Speaking and Communicating Podcast

overwhelmingly leaders who felt that they weren't able to successfully deliver change to their organizations. When they look back, they say, I wish I would have communicated more. I wish I would have communicated better. I wish I would have communicated more frequently. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast. I am your host Roberta.
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If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work, pitch to investors, or are an entrepreneur looking to showcase your innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us.
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Let's get communicating!
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My guest today, when it comes to communication skills, she's been in the game for decades. She is the author of the None Obvious Guide to Better Presentation. She is a TEDx speaker coach and an executive coach. Jacqueline Farrington has been in the communication game for a long time, merging that with her drama training. And today we are going to delve into that and so much more.
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Before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi Jacqueline. Hi Roberta, I'm delighted to be here today. Thanks for having me. I love the word delighted. I'm excited for this conversation. Welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, you did a beautiful introduction and thank you for that. And yes, I've been coaching for over 23 years.
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I started in my twenties as a professional actor. And then while I was doing that, I started teaching at the Yale School of Drama. I did that for about 14 years. But while I was there, I also worked with different people in the law school and school of management and decided, you know, this is really where my heart lies rather than working with actors. And so I went back to school, got a second master's degree in communications.
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and then left Yale in 2005 to start my company and have been working with senior executives on the intersection of leadership, communications and change. So I've worked with a lot of senior leaders on delivering transformative change to their teams and their organizations. And of course, communications is a huge piece of that. It's very interesting that you left the spotlight, which is what most of us want.
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for communications, how did you make that switch and what was going on? What was your internal dialogue like? Yeah, I think I was one of the few actors who left acting when I was actually finding some success with it. Other than the teaching at Yale, I was making my living at acting, which is quite rare.
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It's about 8% of the membership of Actors' Equity, that's the primary theater actors union or Screen Actors Guild, which is the television film actors union, about 8% of their members are able to make a living at actually doing what they love to do. And I was, of course, at that time, there was a dearth of good acting roles for women.
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And so I was either playing a young mom or a prostitute. Those were kind of- A pretty woman. Right, those are kind of my two choices. And I started to get really bored with that. I wish that it was the landscape that we see now for women actors, because there's certainly a lot more. There's still quite a dearth, but there are a lot more great roles available. But at the time I would be in the middle of a performance.
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and sitting there doing a steamy love scene with someone and thinking about what am I gonna have for dinner after this show tonight? You did not wanna be there. I didn't. And I mentioned that I started teaching at the Yale School of Drama while I was acting and discovered this real passion. And in fact, it made me feel so alive to help people have those aha moments, to see those light bulbs go off for people and to figure out
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what would help an individual find those moments because it's different for every single person. Everyone is different. And so it's kind of a detective work that you have to do to figure out, wow, how can I help this person unlock aha moments for them? And I discovered I loved that. And that's then what led me to moving away from acting. And then of course, as I was working with students at the law school and the school of management,
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many of them would come in and say, you know, this thing that you were working with me on, not only did it help me become a better speaker or a better communicator, but it's helping me communicate better with my wife or with my kids, or it's just making me feel like a more fulfilled person. And that's what was so gratifying for me. That's really what the impetus was for making me think, you know, I think I found my calling rather than teaching actors.
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Did acting force some of that communications desire for you? Is that part of the acting that also planted a seed for you to be into communication and be drawn into it? Oh, without a doubt. But actors are students of human behavior. And when I think back, without realizing it, of course, at a very young age, I was fascinated with human beings and human behavior and why we do the things that we do.
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And that's important for actors to understand because they're tasked with bringing the reality of human behavior and human communications and human influencing up onto the stage or on the screen. And if they can't bring the truth of that, if they can't bring the reality of that into what they do, audiences just don't believe them. They won't buy into what they're doing. So without a doubt, the two have parallels.
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And when you had the aha moments from your other students, and you said that was very gratifying, as we see on this show, communication skills help you not only at work, but in life as well. As some of them have said, have you found that that's been also your experience personally? Yes, for myself personally. And I have also discovered after 23 years of doing this, that it's a lifelong learning.
