Speaking and Communicating Podcast

This was at a moment when I realized that being a people pleaser and doing things for other people was not serving me and I had had some negative consequences from that. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.
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Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work, pitch to investors, or are an entrepreneur looking to showcase your innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us. Let's get communicating!
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Now, I don't know besides Beyonce, if anybody else that you know has an alter ego, but my guest today, Meg Niman, hailing all the way from Philly, is here to talk to us about the Alter Ego Project, workshops that she conducts around the country where she helps tons of people to find their alter ego to live their best, happier lives.
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And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi Meg. Hi, it's great to be here, Roberta. Welcome. Thank you very much for being here. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. Absolutely. So like you said, I run the Alter Ego Project. It is very much aligned with the network's goals of bringing your best version of yourself to any situation. What I do is I help people find what that best version of themselves is.
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And I do that through workshops that are inspired by my background in product design. So they're design focused, creative workshops that really get you in touch with who you are and then let you bring that to other places to have more empowerment, um, to have a bit more confidence, to generally improve how you're showing up, which definitely plays into both leadership and communication. When you say you were doing product design, what exactly did that entail?
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Absolutely. So I spent 17 years in Silicon Valley, San Francisco, as well as Seattle, working for companies that you likely know, companies like LeapFrog and Microsoft, Fitbit. And what I was doing was really being the translation layer between what people were trying to do with products or what we wanted to help them do and the engineers that built it. So it is this layer that is helping to define what a product is and then making sure that it's implemented in a way that people understand it.
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And it leveraged my cognitive science background, as well as just, I kind of got into technology in the early 2000s and was able to continue building those skills and, um, helping people lose weight and keep track of their steps and play video games and all sorts of fun things. And in service of the products that we shipped. Would you say that was a little bit of them bringing out their alter egos when they did those things? Oh.
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I actually would say not because really the goal of a good product designer and the goal of product design in general is to make things easy to use. So the more you have to think about it and the more that you're conscious of it, the more that we're likely not fully serving you. The alter ego thing really came more from my own personal experiences. I was a good product designer and also constantly asking whether that was really what I was meant to do.
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I had started my career as a teacher and I've always wanted to help people. I am a natural leader in that way and a natural facilitator. And while I could do that with the small teams that I was working with in product design, I didn't get to do that in a larger perspective and I didn't get to influence sort of people's hearts and where they really were trying to show up as fully and as presently as they could. And so what ended up happening was
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I was having a really good run as a product designer, but the part of me that had studied to be a yoga teacher and the part of me that was learning to grow and expand and deal with all the ways that life had lived me, which included a divorce and a layoff and a move across the country in the span of six months, that part of me wasn't really being fed by the product design work. And I happened upon alter egos for myself and then actually brought them into the field of
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corporate work into my job and found that my alter ego really improved how I was showing up for work. And I thought, oh, this is really fascinating because I have this background in working in corporate America, and yet I can see how something somewhat outside of what you might expect could really improve how I was showing up for my career and my engagement with work. And so I decided that this method was something that was important enough for me to spend dedicated time on. And so I've...
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left a bit of the product design world behind, but the ways of thinking about how you solve problems, the creativity that goes into that, the whole process of design thinking is inherent in the work that I do. And so there's still whiffs of the product designer in me when you get to see how I think about and help you create an alter ego. When you talk about these life changes, which so many people experience during the pandemic, the job changes, the family changes,
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Would you say that the Alter Ego project can also help them be able to cope and design in a way a new life for themselves? Absolutely. So really, we've been sold this lie that we need to be the same person everywhere in order to be authentic. And we know that's not true. So you don't need to be the same person at work exactly as you are at home with your family. I'm not!
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You're not right. And you're likely a different person when you hang out with your high school or your college buddies, that is just who we are. And it doesn't mean that you're being authentic. Oftentimes you're actually showing some of your true self and the things that you most want to share. And so context matters and alter egos really help you bring the best version of yourself to each situation. So that could be that you're being the best version of a partner.
