Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast. My name is Roberta, and this week I am back with Jaekun Cho. He's actually a friend of mine, and we've been friends for years since I lived in South Korea. He is a project manager for a construction services company. And before we go any further, let me give him a chance to introduce himself. Hi, Jaekun. Hello. Thank you for inviting me on your podcast.
00:27
Today I wanted us to discuss the cultural and communication differences between the Eastern culture and the Western culture. I know you grew up in the U.S., right? Only during my childhood years, yes, through elementary school. And I have lived in South Korea since middle school. So that would be little less than 30 years in Korea now.
00:49
And then where you work right now, some of your previous jobs as well, I believe, you have worked with both Korean people and people from the US or other Western cultures, is that right? Yes, correct. For the most part, I was surrounded mostly by Korean, Korean people. But I did have a significant amount of experience with people from Western cultures, like the United States or Europe, and some experience with...
01:17
people from Southern Asia and the Middle East. When you look at the cultural differences, first let's talk about the communication aspect. In corporate America or in South Africa, for instance, let me talk about my experience just to give an example.
01:31
When you express your ideas to your boss, even if they're different from what he thought, usually you're applauded because a win for the team is a win for the entire company and everybody makes money and you get a bigger bonus. Is that a similar situation in South Korea? I want to say no, but at the same time, I must
01:52
out a disclaimer before I go any further that before I joined my current company, I was a freelancer or to put it bluntly, I was unemployed for five years. And I realized that the job market in Korea has changed a significant amount during that period. So I can't say I speak for all Korean companies, but I will speak from experience that I've had working for Korean corporations and even as an officer in the Korean Air Force.
02:22
Yes, as you have mentioned, in the West, it is not uncommon for people to expect feedback, whether it's for or against what the superiors have stipulated. And it is considered a positive thing because like you said, a win for the team is a win for everyone. Now, unfortunately, apply that in the corporate world in a culture that was based heavily on confusionistic ideologies.
02:52
someone who especially is a subordinate to speak up against what they have just said. Now I don't know how much of that is true in actual practice, but a theory of why some major catastrophes have happened in the past, for instance, a Korean airline, Korean air airliner crashing into the mountainside somewhere in Guam a few decades ago, that it was
03:16
due to a lack of communication between the co-pilot and the pilot. And the reason for the lack of communication between those was the co-pilot was afraid of challenging his superior's decision. I heard of the same incident in San Francisco that the co-pilot was younger. And as you say, the pilot was the superior. And even though he could see that he needed to do something different in order to avert a potential accident, he couldn't because of the hierarchy. I'm not aware about
03:45
the San Francisco one, if it involved Eastern Asian people, not just Korea, but since my experience is limited to Korea, I would say that yes, it would be highly possible, likely that if there were Koreans involved, that might've been the situation.
04:01
in general, you said it is changing with this generation or it has changed in the last few years. Right, because first of all, before culture plays a role in any aspects of society, it's mostly about survival. We all human beings, regardless of our cultural backgrounds, we do what we feel we think we believe is best for our survival and longevity and eventually quality of life. So to go into a little more background, after the Korean War, it's only been
04:29
just a little over half a century. And as everyone knows by now, no other country in the history of the world has ever bounced back so strong as Korea did from being a pile of rubble after a war into being one of the world's most powerful economic nations. On the glamorous side, yes, we are a very highly advanced industrial country, especially now we're even starting to sell our culture to the world, you know, shows on Netflix.
04:57
Pop groups, yes. It all seems like rainbows and butterflies, but the amount of effort and putting your head down and going with whatever you have was pretty much the norm in the working environment during that half century, because how else would people have been able to accomplish so much in such a little short amount? Right.
05:16
So it has its benefits in the sense that everybody just sells into this idea of working for the bigger whole. And you need that in order to build. Yes. And that's where the Confucianistic ideology actually shined. Because if all parts of the spoke were doing their own thing, then the wheel wouldn't have been... You weren't going to achieve what you did. Because everybody just put their head down and...
05:39
put the greater good ahead of themselves. Now it's not only the company, but it's also for their family. Because back then job security was very scarce. So if a new member of society, say in their early twenties, just out of college, somehow managed to find a job in a major corporation, it was unimaginable for that person to even consider leaving that job. So usually in during that generation, which is only maybe one or one and a half generation ahead of mine, if they somehow found a job in a major corporation, then that would be their last position.
