Speaking and Communicating Podcast

How many times as leaders, though, have we been so sure there are people like us, they're with us, we have buy-in, we have commitment, right?

And then all of a sudden something happens, and you go, well, I had compliance, I didn't have commitment.

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And speaking of leadership, this exciting month of April, we have a special leadership series where every single guest will be a leadership coach, a leader in their own organization, and they will be helping us become better leaders ourselves.

And to top it off, we have three episodes per week instead of the usual two.

We will be publishing three episodes per week, Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, instead of the usual two episodes a week in this special leadership series in April.

So stay tuned, become a better leader, and log on to Apple and Spotify to give us a rating and a review.

And let's get communicating.

Now let's get communicating with Jay Williams, founder of Jay Williams Company.

He helps leaders, but not only leaders, but especially mid-level to senior leaders with their communication skills, conflict resolution, and most importantly, giving feedback.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show.

Hi, I'm excited to be, you made me sound very good.

Thank you.

I hope I could live up to that.

I wish I didn't make any of that.

Thank you for being here.

Oh, I should thank you because this topic I'm passionate about.

It's not just who I do for a living.

I think it's something that has always been relevant.

And I think more than ever is imperative to people growing and developing and flourishing in their roles.

And I'm going to push back a little bit.

You said soft skills.

So I think it's a great place to open up the conversation because I felt for years, people have always referred to the technical skills, whether you're an engineering or you're a chemist or you could be a stylist, whatever your tech machinist, whatever your technical skill is.

And then they said soft skills.

And somehow it diminished the importance of it to me.

And I think as we're moving on from a societal standpoint, a business standpoint, we're seeing these are really the crucial skills.

And I think that is really a more description of the skills versus soft skills are these critical skills that combined with your technical skills can supercharge your connection, your communication and I think your career as well.

It's funny you say that I cannot tell you how many guests I've had.

And in fact, I had a guest who challenged me on how I had this debate about the term soft skills with another guest previously as she listened to the episode.

She said, Roberta, I don't agree with you with how you handle that because one of the things the previous guest had said was soft skills are also seen as more the feminine traits.

So it's more the nurturing type of traits, the people skills and everything, whereas everybody should have them male or female.

And they are the human skills.

Simon Sinek says the human skills.

It's funny you also say I'm worried about the term and how it comes across.

They are harder to learn.

Isn't it funny Jay?

It is, I think, you know, from your career, you're an engineer.

Yeah, I worked with them, yes.

Yeah.

So those people were rewarded, they were promoted, they were compensated based on these technical skills.

So it reinforced this message that if you want to be successful, move up in your career, make more money, these are the skills you need to be successful.

You know, what you're calling soft skills and what you call maybe traits that are more aligned with empathy that might be more aligned with women.

You know, interestingly enough, those are the skills that make women very successful.

I mean, when you look at COVID, there is overwhelming documentation as far as CEOs who experienced success.

And success either being profitability or retaining people.

And overwhelmingly, it was women executives.

I don't think it's relevant where the skill comes from.

I think what's important, this is a skill important, because it doesn't matter if it's important, whether it's a male or female.

And by the way, I know as far as identity and gender, I'm not saying anything else than repeating what's said as far as male and female.

So somebody identifies differently.

I certainly want to respect that.

I think what encompasses what we're talking about today that has universal applicability is this EQ or this emotional intelligence, which everyone agrees that that's not gender specific, everyone needs it.

And so the number one trait that studies have shown in the past year that people are looking for from their leaders and really from everyone is empathy.

So when you look at that and you look at emotional intelligence, just for the purpose of just a common definition, by the way, there's several definitions and I might be over simplifying it.

When you talk about emotional intelligence, it's simply your ability to identify and understand an emotion in yourself and others, and then adjust your behavior accordingly.

Is that a gender trait?

I mean, I think everybody, it's a human trait.

And so I think when Simon Sinek referenced that it has this universal applicability regardless of your gender, and listen, IQ is important.

I'm not minimizing that.

I think there's a certain intellectual capability, capacity that needs to exist to get in the room.

Whether you're an engineer or whether you're a doctor or whether you're a machinist, I'm not minimizing that.