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Just when you think, yeah, I've got this nailed. Yes, I'm an amazing communicator. A new challenge comes my way and that's very humbling and makes me learn and realize that I still have a lot to learn. I often say to my clients, you will be learning to be a better communicator for the rest of your life. The day that you're not is probably the day that you're no longer on this planet because there's always something to learn, whether it comes from
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a new situation or just meeting a new person who brings with them all of their personhood and that then presents us with a new challenge. So it's a lifelong learning. It truly is a lifelong quest. Now you say you help executive with change management. Can you walk us through what that is first and how you come into the picture? Sure.
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Well, I would say now I work with executives on change leadership, not change management. I did, for many years, I was a change management practitioner after I left Yale. Change management is really about the processes, the structures, the levers, the tools that we use to deliver change to an organization. But change leadership is more about the communication side.
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Not that communications isn't a part of change management. It's a crucial part of change management. It is a crucial tool to deliver change management. But change leadership is really about speaking to the minds and the hearts of the people who you're trying to get to implement this change to adapt to the change. And so it's not just about those processes or even about data.
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it's about reaching their hearts and getting them emotionally bought into the change or demonstrating that you understand and going on the journey to understand before you can demonstrate that you understand their resistance to the change. Because yes, whenever there's change, whether at work or in person, we always have the fear of, I don't know what's going on. I don't know if I'm at risk of anything.
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How is this gonna affect me? Is it gonna be a negative change? So if you're a leader, how do you communicate to your team to put them at ease? Yes, well, some people are what we call risk adverse, meaning they're motivated by avoiding risk. Whereas other people are what we call benefit.
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motivated. They like to move towards things. And an analogy I like to use with this, a few years ago, I was sitting down having a conversation with two people, two gentlemen who had run marathons. And when I started to ask them, what was the impetus? Why did they decide to train for and run a marathon? And one person said, well, I just kept thinking about
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how I would get in such great shape and I was gonna raise a bunch of money for charity. And that's really what sparked it for me. It was kind of an adventure and I couldn't wait to get started. And the other guy said to me, yeah, I got started because my doctor told me if I didn't make some serious changes in the next five years, I was gonna be dead. And so that's just a perfect example of risk adverse, moving away from risk or moving towards benefit.
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So when leaders are dealing with resistance, it's first important to understand what am I dealing with? Am I dealing with someone who is more motivated by avoiding risks or more motivated by moving towards benefits? And then tailoring your messaging to that. So, okay, here are the risks we avoid by implementing this change. Or here are the benefits.
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or here's what we get as an organization, but even better if it's individually focused, here's what you get if you adopt this change. So it's tailoring your messaging towards both of those types of individuals. That's a great place to start. Exactly, because if you are risk averse and you feel like I could lose my job, there's AI and all of this that is going on.
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If there's no messaging from leaders that is comforting or makes you feel like you're secure because we all look for security, I'm okay. I'm safe. It could be very detrimental to your attitude going forward unless they let you go. Yes. You brought up something really important, the idea of certainty. The human brain craves, needs certainty.
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And so much of change is about uncertainty. Sometimes leaders can't share everything around a change because they may not know. But even in that case, it's helpful for a leader to say, I don't have an answer to that right now, I don't know. But when we do know, we will be able to tell you, we will tell you that. But one of the biggest missteps I see leaders make, especially in the early days of change where they're first announcing the change,
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is not giving as much information, as much data around the change that they possibly can. And when that happens, people do what I call MSU, which is they make stuff up. Or you could insert another word in there in the middle, they make up. Yes. Right? And so they make stuff up that probably we don't want them making up. We don't want that happening.
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But they do that because there's a lack of information. There's a lack of facts. And so the more we can give them certainty, even if it's just, here's what's going to change, here's what's not going to change. People love to understand what's not going to change around a change in addition to understanding what is going to change. So here's what's not going to change, here's what is changing, here's what you need to do, here's why this change is happening.
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That goes back to the benefits and the risks that we're avoiding. Here's as much information as we can give you in terms of your part in this change and then providing regular updates. Something like 80% of change in organizations fail. And when they've interviewed leaders and asked them, if there's one thing you could have done differently around that change, what would that one thing do?
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Overwhelmingly, leaders said, I wish I would have communicated more. I wish I would have communicated more frequently. And I wish I would have communicated better. So sometimes I'll have leaders say to me, but we are communicating, we're communicating enough. And I'll say, no, no, no, you're not. And one of the reasons that happens is because they're thinking about communication as a one-way street. They're thinking about it as transmitting.
