Speaking and Communicating Podcast

There are over 30 dialects of English in America alone, over 166 dialects of English in the world. There's no native English speakers. That's it. When someone comes to you and says,
Oh, I really want to sound like a native English speaker. All right, which one?

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work,
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Pitch to investors or an entrepreneur looking to showcase the innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, which is a centralized hub that helps listeners become their best selves at work and in life. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com.
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And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify. Leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss on this podcast that will be beneficial to you. Let's get communicating.
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My guest today is a good friend of mine because we share so much in common, not only professionally, but personally as well as aunties. She is a master in communications and all different facets of it. Starting with being a TEDx speaker, a podcast host of Connected Communications Podcast, a public speaking and presentation coach,
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And her mission is to help you become a phenomenal presenter. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Christine. Hello. Thank you for having me. What a lovely introduction. It's great to be here. Oh, thank you so much for your kindness. Thank you for being here. Welcome to the show. Please introduce yourself to our listeners. Oh, I'm not sure what I can add there. I might say I have another mission on top of helping people to become
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phenomenal presenters and by phenomenal presenters, I would include in that just presenters of themselves. I don't mean just presentation skills. When we meet at networking events, in meetings, at the water cooler in a company, in a sales pitch, they are all times when we present ourselves. So my real goal, well, I have a couple of them. One of them is to abolish the term native English speaker or native speaker altogether.
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Another is to empower a million bilingual professionals to stand strong in their confidence, allow themselves to be seen, heard and promoted to the positions they deserve in the workforce. Native English speaker, there's so much we have in common and one of the things we have in common, we, I taught in South Korea, you know, English is a second language. You currently even have clients who are from non-English speaking countries.
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That term was used to describe us teachers who came to teach English in South Korea. So what is it that you have as like, oh, that's not my favorite term? Well, it's loaded with bias and it creates an attitude of the word imperialism is what comes to me because of course it comes out of the UK, you know, but there's a stigma attached to people who don't speak English as a first language that they're not good enough.
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that they have to be perfect and they need to speak in a certain way to be able to be heard and understood. On the opposite side, there is a status associated with so-called native English speakers, people whose first language is English, that gives them, in many cases, and I'm not saying this applies to everybody, of course, but creates a sense of being better than others in them.
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and a belief that they don't have to learn another language, that they don't have to listen to somebody else or try to hear what they're trying to say, instead they can just dismiss them while they've got a really strong accent, I'm not gonna pay attention, someone will translate it for me later. That's really why, because it's loaded with bias. And I think it stops so many people from putting themselves forwards, from allowing themselves to speak, feeling confident.
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and recognizing that if they have the skills in their first language, they also have the skills in another language. It's just a matter of transferring them and understanding the different ways to communicate with different English speakers. I mean, there are over 30 dialects of English in America alone, over 166 dialects of English in the world. There's no native English speakers. That's it. When someone comes to you and says,
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Oh, I really want to sound like a native English speaker. All right, which one? Out of the 166. Out of the 166, you want to sound Irish? Do you want to sound British from this part of the UK, this part of the UK, this part of the UK, which part of America do you want to sound like you're from? Do you want to sound like you're from Malaysia, from India? Where are we going with this? I never really thought about it like that before. I just want people to understand me.
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So you actually just want to speak clearly. It's not necessarily that you want to sound like this native speaker ideal that you've been led to believe exists, but that you just want to be understood. And so that means clarity, of diction, enunciation, understanding how to pace and pause yourself across cultures and nationalities so that you can include everybody in your communication. Yeah, that would work for me. All right.
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When I say that, that's something very different. It sounds very different for sure. Inclusivity as well, which you're gonna talk about. But when you say there's this thing of, oh, it's better than others, or speaking the language makes it feel like you're better than others. One time I had a whole BTS, I think they were winning a Grammy that year for the first time in America. And with my middle schoolers, I said, why do you learn English? I remember this particular one said.
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Teacher, I want to learn English so I can go to America and marry Justin Bieber, okay, follow the discussion. But I said to them, just remember one thing, English is not better than Korean. Korean will always be your first language. You learn English because you want to have more global opportunities because the world is, you know, and it is considered, not that it's better, it's considered the global language of business.
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You don't want to restrict yourself to just speak Korean and I'll only be in Korean communities for the rest of my life. I understand that, but understand that it's not better. With regards to inclusivity, when you talk about those biases earlier, so that means basically we're doing the opposite of being inclusive when we have those attitudes towards people who don't speak English as a first language. There's a lot of bias and inclusivity. I think it's a word that's bandied about.
