Speaking and Communicating Podcast

I am your host, Roberta Ndlela.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.

Communication and soft skills are crucial for your career growth and leadership development.

And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review.

Now, let's get communicating with Debra Boggs, who is an award-winning entrepreneur.

She's an international speaker and expert in executive career growth.

She helps you with C-level job search and board candidate best practices.

Debra is a member of the Forbes Business Council, and she's here to talk to us about differences when you write resumes, for instance, between a regular job and a board seat or an executive leadership job.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show.

Hi, Debra.

Hi, Roberta.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

I'm excited that you are here.

Welcome.

Thank you for accepting the invitation.

You're going to be the first guest that is going to take us to board level, because we've only gone to the C-suite before, so I'm really excited about our conversation.

I am, too.

But before we get into that, please tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, thanks so much.

So I founded and now run DNS Executive Career Management, and our firm really works with VP to board level leaders to help them prepare for and navigate their high-level searches.

So we're not a search firm.

We don't do placements, but I like to tell people, we're like the home stagers to make a luxury property look expensive before it goes on the market.

Oh yeah, staging.

Yeah, absolutely.

So that's what we do, and we work with people in all industries, and it's really more about the level and the complexity of the career.

And it's a lot of fun because it's like mini TED Talks every day, listening to people talk about their careers or industries, the struggles, the challenges that are going on, things like that.

And it certainly could make a TED Talk because that's literally saying this is what's going on, this is where I am, and this is what I need to get to, and what are the strategies to get there?

And that's when Debra kicks it.

Absolutely, yep.

And how did you get started on this?

Did you have a career before being in your business, doing what you do now?

I did, I had a career.

You know, it's interesting.

I wound around a little bit before I really nailed down into this work, but I really started, I had a career in higher education and in corporate training, business development.

And I really always loved the, I'm a resume writing nerd, right?

I tell people my job exists because people hate writing the resumes, and I have actual dreams about formatting documents and editing bullets.

So anyway, because I had a great career, I was vice president of business development for an online training company, but I really loved writing resumes.

And I started doing it on the side, really more as a passion project.

And it snowballed and took over my life.

It was not intended to be a business when I started.

It was really more of just a work that really gave me a lot of passion and purpose.

But we decided, I say we, my husband and I decided to take the plunge, make it a business, see what it could be if I really focused on it full-time.

And we've been incredibly lucky.

And really through this work, I found that there was a huge gap in the market and the need for candidates at the executive level.

Because the executive search and the board search are totally different than a search at any other level.

And the way you show up and the way you communicate your value is different.

And I wasn't seeing enough advice online or any of the master classes and things like that that really spoke to the unique needs of an executive search.

So this is where I niche down into really focusing in the board and executive space a few years ago.

And that's really been a really great growth point for us to really focus in.

That is absolutely amazing.

And I'm glad that you're here and you'll give us more of those strategies.

But just to take time to appreciate the fact that you found something you love, and it really just pulled you in that direction.

Because a lot of us, what we dream about, we dream of doing work we love and making money out of that.

Then it doesn't feel like work even.

Thank you, yeah, I've been incredibly lucky.

It's, you know, being able to take a passion project and a side hustle and turn it into full-time and now turn it into a firm that is really well-respected in our industry.

I have an amazing team, it is not just me.

I have an amazing team nationwide and in Puerto Rico and Canada, you know, small team.

There's about 12 of us, but really passionate leaders in our space who are all really excited about the work that they do too.

So we get to all nerd out together every day.

Yeah, nerd out together, I like that.

So now let's talk about, you said an executive search is different from a regular professional job, that a person is looking for a job.

So first and foremost, what does a resume look like for an executive versus a regular professional, so to speak?

I'm gonna use that phrase.

Yeah, absolutely.

So the biggest difference, there's a couple of differences.

It's interesting, when I work with my executive candidates, a lot of times, they've really had a great career.

They've built their career through their network, through getting promoted, through getting recruited, and they've never needed a formal executive level resume before.

And I can tell when they send me their resume, and it's the exact same format they were using when they got out of college or business school, and they've just been adding jobs to it every year, right?

Maybe taking the earliest stuff off, but not really, but there's not really a lot of thought into their executive brand, their unique value, things like that.

And so what I tell my executive candidates is the competition is much higher for an executive role than it is for any other role.

