Speaking and Communicating Podcast

extends his hand, shakes my hand. He's like, Hey, how are you doing and stuff? He's like, as a new board member, what can I do to help you? That question just floored me because nobody in the company asked me how they can help me. I was the problem solver. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host, Roberta Ndlela. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.
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Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work, pitch to investors or an entrepreneur looking to showcase your innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us. By the end of this episode, log on to Apple and Spotify.
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Leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss on this podcast. Let's get communicating.
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Today, my guest is a Transformation Executive Leadership Coach. He is also a servant leader and believes in servant leadership. He is ICF certified and is here to talk to us about more details on what leadership is, what it means and how it can transform us. And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi, Marten. Hi, Roberta. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to this.
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Thank you for being here. Welcome. It is my pleasure. Your voice is so deep. Has anybody told you you have a voice for radio? Thank you. Yes, I have done some radio. I've done a lot of performing. I have a band. I also do improv comedy. And so I use my voice a lot. I can imagine, yeah. So where in the US are you? I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. Love it here, except for July and August.
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Other than that, it's just wonderful here. Can you imagine how hard it must be during the summer months for sure. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Uh, well, I've been a serial entrepreneur most of my life. I've started construction companies, uh, IT companies have done legal billing, all sorts of chemical company, environmental chemistry, uh, sold to the, sell to the government and to, uh, airlines. Uh, so just, uh, how to.
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a wide variety of experience. And about 10 years ago, I think it was 2014, I was really struggling personally and professionally. And so I hired a pair of coaches, ladies from Cognova Consulting. And they just helped me change my life around. You were talking about servant leadership before. I was not a servant leader before coaching. And I was more, I was a manager. I, you know, barked out orders and expected things to be done.
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And that was part of the reason I was struggling professionally. I just didn't know it. And it was part of the reason why I was struggling personally too. And so they started coaching me and just transformed my whole worldview. Then I started another company. And that was just a completely different experience than what I had before, which was amazing. And then we sold that company.
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And then after that, they asked me to become a coach with them. And so I've been coaching with them, co-coaching, doing leadership summits and that kind of thing ever since. Speaking of coaching, I know a lot of people think, Oh, you know what? These coaches are just selling this idea of coaching because they want us to be their clients and pay them. You say that it did transform your life. Can you take us through how it was sort of like your blind sports? They made you see things that you hadn't realized, like you said.
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and you didn't know you were doing wrong. Right, right. I think that, well, let's go back to the servant leadership. When I was a much younger entrepreneur, I learned the older ways, like my dad was a contractor and it's kind of rough and tumble and get stuff done and the suck it up buttercup generation kind of thing. And I fell into that and I was very frustrated why my people wouldn't understand what I was asking them to do or.
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I'd ask them to do a project and come back, you know, a couple of weeks later, and then they weren't working on what I thought that they should be working on. I got super frustrated. And then after going through coaching and understanding how powerful questions can be and how they were asking me questions about my life and really trying to understand where I was coming from so they could help me and taught me how to do that same thing to the people that I work with. So rather than becoming a manager, I became a leader.
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And we talk about it in our coaching as power versus force, power being leadership, force being management. And so I think that was probably the most revolutionary thing that I had to go through in order to become a leader versus a manager. A distinction that we're going to dive into later. But the thing about asking questions, do you feel that when you ask questions,
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sometimes people already have the answer within them. They just never thought about it. Instead of telling them and saying Martin, you should do this if you want to be a better entrepreneur. You know what I mean? Yeah. Most of my coaching clients are, you know, senior executives in these huge corporations and they're struggling with, you know, promotion and career track and, you know, a lot of different things. And when I question them, they already
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It's just they've never articulated it. I think that the coaching relationship really dives into things that we think about and it goes back and forth in our brains, but the coaching relationship actually gets you to verbalize it because you're asking questions. Because the coach is asking questions that they've probably never been asked before, certainly not by anybody in a company. Because I think a coach in a...
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in a company is within the company is actually a mentor because there's an agenda, there's a track to some type of relationship with a company. I'm completely outside of a company. So all I want to do is focus on what's going on in my client's mind and what I can do to pull out the answer because I don't have the answer for them. I can't tell them what they should do or what they can't or can't do. All I can do is ask questions and then share my experiences, good and bad with them.