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are used very simply and easily these days. And I said, when I say bandied about, that's a very Irish term. In other words, it's just used without thinking, oh, I'm inclusive. Oh, I want to express my diversity. We're doing diversity and inclusion this week. And this is how we're doing it. Around on the show all the time. Yeah. So when it comes to bias, I mean, we're all biased. It's a natural.
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thing in the brain. It's natural for us to be biased. It's not natural for us to judge. The Neuro Leadership Institute has identified, I believe, over 150 different biases, and they break them down into this model. They're really clever in how they communicate things. So the model is called the Seeds model. Now I have to test myself and see if I remember it. Right. The first one, S, is similarity. So a similarity bias where you're similar to me, I'm going to go to you first.
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When you move to a new place, you naturally gravitate, for example, towards the Irish Bar if you go to Spain. Then the second one, experience, experience, distance and safety. OK, that's the five of them out. Now that I have them out, I'll be able to remember them. So expedience is about the speed of doing something, cutting corners, in other words. How fast can I do this? Oh, I did it this way before.
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I can do it this way again, it works exactly the same way. That might be experience. I always mix those two up. But then move on to experience bias. Yeah, I did it this way before. It's gonna work exactly like this. I'm in this new company, in this new job. It's in a similar industry. This is gonna work. Well, hang on a minute, I don't know anything else, but we don't realize we don't know all those things yet for the new company. Right. So that's experience bias. You're using your experience to...
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take actions that you think are the right actions, but you haven't considered all the options. Distance bias then is how far or near you are to something. So if you think about being in a business meeting, when you run hybrid training, you've got some people in a business meeting who are sitting at the table in the room, and you've got two or three people who are dialing in.
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If you don't have everybody who's in the room on an individual laptop looking directly at the person who's online or the people who are online, there's a distance created between the people who are dialing in online and the people who are in the room. Naturally, we go to the people who are closest to us. We talk amongst ourselves in the room and then the people who are online are excluded. It's very, very difficult for them not to be. I had this experience. I was given training somewhere.
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in the company last year, it wasn't possible for us to bring in an individual laptop for everybody. I did request that there were laptops on the table, so we had four of them there for the pairs, and we had the people who were dialing in on separate screens, so they had a screen each. But it was still incredibly difficult to manage making sure the two people who were dialing in felt fully included, and there were certainly times where they got lost.
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in the motions of everything happening in the room, because I would have to split myself between making sure they're engaged, talking to them and managing the people in the room. And also then getting the people in the room to connect with them on the screen, you know? Yeah. They're there, check in with them, please. Are you sending them messages? Are you working up with them in the chat? Oh yeah, okay, we need to do that. So that's distance and safety. Safety exactly as it means.
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We like to keep ourselves safe. The brain runs away from threat towards reward. So we don't take risks necessarily. The safety bias can be, I've never made this decision before. I'm not sure if I'm gonna get promoted this year or not. If I make this decision and it backfires, I'm probably not gonna get promoted. So I'm gonna stay safe and I won't take the risk. So all those biases exist and experience is bugging me now.
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experiences like when something is you expedite something you make it you get it done faster. So it's got a link with experience. Sometimes we do this, what takes up less energy for me to do. So yeah, speak to you which which we would use the term native speaker even though we've talked about why it's a problematic one. If I speak to you versus listening to someone who is from an
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the expediency is, it's just gonna go faster with you because there's less explaining. And therefore I feel like, oh, I'm gonna spend less energy having this conversation with you rather than the exact bias. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And also not taking the time to think.
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I want to do this really fast. It needs to get done. So exactly like you say, who do I choose? I choose the people whom I won't have to explain it two, three times or who I won't have to check on to make sure that they get it done right. And I make sure that the people and the teams and the others who are involved will get this done as quickly as they possibly can so that I look good. They're unconscious in many cases. We do these things naturally.
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So when we talk then about inclusivity, which your question was about, all of these biases exist. Some of them we are aware of, we engage in them anyway, because they do make things faster, whatever other reason. Some of them are unconscious, and it's about then engaging the brain and the system to recognize, oh, what am I doing here? What's popping up for me? Is there a bias that I'm allowing to take over my thinking?
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What can I do with this? How can I be more inclusive? And native speaker, I don't use the term. Listen to some of my older content, you will hear me use it. Even some of the content on my platform, I do use it in. And then as I progressed into my decision on it and my thinking on it, I don't use it. When people use it with me, I return a different turn of phrase. I don't cut around it ever.
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you will not hear me use it unless I put my fingers up around my head. Or I say so-called, or I'm using it in this example as we're discussing it here. Because for me, the way to change a habit and to change a behavior is to stop the behavior and then call it out when it is engaged in. And I have no problem talking to people who insist upon using it and having that conversation with them, particularly.
