovich: And everybody's social media. Ah. Oh, gosh, I can't imagine that would have been horrible. That's awful. My heart breaks for these girls in particular, boys, too.

>> Roberta Ndlela: And they can also do some really mean things with that recording of you at school and something happening. And I just like, how do these kids cope today?

>> Shannon Petrovich: Yeah, it's horrible.

Any last words of wisdom from anyone who's questioning whether they are in a toxic relationship

>> Roberta Ndlela: Any last words of wisdom from anyone who's questioning whether they are in a toxic relationship or it's just a normal disagreement phase that they are going through with their partner?

>> Shannon Petrovich: I think the best thing to do is to notice, notice, notice, notice. So emotionally step back and watch because toxic people have this whole ream of games and they become kind of predictable. And so if you step back emotionally and don't get affected by them, but kind of watch the circus go by, you'll say, oh, wow, oh, wow. Oh. And there's that game. And then that didn't work. And so now they're switching to this. Like, sometimes they'll bounce from guilt trip to anger to sadness, to poor me, to the martyr thing. You know, it's like they bounce all around. If you emotionally step back and don't get hurt by it because it isn't about you, then you can see it. And then also notice, what am I actually feeling or thinking or wanting and express that. And especially if it's a disagreement, start to say that stuff more and more sooner in a relationship. So don't play nice and placate and do all that stuff in the early relationship because you're just not showing up. Truly, you're not. You're showing up in your authentic self, as you said. So it's really important that you notice if you are doing those old patterns, because I think, ah, we as women are very much trained to be that way, and we have to fight that. So when you show up, step back. Notice what happens. Do they get whiny because you want to go out with the girls one night? Do they pout or do they ghost you, which is another form of them punishing and bullying you, right?

>> Roberta Ndlela: Oh, yeah.

>> Shannon Petrovich: So if you speak up for yourself and then they ghost you for a week. Bye bye. It's not worth your time.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Just isn't. Be like an outside observer, basically, of your relationship. Yes. Thank you so much for being such a wonderful resource.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Thank you so much, Roberta.

>> Roberta Ndlela: There's so many of us who need this. My absolute pleasure, Shannon. And before you go, please tell us where we can find you online and give us details where we can find the book as well.

>> Shannon Petrovich: Okay. It's heal from toxicrelationships.com info. And also nofoggydays.com is my book site, but it's on Amazon and Kindle and all that good stuff.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Okay. Heal from toxicrelationships.com is your website. No, foggy days is where you'll find out of the fog into the clear.

>> Shannon Petrovich: The book. Yeah. Or on Amazon.

>> Roberta Ndlela: Or on Amazon. Thank you so much.

Speaking on communicating podcast focuses on improving your communication skills

Thank you. My absolute pleasure. Thank you for joining us on the speaking on communicating podcast. Once again, please log on to Apple and Spotify, leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss on the show that will be of benefit to you. We encourage you to continue to get communicating and let us know how communication skills continue to improve your life professionally and personally. And stay tuned for more episodes to come.