If you think about a large corporation may have a hundred people in their marketing team, they only have one chief marketing officer.

And so the opportunities are limited.

And at that level, to be qualified for those roles, you have to be highly accomplished.

And so everyone you're going up against for a C level role or a VP level role is highly accomplished.

And so how do you stand out?

How do you communicate your value differently?

And the first thing I suggest is to get really hyper focused and clear about your ideal next opportunity.

And this really does play into the resume because without being super clear about the type of company you want to serve, the type of function you want to lead, the environment you do your best work in, size of company, things like that, industry, all of these things without really understanding that, then you can't write a value proposition that speaks to the needs of that industry.

So starting there really helps.

And I know we could really go deep into a lot of things, but I'll stop there.

No, that's totally fine.

And you can go on if you wanted to, because I'm wondering if when you say that, how you see the role if you are placed in that position, if you haven't been there yet, do you know what that is going to look like?

Yeah, you may not know what it looks like yet, but you can think about the ideal.

When I talk to my clients, I say what is the perfect opportunity if the absolute perfect opportunity came across your desk?

What does that look like?

Maybe it doesn't exist yet.

Maybe you haven't held that role yet, but what kind of a company, what kind of an environment, what are the things you'd be leading, what are some of the projects you'd be in charge of?

And then when you think about your resume, you want to think about really focusing it on the future then.

Because we think about our resumes and sometimes it's a list of everything we've ever done.

But the executive level, that's a long list, and that's a lot of things, right?

And if you're at that cusp of your career where you're really at the maybe thinking about you breaking into the executive level, you've still done a lot of different things and you can do a lot of things.

So you want to think about what on your resume will you include that advances your story and advances your narrative to the type of professional you are today and where you're headed in the future, and not everything you've ever done.

And so we don't have to list everything we've ever done.

We don't have to list our internships or our earliest roles, or we can just have maybe a couple of lines saying, you know, held roles as a marketing strategist for XYZ company.

You don't have to go into deep detail.

What you do want to focus on is the most recent work.

You know, you want to think about your real estate on your resume, on the most recent work in the highest level role, the highest level work you've done.

And maybe that's, you know, you want to think about the impact that you've brought.

It's not just a list of everything you've done or the things that fell under your purview or your day to day stuff, because again, that's going to be table stakes for everybody else applying for those roles.

They're going to have held similar roles with similar responsibilities.

But what did you do that moved the needle that drove an impact that had a tangible result for the organization?

And that's where we want to focus, because I see so many people start their resumes out with 25 years of experience leading, you know, business operations in the finance industry.

Well, what do you do with those 25 years?

25 years isn't isn't impactful at all.

Everyone else with 25 years has that, too.

So what are you doing in those years?

What are you doing in those roles that helps move the needle?

And you really want to focus on that to stand out.

Something quantifiable to say they were making half a million, and when I came in, it became a million kind of thing.

Absolutely.

And then how do you craft your value proposition so you stand out from any other potential candidate?

Yeah, such a great question and something we could talk all night about, I'm sure.

But the thing I start with is, again, really clear about the industry and the type of organization, and then you want to think about, okay, what are the unique challenges to that industry right now?

Or what do they struggle with?

Or what do they typically need help with?

Or where do you really shine?

Where is the work that you're typically uniquely equipped to handle in your current roles, or what really excites you?

And then you can think of...

So then your formula for your unique value proposition can be providing XYZ value for this industry by doing these things.

So maybe it could be driving business growth for the e-commerce industry by...

I'm talking out loud here, but by increasing customers, lifetime customer value, things like that.

But you want to really focus it to that industry and not make it general.

Yes, as you were just making an example with the 25 years in finance, it sounds like everybody else could fit into that.

And then when it comes to, as you said, so that's the executive level, that's the VP, that's the C-suite.

The board is a different ball game.

It is.

How do you then move from or how do you make the company select you and say, you know what, we want you to have a board seat where we meet like three, four times a year and strategize on the big picture of where this organization is going.

How do they select those types of people?

Yeah, so in terms of how they select, it's typically done through networking.

You know, the best data that we can find, there's not really great data on this, especially in the private sector.

But only about 15 percent of corporate board seats are filled through board level recruiters.

And then the other 85 percent are typically through network.

So having a really deep network in the industry you're looking at serving or that you're uniquely equipped to serve will really help in landing that first board seat.