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so-called native English speakers who believe that they are better. Unfortunately, yes, that belief still lingers. And then when it comes to pronunciation, what made you decide that's also going to be one of your focuses? Because the reason I ask that question, I used to encourage my students to not worry about having perfect grammar, because it used to hinder them from even trying.
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You know, it's either I speak perfectly to Roberta teach in English or I don't try at all. And I used to say to them, the focus is not to be perfect. So they used to worry about not only grammar, but how they sound, how they pronounce words. Why do you focus on helping your clients with pronunciation as well? Because pronunciation doesn't mean perfection and pronunciation and enunciation and clarity of diction don't mean accent loss.
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clarity. And there's a very big difference between speaking clearly using a prosodic rhythm or the rhythm of English, so the music of English, in a way that allows other people to follow you more easily and getting rid of your accent. There are two different things. We can bifurcate them, but people blend them. We can separate them, but people blend them. You mean pronunciation and accent? Yeah, but people say, oh, I need perfect pronunciation.
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I need to get rid of my accent. I need to sound like a native speaker. I need to sound perfect. But pronunciation means when it's developed, clarity of diction, clear speech. So I could speak to you now and I could speak like this. And if I speak like this, I'm lazy. I'm lazy. You hear the difference in my clarity. Yeah, your mouth barely opened and it seemed like the words were not projecting out.
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So when we think about articulation, and I know you asked why I chose it, and I will answer that, but when I relate it to people that I work with, there are certain linguistic backgrounds that need to produce sounds differently to how sounds are produced in their languages, because the brain can't follow what they have to say if they don't enunciate clearly.
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So with articulation, I have a free lesson on my website that has the five golden rules of articulation. Two page or three page PDF, it explains the golden rules of articulation and then has an exercise breaking them down. And what it is, is accuracy. So accuracy with how you land your sounds, deliberation, thinking about how you form the sounds in your mouth, fluency, how fluid and fluent your sounds are.
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firmness, so the crispness or the firmness of your sounds. I can't remember the last one, but there's five of them. So if people want the fifth one, go and get the lesson. How about that? I'll tell you the words I can show you. My brain is holding it back for a reason. Sometimes the slightest shift in a mouth, in the position of the tongue or the jaw or the lips or the teeth.
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moving with the tongue or the jaw or the lips, completely changes how a person is received. And when that changes and they recognize that change, people start to follow them more easily because that's how the brain works. So I posted a video actually today on LinkedIn about priming in the brain. The way that the brain works in terms of language chunking and listening is that it is primed for what's coming next.
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So if we think about English and I say to you black and white, bread and butter. Right. So what's happening here? Your brain is primed. You know, they're, they're binomials. So you know that in English we say black and white. Those words work together. If I said white and you'd probably say black, but you think, why did you say it like that? That was backwards. Oh yeah. Then if it's backwards, my brain actually has to put the energy to paint.
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Yeah, exactly. Your brain has to use energy to think. Now, in Spanish, as far as I understand, it's Blanco y Negro. So it's white and black. They would do it in reverse. Yes, yes. OK. So if you come in from Spanish and you're presenting or you're speaking and this is an example of this kind of phrase, but there are other phrases or terms that you might use and you slip the sound to a different rhythm. If the listener was expecting a word to come
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after something you've said, subconsciously expecting it. They're following the flow of your speech and in their head the next word that you're going to say is white because they've heard black and white so many times their brain is primed to know that that's what's coming next and you say rustic brown, black and rustic brown. Oh rustic brown, well what was that? Their brain is jolted and as you said it uses more energy. So now think about the person who's not used to hearing your accent.
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The person who maybe has a bias against your accent, the person who thinks that they don't need to try to hear what you're saying or extend their ears even somewhat to try and follow and understand. You've got all these walls up already before you even begin to speak. And then you start speaking and you push on words that don't make sense for you to push on. And the rhythm is all off. What happens? The brain can't follow it.
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and not be understood. People don't want to listen. People don't pay attention. You don't get asked questions. And this is the reason. And it's sometimes just as simple, as I said, as learning how to move your jaw differently or finding the rhythm of English. And the world, English language schools, because they want to sell it, frighten people into thinking this is something difficult. And in four sessions with me, I'll have you in it. It's only a matter of understanding the prosodic rhythm of speech. It's really not that complicated at all.
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So I haven't answered your question. I recognize that. Right. The reason I'm in it, or it's one of the elements of what I do, is because one, I love it. There is such an incredible feeling when you bring someone to a place where they recognize the impact that their diction might be having on others. Usually it's through poetry. Find a poem that they love. We do it with my one-to-one clients. It's partly in...