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Or that could be that you're being the best version of a parent by being more patient than you are. Or that could be that you are being the best version of a leader. And that includes having work-life balance and leaving the office in order to get home to be with your kids. So it's really about establishing what you care about and what matters to you. And then finding a character that you build that really exemplifies those things. The interesting thing about alter egos is that when you develop them
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have them come from you and you consciously create them and you practice with them, then you can bring them into situations. And it's almost like flow. They just sort of happen and do what they're supposed to do. Kind of like writers talk about how their characters just kind of appear on the page. All three egos do that too. So really, if you set an intention that you want to be a caring and supportive partner, and you think really a lot about what that looks like, and you work through the process to develop what caring and supportive means to you,
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Then you walk into night with your partner who's frazzled and feeling off and all these other things and you say, I am caring and I am supportive or whatever it is that you need to say. You walk into that interaction with your partner and you're bringing a whole other flavor of yourself. That's still you, but that's actually improving that dynamic. So
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You know, leadership and communication shows up in all parts of our lives. We are leaders in our relationships. We are leaders in our families. We are leaders in our workplaces. And as humans, we are communicating all the time. So this is a method that's surprisingly versatile. My aha moment with it was when I brought this social character, Dee, who was very boundary and knew exactly what she wanted, which was not who I tended to be. I had been a people pleaser and...
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You know, if I brought the person that I normally was to the contract negotiation, I would have been saying like, please, would you give me the job? Like, I'd really, really like it, you know, I'm a good person, I think I could work. And instead I put my D-ring on and I walked in with my shoulders back, sitting proud. And I just said, you know, I think I could help you. Why don't we talk about it? How about we do a trial? And that two months trial lasted two and a half years. But it was a completely different dynamic. It was a completely different way of showing up.
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And that was when the light bulb went off for me that not only is this something that you can play with and help you in your private life, but that can actually be really powerful in the workplace as well. At work, first of all, we use the phrase be professional. I'm not professional with my friends or my mom. Correct. There are things, there are ways I scream at situations or discussions that I'm not gonna do at work. So it's not about.
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Oh, then I'm not authentic at work. I'm professional. That's what the situation calls for. Yeah. And at the same time, you know, I think that part of the quest for authenticity is when professionalism is weaponized against people. And so that's part of the fine line that we're toeing at this point, because, you know, there was a time when having tattoos was unprofessional and you had to cover them up, or having, you know, piercings was unprofessional, or the way that you wore your hair was unprofessional, or I've...
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been in a place where I wear jeans to work most days. But when I was a teacher and in other situations, that was unprofessional. So there's aspects of professionalism that are used as gatekeeping or as ways to keep people unable to express core parts of themselves. And I think that's where it gets really dangerous. But the notion that you're going to stay focused on a task and maybe use fewer swear words and...
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bring out a different side of your vocabulary because it's relevant to the situation. I think that all is still within professional. A lot of this has to do with whether you're choosing into it or whether it's being forced onto you. And part of the magic that I really focus on is these alter egos that are constructed, that you get a chance to choose into. So it's not about the environment telling you how you need to be in and you sort of pretzeling your way into what they're telling you you have to be.
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that can happen, but it's about sort of looking at, well, what are the bounds that I sort of see? And then what is the version that I really can bring to that that is my true motivations, that is part of who I wanna be. And if you wanna be a bad-ass business person and that is true to you and your leadership involves showing up with amazing suits, fantastic. And if you wanna be the business person that has blue hair and has
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lots of piercings because you want to prove that somebody who likes those things can also be seen as a leader and can still be respected, more power should be for that too. You know how early you were talking about how sometimes society feels like sometimes imposes this idea of us? Like for instance, this is the third country I live in.