Mm-mm.

What studies have supported is that once you're in the room, what begins to separate the group and the people who begin to experience a different level of success, are these people who have this emotional intelligence, this empathy, these quote unquote soft skills.

Mm-hmm.

So I'll pause there.

I get excited, Roberta, so you may have to stop.

Please continue, we love excitement.

You're exactly right.

You need to be a subject matter expert in your field, no matter where you are.

That we will never minimize.

But as you said, it distinguishes you from the rest if you do work on these skills and you display them when dealing with your coworkers, your leaders, et cetera.

And also not just once you're in the door, sometimes you need them to get in the door because if you get your A's from Harvard but don't know how to interview, don't know how to communicate your skills, why you see yourself as an asset, you don't get the job because they don't know why you are an asset to them if they hire you.

Think you and I were having this conversation as far as how early could we introduce some of these concepts.

So you talk about the interview process and somebody coming out of an interview, generally what happens is they want to impress the other person.

And so what happens is they're thinking, well, what can I tell them that's their thinking that will make me a viable candidate?

And to shift the thinking is you go from being interesting, which is what you want to do in an interview, right?

Be interesting to that person to being interested.

And so all of a sudden, it shifts your thinking.

And so maybe it's not so much what I say, it's what I ask.

And the emotional intelligence comes in is that, when someone says, well, I don't know if you have the experience.

So our tendency would be, well, I do have the experience.

I don't have the experience, but I'm a really hardworking person, right?

With the emotional intelligence to identify and understand, you would identify that, you know what?

The person may not see a connection there.

You know what?

Let me kind of understand where the disconnect is.

So it's not what I say, it's what I ask.

I'd ask them, is where do you see me missing as far as skill set or experience, or what experience would you like to see?

Some of the high emotional intelligence, somebody that can read the room, right?

Has some of these quote unquote soft skills, the ability to identify emotion in themself and others, adjust their behavior from talking, speaking, to asking questions, to gaining understanding.

And so as we go through, I could show you in every aspect of your life, there's this universal applicability to these soft skills, these communication skills, this empathy, this emotional intelligence that accompanies your IQ.

That is so profound.

And you know, with interview coaching, and you prepare, we've all been through it where you prepare for your interview, you go through potential questions, you practice with Jay, you say, okay, ask me if you're in the interview panel, how would you feel if this and this happened and I'm practicing with you?

100%, however, as you said, reading the room is a skill that I cannot necessarily teach you, but it's something-

Or can you?

Or can you develop it?

I believe that we could break out the skills, asking questions, listening, and for anybody, and not to insult their intelligence, they know where this goes.

I think the ability to listen to be aware, you know, when you talk about emotional intelligence, the four key components, foundationally, there's empathy that has to exist.

Foundationally, you're looking at someone who's self-aware, can self-regulate, socially aware, and then relationship management.

So if you're in that interview, and I'll just go to the example you use, all of a sudden, some of the non-verbal cues.

So if somebody looks down, someone rolls their eyes, if they look away.

If you're looking for this, you're socially aware that, hey, there's a different behavior here than one that's interested, that's engaged, they're not smiling.

Then you'd be prompted to ask the person on the panel, tell me what you're thinking.

I'd love to get some feedback before we proceed in the interview as far as how I'm communicating and how well I'm answering your questions.

I saw you kind of look to the side.

What other information could I give you?

That's somewhat the high emotional intelligence.

They're reading the room, they're identifying, they're understanding, and they're adjusting their behavior.

They're not only self-aware and can self-regulate, they're socially aware.

Socially aware.

I'm thinking of the parallel in the workplace if you're a leader and you have a team.

We're gonna talk about conflict as well, the work you do with leaders.

If one of your team members comes to you with a problem, do you just listen to the surface level of what they say?

Cause sometimes we don't say what we mean.

There's a lot of layers underneath that.

Do you just handle what you heard them say so they can leave your office and everybody carries on with work?

Or do you even have time to do that?

To read the room, to read the environment and say, wait a minute, there's something more going on here than just Roberta missing her deadline.

So there's a piece of work I do where I teach organizations this art and science of coaching.

And there is a science, there's a neuroscience to it.