06:09
They retired in the same company they first joined right out of college. But nowadays people move around. A lot of people skip around companies, don't really stay at one place long. And one of the major reasons is because of the lack of work-life balance. So I believe we're in a transition period where there's a mixture of the old world and the new. And the mixture, I believe it's something that in a way, you can't really call it unhealthy, because like we mentioned, there is a benefit to having all the people
06:39
being just very obedient, putting the whole before themselves. As I was about to say on that point as well, is even democracy has its downside, because there just comes a time when we're over the spectrum of just being selfish and everybody thinking for themselves. And then at the end of the day, we don't achieve much. There's always debates. Everybody's pulling on different sides, then nothing gets accomplished. So both systems, there are pros and there are cons as well. Yes, I believe so too. So if you try to look at one,
07:09
one aspect of a society, then it's easy to pinpoint what is bad about that society. But then if you look at it as a whole, there's definitely a reason why South Korea was able to rise from the ashes to such a powerhouse in such a short amount of time. Now, obviously, if what everybody's been doing in this culture was inefficient or ineffective, that would not have been achieved. It would not have happened. Here's how it was explained to me as well.
07:33
So after the Korean War, the UN basically has two columns. You have nations that need aid and you have nations that give aid. So after the war, South Korea, they were under the column of nations that need aid. Obviously, they did.
07:48
And they were one of the quickest nations to move columns, meaning move from, I'm a country that needs aid to the columns that they actually not give aid. South Korea was one of the quickest in history to change sides. That's a huge, huge accomplishment.
08:05
Yes, and one example of that is in my memory about a decade ago, I'm Catholic and I heard that the sole archdiocese was actually able to cover for the aid of the entire Southeast Asian sector for countries that require aid. So that's how well off...
08:26
this society has become. So like you said, we used to be one of those countries that needed aid and now we're actually able to give it. Very commendable, extremely. Now walk us through the second thing that I wanted us to touch on because it is part of communication, the respect aspect between both cultures, the East and the West. If I was raised in the Western culture and now we're going to work in South Korea, what are some of the things I need to be cognizant of when it comes to respect?
08:55
respecting other people? What should I know? What should I remember to do? Okay, that is actually a very difficult question given that we are in a transition period. So let's just talk in the last 10 years, for instance, because that's when we first met. Right. So what I was trying to say is that I can't think of any one rule at the moment. An easier way to approach this would be, so let's imagine we are 20 years ago, early 2000s or maybe even in the 90s. Then I could definitely say for sure.
09:24
that even if somebody says something that is wrong, you should do your best not to directly challenge them. And if you feel that it's something that is inevitable, you should do so in a way that you still somehow highlight how brilliant they are for having said such a thing. So you should never try to take someone's credit. That still applies anywhere, but what I mean is- That applies across the board, but I think we need- Of course, it's a clear cut. Let me be more specific with my question.
09:51
One, in Western culture, we respect everybody despite age. I have a baby brother, I'm 23 years older than him, old enough to be his mother. And I remember when he was in kindergarten, I had said something that offended him. We were in the car, we were driving home. And he said, sis, that hurts my feelings. I said, oh, pumpkin, I'm so sorry. I will never say that again. And I respect the fact that that's how you feel about the situation. You will never hear me mention it like this again.
10:19
So that means even me being 23 years old, I respect him. But when I was in South Korea, I remembered that even the lingo is different. If you talk to your peer, there's a bit of a casual tone versus speaking to someone old, even older by year, because that's the first thing they actually ask is how old are you? Once you introduce yourself, my name is Roberta. Where are you from? I'm from South Africa. How old are you? Whereas in Western culture, especially asking a woman her age, that's a no-no.
10:45
Right. I mean, even here asking a woman her age is also a no-no, but sometimes the need to place that person on a spectrum needs the need to be polite. If you're in a group and I need to get acquainted with all the people, it would be difficult for me to go to bed at night, not having placed a handful of those people on a certain spectrum so that I know how to address them, what tone to use when I speak to them, whether or not I will be direct with them or just bite my tongue when I'm speaking to them.
11:14
which I would say in Western culture, at least based on my experience, we don't go that deep into it because we just think however I address people, no matter what age, that's how I'm going to address them. It can differ obviously when I'm with my friends, I'm a different person versus when I'm in a professional setting. But in a professional setting, whether older or younger, you just think this is how I'm going to address the situation or how I'm going to interact.
11:38
with my colleagues. Right. But then of course, wherever we are, nobody likes being told that they are wrong or being challenged by someone, right? Because everybody still fears for their position and the survival instinct. Again, somebody snatching up their positions, their services are no longer required by the company. But I will say this in that interaction that you have told me as an example between your younger brother.
12:02
Whether it's a professional setting or just a private casual setting, if say in the traditionally Korean environment, the older person said something that hurt the feelings of the younger person and that younger person somehow expressed the fact that what you just said hurt my feelings, more often than not, the person, the superior, would not apologize for their behavior, but...
