Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Andy Goodman, who is part of Goodman Institute. He also works in the storytelling space and he says, numbers numb, jargons jar, and nobody marched on Washington because of a pie chart. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.
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Communication and soft skills are crucial in your career growth and leadership development. Whether you're about to speak in public, make presentations at work, pitch to investors or an entrepreneur looking to showcase their innovation to a wider audience, you'd be glad you joined us. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, which is a centralized hub.
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that helps listeners become their best selves at work and in life. To learn more about the Be Podcast Network, go to BePodcastNetwork.com. And by the end of this episode, please log on to Apple and Spotify. Leave us a rating and a review and what you'd like for us to discuss on this podcast that will be beneficial to you. Let's get communicating!
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Now, one of the things about communication skills, especially when speaking, is the importance of storytelling. My guest today, Soundari Mukherjea, is the CEO of SoundBytes 11, and she's an expert in helping entrepreneurs with storytelling, especially data storytelling.
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and how they can get their message across to potential customers and others that they do business with. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Soundari. Hi, Roberta. I'm delighted to be here chatting with you today. I'm excited that you are here. Thank you so much and welcome. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. You know, when I was about eight or 10 years old, a friend of my dad visited us from
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what felt like very far away part of India at that time. And he came and gave his visiting card to my dad. I quickly had a sneak peek at the visiting card and I saw that he had 10 degrees listed after his name. So after he left, I caught hold of the card and I told my dad that I wanna have 10 degrees after my name. I had no clue what I was gonna be studying or what I wanted to be doing, but I had that vision of what is the identity I wanted for myself.
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And as I moved along, I think that's what's really stayed with me as I work now today in storytelling, that people are not chasing goals. People chase identities. So organizations, when they're talking about their organizational goals and we will be the best company in the world, employees are not interested in being the best company in the world. They want to know what's in it for them. Well, how is it going to change their life?
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And this is something so I really look at organizations when I work today, I tell them that it's my big, hairy, audacious goal to help leaders be more human at work and connect at a human level. Personally speaking, I'm married, one husband, two kids. We are empty nesters now, both of them are studying in the U S and when I'm not working with my clients or when I'm not reading books.
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I'm normally at the pottery wheel doing pottery or I'm trying to work on my tennis skills or the tennis court. Oh no, we're not gonna start a tennis debate here because I'm a huge Tokovic fan, but it's interesting when you talk about how it's the identity which is, I've never heard of it being put like that. How did you come to that realization? When you work with organizations,
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Say, just for example, you're working on the digital transformation space and you're telling as an organizational CEO, you're just going and saying, no, we are going to be digitally transformed. The company is going to look different. The factory is going to look different. We like all these glossiness around us. People are still not clear about how it's going to affect their life. And that's one of the reasons why when we are talking about change or when you're talking about transformation, it doesn't connect. It feels like, you know,
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Somebody is doing a lot of push into getting some ideas in. And you know what happens when somebody pushes, you get a back. Absolutely. And that's what happens because of the whole association with things like digital transformation and words like that, because people are not able to visualize how it is going to affect them as people, what's going to change in my life.
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How is it going to link to my current reality at work? Where is it going to take me? So when you're talking about, just for example, if you're saying that, oh, our factory is gonna be the best factory in the world, the greatest place to work. What I am looking for to know as somebody working there is how is it gonna change my work? How am I be able to do my work for the client better? How is it going to work my life better, my work more efficient?
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So the reframe, when you're communicating some of these is to look at how is the individual impact going to be. And if you communicate something very drastic, that sometimes just doesn't connect. And I always think about Matthew Ogle, he had his own music recommendation engine, and then he joined Spotify. And one of his first few projects when he joined Spotify in 2015 was to create a playlist called Discover Weekly.
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And if you're a Spotify fan, you will know about Discover Weekly, it's a weekly playlist that Spotify keeps recommending. So it's a playlist of about 30 songs that normally the users had never heard of, but they were used, selected based on the users' listening patterns. And the playlist would automatically get updated every Monday morning. So as they met and his team were working on this project, they realized that there was a bug in the system. Some of the songs that the users had heard already
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had also slipped in into that list. So they quickly rushed to fix the bug so that the playlist contained only the new songs. But when they did that, the product's popularity plummeted. Oh. So they actually reintroduced the bug and discovered that users like some sense of familiarity. They don't want something that's totally new. So when you're looking at change work, when you're looking at transformation, the change has to be gradual.
