Speaking and Communicating Podcast

overcoming a fear of public speaking. It's amazing. It has opened doors. I'm able to step into opportunities and speak to people that I wouldn't have been able to do years ago. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.
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Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work, pitch to investors or an entrepreneur looking to showcase their innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, which is a centralized hub.
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that helps listeners become their best selves at work and in life. To learn more about the Bee Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com. Let's get communicating!
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My guest today had a fear that so many people can relate to. So many of us fear being in front of audiences and giving speeches. Public speaking has been rated as the number one fear that some fear even more than death itself. Liam Sandford is the author of effortless public speaking and founder of Creators Unwind.
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He's here to talk to us about how not only he overcame that fear, but how he's currently helping others to do the same. And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi, Liam. Hi, Roberta. Great to be here. Looking forward to this discussion. Thank you so much. Welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I am just an ordinary person who once upon a time had a fear of public speaking and
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It took a long time to overcome that fear and fairly recently put a lot of those learnings into a book called effortless public speaking. There's so much in there from how to overcome the fear, how to conquer your mind, and probably some of the things that a lot of the advice out there does not help you with. There's the piece for me of how to make public speaking effortless, which is a journey that has taken me a long time to go on.
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I love sharing that story with people and also helping people become stress-free speakers. Like I said, you're a great fit for the show because a lot of people, that is their number one fear. And the thing about public speaking is a person can be confident in social circles, can be the life of the party even, but as soon as they say, go and speak in front of people, something changes. What do you think that is in general cases? Obviously everybody's different.
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So I think there's a bit of psychology that almost says public speaking is standing on a stage in front of, you know, hundreds or thousands of people. That is just a terrifying environment. If I think of that right now, that's still pretty terrifying. There's a really important thing of making everyday conversation count as a relevant repetition and relevant practice to actually be able to deliver on stage. And
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I think that that is the missing connection. So what some see public speaking as, as being on the stage, I see everyday conversations as an opportunity for public speaking. It can be, you know, delivering a presentation at work. It might just be having a conversation with a colleague. It could be going out for coffee with a member of your family or a friend. It could be asking for directions. I think the way in which you use
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the everyday interactions that you have can really impact what public speaking can be to you. Often we over egg what public speaking is in our minds. That then creates a level of anxiety because we don't do it very often. So if we reframe it, you know, everyday conversations can be public speaking, then that's something we're doing all the time. We are constantly getting reps in. So when we come to deliver a big presentation or
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know, a job interview or we are in a pressure cooker environment, which public speaking can be. We are able to recall doing it this morning in that conversation. We talk about the concept of the nano speech in effortless public speaking. And nano speech is simply a very quick, open body and close. That can just be 10 seconds. It can be, hi Roberta, my name's Liam.
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What's interesting to you? Why do you get out of bed in the morning? That can be a quick nano speech. So you can do that when ordering a coffee that can be just as I've done in a quick conversation. And when you use that and you can stack those reps together and make it easy for yourself to get public speaking reps in, you can easily scale that nano speech from a 10 second burst to a two minute conversation to, you know, five minutes.
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And then when it goes beyond that point, you can stack nano speech upon nano speech. And rather than closing, you're just adding a transition to the next point. And there you go. You have a presentation and that's something that I don't think a lot of people think about. So the nano speech for me is, is such an important concept that I certainly used when I had a fear of public speaking around 10 years ago. That's interesting that we
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do not make that connection that, hey, wait a minute, I'm public speaking all the time. That's right. And especially like you said, if I'm ordering coffee, I don't see it as me standing on stage and the barrister and everybody else is watching me order the coffee. There's something vulnerable and sort of being naked, being on stage. It's like everybody's watching you.
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It's almost like a Scarlet Letter moment where everybody's watching you. So we don't make that connection of the nano speech that I do this all the time. Yeah, that's right. And ultimately confidence is success remembered. So how easy is it for you to recall successful practice that you've had previously doing this thing? And if public speaking to you is standing on a stage in front of a lot of people.