When you think about the skills, your skills are going to be a little different.

You still want to be, and the same thing I tell my board level candidates is get really clear on the focus first.

And then we can think about the skills and the unique value.

But when it comes to the board level skills, they're going to be a little different because what got you to the C-suite or VP in a high level company is going to be different than what gets you in the board seat.

Because in the C-suite, you're driving things, right?

You're leading the people.

You're leading the charge.

You're moving the ball forward.

You're a doer.

You're action-oriented.

In the board seat, it's different.

You're going to be an advisor and an influencer, and what they need from you is going to be different.

And so you're being brought in to advise the C-level team on strategy and influence, and not necessarily physically doing.

And so you want to think about those high level skills that you bring to the table.

So things like some things that help you stand out as part of your question, how do you stand out as a board member?

Things could be global experience, anything international.

If you've helped a company go through an exit, an M&A, a divestiture, maybe a transformation or a turnaround, an IPO, all of those things help stand out too.

The Spencer Stewart Board Index is something that comes out yearly.

It just came out a couple of weeks ago.

And it shows the data on the newest board members for companies in the S&P 500.

It's only public companies, but it gives us a good indication of what's going on in the larger market.

And what this newest report said is that people with deep financial acumen, so CFOs, things like that, are really attractive to boards right now, and then people that have held the CEO space.

So those are the two C-level roles that translate into board seats more often, specifically right now.

The finance-related executive and the CEO are the ones that usually become board members.

As I was trying to say earlier, that it sounds like the board is more the, it's not just the technical expertise or that you're expecting one thing, but overall, seeing the organization, money is the first thing.

That's why you can understand why they look for former CFOs to move them to the board seats.

So which means it kind of, it's more a strategic, yes, even the executive ones are strategic roles, but I think it's an even bigger scale of strategic role.

Certainly, it's highly strategic, less about doing, more about driving strategy and advising on the future.

And there are a couple of other functions that make it into the board room that are desirable as well.

So regulatory or compliance expertise is one of them.

One of them that is really big right now is just wanting the board members to have at least a basic acumen in cybersecurity.

So most boards now will want at least one cybersecurity expert, but then they may also want the other people on the board to have at least a base level understanding.

Yes, because the whole world is moving towards the tech space.

And then when it comes to, are you saying that head hunters, a lot of them, not a high percentage at least, you don't have a lot of head hunters finding candidates for board seats.

So it's mostly networking in which, as you said earlier, you can get into the space.

Yes.

So there are some that are filled through executive search firms, and some of the search firms have board practices.

But I tell my candidates, that can be one channel for your search, but you really want to focus on a deep industry network because that's where most of the opportunities are.

So yeah, absolutely, it's going to be heavily networking.

So not big on LinkedIn as well for board seats.

No, not at all.

In fact, what I see on LinkedIn for board seats are typically phishing for people to join their board matching programs, which like if there's a board platform that says like, you know, get on my platform and I'll find you a board seat.

That's usually what I see on LinkedIn.

There aren't the most companies are not going to post a seat on.

I can imagine.

Yeah, that that just doesn't sound as realistic.

Now, let's talk about negotiating your salary.

Our favorite topic.

Absolutely.

I love it.

It's been a topic of conversation all week this week, actually.

So now first, let's talk about the we'll get to the board role eventually.

But now let's talk about just basic when you have a candidate and they are going to a certain career direction.

How do they negotiate pay?

Because usually we've accused companies of low bowling and giving you the least that they can.

Yeah, you know, there's a couple of ways.

The number one thing is I was talking to a candidate this week who got an offer.

And she called me and she said, you know, I got an offer.

And actually, it's a great offer.

They gave me a range in the beginning and they came in at the top of the range.

You know, the bonus structure looks good.

And she said, I'm really happy with it.

And I said, that's amazing.

And what are we going to ask for?

And she said, well, I don't really feel like I have any room to ask for anything because they gave me what I, you know, what I was hoping for.

And I said, well, but at the at this level, at the leadership level, they're going to expect you to come back with a counter offer.

And the worst they can do is say no.

But at least we can we can ask for a couple of things in here and see, you know, what they come back with.

So I love that you're happy with the base salary.

You're happy with the bonus.

Where are some other areas we can look at?

One of the areas I always suggest people in the leadership levels look at is asking for a severance agreement upfront.