12:25
go as far as to say, look, I know what I just told you may be bitter, but it's advice and I'm teaching you about life. So it's a preparation and I'm responsible for- Yes, of course. The majority of the time when somebody resorts to that sort of excuse, it's usually BS. They just don't wanna admit that they made a mistake and they're hiding behind their badge per se of age, right? So if I'm 64 and you're 63, everything I say is okay.
12:51
And something you say, if it doesn't make me happy, then I can always call you out on it. My number is one bigger than yours. So whatever I say, you should suck it up. But if I'm not happy about something you say, I will be direct about it. It is a generational thing as well, not just a cultural thing. I'm 46. And so I'm looking at this new generation now. And I'm thinking of when I was a kid was that, first of all, when I was growing up, we all believed that our parents knew everything, everything they said was right. So we didn't challenge it.
13:20
nobody in my generation is our parents. But now these kids are very outspoken, you know, like I said with my baby brother, but I've noticed that in Western culture that they speak up to their elderly. In Korea, I found that it was still a thing in this. Let me give you another example. You know, when you stand on this whole subway, you stand behind the doors waiting for the train. If you're the first one, you're the first one to stand behind the doors and then everybody comes subsequently, they stand around behind you. And then when the train comes and the doors open,
13:50
They don't join the queue. When you watch around you, you can actually see that everybody else just lets them in. Isn't it a, oh, all the people are just like that, or is it an actual cultural expectation? I think it's a mixture of both because the older people, like we said, since South Korea has developed so much in a short span of time, the older generations...
14:12
may find it difficult to actually get accustomed to the new way of life. So it could also be that they are not aware that there is a cue and that's something that that's like an unspoken rule that you should abide by. But at the same time, it's also possible that these elderly people think that they deserve to walk outside of the boundaries of the rules because they are the elderly. After the sacrifices they made to live this legacy, you guys are enjoying now.
14:38
They're like, we've earned it. Not all of them come from such a noble place, but it's just more of a sense of entitlement. They sort of assume themselves just from the fact that they're probably older than most of the people around them.
14:52
Now, what you just said about how in the West, regardless of age, people speak up, now is the younger generations of today are actually becoming that. So the work environment is changing drastically because I'd say up till the time when I was fresh out of college, it was also not easy to imagine a subordinate speaking up against their superiors. So I also grew up in a generation where
15:16
where the randoms of the past were still pretty much in place. So we had to strictly obey our superiors, even when they were wrong. But I'd say the kids in their twenties nowadays, so that's like 20 years younger than I am. They tend to speak up a lot more. And I've heard so many stories of people more or less my age saying things like, oh, kids these days, they're impossible.
15:38
It's something that repeats itself every generation, not only in Korea, because wherever you go, a new generation, they have ways that the older generations just cannot fathom. Yes, they always bring something new to the mix. In the West, I think one thing that's especially prevalent, visual-wise, is the dress code of public figures. The way people dress on television in the past less than a century has drastically changed from not very revealing to very revealing, if not stark naked. So, every generation...
16:06
has their problems with the newer generations. Because of the stock differences between how they do things and how they present themselves. Speaking of dress codes, do you think based on your experience that, because I find that in Korea appearance is everything. Do you feel that in the West we're a bit slack when it comes to how we dress up and present ourselves in a professional setting? Because I found that in Korea, everybody always looks spectacular.
16:31
Now, I wouldn't really say that that is especially true in Korea as opposed to countries of the West. I mean, yes, it is true that Eastern cultures are more about saving face, so people care more about how they come off rather than how they actually are. But I believe it's more of a collectivistic mindset.
16:50
So it's not so much, I need to look my best for everyone. And of course that is still true in many people, but I don't think that's the dominant mentality. If everybody around me is neatly dressed and I'm the only one who stands out in a casual tone, I don't want that kind of attention. Just to fit in, they're doing that. Of course, there's still that, yes, I need to look my best for everyone because I need to save face, right? But I don't think that is a dominant.
17:16
motivation for people to dress up and wear thick makeup. They just don't want to be seen as a person who is behind the times. They need to be with the latest fashion. So even conversation, this is the reason why I believe it's not only about looks, because let's say we're talking about a specific drink that you can just buy off the shelf in any store.
17:35
One day I was having this conversation about this vitamin drink that's pretty popular in Korea. And I said that, oh yeah, so this A pharmaceutical company that manufactured this drink, I was talking about them and Midway, every single person in that group corrected me. No, actually that was made by B pharmaceuticals. So just the fact that everybody automatically knows the maker of a certain product is proof that people feel they need to stick with the times.