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one-to-one sessions but I have a training platform that as you know that they go into in advance. So at the moment for example I'm working on pace with a client from Singapore. Pitch, pace, pause, power, inflection and tone all go together. They're the modulation facets. That's not clarity of diction, that's something different, that's the rhythm. But we started with pace. When you see them come back to you after they've listened to the content, they apply the technique, the mouth starts moving differently.
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They realised that a sound is a diphthong instead of a monophthong. Oh, I have to move my mouth twice for that. I never knew that before. That's just a simple little thing. Yeah, you just need to move your mouth. It's two jaw movements there. OK, right. Oh, wow. Oh, that's a lot easier. All right. And if I shorten that, OK. OK, how can you apply this at work next week? They go and they apply it and they come back in. People didn't ask me so many questions or asked me to clarify as much this week. Oh, how did that feel? Yeah, it felt really great. I think you see the shoulder.
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change and you see them lift. That's why I'm in it, still in it. I got into it because I started training in speech and drama with my mum when I was seven. So by 16, 17, I had trained in the classification of speech, vowel sounds, consonant sounds, and we had to learn the Latin and everything around them. So where they go in the mouth and the different terms. And as I worked in English language schools and with
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private clients through mum's school, helping them with public speaking. I started to realize that I have a gift, which I tested on my aunt once. It was really cool. She's a former CEO. She's nearly retiring now, but has been one of my biggest inspirations. She's massive in the oil industry in the UK and globally. And she was home once. There was a word that she wasn't able to pronounce. And she told me, you know, I've never been able to pronounce it. I said, I'll bet you I'll be able to teach you how to pronounce it. Nope.
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I've been with coaches all over the world. There's no nobody's ever been able to do it. Try me. And in less than 90 seconds, she pronounced the word. Yeah. So I have a gift. I can hear in a mouth where the tongue is being positioned, which is causing a sound to be, I don't like the word mispronounced, but pronounced inaccurately, I'm going to say. So I'll get somebody to say something and I'll listen. OK.
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And just, can you do it again a couple of times for me? And I know it might feel a little bit awkward, but to let me hear it, to let me hear it. Okay, right. I might correct that the tip of your tongue is touching the bottom part of the back of your teeth when you make the sound. And then they, oh yeah, it is. Okay, right. Where does it need to be? And then they'll start thinking about it. I'll make the sound a couple of times. They can start moving their mouth. It's fun, you know, because we're both sitting like this.
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frogs riveting on a pond and then we compare it to their own language. So if we took a sound, we did this when we first met. Remember, we talked about the TH sound. Yes, I think I did this with you. I was listening to you and I was like, is this where your tongue is? When we first met. But this is something might be interesting for people who are listening. So it was Zulu, wasn't it? We talked about the TH. Yes, in Zulu and that T.
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in English in Zulu it's th in Zulu you have t alone it's uh remember I was saying if it's t alone we have to put the h to say t like you would say the t alone in English but in English the th is then yeah so the th comes out between the teeth in English and it's aspirin vocalized with two th's
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But then again in Zulu, can you give me a word with it in it? So in Zulu, if you have T alone without the H, it's eh. One more time. So my tongue is at the back of the gums, not the teeth. So it's eh. Is it your gums or is it up on the alveolar ridge at the top of your mouth? Almost at the top, go a little bit forward in the front as if you're approaching the teeth, but you're not there yet.
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Yes, that's called the alveolar ridge. Right. So, uh. Uh, but it's a... And when you blow, yeah, you blow at the same time as you say the sound. So you say, uh. So it's almost like the... We did this, yeah. Ta ta ta. Yes. We say ta ta ta. And then I said, but if you want to say ta in my language, as you do in English, then you must put the H. It's TH. But then in English it becomes a ta.
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Ah, cool. And that's why I still do it. Because it fascinates me. The different positions, T and TH particularly, T and D especially, across languages, are pronounced in different parts of the mouth. The tongue, so when you say tak, tak in Polish, because I lived in Poland for a number of months, so I could speak kind of beginner Polish.
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What I learned at one point was the positioning of some of the sounds, which was really interesting. I was speaking to a speech and language therapist one night. She helped me. I have all these pictures of me moving my mouth in different ways to learn the positions for Polish. But the T and this is Polish, Russian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, I think Czech as well. There's some Slavic based languages and I know some Czech people will tell me it's not Slavic based, but there are.