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We send out these messages. Emails. That's right. Or even town hall meetings. But town hall meetings where they don't actually engage with audiences and ask them for their opinions, their thoughts, their questions. So it's important when delivering change that leaders remember that communication is a two-way street. You got to allow for that information to come to you, towards you.
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in addition to transmitting it out. So transmitting and sending. A two way street indeed. In your book, The Non-Obvious Guide to Better Presentations, first let's talk about public speaking. There's all this anxiety of, I'm going to make a mistake, I'm going to be judged. How do we get to that hurdle? Cause I hear that a lot. And also if you can just beautifully tell us the Sarah Hughes story that was mentioned in your book.
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That was one of my favorite stories because I watched the night that she won her gold, and it's the night that I talk about in the book. And I'm not a big Olympics fan at all. I just happened to have it on that night. So Sarah Hughes was a women's figure skating champion. She won the gold in her very first Olympics, but I think she was 16. It was her very first.
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And going into the finals night, she was in the top five. And so of course, all the experts were talking about, oh, isn't this amazing? Little Sarah Hughes, she's in her first Olympics and she's in the top five. And if she skates well tonight, she might, if she's lucky, hang on to her top five position or maybe even win a bronze. And there were two other skaters slated to win that night. Michelle Kwan, who was the reigning queen. People...
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figured she'd walk away with the gold there. And then another woman, can't remember her name right now, but she was slated to win the silver. Sarah Hughes went out and she was the first one to skate. And it was breathtaking, just such an amazing program. And when she finished, there was this momentary silence in the auditorium. It was almost as if the audience was stunned by this.
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absolutely flawless program that she had just skated. And then they were on their feet and this thunderous, thunderous applause. And she was beaming. And then after that, Michelle Kwan went out and she tripped and then she fell. And then I think she fell another time. And then the other woman went out and pretty similar story. So Sarah Hughes won the gold.
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And afterwards they were asking her, you know, you just looked so happy out there. What were you thinking about? And she said, you know, I knew that it was my first Olympics. I had nothing to lose. I was standing back there listening to my music before I went out and I was thinking, you have nothing to lose. So you love this, be joyful, have fun. Nothing to lose, be joyful, have fun. And that mindset.
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The way that she talked to herself before she went out and skated, I believe is really what contributed to her winning the gold. And in fact, that is an exercise from sports psychology that I talk about in the book, focusing on three adjectives that describe how you wanna show up, whether it's passionate, articulate, calm, or energetic, ambitious, adventurous. You know, you pick your three adjectives.
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And that can really help you focus then your mindset in terms of how you need to show up in that moment. You know, you mentioned this idea of this fear that we have of I need to be perfect or I'm going to mess up. I'm gonna make a big mistake and I'll look like a fool or I'll lose my job. And one of the things I talk about in the book is to aim to be helpful rather than good.
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By that, I mean that when you're focusing on being good or perfect or not making a mistake, all of your attention goes on yourself. 100% on yourself, the self-critic rears its ugly head and it becomes hyper-vigilant, starts to watch everything you do and everything is wrong because of course it's the self-critic, as opposed to when you're aiming to be helpful, you're focused...
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outside of yourself. You're focused on the people that you're communicating with. You're focusing on being of service. And that can really help you get over those nerves. That can help you find a little bit of flow in your presentation and definitely helps with performance anxiety. For sure. And I like what she said. She was focused on what she wanted to create. Like you said, if you are focused on helping your audience on...
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I have something that could benefit them instead of, did I say this perfectly on my slides? Okay. And things like that. Like I said, that's where the mind goes. And then once you get anxious and nervous, worried about you, instead of what you've come to help with, it changes. Yes. And thank you for highlighting that. I talk about that in the book as well, focusing on what you do want to create rather than on what you don't.
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So often people will stand backstage right before they're about to walk on stage and I'll say, well, what were you thinking in the moments right before you walked on stage? I was thinking, I hope I don't forget my lines. I hope I don't trip. I hope I don't screw up. Well, that's a surefire way to screw up, to forget your lines, as opposed to thinking, you know what, if I forget my line, I'll just pause, take a breath.