18:02
Don't get left behind. Who wants to be behind? Everybody's aware of everything, right? So if you're wearing clothes that were in fashion three months ago, and somebody tells you, hey, you're still wearing that, that automatically becomes your weakness. Of course, there's some exaggeration in what I just said. And now, like I said, because we're in the transition,
18:21
It's not so much anymore because nowadays you see a lot of women with curlers still in their hair on the subway because as long as they present themselves the way they want to present themselves to people they want to present themselves to. So women on the subway in the morning doing their makeup on the commute. Obviously they're showing a lot of random people passersby.
18:43
their bare face, arrive at their destination in their full makeup, it's no big deal. So it's not so much about saving face anymore. A lot of people in Korea nowadays are also being very individualistic, which I think is a pretty healthy mix at this point. Of course. Yeah, so going back to the corporate culture of not daring to challenge your boss, your superior.
19:05
It also goes back to how people feel pressured to deliver a certain level of achievements while they're in their position. So let's say someone who works for Samsung gets promoted to a member of the board. When you become a member of the board, you become a contractor. So every year they will evaluate your performance and decide whether they want to renew your contract or terminate it. Now, of course, if you work for Samsung, you still have that incentive. So if, even if they don't renew your contract, some other companies
19:35
want your experience from Samsung, they'll offer you a raise. But before we get into that, it's just that everybody wants to secure their spot as much as possible. Consequently, they want their name on a lot of achievements. So let's say I'm in this position for five years. The contract Do you think that influences why then they don't challenge? Is it back to that survival instinct? It's more about when the board member has a five-year contract that the company has hired them to
20:05
to make sure that their team members are people who will not waste their time. Productive feedback is not a waste of time, but for someone who is in a very rushed mindset, it may feel like a waste of time. They would preferably hire people who will just- Go with the flow. Go to speak. Just to get the mission accomplished. Be quiet. If I make a mistake, it's all on me. Don't think for yourself, just do what I tell you, because we've only got five years.
20:29
for me to accomplish my mission for five years is to come up with a product that can compete with say our competitors 20 years of free search. What is the one thing you can tell Westerners if they are thinking of going to work in South Korea? What's the one thing you would just like to tell them to be cognizant of in order to adapt? Right, so going back to the point that I was trying to make earlier.
20:54
That is actually literally an impossible question to answer simply in modern Korea because such a diverse mixture of people that you never know what you're gonna get. So I guess the one consistent rule that I would like to say is that just keep an open mind, don't have any expectations, keep an open mind and you've got to catch on with how the culture is in whichever company or group you end up joining and you have to act accordingly. So you gotta be a pragmatist.
21:23
Let's say you come to Korea expecting a very hierarchical culture and you don't speak up and you happen to land in a group where they actually expect you to speak up. Vice versa can also be true. Like you come in thinking, OK, I'm a Westerner, I'm just going to stick with my ways. And then you happen to join a very Korean group and they hate you for the way you are. Right. So be adaptable, read to the room and just go with the flow of where you find yourself. Keep an open mind, like you said. Yes.
21:50
And I would like to close with an example. About 15 years ago, I was able to speak with this woman from the United States through a group of friends. She was complaining about Korea, how among many things, when people bump into her on the street, they never apologize. They never say, excuse me, they just walk away. She just could not grasp the fact that people can be so rude. And I've tried and failed to point out to her that it's a different culture, because to her, having spent the majority of her life in the United States, to her understanding,
22:20
was human nature to apologize to someone when you run into them. And I tried to tell her it's not in this culture to say, excuse me, to anyone. It's actually a culture where saying anything to a stranger is something that's very awkward. So just the fact they they're not intending to walk away. That's actually a sign of an apology, but she couldn't imagine how that was true. Yeah. I would just like to say, like, if you go to some tribes in their culture, it is a polite thing to spit on someone's face. Right.
22:47
And if you express disgust over that, that is considered rude. So if some of that culture came to any country and impose that culture on the people, they're going to piss off a lot of people. That's a no-no. You got to keep an open mind. You got to let go of all of your beliefs on what you've learned in your culture. Now, obviously it's still not the right to kill people or harm people unnecessarily. Right? So as long as you stick to those basic human rights.
23:15
the example you gave. Just keep an open mind.
23:18
read the room, understand the environment in which you work and adapt to that. Obviously don't let go of the personality and who you are. Actually adapt and learn to understand the motivation behind what they do and not jump into conclusions or being offended immediately. Because I think that benefits you more than even the people that you have come to work with. You will realize that keeping a love of minds will actually help you grow in a lot of ways you wouldn't even imagine. Keep an open mind. Thank you so much, Jaekun Cho.
23:48
Wonderful, wonderful conversation. I've enjoyed it. Yeah, thank you for your time. My pleasure.