The art is in how you communicate.

And you ask, is there time, there's a style of communication that's actually more efficient.

And you have shorter, more productive, more energizing conversations.

Imagine a conversation where someone comes to you and they say, you know what, Roberta, you're just a horrible boss.

So you're thinking, wow, okay, there's layers to that, right?

Like what else is going on?

Is that something person, right?

But I'm giving you extreme situation that someone would say, okay, I don't know, it's the end of the day, if we have time to talk about this.

Sounds like there's a lot going on.

Let's pick up this conversation.

Do I just deal with that?

Or is it something deeper, right?

Everything you just ask.

And so when you look at the science of coaching, and I know the term is used in a lot of situations, from an academic standpoint, with the coaching, this would be an example, is if I said to you, Roberta, you are the worst boss, you're a horrible boss in the heat of the moment.

I would say it sounds like something's missing in my style for you, Jay.

What would you like to see different?

I didn't defend and explain, and that's human tendency.

You go, I'm not the worst boss, you should have seen the person I work for.

And then the person defends and explain.

They go, well, you should have seen the boss I had before you, because we have this mirror neuron in our brain.

What you do to me, I do to you.

Defend and explain, I'll defend and explain.

The alternative is to acknowledge and question, not validate.

I'm not validating saying I'm a terrible boss.

I mean, I feel that way.

I'm just acknowledging, it sounds like something's missing in my style.

What would you like to see differently?

And so it allows you in the moment to have the conversation.

There's no conversation that's too, too big.

I don't believe, and by the way, there will be exceptions for anyone's listening.

I'm just sharing that we categorically sometimes conversations that we don't feel comfortable having, or we may perceive as confrontation.

We say that's too big a conversation.

Or we call them tough conversations and say, we're going to teach you how to make tough conversations easier.

Yeah, and by the way, there's great books on tough conversations, fierce conversations, and I love the content.

I just feel as though what I would love to shift people's thinking is that a conversation is just a conversation.

That's all it is.

And if you can develop a comfort level in asking questions and listening and communicating from the other person's perspective, everything's a conversation.

That what I just described to you, people would describe as confrontation.

By the way, people have said to me, they go, Jay, I think conflict is good.

I do as well.

I think conflicting opinions and perspectives are highly valuable.

The way I differentiate between confrontation and conflict is how you respond to that conflict can become a confrontation.

Right?

So in the example I gave you that you're a horrible boss.

If it escalate, hey, you're being disrespectful.

I'm not the worst boss now.

It's becoming a confrontation.

But that person just has a conflicting perspective.

You may not feel that way about yourself.

Right?

So it's just, how do we have a conversation?

You know what?

You just say, hey, Jay, it sounds like something's missing.

Tell me what's missing for you.

And I might say, well, you know what?

You don't consider perspective other than your own.

And now you get this feedback, right?

And it's information and data for you to improve your performance for that person.

And you might go, you know what?

There may be some truth to that, Jay.

It's not the first time I've heard it.

So you would ask them, what could I do so that you felt differently about my communication sound?

They said, well, you can start off with just saying, hey, Jay, before I share my perspective, what was your perspective on what happened with the client?

And I would love to shift people's thinking that there is no fierce conversations.

I've heard people say, come to Jesus conversations.

Now you're setting it up, right?

In your mind that it is going to be this heightened conversation when really, it could just be an exercise for you to acknowledge and question, get feedback.

And ultimately the most effective communicators communicate from the other person's perspective.

You can't do that until you first understand it.

The way you're going to understand it is by asking questions.

And speaking of the questions, here's what I noticed.

And you asked two different questions, but they all started with the what question word, not the why.

I love that you picked that up.

Why do you say that?

It's very different from what would you like to see?

Yeah, go ahead.

There's some science behind it.

So this is where I share with you coaching.

There is some neuroscience.

When you ask a why question, one, it puts a person on the defensive.

Why didn't you get that reported in time?

Why were you late?

Why did you say that?

You could see in your personal and professional relationships that generally puts people on the defensive.

You could say, why didn't you take the trash?

I mean, you preface it with why it puts people on the defensive.

The emotional brain hijacks the rational brain.

It's a life or death situation.