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And you have my mom's best friend saying, what's wrong with her life? She's unstable. She's this, she was supposed to be more successful, more successful in her definition, meaning the job she got when she first graduated, she should have stayed with it and solidify this picket fence life. And because I didn't do that, so it's like what she thinks I should be is not a definition of a happy, successful life. Do you find that those who attend your workshops
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some of them do have that as well on, I'm coming here because I feel like I don't know who I am because all of it has been told that I should be this way. 100%. So a lot of people that come to the work that I do are people pleasers, which is a form of being told how you're supposed to be. And it seems safe to make everybody else comfortable. There are people who put other people's needs in front of their own, which is another way that a lot of different people are socialized, especially women.
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where our needs come last. And so they're coming to a workshop to say, you know what, I exist and I wanna know who I am. And I wanna know what I care about. And I wanna take up some space for the first time. Other people come with imposter syndrome, which is, and I suffered from that a lot in product design because I didn't for a variety of reasons, including I think that I have some anxiety and depression that needed to be handled through therapeutic means, but I didn't.
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I come from a design school and I'm not a visual artist. And I came in when we were all still sort of figuring out and I worked on some of the fringes of the product design world. Cause I sat at the intersection of hardware and software which was a really fun world to live in, but most people don't do that kind of work. And so I would frequently find myself comparing
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my skills to that of a standard job description of a product designer and feeling like I was coming up short. And so that's another version of how, you know, I was good at my job. I am good as a product designer, but there are ways that when we compare or when we try to put ourselves into boxes that other people have defined, it can really make it hard to know how to be, or it can just add this extra layer of thought and second guessing and all the ways that we sort of
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get in our own way and then also play small because we're afraid of not doing it right. And part of the point of why I'm even doing alter ego work is I hope to empower more people to play the game that they want to play, buy the rules that they want to play and keeping score the way that they want to keep score. So it doesn't always have to be that you get the highest title at the most prestigious company and that you make the most money. That is one version of a game, but.
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You also could be playing a game where you truly enjoy your work, work with people that you absolutely love, make enough money to get by, and have five weeks of vacation. That's a different game. And if what you care about is community and connection and freedom, you're winning. So there are so many ways that we've been told how to be. And the Altra Ego Project is one of many versions that can help us to deconstruct that a little bit. But it really is helping you to say like,
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If I want to be more confident, I don't have to be the prototypical version of confidence that I've been shown on TV and shown in books and shown as the perfect orator. I can be the version of confidence that's me. And that might be a quiet confidence. That might be a gregarious confidence. That might be a team building confidence. There's so many ways that we could show up as confidence, but if it's true to what you care about, it's going to be.
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One, easier for you to actually do, and two, much easier to sustain because it's aligned. Where we get ourselves in trouble, and so many of us are doing this all the time, is that we're trying to do things the way that other people expect us to do it, and it's not aligned, and then you're just forcing yourself, and you're using your brain to figure out how to do things, and you've really kind of cut off all of your intuition and all of your sort of natural way of being, and it's just exhausting. So,
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my hope is that people are able to bring those things together a little bit more and then still show up with the trait that they want, show up with that confidence, but in the way that is true to them. There's all these definitions of this is what a successful person is or this is what will make you happy. So join this track and get on this course. And the other things be this way. Sometimes when you resist that or you say, I'm content with the way I am,
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Roboda, don't you want to improve? Don't you want to be better? You live in the age of self-improvement. What would you say to that? I mean, I think that we also live in a place where as much as we might fault the U S for its individualism, which I do in many ways, we're in a time and a place where you can decide, you can decide. And I really think that everything has a light and a shadow side of things and the things that you don't want to change. Great.
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The things that you do want to change, let's change them. Over time, maybe the thing that you don't want to change, you do change. Maybe it stops serving you. I certainly wouldn't want anybody to be holding onto traits and ways that are adversely harmful to others. And so I think if you're getting that reflection that you're actually like hurting people, then there is an obligation to change that from the perspective of, I'm not a big fan of causing undue harm.
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But I do think the notion that you have to change because it's somebody else's version of self-improvement, I don't think makes a ton of sense. It should be your version of self-improvement and the things that you care about. Because if you're not bought in, it's not going to work anyway. We know that from all different forms of change. If you're forcing somebody to change, it doesn't work. It has to be what they want and they have to believe that the change is worthwhile. We were talking earlier about one moment you are putting together this alter ego.