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And so then they have more information in order to make better decisions. It's amazing. We in coaching, we going back to that power versus force force, we call advocating, advocating for your position. Power is inquiry, curiosity, curiosity, which means also curiosity about yourself. And if you're a leader curiosity about your team, yeah, that's the biggest thing. You hit it.
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You hit it out of the park, Roberta. That's exactly it. It's about being curious about are the thoughts and the feelings in my brain true? Because we have all these thoughts and sometimes our brains argue with each other. Most people aren't aware that that's going on. And so we spend a lot of time in coaching, getting people to be curious about what's going on in their minds. And sometimes writing it down when something, what I call emotional explosions happen at work or at home, and then bringing that to coaching.
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and talking through what actually happened internally to cause that particular situation. And so we dive pretty deep, pretty quickly. It's a lot of fun. Self reflection. You mentioned mentoring and the difference between mentoring and coaching is that the mentor usually focuses on the best outcome that you want out of the workplace, out of your corporate career. Whereas coaching dives deep. Can you explain more?
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Sure, I think both are necessary and I waited way too long to get a mentor or a coach. I was an entrepreneur, I was on my own, you know, I learned a lot from my dad and some, you know, some people that I had been in business with, but I pretty much tried to do it myself and really struggled with that. And then once I got coaches that had amazing life experience, they were able to help me through. If they would have been in my company, that would have been a completely different relationship and experience.
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where you have a business relationship and you're in a company and there's, there's company, there's a corporate relationship. And like you were talking about earlier, they're going to talk about outcomes that are good for the company and coaching. We talk about outside coaching. We talk about what's good for the person, what's their development going to be like, whether they stay with that company or not, what is going to be the best outcome for them. And that usually is about diving deep within themselves because you know, whether you have a
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a VP position or you're on a line, you know, doing engineering, it really doesn't matter. Most of us are fighting against ourselves more than we're fighting against our environment. And so it's really learning and being able to hold up a mirror and actually being able to share experience because I remember when I did that and what my outcomes were. And then I also know when I tried something different, what my outcomes were. And so I'm able to really share in a much deeper way than I think that you could in a work mentor relationship.
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When you look back, so like you said, you succeeded in some of the businesses and some did not. What is the one thing when you look back in the ones that didn't do well, would you think, huh, now that I know what I know, this is the reason that went sideways? That's a great question. There's a few things. One, I think I was being very opportunistic at times and taking advantage of what I thought was an opportunity and I didn't ask enough questions. I thought I knew what was what.
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I didn't ask enough questions. I wasn't curious. I came from a place of knowing versus a place of curiosity. And I didn't know what I didn't know. And I got my butt kicked. Right. I wish teenagers would be listening because I know sometimes they're accused of knowing it all. Oh, I'm guilty as charged. I knew it all. I thought I was so smart. And turns out I wasn't as smart as I thought I was.
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Took a while to realize that. We talk about in coaching, and I talk about this with my kids. If you have like a pie chart, there's this little sliver that we call, it's what you know that you know. And there's a little bit of larger sliver that is what you don't know, or is it you know what you don't know. Yeah. Right? So you know what you know, you know what you don't know, but the whole rest of the pie chart is what you don't know that you don't know. And as I get older, I realize both of those other...
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What I know that I think I know, and what I think I don't know, gets smaller and smaller every year. And so that allows me to become more comfortable with not knowing, more comfortable with the unknown. And that's what we talk a lot about in coaching, because when I wanted to control things, engineers especially, wanna control things. They wanna control their life, they wanna control their product, they wanna control their line. And there's a lot that we can't control, and that frustrates people, and certainly frustrated me.
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And so learning to live in that curiosity versus the knowing allowed me to get rid of all that fear and anxiety and all the pressure that I put on myself and making goals and not meeting them and not realizing that the goal was stupid in the first place. So now I'm in a much better place of curiosity where
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I don't know what's going to happen. We don't even know what we're going to talk about in 10 minutes. So why should I worry about it? Let's just, let's just see what happens. We think we control, we think we can predict, but really if you think about it, we're terrible predictors of what's going to happen with ourselves and with other people. It's the quality of the questions and being curious. First of all, I want to commend you for
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even though you had some business ventures that didn't succeed, you never gave up. Because I think some of us don't have that tenacity or resilience, but then it begs the question, are we all entrepreneurs? Are we capable of being entrepreneurs? Or is it an individual thing? I think it's an individual thing. My father was an entrepreneur. I grew up watching him struggle and fight and win some and lose some.