They want, right?

Fight or flight or freeze could be the other scenario.

Why questions also take you back in time.

So if you said to me, Jay, why wasn't that report on time?

I go, well, earlier this week, someone else asked me to do something, and then I had to do that for them first.

They needed it right away.

They're going back in time.

The past.

Yes.

And they're focusing on the problem.

So it puts people on the defensive.

It takes you back in time, and it focuses on the problem.

When you ask a what question, instead of saying, why is the report late?

And you ask what needs to happen so that it can be on time, on our agreed upon time.

The what question is future based.

So what could we do in the future so that this report's in on time?

And it's solution based.

Now, instead of telling you why the report was late, they're going to tell you what needs to happen so that it's not late in the future.

And so this is what I'm saying, is when people say, why I don't have the time?

It's too big a conversation.

If you know how to have the conversation, you can have any conversation in any moment.

And it could be shorter, more productive, and more energizing for you.

All right, how many times have you, people who are listening have asked a why question, and you're like, oh my God, this, I don't care.

Now you have to, this is not even what I wanted.

And the person goes deep into it.

Well, it was last Tuesday, and then so-and-so came to my door, and then they didn't even knock on the door.

They just walked in, then they started talking about their, and you're like, oh my God, I'm not interested.

Well, you asked a why question.

That's where the brain went.

If you'd asked what needs to happen, the brain has the ability to time travel.

That's why you can ask a question.

It takes it back in time.

You can ask a question that takes it future-based.

And this is when I talk about coaching, there is a science, there is a neuroscience behind what you do.

And some people interpret the coaching as, well, there's several definitions.

They've seen it played out several ways in life.

There is a science and it's really designed to help people discover what they already know, the pure science of coaching.

And so I'll differentiate between coaching, consulting, counselor, critic, cheerleader, those are all the Cs.

They're different skill sets, different.

However, we have a tendency to group them all under coaching, and they're different skill sets.

And speaking of coaching, when you coach your leader clients, what is the thing about feedback that makes a lot of leaders struggle and to basically give effective feedback?

Because like I talk about the future solutions, how should feedback be given so that it's future solution driven?

Because I think a lot of it, sometimes that's where the struggle is.

I think that feedback is, I'm not going to say it's the single most important thing in your business.

It is the single most important thing for whatever is most important to you.

To get whatever initiative you have.

So whether you're increasing prices, you're downsizing the organization, you're strategically going a different way, is that you're getting feedback and that you're getting it early and you're getting it often.

So if I can backtrack a little bit, I would like to offer my definition of feedback because I think it's important how you define feedback.

And I will ask people, how do you feel about feedback?

And Roberta, you can guess their response.

It depends.

And what does it depend on?

What do you think?

What you're looking for at that moment.

Yeah.

And most people will say, most people are looking for positive.

So they're saying it depends on whether it's good or bad.

If I could shift your thinking, that feedback is what it is.

It's not good or bad.

It's what you do with it.

And so when I work with groups, the number one area that we start at is shifting their thinking by redefining feedback.

And I define it this way, is it's just simply information and data to improve your performance for that person.

And the last part is an imperative part of the definition, because what it does if it's just for that person, I don't have to determine whether it's true or not, whether it's valid or not.

If you say to me, Jay, you need to speak in a softer voice, that's information and data to improve my performance for you.

I don't need to emotionally get involved.

I don't need to determine it's right or wrong.

You've just given me information and data to improve my performance for you.

If you want me to listen, you need to speak slower.

You need to speak softer.

If someone says, you know what, you need to net-net what you're going to say.

You just talk too much.

Some people go, why got negative feedback?

Information and data improve my performance for that person.

They want me to speak faster, and they want me to get to the point quicker.

Who is right, the first example or the second?

They're both right for that person.

Yeah, it's not an either or.

That's where I want to shift people's thinking.

So when you ask why people don't seek feedback, the number one reason is I may not like it.

If I'm afraid if it's negative, then what do I do?

Yes, go ahead.

But what if it's not negative?

If you said to me, you know what, Jay, I don't think you're a very good speaker.

I did not enjoy the podcast.

If I let my emotions get involved, I get hurt, right?