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and it has to be in comfort because they may be looking for change, but they're not looking for a drastic transformation. When you talk about the employees perspective, is that similar to when they say each employee has a personal mission statement and they're trying to figure out if it fits into the bigger organizational picture? That's beautifully said. Absolutely. I mean, we have our value systems,
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There's an organizational value system. And when both align, there's magic. And normally organizations also have all these values on the wall. You don't know what those values translate to in practice, which is why stories which walk those values in action in the organization are very important. If you say that this is the smell of this place, this is how this place works. Oh, we believe in integrity. We believe in honesty.
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Who doesn't, but yeah, it's just a word of the word. Right. How to really convert that into action. What does it look like in action? If you say that just by example, and if there is a dissonance between these two, that's where that misalignment happens for people. You're hearing a talk, but the organization is not walking that talk. Just for example, let's say there's an organization and they say that we are a very diverse organization.
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But when it comes to promotions, there is some discrimination that's happening. Then if you call yourself diverse and then have this discrimination, there is a dissonance, there is a values misalignment. So really it's important to see how these values are translating in your organizational DNA. And how they do business so that you can show that these words, all these beautiful words that make us look good. We literally practice that on a daily basis while doing the practice. Absolutely.
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So how would leaders make sure of that if those things are not aligned? The leaders have the privilege of being a leader. So that also means it comes with the responsibility of having to walk that walk. This is the Lady Jackie Glenn. She used to be the chief diversity officer for Dell EMC, American migrant and immigrant who came into corporate America. And she's written this book called,
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an immigrant girl's journey through corporate America. And when she was the chief diversity officer, she had an opportunity to present to the CEO and his direct reports. So when her manager and she entered the boardroom, all the seats around the table were occupied and all the occupants were Caucasian male. So her manager was also a female and she both were super nervous they were the only women in the room.
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And the only seats available to them were at the back of the room or in the side. And none of the men made any attempt to include them at the table. She came from Jamaica and it was that's when her boldness and all kicked in. So she grabbed a chair and did something that normally she would have never done, but she went, grabbed the chair, went straight next to the CEO, and she used one of her favorite Jamaican expressions, which she says, small up yourself.
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which means create room for my chair. And in the room, everybody burst out laughing. And the CEO embarrassingly shuffled around, moved his chair, created space for her and she pulled the chair and sat down. She did her presentation and internally she was a little bit scared but she applauded herself for being brave and doing that. Her manager still was
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But she said, you know, as the only black woman in the boardroom, I was determined to be around the table. If I invited to the boardroom, where is my seat? So I'm going to just take it. So my intention was not to be abrasive or controversial. I just wanted it to be a learning experience for everybody in the room. And the fact that people laugh created that moment of humor that changed the tension in the room. And they were relaxed.
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they heard what she had to say, they received it well, the presentation went well. So sometimes you need to be that person creating that change but you can do it in a way which is humorous if possible and be in the movement and just grab that opportunity. That is a good one especially with humor because sometimes the other person is not aware.
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that they're not doing or doing something that you feel is impacting you, right? Like you said, if you initiate the change and you come with the humor, you'll realize, wait a minute, they meant no harm. So sometimes the humor is what breaks the ice and you realize, you know what? This is not as bad as I thought it was. Totally, totally. And I think there are different situations and Shara, these examples are very important.
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You know, you can go in and say, we all know diversity, inclusion, belonging, everything is important. It's important to be equitable, not just, you know, create equality in an organization and these are all lines which are there again, they can be in your statement, they can be on the walls. How does it look like and how are you making that change in organizations as you go and drive? And that's where collecting these stories, looking at these stories, converting them into your value stories for the organization.
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and talking and spreading the word. Now, obviously I haven't ever worked with Jackie Glenn. I was not in the boardroom at Dell EMC. I read it in a book, but today we are talking about it. Right? And that's how it spreads. Stories are like migrants. They're taken from one place to another and they travel well. If it was just a statement, the statements don't travel well. People forget.
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And today, like we say, no, we have the ACR problem, which is we have a attention deficit. We are all in a distracted world because people are like, you know, using jargons or big words or technical words. So we have a problem for comprehension. I always think about Andy Goodman, who is part of a Goodman Institute. He also works in the storytelling space and he says numbers, numb jargons jar.