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There are similarities in positions. The tac means yes. So if you hear the ta, ta, it's a bit actually like you were one from Zulu. Ta, ta, tac, tac. And if I say tac in English, like a blue tac or a tac on the wall, the tongue comes back further. Tac, ta, tac. Yeah. Take, tall. So the tip of my tongue.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a fast movement rather than the tongue stays longer in position. Yeah, there's no projection forward of it like you would have in Zulu. And it's aspirate. So there's no vocalization. There's no movement in the throat. But it's about the position of the tip of the tongue as well. So the tip comes back to that alveolar ridge we talked about a little bit further back. Whereas when I say tak, tak, the tip of my tongue is a little bit flatter and it's almost like the front of my tongue.
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partly touches the teeth and the ridge at the top. Tuck, tuck, tuck. So if I come into English and I say, talk, I was talking to the teacher. Right. You hear the way that the T is coming out. That T, yes. That creates a breakdown in communication because people can't hear that it's a T if it's very strong. So that tiny little, just move your tongue back a little bit in the mouth there.
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Just move the tip of the tongue back a little bit. And then say for me, talk, tongue, talk. Oh, as I feel. And then it sounds like, yes. Tiny, tiny, tiny little change. It makes a huge difference. Tiny little difference making a huge difference and also hopefully not only improving communication but breaking down some of those biases we talked about earlier. Yeah, and breaking down the disconnect.
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and in fact creating more of a connection. And then when you start to talk about it, you can create even more connection because people don't realize a lot of things. And a lot of people whose first language is not English, who work in English speaking companies or work with a lot of English speakers, hold themselves back in conversation about what they find challenging, the things they've had to overcome to get to where they are.
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If they actually said to somebody, you know, the way that you say tea in English is completely different to the way that we say tea in my language. The English speaker in many cases will say, what do you mean? Well, when you pronounce it and you have the conversation then about the differences across the languages and what you find is that people are actually quite fascinated when you start to have the conversation. That's what helps to overcome the bias, because that brings in awareness. I never thought about that.
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I didn't realize there was such a struggle. It was so different. I just thought all languages were pronounced the same. Oh, well, no, in fact they're not. Not at all. And the thing is, speaking of those coming from English-speaking countries, you were talking about how usually, obviously every case is different, but just generally, they don't learn another language. I think one of the advantages of being South African is that, well,
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Currently, my country has 11 official languages, nine of which are African tribes. And then you've got English, you've got Afrikaans, the Dutch language. So I speak Zulu, English, I learned Afrikaans in school. So I know how to pronounce the T for instance, in these three different languages, and it's all different. So when I get exposed to a language, even one I haven't been exposed to before, I am immediately aware of the fact that something is gonna be different.
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I'm open to it. I'm ready for it. So I think the disadvantage of speaking only one language and being exposed to English is the only language, you know, when you grow up is that then those biases are subconsciously, you know. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd agree with you that they're not taught other languages. In Ireland, we grow up. And from the moment we hit school, we learn Gaelgha, the Irish language.
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When we get into secondary school, then we have to choose our streamed language. So I learned French at primary school and I learned Spanish at college. The manner of teaching doesn't mean that I know how to speak them. That's very different. Mind you, my Spanish lecturer at college, was one of the best women I've ever met and a fantastic lecturer. I was quite advanced by the end of it. The UK, there's less of a language learning rate. Yeah, that is absolutely true. They don't not learn languages.
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It's just not as necessary to know other languages or hasn't been up to now as necessary to know other languages because English was this global dominating language. But now that workforces are so much more global and people are moving more and more, it's becoming more important because companies are starting to look for people who are multilingual.
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You only speak English, you know what? I actually don't want you working for me because 10 of my customers are in 10 different countries and if you have three or four languages under your belt, you're one person compared to the other three that I would need to hire on top of you if you only speak English. So go learn another language, mate. Yes. I think you're right about that. Like for instance, I have, since being in America, I have friends who say, Oh yeah, in high school I took French, but taking French versus
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actually being fluent in speaking it and you can potentially work for a company based in France is a whole different story. If it's not required as you say for instance with me the three languages if I did well on my science my math in high school and I failed one of the languages I would have to repeat the entire grade. Well that's how emphasize the word yes you had to be fluent in all three.
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So that's a lot different from, oh yeah, I took a Spanish class. Oh yeah, I took a French class. I took a German class. And it sounds like sometimes it's something that I might be wrong, but it's something they might have done for just that one degree or for the credits to be together. But other than that, I don't think it's something that is emphasized. I say be almost as fluent in it as you are in English already, that you already speak. Yes, fluency is certainly a different thing.
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The language proficiency doesn't equal communication competency. So even if I speak Spanish to a level of fluency that would allow me to work in the language, that doesn't mean I can go to Spain and work and communicate effectively in the language, because communication is very different to language. To fluency and proficiency. Yeah, well, let's talk about the so-called native speaker again. Would you agree?