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My brain will come through for me, or I have a line in my back pocket that I'll kind of use some self-deprecating humor to talk about, maybe say something like, I knew I should have had that final latte before I came here. So you have something in your back pocket, a plan for when something goes wrong. It's funny, my husband for many years was a extreme sports tour guide. And he says that they learned
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it was part of their training, never say to a client, don't step on that crevasse or don't try to jump over that rock. That's what you just said, not the don't. Everything else you said after don't, I just don't think I'm going to do. Without fail, every time they said, don't fall into the crevasse, people would do it, right? Or don't step on that rock, people would do it. So,
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Focus on what you do want to create, not on what you don't want to create. So your mind goes every single time. And when it comes to presenting at work as well, a lot of people are afraid that you said in your book, don't screw up or your career is over. That's a two-edged sword because I've had people come to me and say, you know, I did this presentation, I think I did my best. And afterwards my-
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boss called me into his office and said, do better next time. Or you made me look like a fool in front of the board or something like that. But people don't receive that kind of training sometimes at work of how to make a presentation that's going to make your boss and the board and everybody else. The question is what advice do you have for someone listening with things? Once in a while I get assigned to make those presentations, but they usually don't have that kind of training.
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Because communication skills are seen as an afterthought or as they call them soft skills. It's like, yeah, the technical is very important, which it is, it drives the business, but that's a layaway plan type of thing. Can you say to someone, I'm very good at my job, but when called to present, sometimes the feedback is not that great. Well, create your own board of directors. And by that, I mean, tap into your network, your friends, your family.
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your colleagues and practice your presentations in front of them and ask them to respond in your presentations. If they're confused, ask them to raise their hand and say, I don't get what you just said, or what is that acronym that you mentioned? I have no idea what that is. So get some honest, clear feedback from your trusted network on how you're communicating, how you're presenting.
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The other thing, thankfully we live in an age where it is really easy to record yourself. And so hit that record button on Zoom. We're on Zoom today, hit the record button or hit the voice memo on your iPhone when you're leaving a message for someone so you can listen to what you sound like, what your voice sounds like. It's painful to listen to yourself. It's even more painful to watch yourself, but it works.
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you start to identify things that you do that you like, and also then what you would like to change. And so when you watch yourself, a couple of tips around that, imagine that you're watching a stranger. Imagine that you didn't know this person. And if you didn't know this person, but you were coaching them, what would be the three things they're doing that are working? And you can have more than three, but you have to have a minimum of three things.
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When you watch yourself through that lens of, I don't know this person, no idea, it creates a little bit of emotional detachment so that it's slightly easier then to watch yourself because we all cringe when we watch ourselves on video. And then write down three things that you would coach this person on in terms of how they could improve and know more than three things. So you can certainly have more things that they're doing that are working.
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but no more than three things you want to see them develop. And then start small, start with one of those things and just work on improving that. And then once you feel like you've really mastered that, then go on to the next one. So those are a couple of ways that you can improve even without reading a book or taking a class, just building that self-awareness. Certainly, it's funny the thing about recording ourselves. I don't know what we have against listening back to our own voices.
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I remember even when I started the podcast, I used to think, nobody's gonna listen to this. I sound weird. Who's gonna listen to that? But I've had to get comfortable with my own voice and how it sounds. What is it about our voices that we find a little uncomfortable? Well, we hear our voices very differently than how people hear them out there. So we hear our voices through our ears, through inside our bodies.
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completely different than when it's being projected out into the room. There's even some distortion when we listen to a recording. It's not completely how we might sound to other people, though it gets a little closer. So there's always that moment of, oh, wait, is that what I sound like? I didn't think I sounded that way because inside of our own bodies, we don't sound that way. That's not what our voice sounds like. But you said something really important there, which was,
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over time it got easier to hear your voice. And that's really true, that the more you listen to it or the more you watch yourself on video, the easier it becomes. You start to build that detachment, a bit more objectivity, and that makes it easier to watch yourself or listen to yourself. But it's just resonance, different kind of resonance when we're listening inside of ourselves, in our own bodies, versus bouncing off the walls in the room. Right.