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I didn't think I was going to become an entrepreneur. I was one of the first kids to go into college in our family. So I wanted to be an engineer. I wanted to be an architect. I had all these things where I didn't want to be necessarily an entrepreneur. And then went into marketing, got my marketing degree, and then that kind of led me into different positions where I was helping other entrepreneurs. And then again, they taught me a lot about being an entrepreneur. And then finally, I was like, okay.
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I've made a lot of money for all these other people. I'm going to see if I can make some money for myself. And so that's really what drove me into that. But now I have my wife, she's in banking. She's a compliance analyst for a large international bank. The idea of being an entrepreneur just gives her a lot of anxiety. She likes projects to work on. It's like for her, you know, going to work is like going to work on a puzzle. That's what she's comfortable with. And she's a great leader and she's, she does a lot of the things that we talk about.
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but it doesn't necessarily translate into her wanting to be an entrepreneur. So I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, I don't think that everybody's cut out to be an entrepreneur. Back to the self-awareness piece. You know what you know, what you know, what you don't know. And being entrepreneurs is tough. It's not an easy path. Some people get lucky, but, uh, you know, there's a large percentages of, of entrepreneurial businesses in the United States that fail within the first year. And so,
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It is about test nasty. It's picking yourself up, learning from what happened and then trying something different and trying something different and trying something different. And then let's talk about the work you do with your clients as a transformational leadership coach. When they come to you, what do they come to you and say, Martin, this is my problem. Wow, it varies. You know, I have one client that came to me. He's higher up in a entertainment company
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He had some personal issues that were going on that were affecting his work. So we talked about those and talked about his relationship with his family. And so that's where it started. Now I've had a couple others that were just passed over for promotion at a large, large company. And so they were dealing with, uh, we call it the three legs of the ego. I'm not good enough. I'm not loved and I'm not safe. And that, you know, worry, if we're usually worrying about something, we're worrying, you know, we're stressed about one of those three, right? And so,
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that I'm not good enough leg was really hit with them. And so we've talked through, again, you want anything to control something that you don't have control over. You're mad at the weather, which is the same as if you're mad at something that you can't control, the anger's inside. It's not, has nothing to do with the rain, right? And so we dive into, okay, well, what about this? Why didn't you get the promotion? Well, maybe it had nothing to do with you. Maybe it had something else.
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then what can we do, who can we start talking to, to find out what you need to do to get that promotion. And so then we create a plan. So we deal with the emotional aftermath of whatever they're going through, and then we develop a plan. We meet once every two weeks, once every three weeks usually, and see how they're doing on that plan, and how they're doing internally, and how their mind share and their voice inside of them is treating them. Because a lot of us...
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treat ourselves very poorly in our heads. We work on that as well. So people are gentler with themselves, give themselves a little bit of a break. Cause I know I was super harsh on myself before running into coaching. That's such an interesting point because if the same thing happened to my friend, I would say the kindest things to her. But when I do the same, ah, can you be so stupid? Yes. There's a lot of us that do that. And I would say most of us do that.
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And so it's really learning again, it's being curious what's going on in our brains and is there a way that we can soften that? Is there a way that we can put that to the side and be more present? Because most people are either worrying about the past, something that happened in the past, or they're worrying about the future. And both of those things are imaginary. We really only have right now, what you and I are doing right now is really what's going on. And so being present, being curious, being with...
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the person, whether it's yourself or with another person or a group, rather than having all this extraneous stuff rolling around in your head. And I don't know if I'm right, but I find that if I have all this stuff in my head, even the decisions I make are based on that. And sometimes they're not the best decisions. Absolutely. Well, we call it our ego defenses. A wonderful writer by the name of Michael Singer. He wrote at the end, Tethered Soul, he calls it your roommate.