Of course.

I go, well, you know, it's the same content I've always done.

And the reason that we do take feedback personal, it generally has to do with our work, our belief system or our values.

So that's understandable.

If you can understand that's what's going on, it's not an attack.

And so I just say to you, Roberta, is it sounds like you look for something different in your guest.

Was it what I said?

Was it how I said it?

Was it when I said it?

And you said, you know, Jay, it wasn't what you said.

I mean, the content was good.

And it wasn't when you said it, you know, you didn't interrupt me.

It's just how you said it had a very judgmental, condescending tone to it.

That's information and data.

I could do another podcast to go, you're great.

You're really great.

You know, we loved how authoritative you were and how direct you were in your approach.

It varies from person to person.

That's all it is.

As a society, this is how we function.

And the quicker we have it, the quicker we can improve our performance.

Because now we know the impact we have.

It's the impact, yes.

Yeah.

If you're not doing a good job, Roberta, at what point do you want to know?

Would you want to know a day later?

Immediately would help, but on a regular basis, so that I improve.

Because when you find out at the end of the year during a performance review that I've been doing a terrible job for 12 months, are you kidding?

Yes, and by the way, I ask people, how often do you get feedback?

Their number one answer when I get my review.

So you go 12 months.

Let me ask you this, I equate feedback to a GPS system.

A GPS just gives you information and data.

It either validates you go in the right direction, or lets you know if you're going the wrong direction, how you can get there quicker, faster, better.

So Roberta, if you're leaving your house, and you're going to be going the wrong way, would you want to know before you left the house, before you left your complex?

It will save time, it will save me gas, it will get me there on time.

Feedback is the same way.

It will save us time, it will save effort, it will save frustration.

I ask people, they say, well, I know they like me, I know that they feel good about this.

They say, how do you know?

They say, well, I just know.

How many times, and maybe not you, but I know I do it, and for the listeners, do you use your GPS even when you know where you're going?

Creature of habit?

It's this validation.

There's places I've been dozens of times, I still put it on.

Here's why.

One, either validation, I'm going the right way.

Two, like people, things change.

What if there's a road shutdown?

What if there's a new road?

What if there's a traffic?

It redirects you.

It's very good with that.

People are the same way with feedback.

So even when I believe things are going quote unquote well and according to plan, I still check for feedback.

It's just information and data.

Hey, I just want to see where are you as far as our thinking for this project?

I'm good.

I'm still tracking with you.

All right, great.

Just like my GPS.

Yep, I'm still going the right direction.

He's not going to say make a U-turn.

No, but there have been times where I thought I was going the right way, and my GPS says make a left here.

I'm like, what?

Like, I'm so sure.

How many times as leaders, though, have we been so sure there are people like us, they're with us?

We have buy-in, we have commitment, right?

And then all of a sudden, something happens, and you go, well, I had compliance.

I didn't have commitment.

And this is why I think that feedback may not be the single most important thing.

It is the single most important thing that you can do for whatever is most important to your organization.

However, here's the nuance when I work with organizations is that I want to help them build a culture of asking for feedback.

There's a lot of work out there on how to give feedback.

I want your priority to be that we develop a culture of asking for feedback, whether you're a leader, whether you're a midline manager, whether you're new to the company, whether you're a CEO.

This is to develop a culture of where you're asking for feedback first and foremost, instead of waiting for feedback.

Ask for it so you don't wait 12 months.

Thank you so much for sharing these strategies, and especially for leaders with us.

But more than anything, like you said, these skills are universal across the board, the human skills.

We really appreciate you taking the time to be here.

And by the way, you're an amazing guest.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you for the feedback.

I shouldn't say thank you.

Yes, for the feedback, yes.

Yes.

And before you go, you've given me your website details.

I'm going to put them on the show notes so that if any of our listeners want to contact you, they can find you.

Thank you so much for being here today.

I've had such an amazing time with you.

Thanks for trusting me with your audience.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

Thank you for joining us on the Speaking and Communicating Podcast once again.

Please log on to Apple and Spotify, leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss on the show that will be of benefit to you.

We encourage you to continue to get communicating and let us know how communication skills continue to improve your life professionally and personally.

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