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You don't do that very often. There are not that many opportunities to do that. So when you start reframing it, that every conversation has the ability to be a nano speech has the ability to be a public speaking rep, you can build successful repetition after successful repetition so that it is easy for you to recall the success that you had yesterday doing the same thing or using the same structure so that when you turn up.
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You actually are delivering at your best. And the important thing here is practice is absolutely critical. But what's really more important as somebody public speaking is recent repetitions, because if I got all that practice in three, four years ago, that was three, four years ago, that's going to be hard for me to recall that success. Hmm. So making it easy for yourself and building in recent reps before.
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public speaking or an important presentation or a job interview or whatever other important event that you've got is so important to make sure that you're not leaving your performance up to chance. So if I have a speaking event coming up in two weeks time, every day in the next two weeks I will be intentionally using the nano speech and intentionally finding opportunities for public speaking so that when I turn up, it's easy to recall those successful reps.
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and I will be as confident as I possibly can be. Certainly, yes. Now, why would someone as young as you look decide that public speaking is something you wanted to focus on? Because usually, like I said, it's either required by the job or the interviews, especially with job ones, because that's mostly people that we work with. They would go, I like my job. And if my boss didn't give me an ultimate time to go make this presentation,
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I wouldn't choose it. It's something I have to do. Why would this be your focus? About 10 years ago, I was sat in a university lecture theater, and the lecturer announced, I'm going to be picking on people to speak today. I'm going to be asking questions. You've got to answer it. My heart started racing. I had sweaty palms. My face was visibly sweating and people could probably see that I was uncomfortable.
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Now, the more people that got picked on to speak, the more I wanted the floor to open up so that I could just leave the room. I didn't get picked on to speak that day, but just at the thought of having to talk in front of a room of maybe 30 people, I was overwhelmed. I was incredibly uncomfortable. Something needed to change. I knew that there was going to be more occasions.
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And I didn't want that feeling every time. So I started being intentional with figuring out how can I do this in a way that people don't see me sweating where I don't have my heart racing that I can just feel comfortable talking in front of people. So that was a trigger moment for me. So I went on a bit of a journey to figure it out and I decided that I was going to, you know, start small and then scale up from there.
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It's the best thing that I've done is speaking really is everywhere. Like you say, most people are forced into it in their job. What if you could make that so that you can do it effortlessly? So the job interview doesn't feel so overwhelming. And a lot of it comes from the ability to in the moment, be calm and focus on just two things, what you need to say and your connection with the audience.
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Can you walk us through what went through your mind at that college class when you thought you would be picked as one of the people to speak? What were those fears? What did you imagine? What was the horror movie playing in your mind? What if I get it wrong or I say something so stupid that everybody laughs at me? It's almost that thing of social acceptance from the group. It's very easy in education in particular to be branded through one moment.
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So I was probably fearful that if I got it so wrong, that would be what I'd become known for by that class of people. I think education is quite often the first experiences that people have with speaking in front of others. And it is such a horrible environment because you almost can't get it right. People tend to either laugh at you if you are amazing at it or if you get it horribly wrong and you kind of need to be in the middle.
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that's not necessarily the thing that's gonna work for you throughout your life and your career. That's probably what was going through my mind at the time, other than I just need to get out of here because I'm so uncomfortable. And you're right, we had those oral exam, present your literature summary, and yeah, if something goes wrong, that's even during break time and recess, the kids are gonna make fun of you. That's right. So...
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had there anything been given to your class to prepare before being asked to speak? No, not at all. So that was zero preparation. We didn't know that we were gonna be picked on to ask questions. Okay, so that fear, you can sort of say it's kind of justified because we usually encourage people to say, if you know your speech, if you've prepared, like you said, for the next two weeks, if I'm speaking, I'm gonna be practicing every day. So you didn't have a chance to practice and...
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feel comfortable enough with your material to say when the lecturer calls me right now, I know what I'm gonna say. Not an unfounded fear, so to speak. And then secondly, the ones that were called out, in general, how did they perform and what was the class's reaction? I think they were absolutely fine. If I'm perfectly honest, I was so overcome with overwhelm.