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like you were D and you were showing up in these contract negotiations, would somebody listening ask, but was Meg showing up authentically in that situation? Yeah, I mean, so to me, an alter ego is just another side of yourself. And there are times when you might have a side of yourself that sort of pops out. That might be a little bit of a wounded child or a part of you that you didn't really mean to bring.
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Anyway, and so in some ways, I absolutely, I showed up at the contract negotiation because I walked in there as Meg Niman. I, as Meg Niman put on my D ring and I, as Meg Niman had figured out who D was to begin with. And I created her in my image, you know, of what I wanted this person to be. And, and I workshopped her and part of what I did when I was developing her, which sounds sort of like I'm doing this.
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actor kind of like character development. I'm not an actor. I'm not somebody who's even that interested in having a big stage personality. This was at a moment when I realized that being a people pleaser and doing things for other people was not serving me. And I had had some negative consequences from that. I had found myself both laid off and burnt out. I found myself not in the relationship that I had worked so hard.
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to try to keep together. And I was just tired. It just sort of felt like I'd really hit this moment where this was not sustainable. And I had a lot of evidence that what I had been doing was not sustainable. And I also had this opportunity to question it because I was in a new place and I was about to look for how I wanted to work in the future. And I was single and just sort of doing my own thing. And so it came out of
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this desire to change that came from me. And Dee was my response to that desire to change. And I created her in order to be more authentic. And then when I brought her into the contract negotiation, I didn't want to be a people pleaser in that contract negotiation. I mean, you could say that that's authentically who I am, but that's not what I authentically wanted. And so, you know, what often happens is when we're in that space of
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not quite being clear about what we want, then somebody will say something and it zings you. And then all of a sudden you've turned into that other person anyway. All of a sudden you've gotten, you know, flooded with some sort of emotion and you're now like replaying everything or you're in this place of anxiety and you can't think clearly. I mean, this is part of what happens to people with stage fright is they just sort of get flooded and can't think clearly and can't be on stage anymore. So for me, I was like, no, I'm bringing D.
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Because I know Dee can handle this and Dee's not gonna get zinged and Dee's gonna be very clear about what my interests are and what my desires are and she's gonna advocate for me even better than I could. So I was there because I made her and then I was there because I embodied her and then I used what she was really good at at that situation to get me the job that I really wanted. You embodied her after making her. Say I'm a lawyer and I love legal dramas, that's why I'm using this example. And I watch a TV show, say,
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you know, suits, right? I want to show up in court as confident Harvey. What's the first step for me to try and embody his character, that level of confidence? Because he just walks in like he owns the room. 100%. So first off, this is actually one of the exercises that we do is we would say, okay, Harvey, and I actually don't know the show suits, but that doesn't matter.
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We use Olivia Benson a lot of times in my workshops, but we'll take Harvey. So first off, you are coming in thinking that you want to be Harvey. And I just think that that's in and of itself important because you think that that's what you want. So let's deconstruct it. What does Harvey do in order to be confident? How does he look? How does he dress? What are the ways that he shows up? How is he holding his body? What are the things that you notice about Harvey? He shows up very confident. He walks tall. I think there was also.
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Pinterest thread where somebody just need all of his codes that all over Google, but no matter what the enemy or the opposing side throws at him, he always has a comeback. It's almost like he's got an answer for everything. If somebody's holding a gun to your head, you know, a lot of people say, oh, okay, I'll beg them to stop shooting. He says, he will have something different that empowers him even more than the guy who's holding the gun. So he always says, you're gonna one up me, I'll two up you.
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He's that kind of guy. Amazing. And what I love about this is if I were watching the show, I might have pointed at a few different things. Maybe I noticed that he always wears black, let's say. I don't know what he actually wears in terms of the color of his suits. Or maybe I noticed that he never drinks coffee. I don't know. I could notice something different. And the point is really that what you're picking up on are the things that you value and the things that matter to you. You wanna have that.