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right? And you have this roommate in your head and if you put them to the side of you and they and everything that was going on in your head, that person to the side of you was speaking out loud, you would think that person is insane, right? All the stuff that goes through our heads. We talk a lot in coaching about how do we become friends with that roommate? We don't want to silence the roommate because the roommates important. We can't drive a car. We can't cook. We can't do a lot of things without this roommate or what we call our ego defenses. But there's so much more. They're right.
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50% of the time or less, but we have a deeper knowing. We have a deeper place in us. And that's where I want to help people get to that deeper place in us. Those momentary inspirations where you just, you know, when you're not thinking about something, this amazing idea comes out of nowhere. That's the place that I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. When you enlisted the help of a coach, how did you decide that that's the best route or that you needed that?
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So I'm working at one company that I helped start, but I had, we'd hired a CEO. I was the CEO and I stepped down and cause I'm more of a rainmaker. So I went more into the sales side of things and I was just very unhappy. Was doing well, but just super unhappy. I was in the middle of a divorce with my first wife. The company was, was doing okay, but was still struggling. And we had it, we got a new board member and he walked through the door.
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And it was like there was an aura around him. He was just smiling and, you know, everybody wanted to meet him and talk to him and shake his hand. And I was like, oh God, who's this guy? Cause I didn't know that we had a new board member. I was just too busy working and doing my thing. And so he walks in, I meet him. I was like, wow, that guy's impressive, man. I wish I was more like him, right? That's what I was going on in my head. And so they go through, you know, all day meeting and they come out, I don't know, 4.35. And I'm still, you know, at my desk working.
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And he just pops into my office and sits down in the chair, extends his hand, shakes my hand. He's like, hey, you know, how are you doing and stuff? He's like, you know, hey, as a new board member, what can I do to help you? That question just floored me because nobody in the company asked me how they can help me. I was the problem solver. I was the one who helped everybody. And I was stunned by the question. I said, well, how do I be more like you? And he kind of laughed and he reaches in.
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to his wallet and he pulls out a card and he hands it to me and he goes, call these ladies. He goes, five years ago, I was in the middle of divorce. I was a hot mess. And I hired these ladies as coaches and they turned my life around. And I was like, Oh, and so I did exactly what he said. The next morning I called the ladies, I set up an appointment and the rest is history, so to speak. That's why they say leadership is influence. It's like you were influenced by observing him.
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And that you wanted to be like him. Right. And he was curious about me and gave me a gift that I could never repay. And also because he was able, like you said, to ask questions such as, how can I be of service? Back to servant leadership. How can I be of service? He was a servant leadership, one of the first true servant leaders that I had been associated with and blew my world apart. And so that's what I now wanna do is I wanna give that back as best I can.
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They say everything starts with self-leadership. What do you think of that? Absolutely. My mentors talk about all the time that if you're having trouble with a team, work on yourself. Be a better leader. Share what you learn with the other people. Be curious about your team. Be curious about what's going on with them. And it's all self-leadership. It's all about self-awareness, in my opinion. I think the more self-aware a leader is, the more likely that they're going to be an amazing leader.
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I hear that and I agree, but also the other side of that coin is, wouldn't anyone say, does that mean that the team members don't take responsibility for their actions? They may or may not, but it's been my experience that once someone becomes a servant leader and makes that transition from a manager to a leader, and now they're going back to their team and they're listening to their ideas and they're getting more participation and they're
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curious about what's going on, then they're going to see different behavior, right? Be the change in the world that you want to see. Yeah, right. That's that kind of philosophy. And I see it. Here's the difference between me before and after coaching. As a manager, I would go into a meeting and say, okay, team, here's the problem. Here's what I think we should do. What do you guys want to think we should do? Right. So I've already put my desire, I've already advocated for my position.
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I'm not going to disagree with you after that if you're my boss. Right, so I was waving my hands and I turned my camera off. So that elicits a certain behavior. There might be a little bit of resentment because maybe there was a better way to do it than another person knew, but they never got the chance to share it, right? And so then they start acting out and their behavior becomes an issue because they resent something that happened in that meeting. Right, I'm just taking an example. Now as a leader, when I went into another team,
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after being coached and understanding this. And I would go into this team and go, okay, team, here's the problem. What are we gonna do? And then I shut my mouth and I'm the last person to speak. And I let them talk about it and go through it. Sometimes they come up with stupid ideas. They go way the wrong way. It doesn't matter. Let them get all that out and let them coalesce into two good ideas.