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that I probably wasn't paying that much attention to the actual responses that other people were given. And I think this is a really interesting point to go down because a lot of the fear of public speaking comes from, you know, that fear of judgment or fear of being the center of attention. The reality is probably 50% of your audience is not listening to you or they're not fully focused on you because their thoughts are elsewhere.
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They have other things going through their mind, whether that's, you know, what am I going to have for dinner tonight? I hope the traffic's not bad on the way home. For me in that moment, it was, I need to leave here because I don't want to be picked on to speak today and understanding of not being the center of everybody else's universe is a really important thing in being a speaker, not to say that 50% of your audience is not listening to you.
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but actually to remove some of that pressure that you are the focus of them and the sole focus of everybody in your audience. Because they are not judging what you look like. They are not judging what you're wearing, how you sound, how many pauses you've inserted, how fast you're speaking. The reality is they are there to gather the information from you. And they may have trails of thought that send them down another path. So I find that...
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a little release of pressure because rather than you know a hundred eyes on you in a room and everybody is you know meticulously looking for a moment where you mess up that's just not the reality. So it's an interesting route to go down because we are the center of our universe every thought that we have comes from our brain with us in mind at the core of it. That's not the same for everyone else.
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they are the center of their universe. So I understanding that in the context of public speaking, you can give yourself some slack because you're not gonna get those judgments. And really the worst that you think might happen is a million miles away. It's very unlikely. That's interesting. Cause usually when we talk about the audience not judging you, we usually say, they are rooting for you actually to succeed.
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Cause like you said, you are bringing them the information they need. You know, your classmates were talking about whatever lecture series that was. So they are hoping that you will do well because the information you're bringing is going to benefit them. Yeah. Nobody wants you to mess it up because they think, Oh my goodness, after this lecture, I have no idea what we're going to be tested on. Nobody's thinking like that. That's right. The way that, that I framed it in that way, almost.
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brings it back to you being the center of your universe and brings it back to you being able to calm your mind. So I've heard, you know, the audience want you to succeed. That still comes with the pressure of, well, what if I don't succeed? So reframing it, it certainly went 10 years ago when I was in that situation, reframing it to go, actually the majority of the people here don't have their full focus on me.
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that removes a little bit of that pressure because it makes me more likely to be able to deliver at my best. But how you calm your mind is so important because if your mind isn't calm, you're going to be a chaotic deliverer of your presentation or your speech. And so it's such a critical piece of the puzzle. So how you manage your mind is going to be individual to you. But being able to relieve some of that pressure.
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is so important to be able to deliver it your best. When you feel pressure, you know, it's almost like even your brain freezes. You know how during exams you literally have a brain freeze, you forget stuff new just because the pressure and the anxiety just takes over. That's one way you can have a coping mechanism, like you said, to take the pressure off. That's actually the first time that
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I've heard someone put it that way to say that this was my coping mechanism and it works. So you said you started this live Twitter spaces. Would you like to walk us through that? Absolutely. So it's basically a big conference call that anybody can join at any time. You can start a Twitter space on any topic and everybody on Twitter can see that it's live and is a live event. So within Twitter spaces.
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There is no video, so you are audio only. There is no pressure to speak whatsoever. You can join as just a listener and probably have a host or a co-host. Now I started the public speaking Twitter space with my co-author because we both had an interest in it and we connected via Twitter. So we decided that we were going to, you know, share some tips and some stories. We have.
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picked up in our years of public speaking. We didn't expect it, but 150 people turned up to that first Twitter space. And so at the end, someone said, you know, is this going to run again? So at the same time next week, we decided let's do this again. Similar amount of people turned up. So this became a weekly event and it became an opportunity both for people to speak and share their experiences of public speaking.
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but also for people who were less comfortable speaking in public to get a first speaking rep in, in a situation where nobody can see them, they can have their notes in front of them and there is no pressure to talk for a long time. So we invited people to come to the mic and say, hello, this is my name and I just wanted to speak to get my first rep in. And we gave people that framework.
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Believe it or not, we had loads and loads of people just do that at the end of our spaces. From that moment, we had people come back and share their story. They did it in another Twitter space. And then they started hosting their own. And all of a sudden we realized, you know, the power of a social audio platform where you can have your notes in front of you. And, you know, a lot of those barriers to speaking in front of people were removed. We started it as initially as.