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come back and some part of you does have it. That's why you said, why it resonates with me. Yes, exactly. And so what we would do is you could stop with Harvey and then you could just say, what would Harvey do when you walk into your own law office or, you know, you, your own courtroom. That's my catchphrase. What would blank do? What would Harvey do? What would Beyonce do? What would, what would my third grade teacher do? Yes. You know,
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Tony Robbins, what would he do? What would Tony Robbins do? 100%. So that's one version. And those are great. That's a really great starting place. And then what I would tell you to do is actually practice it. So try going to the coffee shop and having that come back to the barista. Try going out with your friends and see if you can just come up with those things. Try standing a little taller when you go order the drink and see if maybe you get a second one. Just see what happens as you are Harvey in the world and you get to feel it in your body.
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And then you would find out, do I like this? Maybe there's, I see you smiling, so I think you do, but maybe there's parts of it that don't quite work. Maybe there's parts of it that felt weird. Maybe there's aspects that you realize isn't quite there, isn't quite him, but it's some other quality from somebody else. And so when you work with me over time, and usually it's just about a month that we work together anyway, but we can start to not only take where you started from,
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but expand on it and make it more and more yours. And usually people end up with this sort of amalgamated character. That's a combination of a lot of different people and a lot of different traits, but it is uniquely theirs. For me, Dee likes to wear black leather. She's got a little Maeve Wiley from sex education in her, but she's also like not so sassy. Like she has a very clear kindness underneath all of it. And she is just kind of like happy and like
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gregarious, but at the same time, not afraid to say no. So she's sort of this combination. She's not exactly that character. She's this version of me that I've found that I've felt myself into over time. And I've been living with Dee for maybe two years now or even no, three or four. So she's become very clear to me. And I literally say Dee and my shoulders go back at this point, like there's no, it's just like Dee. You fully embodied her.
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Yes. And I light up, you know, she's, she's very important to me, but you don't necessarily start there. What's important is that you get clear on what you really value. And I've seen again and again, people will come in thinking that they want to be one person or thinking that there's a person or trait that they really want to emulate. And through the exercises that often morphs, it changes subtly. It changes that it sort of settles into what they really want. Cause a lot of times too, we're not even totally sure.
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We have this felt sense that something's not quite right, but we're not always totally sure what it is. And that's why something like design thinking and a design process really helps because there is sort of a way to begin. There's the messy middle where you're not totally sure what's going on. And then there's an end. And then there's also a mechanism to come back through and make changes as needed to grow and expand and change and improve.
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So you're not stuck in one character. And even the one you built is sourced from many different characters. Whatever you want. As many as you need. And at the same time, like I had a client who wanted to be Rebecca from Ted Lasso, and that totally worked for her. And she was Rebecca. And she has done amazing things as Rebecca. We like Rebecca a lot for her. And she's tried it and it has continued to work. So what's most important is that it is what works for you.
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and that you're open to trying and seeing, but no judgment one way or the other. If you keep the character as is, as was presented on the screen or in a book, great. And if you modify it, great. As long as you are happy and it is working. A lot of us are accused of not knowing what we want. So if somebody comes to the workshop and they don't even know what they want, they just know, Meg, I just know I'm unhappy. I just know I'm not content with my life.
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but I don't know what the end goal or what it is that I want. Yes. Is this one thing that can help them to even establish that first? Yeah, I mean, I can offer it to everybody here because what we basically do is figure out where, one place where you know that you don't want what you currently have. So you come to me and say, I'm stuck. I don't wanna think, I'm like, okay, what's the one that's really bothering you the most? Oh, I don't like where my career is. Great.
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Now, let's think about some situations in your career where things aren't going well. And you can do this as a mindfulness exercise. You walk out of a meeting and you feel icky, you feel annoyed, and you can say, if only I had blank, things would be easier. If only I had more confidence. If only I had been more assertive. If only I had more patience. If only I had more self-assuredness.