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Which means then the emphasis on what you suggested constantly record yourself, listen to yourself, watch yourself. Then over time you just get comfortable with how you sound. Obviously there'll be room to improve and how you are when you're making a presentation and what would you say goes into if you want to land data with your audiences? I know you mentioned it in your book. What is the one tip you can give? Cause a lot of our listeners.
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They present data, but sometimes it's to non-technical audiences. Yeah. Well, here's another crossover with acting and that is tell a story, tell a story with data. And a basic structure is the introduction. Think about setting the scene. It was a dark and stormy night or here's the problem. Here's what we're wrestling with. And then when you get into the middle, that's where the crisis.
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happens, where it's chaos or it's really uncertain. We're not sure which direction to go. And then the end is the solution or the proposed solution. So beginning, middle and end. When I first started one of my first coaching jobs, I was working with research scientists at a pharmaceutical company. And I was helping them with their FDA presentations, the clinical research team.
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They'd have to go down to Washington, DC, present to the FDA. As drug trials went on, they frequently had to ask for very specific things from FDA advisory boards so that the trial could continue. So I would go down there with them and I would watch the scientists present. And it was a tremendous education in looking at how do we work with data? Because I would see two scientists, one who had amazing data.
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the other who had pretty shoddy data and hadn't really done his homework. But if that was the person who communicated well, they were the ones who would get what they needed from the FDA. Whereas the person who had the amazing data couldn't communicate well, they wouldn't get what they needed. And that was for me a real aha moment. I thought, wow, this is something that they could learn from actors.
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because actors, a part of acting training is script analysis and understanding how to tell a story. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It's just, how do I set the scene? Which can simply be a problem statement. Here's the problem we're trying to solve. Then the messy middle might be, here's what the data is showing us. Here's where the chaos is or the uncertainty is. So, and then the end, here's what we're proposing.
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That's a simple way to tell a story. Because often what you see people do when they're bringing data in is that they throw everything in the kitchen sink in with that data. And they bring up this slide that is data rich, although story poor. And it's just tons of data, data, data, data, but it's not telling any kind of story at all. They haven't cherry picked what pieces of the data do they need to highlight.
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in order to support their story. I find that a lot of the time, especially we all wanna showcase our brilliance and expertise and that I went to Yale. So I don't think it's an ego thing, but more a, I want to prove that I'm the right person for this platform right now. I'm trying to show the FDA that I'm very qualified so they should listen to me. So I think that's where then we trip and dump the data.
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That's where the disconnect is. Whereas if you keep it simple enough, but still show that you know what you're talking about, those are the ones who got the deal. Yes. And I think of it as less data, more about more focused data. I may have all this data, but I'm choosing which parts of it to highlight because I have a story to tell or because I have a problem that needs solving. Now.
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you have all the rest of that data, then might be useful to put into a document that you leave behind with them. It certainly is useful as people ask questions, then you can pull out other parts of that data based on the kinds of questions that they're asking, or as I said, leaving them with a handout, a takeaway that they can then look at later. That can be helpful rather than throwing everything at them.
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then they have no idea what your message is. Really, what are you asking for? What are you trying to tell us? What's the problem we're trying to solve? You make them work too hard to do that. And that's then when they'll want to just tune out and give up as opposed to you saying, here's the story, here's the problem, here's the solution, here's the action we need to take. And then letting them tell you where they want to
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focus on next, and then you provide that information based on all that data that you have in your back pocket. We give these tips of, these are five tips to get your nerves and your anxiety before you speak, but telling the Sarah Hughes story at the Olympics is more landing because even when you read that story from your book, it takes your imagination to that moment. Whereas if everything is just conceptual,
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And it doesn't land with your audience. Sometimes the story is the thing that will make them realize, ha, this is what this person is talking about. That's right. Sometimes we think of stories as having to be really long and it doesn't have to be long. Beginning, middle, end, that's all it needs. Do you have any final thoughts? First of all, let's talk about leaders who are dealing with change and how to communicate with their teams. Yeah.
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Remember how important communication is with change. Remember that overwhelmingly leaders who felt that they weren't able to successfully deliver change to their organizations, when they look back, they say, I wish I would have communicated more. I wish I would have communicated better. I wish I would have communicated more frequently.
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So never underestimate the power of communications and the need for communications when it comes to leading change. And does more mean more words and more information? I think it often means more frequently. And then it also means, yes, giving more facts, more data, because remember that uncertainty piece. If people's brains sense uncertainty, they will just make stuff up.