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And then that's when I can start asking questions about those ideas. Now, it's still not giving my opinion or what I think should be done, but asking questions that I know that they're not thinking about. Until they get to the answer themselves, then they're far more likely to go do it the way that we agreed versus get it done, this is what I want done, tell me in a week, right? And so if you become a better leader, you're going to get a different.
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reaction from your team. Now that doesn't mean that there are problematic people and you have to take care of them and you have some time you have to lead them into a different position. But I've always seen that is if they're not right for this position, then they're right for somebody else's position. And so why do you want to keep them and be everybody be miserable? Let's help them get to a position that they want and whether it's in the company or in a different company, get them to the right seat of the bus so to speak or another bus and then bring somebody else in that
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wants to be there that maybe has a more, has a personality that fits better with the team or something like that. When you are intrinsically motivated to do something, I mean, you don't even have to be pushed to say, hey, or reminded to say, by the way, your deadline. Exactly. Because you've come up with the idea, it's yours, right? Even though the leader might have thought of it two days ago, but man, if you came up with it just through a series of questions, yeah, you're going to take ownership.
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And then you're going to make sure that's done. And again, if you hit a roadblock, if you hit a stumbling block, then you're not going to be afraid to go to this leader and go, Hey, I've reached this roadblock. And part of servant leadership is how do you help your people get the roadblocks out of the way so they can accomplish what they need to accomplish? I used to create the roadblocks. Now I help people get rid of roadblocks. And I think that's a big difference. That's the transformation right there.
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I'm curious because you have kids, I wonder if this strategy can be applied, especially when you have teenagers, ask them questions and get them to do the house chores. Absolutely. When we first go into coaching or we first start coaching, people talk about how it kind of transforms their personal relationships faster than it transforms their business relationships. Because I do think that we come from a place of power, advocacy, get your room clean, do this.
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We gotta leave, right? It's advocating and force, avocation. We don't sometimes don't have time to sit and ask all the questions and do all the things, right? And so, and that's why most people use advocacy or force in business and in their personal relationships. But when you step back and you start having conversations with your kids, like I remember one of the first conversations I had with them after I'd been coaching for a while. And I just sat down with them and I said, okay guys.
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What can I be doing better as a father? Hmm. And well, when you do this, it makes me really upset. And when this happens, I hate this and that and that. They shared, they told me exactly what was going on with them. And then I made an agreement. All right, well, if I change this behavior and you guys gotta help me, I want your help to change this behavior in you. And then we make it packed in a deal and we would work together and we would remind each other. We'd have words that would remind us, hey, do this, do that.
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Like for example, when my kids would come home, they'd be usually pretty cranky. And so I found that vitamin B complex really helps with that. It helps create dopamine and serotonin and all that. And so when they got home, if anybody was cranky, including myself, anybody in the family could say, hey, we need a vitamin B. And then everybody would go take vitamin B whether we needed it or not. But what that did is anyone could call it.
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Anyone could say this is what the team needs, right? The family team needs. And we agreed a while ago that when we weren't cranky, that this was a good idea. And so everybody just like, oh, give me vitamin B. And then 20 minutes later, different kids. So that's a small example of how I was able to really change my relationship with my kids, enacting these things that I had learned in coaching. My youngest is 23, my oldest is 35, got four.
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And I have amazing relationships with them, especially the two younger ones, because I was, when they were probably like 12 or 13, 14, when I started coaching. And so they got a lot more benefit from me becoming a better leader, a better father than my older two. Wow. That is amazing. So teamwork, contract negotiations, if they want to be entrepreneurs, they know how to get a win-win deal.