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I would feel better. And it comes out. And that word in and of itself may morph a little bit as you play with it. But you know more than you realize that you know what you want. Part of it is giving yourself permission to ask the question. Give yourself permission. You'd think as grownups, we already think we do already have that innately, but we don't. We don't. Why is that?
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for all the boxes and reasons that you mentioned before, for all the pressures of society, for all the ways that we feel like we're supposed to, all the shura wudakuras, prevent us from having permission. And I also think that when you try to do something like this, I'm not a magician, it's not like I have the only way to do this, but when you try to make a change, there is a moment of feeling really scared that you might open up a need, but not know how to fill it.
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almost that like naming that you're unhappy means that you're like sentenced to being unhappy forever because if you'd known how to make yourself happy, you would have done it by now. And so I do think that there- Is that when we say, I'm even afraid to try because I don't want the disappointment of not achieving that. Yeah, it's related to that. The afraid to try because you don't want the disappointment of not achieving it can play in a couple different ways. But I think it's the related sense. I think it's a related sense. Some people don't wanna try because they don't want
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the badge of failing. Some people don't wanna try because they want to believe that they actually could have done more. And so they self-sabotage. There's I think a lot of things in the like, I don't wanna try moment, but I think there's a lot of fear in, if I point out that this thing is wrong, but I don't know how to fix it, then I'm just gonna have to live with the wrongness. And that doesn't feel good. And so I think you need permission to say like, no.
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It's okay for it to not feel right or you to be unhappy about this thing because we do have a way to move it. We do have a way to change it. You won't just be stuck in that. Maybe that's my own frame. Maybe that's my own ways that I think about problems and how I get stuck. Yeah. So sometimes we don't realize that every problem has a solution. I don't know that every problem does have a solution, but I think that sometimes we get worried that we're not able to solve the problem. And so we don't want to even.
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start questioning it. And I think for some people they're stuck because they've tried to solve it in five different ways and it hasn't worked. You know, that's the other version of stuck is like, I've tried this and I've tried that and I've tried that. And the answer is, well, maybe you need some help. Maybe you don't have all the things and that's okay. We all need help. And so you need a new method, whether that's what I do or whether that's working with a therapist or whether that's working with a coach, like you need something else.
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than what you've been doing. And so that's part of the promise of doing any of this personal development work is to say, you will get some sort of frame shift. You will get some sort of movement. You will get an outside perspective to help you and you will be able to, through the method, see things differently and then move it rather than the sense of stuckness and it will always be there because you've exhausted your ability to change it on your own.
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And would you say in this can be applied in relationships, you can see someone that you feel this one character trait they have and how they handle their relationship is the one I'd like to embrace? Yeah, I mean, really part of the whole thesis is that if you see it in others, it's because you have it in you. If you see it in others, it's because you have it in you. And so when you say, oh, I like how that person handles conflict.
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I wonder if I could do something similar. It's because you can do something similar and part of you wants to do something similar. Try it. Maybe don't try it with like the core problem in your relationship. Maybe try it again with some friends that ordered food that you didn't like, but try it. Right. See what happens when you embrace that trait. Yeah. And then do you know some of those who have attended your workshops, what have been the general
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And have they given testimonials to say, this is how I saw things shift in my life or in this aspect of my life because of embracing my new alter ego? Yeah, you know, there's a real freedom that comes from alter ego. So celebrities use them in order to kind of distance themselves and have sort of this perfect version of themselves that then they can be like a normal person behind. And so,
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That's not always exactly what people need when they come to the workshops, but there is an element of empowerment and freedom and permission. Like just today, I spoke with somebody who had done one of the workshops and he's doing job interviews and he's just showing up as a different, more aligned version of himself. And so he's more confident. He's treating the job interviews themselves more as a dating process than as the person who.
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desperately needs the job. He's clear on why he wants to do the work and has remembered why he does what he does to begin with. He's having more fun. And he got farther thus far in the job interviews than he's gotten before he put his alter ego on. So...