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And then it also means the two-way street that's rather than transmitting, transmitting, transmitting, check in with how your transmissions are doing. Are they landing in the way you want them to land? What other things do people need to hear? Because they will tell you how are they feeling? Give them an opportunity to have a voice in the change.
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So always remember that transmitting and receiving not just transmitting. The two ways straight indeed. And then what about someone who is afraid of public speaking? Yeah, well, we talked about trying to be helpful. Think about being helpful rather than good. Mindset is so crucial. And start first with mindset, then rehearse.
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Actors have a saying, do it over and over and over and over again until it feels like you've never done it before. Rehearsal sets you free. It really does. Because if you have to think about on the day that you're giving your presentation and you're standing up there and you need to be communicating and connecting with the audience, but instead, if you're thinking about where am I standing? What am I doing with my hands? Do I move here? Is this where I move my slides forward? Which words do I emphasize? How do I emphasize them?
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all of those things, ah, your brain goes on cognitive overload. It just can't do it. And so, of course, then you don't become focused on your audience. You become focused on yourself because you're thinking about all these different choices. That's what rehearsal is for. So then you've internalized your presentation, not memorized it, not sitting down reading it. You've internalized it. You've got up on your feet. You've
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spoken it aloud several times, you've moved, you've played with gestures. And then all of those then become part of your long-term memory, where you don't have to think about it day up. Then you can be really present with the audience and connect with them. And that's so important. So rehearse, rehearse, rehearse a lot. Rehearse until you internalize it.
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That's why when you forget, you're not stressed about it. And we always say, when you forget, nobody knows your speech anyway. So they're not going to judge you for something they don't know. And if you internalize it and it's just second nature to you, you might even go back to that point if it comes back to the forefront of your brain later and incorporate it if it needs to. So you can always adapt because you internalize it. It's just second nature to you. And if you are worried about things going wrong, because things will go wrong.
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Oh yeah, they absolutely will. And sometimes it has nothing to do with you. I once stood out on a stage and the moment I started speaking, this huge light dropped down from the roof. And I hope it didn't hit you. If it had not stepped away, it would have killed me. But do what I call indexing, which is, you know those little index cards? Write down everything you imagine might go wrong and then write down what you're going to do.
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if that happens. So write down a phrase that you're going to say, or if my slides don't work, I'm going to have backup slides printed out, or I'll send them all through the Zoom chat so that everyone can open them. Just have a plan. You can never anticipate everything that will go wrong, but when you index your response and you've got like this library of index cards, then it primes your brain to deal with those curve balls so that you can then more easily
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adapt in the moment when things do happen because they will and it will always be the one thing you Anticipate always they always do Jacqueline Farrington. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for being on our show Thanks for having you Roberta Absolute pleasure. I really had fun as well Is there anything I didn't ask you were hoping to share with our listeners today? There was one other thing and now it's gone out of my head. Oh, well actually now it just came back to me
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Remember that it's okay to be human. We are all human beings. I just forgot. I had one other thing I wanted to share. It went out of my head. I shared that with you. And then it came back. Classic example of what we were just saying. Exactly. So it's okay to be a human being. Not only is it okay, but people are rooting for you. And if they see you make a mistake and they see you recover from it, they will.
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love you all the more because they see themselves up there and they go, yeah, that's my worst fear. That's the one thing that I'm afraid will happen to me. But you, you managed it. You did okay with it. So it's okay to be a human being. It's okay. Yes. Because the more people see that we also mess up, they'll think, okay, then I can do this. Cause the fear comes from they expect to be a Simon
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So please be human. Be human. Words of wisdom from Jacqueline Farrington, the executive coach, TEDx speaker coach, and author of the non-obvious guide to better presentations. This has been really enjoyable. Thank you Jacqueline for being on the show today. My absolute pleasure. And before you go, where can we find you on the internet?
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Best places, the LinkedIn, Jacqueline Farrington, and then my website, FarringtonPartners.com. Jacqueline Farrington on LinkedIn, FarringtonPartners.com on the web. Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show, please email me and my contact details are on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network.
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Where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader and becoming the change you want to see. To learn more about the Bee Podcast Network, go to beeepodcastnetwork.com. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come.