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This is a great topic and we'll enjoy speaking about this to actually becoming a forum where people attended again and again and again to share their journey, get their questions answered and also help other people along the journey of becoming a comfortable and a confident speaker in public. That is amazing. First of all, it's the first time I hear of live Twitter spaces.
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because usually you have LinkedIn having the audio rooms, you have, okay, Instagram Live has been there forever, there's Clubhouse. So I had no idea that Twitter got on that bandwagon as well. The one thing you mentioned, which is very key is it's the first step they took knowing they won't be judged over so nobody can see them. And so they are building these confidence step-by-step.
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What can you recommend for someone who probably doesn't have a Twitter account, but they want to start and say, you know what, I like this idea that Liam is sharing, but I'm not on Twitter. So if somebody is not on social media, for instance, what are some baby steps they can take to start practicing those nano speeches? I would say first of all, being able to do it in your most comfortable environment. So figure out.
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What is your comfortable environment? Is that at home talking to friends? Is it at work in the office over a coffee with a colleague? Is that via a video call? Is it via a phone call and start getting nano speech reps in, in that comfortable environment? So a lot of advice says, you know, throw yourself in the deep end, go and just deliver a presentation to someone. Now, I don't think that's helpful.
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I think being able to get your early reps in, in a place that's comfortable to you is so important because you want that rep to be successful. So have a conversation with somebody using the nano speech framework, get that successful rep in. They don't know that you're practicing your public speaking, which is the best thing about that conversation. Do a nano speech for 10 seconds, then do a nano speech for 20 seconds.
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then maybe you want to change the topic and then maybe you want to change the environment. Maybe you've been doing it via a video call, but you want to now do it in person. And I think there's scaling up over a couple of different things. There's scaling up of the different environments that you can speak in because virtual presentations are now a thing podcasting. This is a public speaking rep for me. And you can also then start thinking about what am I comfortable sharing?
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And what topics do I want to be able to scale up my ability to speak in public on? It's like climbing a ladder and you're just going one rung at a time. And we live in a society today where people are looking for quick fixes, hacks, quick wins, that doesn't work. If you don't build the foundations of being a speaker, the fall is going to be bigger if you try and, you know, skip a load of steps. So.
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start small with the nano speech in just daily conversations, then scale up. And that's the point then when you can start branching out into different arenas and getting comfortable first, then confident, and then only when you're comfortable and confident, do you then become a competent speaker. There was a LinkedIn live that I attended and the host was interviewing a guy who's actually in Singapore. And he was talking about how.
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I don't know how many years ago, but his boss actually asked him and said, you need to go and make this presentation to this potential client. He said, no, pick Liam, my colleague, for instance. First of all, imagine saying that to your folks like, I'm not going to do it, get somebody else to do it. Because he's been working for about 20 years. He spoke about how it became a hindrance to his career growth. The colleague that he said can be picked is the one who's
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career accelerated and got promoted instead of him because he wasn't willing to, but he realized that he needed to do something about it. Now, that was his story. And as he shared his story, you can see the comments, the majority of the comments were, how do I get started? Why isn't anyone telling me how to get started? How do I get started to speak for the first time?
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That how do I get started was the major percentage of the questions on the live as we were listening. Yeah, I can imagine. And I think there is so much advice out there, advanced techniques and you know, how long should I pause for and how long should I be on a slide for and all of these different things that actually, if you just want to get started and you hate speaking in front of people right now.
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That's all noise that's unhelpful. There's a really important piece of you don't have to throw yourself in the deep end. Just start small, get comfortable there, then go to the next level. The important thing here is to start way before you need it. Someone reached out to me a few weeks ago and said, I have the event of my life coming up and I've got to speak in front of 3000 people and I have a fear of public speaking.
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I don't know how to do it. Now, the reality is that that's too late in the game. Somebody like the guy on the LinkedIn Live I was on, if he needed to do that for his job within the next two days, he didn't have the luxury of starting in baby steps. That's right. And those are some of the people that I work with. The deep end is where they need to get thrown at work and suddenly...