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It's a twofer, you get to feel more aligned, which is huge. And then often you get better external results too, because that trait that you identified is something that you need. So when you show up more confidently, lo and behold, better things happen to you. But you also are just not feeling as much cognitive dissonance. You're feeling more like, oh yeah, and this is who I want to be. I'm choosing into this. I'm bringing the best version of myself to this situation.
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I love that you put the fun part too. It is fun. It is something you can play with. And when you make it fun, I think that's when it can really create those shifts that we're talking about. Totally. There's a lot of advice out there that is not necessarily wrong, but is very much related to kind of a sense of hustle culture and a sense of just sort of like, just do it and show up and power through and...
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That can be very effective, but I have zero interest in being that person, and that is not how I like to teach. And so this is all about the playful, creative side of ourselves being the one in charge. And yes, you're still gonna take some risks and you're gonna do some things that might feel a little bit challenging, but it is not to break you. It is not to prove that you can run the marathon. It is like, no, you can go play tag with your friends.
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and see if maybe you can catch someone, you know, like it's, it's this sort of playful thing. And it's like, if you catch them great. And if you don't it's tagged, like it's really okay. So with alter egos, it's like if you come up with one that you absolutely love and it works for you like D run with it. If you have one that you try and it doesn't quite work, leave it behind, make a new one. I have Chloe. She's my marketing manager. She's sort of three quarters of the way there. I still have some work to make her sort of perfect, but she's super helpful.
35:34
She knows how to talk about the Alter Ego project in a lighter, more fun, exciting way than I do. Yeah, as much as we've been talking about the serious aspects of this, it is absolutely playful. And when teams do it, they're surprised at what they learn about each other, because you get to see things that references people's childhoods or references who they were before they were the, you know, buttoned up tie wearing person that you know.
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you see the other sides of people, you get to see more of their humanity and you get to see more of the breadth of their character as they are developing characters. And so people walk away just sort of refreshed and kind of excited about the people that they work with as well as excited about the work that they're doing because again, they're bringing this enlivened lens to the problem that they have. As you work with teams, first of all, I'm wondering,
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Back to Dee again, negotiating this contract. The first time you went to say, so, uh, Fortune 50 company, this is what I do with the alter ego project. They're thinking, what is she talking about? Or do they get it and think, Hey, our team needs this. Well, a little bit of both. I mean, Dee is not the perfect sales person. She is my most empowered self.
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But these biggest flaws that she's very much take me or leave me. She is not going to convince you that that anything needs to change about you or her. So, uh, she's not going to convince you that this is absolutely necessary if you're not interested. But what I have been finding in terms of the reception is we need this. Companies know that their employees want to be getting support and investment from their companies. Companies also know that teams that are more functional.
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work better. Employees have been learning of late that more diverse teams actually produce better results. This is a way to actually like increase diversity because you're asking people to bring their own version of whatever you're asking them to do to the floor. In a lot of ways, it's a smart investment. It's a smart way to use your time, especially because this isn't a six month program. It's a half day workshop. It's amazingly quick for the actionable
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impact that it has. Again, that's not because I'm a magician, it's because we're sort of hungry for this and we're, we have it in us already. And it's really just putting a frame and some words to what people want. And again, giving them permission to actually go there, rather than being afraid of it or thinking that it's out of reach or just unavailable. It's like, no, it's there for you. And it's actually way quicker for you to get there than you might even realize.
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And it's not reserved for big statuette people like Beyonce with her Sasha Fierce to say, okay, it's only for those kinds of people because they're on the big stage. Anybody can embrace this. Anybody can embrace it. And I think what happens is if they're on the big stage, they talk about it. I did a poll on LinkedIn, 69% of the people that responded said that they have an alter ego. They already have one. I did not work with most of these people. So this came from them.