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or disagree that, again, the so-called native speaker, when you meet different people whose first language is English, they're not necessarily proficient in communication. Oh, yeah. We used to hang out quite a bit in Korea. So-called native speakers from seven different countries. And when we get together as teachers, yes, it doesn't necessarily mean you...
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Clarify, which you talked about clarity earlier, your communication is so clear that I understand exactly what the message is. Yeah, there's that, but there's then communication across cultures. So what did I do today? I think I posted, I've done a couple of reels today so I can refer to them. Was it Facebook today that I did a reel on? No, it was last week on American communication and communication in Ireland.
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I played the American and I talked in the way that, well, one American accent, the way that American might talk to one of their team members. So I did it like that. I break my reels up into two different people and one was the American and one was the Irish person. And what I was demonstrating was that in many parts of America, I'm not gonna say all, very big place and the culture of communication is different in different parts. They're much more direct.
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and forward in places like New York and Boston than they are in California, let's say for instance. But what I'm getting at here is that the mannerism of communication is different. So a boss might say to me in America, do that now and bring it back to me by the end of the day because they need to get it done and it's direct, that's it. Whereas an Irish boss will come in and say, would you mind please completing that report for me by the end of the day? And it would be wonderful if you could drop it in on my desk before you go.
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So there's a big long string of words there, but we use a lot of modals. We use hedging. We are very polite. Of course, you're going to have the Irish boss that is not like that. So anybody who's listening, they are not like that. Fine. But for the most part, for much of the part, we are quite polite, formal and nice. There's somewhat of a British flair to it as well. The British can be like this too. So I take my language proficiency.
36:30
I'm Irish and I'm wonderful at English, for example. And I walk into a farm in New Zealand or Canada. Canada would probably be easier because the culture is closer in some ways to the British. But in New Zealand, I've never worked in New Zealand before. I haven't met many people from New Zealand. I don't know the communication culture in New Zealand. And I walk into a meeting and speak to them like I'm in Ireland. And they're used to maybe a more direct form of communication.
36:59
They're not going to listen to me. Even though in that particular example, you're being more polite and so it should be kind of music to the ears, but because that's not how they communicate, it's not going to resonate the way it would to an Irish. Yeah, I mean, just as art and beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so too is communication. It's different across the world. So in a meeting in Australia, we go into a lot of different details here.
37:28
because we have to think about men and women and there are changes happening with regards to women being accepted more so in meetings and in certain positions in Australia, because for a long time it was quite a big boys club a bit like the States as well and much of the world. But there is a joviality. It's a kind of a matey feeling. Being friends. Don't come in as being really formal. Don't come in with a really high status and make yourself out to be better than all of the rest of us, because if you do, we'll cut you down really fast.
37:58
That's the typical way for Australia. So then you've got someone who might come in from the US. They're used to being treated with very high status. They are the top dog in the company, the most important person. They like to be treated with respect. They feel they deserve respect. They've got a nice suit, a nice car, big money. And they come in and they flash that all around. They call it the tall poppy syndrome in Australia.
38:25
And what they mean by that is that don't come in here with your tall puppies. We're going to cut your puppies down. So you sit down there, but you're no different to any of the rest of us. We're all people. So that's, I mean, when I say cross-cultural communication, I speak French, but do I understand how meetings work in French or in France? And then in this particular company and in this particular department of the company, you break it down and break it down and break it down. Culture is an iceberg.
38:53
As one of the models shows, I don't know who owned the iceberg model, but it's often represented as an iceberg. You only see the tip and everything else is underneath. And then you were talking earlier about how to sell yourself when you communicate. So when you work with non-English speaking professionals and they want to work in these global English based companies, what are some of the tips and strategies you share with them in selling themselves?
39:23
Well, as a coach, I tend to try to not share myself because the coaching process is that we believe that it's all inside the individual and we have them to pull it out of themselves. I will, with their permission, if they want to go in that direction, and if we move into a training mode rather than a coaching mode, then bring in tips and strategies. So if someone comes in for coaching and pure coaching.
39:53
And they say, well, look, I've got a really big presentation coming up or I've got a sales pitch. Let me use one of my clients as an example here. When we first started working together, it was for pronunciation and a bit of more clarity of diction, working on pitch and enunciation. And then suddenly I have a massive sales tour to give. There's a new client coming in. I have to bring them around at the warehouse. Can we work on it? Of course we can. So it means we move from coaching into training.
40:22
techniques, the way that I thread stories, the way that I weave things. So the first thing that I will say is to record it. I always get my clients to send me a recording of the tour or the pitch or the presentation that they'll give. And then I'll break it down, slide by slide, block by block. We start then firstly to think about the audience. Who's coming, where are they coming from? What's the makeup? What's the age? What's their background experience? What do they want to know? And if you don't know what they want to know, how can you find out?