And the reason is that protects you in case of an exit, an M&A, a new CEO coming in and changing direction or changing, you know, wanting their whole a whole new team.

All of these things could happen that are outside of your control.

And you want to make sure that you're protected on the back end.

If you lose your job for whatever reason that has nothing to do with your performance.

So that's one of the things that people don't always know you can ask for, but really gives you peace of mind and protection if something happens.

And then the other piece, you know, for her, what she ended up getting, we went back and said, you know, we asked for severance.

And again, the offer was great to start with.

We'd asked for severance and they came back and said they can't do severance, but they offered her additional equity.

So she was able to get something out of it that she would not have gotten otherwise had she not asked.

So even if you're happy with the first offer, know that that's not the final offer.

And you can definitely keep going.

And I'm sure there's a certain level of respect when you show them that, hey, wait a minute, I'm not desperate enough to take the first thing you're giving me.

Exactly, exactly.

You know what I mean?

So yes, you can negotiate, like you said, leadership, there's potential equity as well.

And when you get offered a board seat, are board members paid the same?

Because they, you know, like I said, they meet at certain hours of the certain days of the year and everything.

Is it something you can negotiate?

That's a really great question.

So a paid board seat, like a formal corporate board seat with fiduciary responsibility, the type of board that we typically think of, you can't negotiate.

What you get is what you get, and everybody typically gets the same.

What you can negotiate is if you're looking at a board advisory seat, and that would be more informal board seat for maybe a startup or a midsize company that isn't quite ready for a formal board.

They're still privately owned, but maybe they're PE backed, but they want advisors kind of on the sidelines to help guide the founder or the CEO.

In those cases, they're much less regulated, and you can negotiate typically for equity.

Right.

And I'm sure that by the time you reach that level, obviously, you know how to sell yourself, how to communicate your unique developer position.

And, you know, as we were talking earlier, so you know how to literally sell yourself at that point.

And hopefully, you do.

And if you don't, call us.

But typically, it's like, yeah, you have to think about yourself as a product on the market, right?

They are bringing someone on to solve a problem or fill a need that they have.

And how are you uniquely equipped to solve that problem or fill that need?

Right.

Now, let's talk about your membership on the Forbes Business Council.

How did that happen?

Oh, thank you so much.

You know, it happened.

So it's very recent.

So thank you so much.

I joined just a few months ago, actually.

And, you know, have you heard the saying, you surround yourself with people who would say your name in a room full of opportunities?

Oh, that's beautiful.

It is.

And I think about that all the time, you know, surround yourself with people that have your back, that want you to win, that want to see you succeed, that you don't have to dim your light around.

And I have been so blessed to have some colleagues and some friends that just are outstanding.

And so I have a friend, Gina Riley.

I'll do a shout out.

She's a career transformation coach.

And she recently joined the Forbes Coaches Council.

And she called me and said, you know, I joined the Forbes Coaches Council.

It's amazing.

You should think about joining.

And to be honest with you, I said, well, I've actually applied a couple of times, and I keep getting denied, actually, for whatever reason.

You know, and I tried a couple of years ago.

I quit trying.

I thought, I'm not cool enough for that crowd, I guess.

I'll just keep moving on.

And she said, well, I'd be happy to nominate you from the inside and see if it opens the door.

And she did.

And she nominated me, and then it led to an interview.

Instead, I had just applied online and got automatically rejected.

But she nominated me.

I got an interview, and then they ended up accepting me to the business council.

And so that was through just having an amazing friend who saw an opportunity, sought me out, and said, you should think about this for yourself.

Absolutely amazing.

I love that.

Good friend, Gina Riley.

Shout out to you.

The first thing from that story is my pleasure.

Congratulations, Debra.

The first thing is, as you said, the people you surround yourself with.

We usually just say this in passing and say, oh, look at the five people that you surround yourself with.

But we don't specifically say what impact them being in your life should have.

We also just check the people you surround yourself with.

If you're not winning here, check the people you surround yourself with.

But I love how you articulate that they should want you to win.

And when they find an opportunity they think you're suited for, they will call you up and recommend you.

That's so beautiful.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's definitely something that, especially people starting out in business, it's lonely.

And to surround yourself with other people who are either going through the same struggle or want you to succeed or want to be your cheerleader, you can do that for them too, is so much more empowering than a group where you're either complaining all the time or you don't want to brag so you keep it to yourself.