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That's a self-selecting audience because they follow me and I run the alter ego project. When I go speak more broadly at a women's event or something, and I'm like, this is what I do. How many of you have an alter ego? 30% of people will raise their hand. So as far as I can tell, about 30% of people, not a super formal study, but I've done it in a number of different contexts, already have some version of an alter ego that they really can sort of say, I know when I turn into this version of myself,
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whether they have a name or not, it's sort of this encapsulated version. It's work Wendy, it's mama Meg, it's hospital Sam, it's crisis mode and so and so, like there's these things that they already know. And then for everybody else, I've had a hundred percent success rate. Every single person who comes through, if the goal is to give them an alter ego at the end, they have one. If you stick with me through the end, you will walk away with an alter ego. Is it perfect?
39:46
Maybe not. It's somebody that you've already tried to embody and played with and have a felt sense of what it feels like to be them. Absolutely. Like you said, it evolves. And one day you can say, you know what, I want to be somebody different or I want to embrace that different person's character trait. That's the fun part of it is I'll have fun with it as you keep trying to see how do I feel if I embody this character. Yeah. And I think the other part of empowerment is that it's intentional.
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We do so much in our lives that are like pseudo intentional or like we think that we're being intentional, but this is a very intentional process. This is to say, I'm going to name the problem. I'm going to name a solution and I'm going to name the person that will help me that I create as my alter ego. So there's just the fact that we've been so intentional in and of itself is valuable.
40:42
being in you're not sleepwalking through the problem anymore. And you're not sort of flailing around and throwing spaghetti and while and hoping that it sticks. It's like, no, gonna actually deconstruct this figure it out. And sure, try different things, but try them with a hypothesis of whether they help you and then revise them based on whether they actually meet the goal. And you're not sleepwalking through life, which unfortunately, I think some of us do. Yeah, just do this conformity game and know
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And I think that even for those who are sleepwalking and conforming, some part of them is also probably very sad. We're not meant to sleepwalk through life, I don't believe. And it doesn't have to be big things. I was a person in my head for the longest time. And then I discovered yoga and I discovered meditation. And now I take very long hikes and I notice all the insects and I pay attention to the animals, which used to...
41:39
Freak me out. The first time I went on a hike, I was just jumping everywhere. And now I just, you know, I'm like, Oh, what is that noise? I wonder who's over in the bushes. Like I've changed completely. Uh, if, if nothing else, I'm a poster child for change and how much you can grow. But it can be small. It doesn't have to be these massive things. Even the notion of an alter ego is something that can be very internal. You don't have to tell anybody else. Yes. Hence not asking for permission. Yes. You can just.
42:07
create your own for sure. Any last words of wisdom for someone who's listening and thinking, hmm, this sounds like something I need, but how do I navigate this? I want to play around with it. Yeah. One of the biggest things that I suggest that people do is just start noticing. Notice where things are feeling a little bit not great and just say, if only I had a little more, this would be easier. And that in and of itself can be really helpful.
42:36
because it helps you to just acknowledge that things aren't exactly the way that you want. And it gives you a name of something that you want to go seek out. And whether you create an alter ego who has that, or that you find a book on how to have those things, or whether you start watching a TV show where somebody has that skill and is really great at it, doesn't much matter. You're starting to get into your brain some of the ways that you might be able to show up a little differently. Words of wisdom from Meg Niman, the founder of the Alter Ego.
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project that is revolutionizing the country. Thank you very much for being on our show today, Meg. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. Thank you for being here. Me too. Thank you so much, Roberta, for having me. I really enjoyed it. My absolute pleasure. I had fun too. And before you go, please tell us where we can find you on the web so we can learn more about your next workshop and more about the Alter Ego project. For sure. So I am the only Meg Niman in the world.
43:34
You can find me at LinkedIn Meg, M-E-G, Niman, N-I-M-A-N. You will see that in the show notes as well. And then the Alter Ego Project is alterego-project.com. If you go to other versions of Alter Ego Project, you may end up skydiving, which is great. But mine is alterego-project.com.
43:57
And you can find out all about upcoming workshops. You can join the newsletter. You can find out how to work one-on-one with me. You can find out how to bring me to your teams. Alter Ego-project.com, Meg Niman on LinkedIn. Thank you so much, Meg. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show,
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Please email me and my contact details are on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader and becoming the change you want to see. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned!
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for more episodes to come.