40:52
Who can tell you? Is it somebody inside the company who can tell you? Is it somebody in the client company who can tell you? Do you need to ask them yourself? What can you find out about them online? Personal and professional. Because when you know that somebody, for example, values their children and they put the development of the youth above almost everything else in the world, then when you bring them on that tour to your facility and you drop in little comments.
41:21
about the fact that your company is working towards a better future for our young people, then you connect with their values. And when you connect with the person's values, you appeal to their emotion. But not everybody's emotions need to be appealed to. Sometimes it's appealing to reason. So when we think about persuasion, we think about where we need to appeal to. And I use again the NeuroLeadership Institute, the SCARF assessment. Is it status? Is it certainty? Is it
41:49
Is it relatedness and is it fairness? If it's certainty, we're appealing to reason. If it's, and so they need data, they need facts, they need to reasonably understand what's happening, they need to feel secure and sure. If it's everything else, it's emotion. So what excites them? Is it a sense of adventure? Is it a desire for something greater to leave their mark? Do they need reward and recognition? Do they need to feel accepted and loved? Do they need to feel like it's fair and everybody else is getting an opportunity?
42:19
So when I give the tips and techniques, that's part of where we start. Where are they on the scarf? What do you know about your audience? What else can you find out? And then we do it from start to finish. Before they arrive is equally as important as the moment they arrive. What have you given them in advance? Have they got agendas? Do they know where they're going? Who's meeting them? Are they getting welcomed in? What do you have ready for them when they're welcomed in? Is there something on the table? Is it the first time they've been in the country or in your state?
42:49
What can you have that's going to make them feel special? What's happening in that first 15 minutes? How do you connect? Is there small talk? Who's going to be there? And then we move into the actual presentation itself. Not being afraid to say at the beginning of it, what do you want from me today? What do you need? Because a lot of people don't do this. They think, oh, because of myself, I have to do this perfectly. I have to speak in the right way and I have to give them all the right information and tell them everything. Hang on a second. Relax yourself there.
43:19
Take the focus off yourself. You're not the most important person in the room. Your client is. They are. What do you need from me today? What do you wanna know about? What's most important to you? These are the three things that are most important. Fantastic. You've already prepared your stories. Your personal stories, but personal career stories. So what other clients have you done these things for? How can you refer and weave and thread in examples throughout your tour of what you've done before?
43:48
how it's been successful and how it applies to their needs. So when you hear those needs in advance, then you can flex and adjust your content throughout your tour to meet those needs. So by the end of it, you might get questions. The questions will be more about what else you can do for them and how you can start working together, as opposed to questions to clarify anything because you have given them everything they need.
44:15
It is definitely all about them. So take the thing away from you. Yeah. And don't be afraid to say that's a great question. I don't have that data with me right now. If you need it before you leave, I'll get it for you. And I'll sign you get on the phone, get me this. Have it for me when I get back to the meeting room after the tour. Or if not, I'll follow up with you afterwards and I'll send you over a presentation or I'll workshop it for you. Nobody expects you to know everything. Of course not.
44:41
Well, some do. I mean, I agree with you. For the most part, people don't. But you do get people who come in, who intentionally try to put people in positions where they will catch them out. Oh, yes, they do exist. I'm not quite sure. They do. They do. And that comes. Yes. So when you have that, right, where is this person coming from? That's status. They're coming from a place of status here. Maybe it's certainty, but generally it would be a place of status, right?
45:10
they know more or that I don't know enough. And often, I work with a lot of women, often this is a man who believes a woman doesn't know as much or doesn't have the capacity or doesn't have the knowledge. And this is when it's really important for the woman, not only the woman, the man as well, who comes in from another language because they can sometimes be afraid that they can't express it in the way they need to in the other, in English. To be able to stand in their power, take a deep breath.
45:38
Emotional regulation is key. So we'll do work on emotional regulation in the moment, managing your own emotions and someone else's. And look at the person and inside your head, maybe you can change them into a cartoon character if you need to, to make yourself giggle inside, because that breaks down any fear or panic. You can quote Christine on that. Yeah, yeah. Look at sometimes I look at people and I imagine them if they were one of the Simpsons or you just you make them funny in your brain.
46:07
Because when you do that, you kick yourself with a little bit of dopamine and you break down any of that cortisol and the threat. They just become a human or even a cartoon character in this case. So they're like a fluffy bunny. There's no more threat. And when there's no more threat, you're able to think rationally. Yeah. So maybe they just need a bit of certainty here. That's why they're pushing me so much, because they were let down before. Or are they afraid? Are they having a bad day?