You know, you want to be with people that are excited for you.

Yes, like you said, you don't have to dim your light.

And then the second thing from your story is that people want to work with people they like, know, and trust.

The fact that they didn't even give you an interview when you're applying on your own and gave it to you because they know Gina is testament to the fact that because they trust her and she's proven herself there, they would listen to anybody that she brings along.

Absolutely.

That's such a great point.

Because before, they didn't know, they didn't give you a chance because they didn't know you at all.

And that's why, you know, that really translates to the executive search process, too.

Really focus on networking and not applying online.

You know, I see a lot of executives try to apply online for jobs, but again, the competition is huge.

You're not able to stand out.

People don't understand your unique value.

But if you network into an opportunity, then they know you.

You know, it's warmer.

A lot of people will say, well, yeah, you know, I must not be qualified or I must not have the qualifications because I keep getting turned down.

And I say, no, it's because no one's actually seeing you.

We need to think about the search differently.

And you're right.

It's the exact same thing that I did.

Right.

Because in online, they can't put the voice and the face to the name, to the resume.

And that's why they just the quickest way, quickest thing to do is just reject it.

And yeah, people really, this is really testament to the fact that those principles are true.

And then do you have any last words for anyone who is one, considering an executive position on how they should package their value proposition?

Yeah, for the value proposition, just, you know, a lot of people, and I know we've talked about this a lot, but I think a lot of people don't want to cut themselves off from opportunities, so they try to stay really, really general.

And they want to stay general because they don't want to get pigeonholed too much, or they don't want to not be considered for things.

But really, you've got a better chance of getting attention for a role if you really drill down into your exact opportunity.

Because people want to know what box you fit in, so sometimes people will send me something on LinkedIn and say, send me a message and say, I'm looking for a new role, and I could do this, or I could do that, or I could do this, or I'm really great at this, and we've got all these things.

It's like 17 paragraphs long.

And then I get overwhelmed and I stop reading it.

But if someone came and said, you want to make it easy for people, I want to do XYZ for this industry and this type of company, and making it really clear, then people can help you.

People know where you belong, and people know where you can add value, and they don't have to figure it out.

Because very few people are going to spend the time to figure out what box you fit in, where you can add value.

You need to be really specific with them.

I think it's the mentality of thinking, I'm just going to throw mud on the wall and hope it sticks somewhere and get a job.

When we do that whole thing.

Yes, because it's the same thing they say about coaching.

They say, you know, they say, find a niche.

And you think, so that means a whole other people will not be buying my stuff.

No, no, no, I want to sell to everybody.

You know, I think that's how they come across as well.

When they say, I can do everything.

Right.

Whereas that actually works against you.

Rather be specific so that they know exactly where you're going to fit.

And then what about in the last words for anyone who needs to network enough for hopefully one day securing a board level seat?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I like to think about, you know, where are the people you need to meet?

Who are making these decisions?

So the C level teams, maybe other board members of the companies, things like that.

You want to think about your ideal companies and where are those people hanging out?

What conferences are they going to?

What professional organizations are they part of?

You know, are they, you know, where are they hanging out?

And so that way, you can start being where they are, meet people organically.

And that way, when you are ready to start your search and activate your search and really ask for something, you've met them already.

You're not just starting out from scratch.

People have met you in a way that's a little more authentic before you actually meet it.

It's a lot harder to say, okay, I want to start a board search, but you don't have a network.

It's a lot easier to have a network and then say, now I'm open.

Right.

And just like Debra, you can have a friend who is in a circle who will realize what your potential is and show you what the opportunities are.

Excellent stuff.

Thank you very much.

You have been so awesome in sharing all these strategies with us.

Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Thank you, Roberta.

It was really fun.

Thanks a lot.

I had fun as well, and it's my pleasure.

But before you go, where can we find you online?

Yeah, so find me on LinkedIn.

I post a ton of content and tips for executive job seekers and board search, you know, board candidates.

And so on LinkedIn, it's Debra Boggs, D-E-B-R-A-B-O-G-G-S, and my company, DNS Executive Career Management.

You can find us online, learn more about us and our team at dscareermanagement.com.

dscareermanagement.com.

Debra Boggs on LinkedIn.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Roberta.

I really appreciate the opportunity.

My absolute pleasure.

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