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3000 people, what do I do? That's right. Yes. You're right. When you say start long before it's required, but if it's now I have to do it for my job, the deep end techniques, what would you say is a one or two that could work while you are doing the background work? So I gave the coaching client that reached out with this same problem.
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two very important specific things. The first is keep your preparation simple because then your delivery will be simpler for you. If you're delivering and being long-winded with your message and saying a lot of words, that doesn't mean your audience will understand more. Actually, it leaves more room for interpretation. So being clear and concise in your message is the most important thing that you can do.
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I have a full bullet point framework that I use every time I deliver a presentation or a speech. How am I going to open that is engaging and that doesn't run through an agenda, which actually is going to, you know, turn the attention away from the presentation. Second of all, what is the main point that you're going to deliver? If you can't get that down to one sentence, it is not clear enough.
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So your main point, you need to be able to deliver in one sentence. Then I like to attach a story to that main point. That story is going to help the audience remember that main point. And then the fourth piece, how am I going to transition to the next point? Or how am I going to close? I'd like to hear some questions from you, which is how most people in their presentations think about calls to action.
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Like the example that I use with my coaching client was if you're asking them to sign up to your email list or what do they think your next steps are, which is a common one in promotion conversations and things in the workplace. You can almost shape it around to here are some things that I'm going to be doing next. What is it that you would advise me to do on this path?
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And that's a different way of handing it over for questions without, you know, Oh, I finished and I'd like to hear some questions and then they ask you something so difficult sometimes. That's it. Why would you even think of that after what I've spoken? That's exactly it. Basically the advice that I would give is have something that you can open with that is really, really strong. That is not on agenda.
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something very different and make sure that you can transition between points very well. That's where your presentation is won or lost. Every time that you flick a slide is another opportunity for somebody to go, cool that's more words on a screen that I don't want to look at and read. Yes, if you put something where you're just going to read every single word like a novel, a lot of people read fast.
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They're going to read faster than you, then their minds are going to go away from you. Take off the attention from whatever it is you're presenting. So we usually advise that you don't put every single word of what you're going to say and just read the slides. Absolutely. If somebody can get everything that you're going to say just on the slides, you may as well not be there, just email them the presentation and you shouldn't make the slides for you as the speaker.
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the slides are for your audience. So if it doesn't help them understand better, then it shouldn't be in there. The slides are not the main event. The slides are your supporting act. And it's such a different approach in particular in the corporate space where corporate world loves bullet points. But if you go more down the images route and just a couple of keywords on screen, that's something that's gonna capture their attention.
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They are going to have to listen to you. Otherwise they don't know what's going on. So when you do email the sides afterwards, they need your narrative alongside it. You are the main event, not your slides. That's a such an important message that I think gets lost in the noise of preparing for public speaking and, you know, trying to think about all of the million and one things that are going to be going on in that public speaking event. So don't make the slides for you.
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make them for your audience. Have about two words for each bullet point, words that strike curiosity, but they don't tell the whole story because you are gonna be telling the story. People are gonna say, huh, what is that? I wonder what she's gonna say about that. So what would you say would be the three main takeaways from your book, Effortless Public Speaking? Number one, the nano speech. Number two,
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the importance of calming your mind. A lot of the time that noise comes from a lot of the logistical things that are not actually to do with the speaking. Is there gonna be parking at the venue? Is my video gonna work? What is the laptop gonna work? And all of the technical things that come with that. I think getting comfortable and getting those questions answered ahead of time is really important to help you calm your mind. And in addition to that,
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I would say when we prepare, everybody has a tendency to go over the stuff that you know, really, really well. And you ignore the bits that might be a little bit more difficult. And I think that needs to be in reverse. The things that you know really, really well, you're going to know that if you know it now, you're going to know it on the day when you come to speak. So start with the things that are going to be a little bit more difficult for you, a little bit more cognitive load.
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so that you can get that off the plate, so that you can go in as confident on those bits as the bits that already you know that you're going to talk about. The third takeaway that stands out for me is storytelling and the importance of it. Often people open with the agenda and those things that don't capture attention. People don't remember what you say, but they remember how you made them feel. And storytelling is...