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Absolutely. And they know how to ask questions and not be afraid of asking questions about how are you feeling about this? What can I help you with? What can I do better? Those are questions I never asked when I was younger. Communication and leadership skills, one in one in this family. That is amazing. I love it. Well, I love that you have a podcast like this where you're bringing so many different people. I've been watching a few of them since you and I started communicating. And
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I just love the fact that you like me are trying to help other people. You're trying to share, you're trying to communicate about communication. And I think it's wonderful. I appreciate that. Thank you for those kind words, Martin. Is there anything I haven't asked you today that you were hoping to share with our listeners during this conversation? I think I'll go back to Michael Singer, the untethered soul. That's the first book that I asked my coaching clients to read. He re and it's really just the first three chapters. He really.
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encapsulates that roommate idea and what's going on in the mind. And then that allows us in coaching to really go deep into being curious about what's going on in our brains. Um, we have the, uh, ego defenses. We have an observing ego, which watches all that ridiculousness go on. And then we have another level, which we call awareness, the self-awareness. And that's where the amazing parts of us come through. That's when we're, you know, in the flow where time goes like that.
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that's when you're in that awareness space. And it's a spectrum, it's not three things. If there's a lot going on and you can bounce back and forth, but that's kind of where we start. So if I could give one piece of advice to start, if you're on this leadership, if you're on this awareness journey, to start with that book. So Michael Singer, the book title? Untethered Soul. Untethered Soul, I'll put it in the show notes. Thank you so much for that.
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Words of wisdom from Marten Niner, the Transformation Leadership Coach all the way from Arizona. Marten, this has been enjoyable. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Roberta. I really appreciate it. It's been wonderful. My pleasure. And before you go, I already am in touch with you, but where can our listeners find you? My email address is M-A-R-T-E-N, the number nine, the letter R, at outlook.com.
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Feel free to email me and my first session of coaching is free. So if there's any listeners out there that are just are curious or just want to have a conversation, I'd love to hear from you. Excellent. I'll put that in the show notes as well. Thank you very much. And any other websites other than LinkedIn?
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Just LinkedIn. I know I need to be more of a social media person, but I'm just not there yet. That's totally okay. As we were talking about entrepreneurship earlier, everybody's different. Then that's okay. I'll put the email details on the show notes so that they can contact you. Thank you very much for being here today. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. So how would you say improv helps you improve your leadership skills? Ah, well,
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In improv, one of the key things that we talk about, and there's two key things I'll talk about, there's a lot more, but yes and, is a big improv rule and hyper listening. So yes and is a tool where if someone's on stage and says, this is a banana, and you say, no, it's not, it's a wrench, well then that scene stops and you've got to readjust. But if you say, this is a banana, and the other person goes, yes, and, and then add some more information,
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then the scene will progress a lot, a lot smoother. So in business, there's a lot of no buts. No, we can't do that. No, well, that's an idea, but it's a negative. But if you turn it around and you listen to someone's idea with true curiosity and really interested, and you say, huh, yes, I hear your point. I hear what you're saying. And I see it in a completely different way. Just that subtle change, that nuance of words,
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allows a much better transition, less emotionally charged transition into whatever it is this conversation is going. If you say no, but you're dismissing their idea, but if you say, yes, I see what you're saying and I think you're right and I would like to add this other information, then now you're building upon each other. And so we do, I do corporate improv gigs where I'll go into a leadership group. They want to do some team building.
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and we'll go in and do these improv exercises like yes, and to teach them these skills. The other one is hyper listening. Usually when we're in a conversation with someone, there's actually three conversations going on. There's what you and I are, you know, what's happening that's been recorded. There's what's going on in my brain and there's what's going on in your brain. And if we have too much going on in our brain, we're not actually listening to what's happening and we're anticipating, we wanna give the answer before we've heard everything.
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that the other person has to say, well, an improv, that can completely stop a scene, right? Because you're not listening, you're not working with the other person on stage, and so it goes like this during the scene. Well, that same thing happens in business meetings or in a business conversation. And so by teaching hyper-listening, which is listening with all of the senses and trying to quiet your mind or learning to quiet your mind so you can be focused on the conversation, so you're really...
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concentrating on this part of the conversation and not this part of the conversation. So yes and, and hyper listening. Yep, those are two things that I think are on the more important scale. There's a lot of other skills, but those are big ones. Thank you so much, Marten Niner. Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show.
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please email me and my contact details are on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader and becoming the change you want to see. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned.
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for more episodes to come.