46:34
about something else that doesn't really matter or connect with this, but they're taking it out on this because they can. What do I need to give them? I'm just going to take the behavior. Maybe they're from a different culture and that's how they communicate in that culture. And I need to just step back and say, okay, this is their mannerism, take it right with it and keep giving them what they need. Keep giving them what they need.
47:02
The Connected Communications podcast, just before you go, please give us briefly why you started it and what it is that you focus on. I focus on connected communication. Communication for me is about finding your connection with self. So the four pillars of awareness that I work from are self-awareness, brain awareness, linguistic awareness, and cultural awareness. And I have coined the term for this.
47:32
I'm working on trademarking as neuro-cultural communication. I started it to help people connect with themselves first of all. Go inside, find out what makes them tick, find out what they like, they enjoy, what triggers them and how to manage and balance their emotions. To be able to then take that authenticity from inside the self and use it to reach out and connect to others.
48:01
I started it because I love talking to people like you and the other people that I'm interviewing. And if I'm completely honest, because for most of my life, I have wanted to be a radio show host. I never tried it. I never went for it. You would be so good at it. It was always something I wanted. And you have the voice for it too. Secretly. Thank you. And somebody told me that on a telephone call when I worked for a logistics company in Australia once. This guy was a customer.
48:31
And he was in Perth and he had a problem with his logistics. And he said, you know, you've a great voice for radio. You ever thought about it? I've thought about it. So that's the reasons why one, because I love to share my knowledge, my experience and to research more, to be able to share it more, to be able to connect with people from all over the world and build my network and build my connections, learn from them like I did from you last week. And I am from others that I speak to. Thank you.
49:02
And yeah, be my own radio host that nobody gets to take away or to control or to limit or silence or shadow ban or anything else of the sort so that people all over the world can connect and communicate together. And coming in a few months, we're going to start talking about languages and accents and bias. And that's a mark that I want to leave on the world.
49:31
languages and accents and bias, some of what we touched on today for sure. Yeah, well, I hope you'll be part of the panel. My goal is to have a panel discussion. So anybody actually who's listening, if you come from a different linguistic background other than English and you would like to join a panel discussion probably end of August, September. Yeah, I mean, you're on my list for sure. I want to explore with maybe six or seven people, six or
50:00
different linguistic backgrounds, the experience of language and accents and bias in their lives from a career perspective, from a communication perspective and where the world can go if we maybe abolish the term native speaker. And if we start to step out of this bias and as I said in one of my podcast episodes about native speakerism, unite in celebration of our differences.
50:29
because we are all different, but that's what makes us wonderful. That's the beauty. That's where it lies. Yeah. Yeah. The words of wisdom from Christine Mullaney, the neo-cultural communications trainer, TEDx speaker, podcast host, public speaking and presentation coach. And so much more that you have heard today on today's episode.
50:55
If I don't let you go, I'm never going to stop because you know how you and I. Yeah, I know. We talk. We can talk. And never stop. But thank you so much for taking your time to be here today and to share all this wisdom and experience with your clients with us so that we can learn more and to be aware of our biases. So thank you. Well, thank you for the opportunity to speak, for the beautiful questions, for where it's gone and the flow. I really enjoyed it. Really appreciate it.
51:25
Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Christine. And before you go, where can we find you? The website where you have all these resources and so much more from you on the internet. You can find me on any social media channel. I'm on LinkedIn, Christine Mullaney. I'm U-L-L-A-N-E-Y.
51:45
And I'm not saying Malani, I'm sorry. Ah yeah, but you're American now. That's how the Americans say it. Many of the Americans. So it's all right, don't worry about it. They'll understand. Yeah, on LinkedIn, my website is languagecouragecoaching.com. So finding the courage to use the language that you have in the moment. Everything is in there. Languagecouragecoaching.com forward slash discover will actually take you to the different links to find me.
52:14
the Connected Communication podcast, Connected Communication on Facebook and Connected underscore communication on Instagram, where if you like a bit of fun and a bit of edutainment, I do reels and a variety of other different things about Hiberno English, English in Ireland, and what it means when your Irish boss says certain things. So.
52:42
Come on over, engage, connect, DM me and chat. I love a good nather as we do in Ireland. Your reels are really fun. I enjoy your Instagram. That was Kristin Mulaney. Did I say that right? Thank you. All the way from Ireland, sharing her wisdom and coaching program with us.
53:08
Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show, please email me and my contact details will be found on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader and becoming the change you want to see.
53:36
To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to bepodcastnetwork.com. Don't forget to subscribe, leave us a rating and a review on Apple and Spotify, and stay tuned for more episodes to come.