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the way to make them feel. So if you want your message to be memorable, you need to tell stories that are compelling. And I think the great thing about storytelling is that they don't have to be extraordinary moments. If we think about our everyday lives, we get up, we have breakfast, we go to work, we come home from work, we make the dinner, we spend time with our family. Generally speaking, that is the life of most people.
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stories that you can tell that resonate with people are going to help make them feel and therefore remember your main points. So rather than an extraordinary story that people might not be able to relate to, create stories from those everyday moments that almost everybody in your audience are going to be able to relate to. That makes it different from just, you know, telling your story. You end up telling them their story because they are imagining themselves
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right there with you. So if you can tell the audience their story and make them feel and then deliver your main point at that peak moment where they are right there in the story, there you go. That's impact because they're going to remember that. That's going to be the piece where they go home and they tell their husband or wife, this person told this story today and it was amazing. And it didn't come from an extraordinary moment. We do feel
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quite often that, you know, stories have to come from crazy, different things. Sci-fi type of situations. No, that's not reality. Cause we always talk about being relatable. If you tell a story that almost comes from a sci-fi movie, what makes you think anybody's going to relate to that? That's right. They need to be relatable. Last words of wisdom, Lee and Sanford. So I would suggest, and this goes for all communication and all speaking. It's never about you.
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It's about your audience. And if you can communicate in a way that the other person receiving wants to be communicated with, you're going to better land your message. And if you tell stories from everyday moments, that's going to resonate with the majority of people. So use that to your advantage when you're delivering presentations, because storytelling is the way to be someone that people resonate with, but it's also the way to make your message.
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resonate with them and stick with them long after you've done speaking. Words of wisdom from Liam Sanford, the author of effortless public speaking. What is the one thing you feel like is a benefit for you as an entrepreneur for having learned these public speaking skills? Speaking is everywhere and I'm constantly connecting with other people.
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uh, who are entrepreneurs and creators online. I don't think anything of it now. I've jumped on this podcast and I'm not overwhelmed. I don't have a fear of public speaking anymore. This was just going to be a fun conversation that we were going to have. It is like years ago, I would have been so nervous and I would have been uncomfortable coming onto a podcast and the opportunities that have almost come in front of me.
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through overcoming a fear of public speaking and going on to, you know, being able to speak stress-free in public, it's amazing. It has opened doors. I'm able to step into opportunities and speak to people that I wouldn't have been able to do years ago. Just wanna make one more point here, Roberta, which I think is really important. Go ahead. Is that nerves are not the same thing as not having confidence. Although, like I can speak in public stress-free.
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That doesn't mean I don't get nervous. I still do. So that's right. And I think people confuse the two. So they think, oh, if you're nervous, you're not confident. But I've been able to do this conversation in this podcast stress-free. I still had nerves at the start. Michael Jackson was nervous before going on stage. Well, that's right. It didn't stop him. If you're not nervous, you're not challenging yourself. He's still got nerves. Absolutely. So it's okay to be nervous.
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just channeling them in a way that turns it from, I can't do this into, this is a great opportunity and I'm gonna show what I can do here. I think that shift is so important and that is probably been the thing that, you know, has benefited me most in being an entrepreneur through learning speaking. You don't know what opportunities are around the corner. If you can speak well and you can write well, the world is your oyster.
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It certainly is. And thank you so much, Liam, for learning to speak because it brought you to this show and we got to meet you and learn so much from you because your story is gonna resonate with so many. It's not a Captain America superhero story, but what makes you a superhero is the fact that so many people are going through the very same thing right now, and you've given us tools in order to know how to take the baby steps to get to where we need to.
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So thank you so much for being here today. Thanks very much, Roberta. Really enjoyed this conversation. I certainly did myself. And before you go, we can refine you on social. So we know Twitter, so please give us all your other social media handles. So you find me on Twitter at Liam Sandford. You can find me on LinkedIn by searching for me. You can find everything in my whole portfolio on liamsandford.com. Liamsandford.com.
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Thank you for being on our show today. Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show, please email me and my contact details will be found on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader.
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and becoming the change you want to see. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come.