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and nobody marched on Washington because of a pie chart. That's a very good one, but very true. All these jargons, we have a problem about comprehension, about people understanding and communicating, relating to it and being memorable. As leaders, we are struggling to be memorable. You go to a town hall, a leader's bringing out a lot of data and slides and marketing teams spend a lot of time.
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preparing it, millions of dollars goes in investing in that slide deck and nobody remembers a word or a number of what is written. Even for CEOs, how do you really make numbers count? Yeah. How do you communicate in a way that you're talking about the narrative, the insight from the data? The data is important. This is not a when data against bullet points or data points. Data is very important. We are all in business. We need the data to go with it.
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But how can you create an overarching narrative? How can you create the insights from the data so the messaging becomes memorable? And that's our part of the ACR, which is on the retention. How do you ensure that people retain it and take it forward? Like just for example, a CEO communicating a strategy is doing it at 30,000 feet level. How do the departmental managers take it, retain it?
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and how do they pass it on so that everybody is aligned and everybody understands it the same way. That's a very big point. How did you decide that this was gonna be your work, your life's mission to help with storytelling, especially behind data? I'm a finance person. I did my MBA in finance. I worked in a bank. I worked with Unilever and then with ANZ. And it was a very much numbers kind of a place, but-
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As I continue doing that job, I realized domain expertise is very important. You need to have a deep domain knowledge, but what you're doing is actually working with people. It's the humans at the heart of all those connections, your everyday, your conversations, the people that you're working with, how are you engaging with them, how are you connecting with them? How are you communicating with them? And that's going to drive everything. Today, if I were to ask you, Robata.
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Who's that one boss or one person that you remember from your work life? My mentor, my first boss. Why do you remember your mentor? Because he genuinely cared about not only my progress at work and showing me the ropes, but he genuinely cared about me as a person and at the time I was finishing my degree and what I was hoping to achieve for myself. And he genuinely took an interest in that.
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Absolutely, right? Because he was treating you like a person. He interacted with you as a person, not as somebody who was in a department with a particular role. You were not just that. He genuinely cared for you. He was vested in your growth. And he was not just probably not just a mentor, but he was also a sponsor for you in the way he made your life change at work. And these are the people that we remember.
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So while he might've been an amazing domain expert in whatever domain that he was in, we remember people for their humanness, for their kindness and for the way they interacted. And that was the mid 90s. Can you imagine how long ago that was? Totally, totally. I absolutely get it. These are the people who leave an impact. Not because they shared one Excel chart with you, but because they had a chat with you.
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Hmm, that is a very big one. Yeah. When we look at organizational work, leaders, what is the kind of culture that you are creating within your organization? How can you be the one who's building that bridge of connection, not just for your employees, for the people around you, for all your stakeholders? You mentioned data. Nobody watches the Washington because of a pie chart.
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If I have all this data and the numbers and my software, how do I tell the story behind my innovative, brilliant creation? Data is creating context for us. It's building a connection and it's driving an outcome. And stories really help us humanize that content. If you're a leader who's allergic to telling stories and stick only to data.
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We need to move from a data first culture to an audience first point. Because the data is useful by itself, but who's the data for? What is the outcome that you're trying to influence? I remember that in the early 2000s, there's this company called John Deere. D E E R E. They make farm equipment and construction equipment. Okay. It's a big company in the US. So there's a purchase executing there called John Stegner. And he had.
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noticed that the company had very much decentralized procurement systems and the purchasing seemed very inefficient. And he said that really centralizing all these purchases could cause a lot of cost saving and he estimated that cost saving could be 1 billion US dollars over five years. But he knew that he couldn't just walk in and present that data because all divisional VPs were all running decentralized turfs.
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So if he just went and presented the data, all the VPs would be up in arms. They will feel like it's loss of independence. They'll say that it's loss of... A loss of jobs. Loss of jobs. He's not gonna be able to influence action that way. So what he decided to do is he got hold of an intern and he said, let's look at one particular item. And he got the intern to collect samples of all rubberized gloves used in 14 different factories for different processes.
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either for welding, for assembly, etc. Totally they collected 424 different gloves. The same gloves bought from the same vendor in different factories were at different prices. And the price range was from $4 to $17 per item. So what it got the intern to do was got all the gloves, tagged the gloves with the name of the vendor, the price, the factory.
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And he caught hold of all the divisional VPs and brought them to a boardroom. So imagine a boardroom with this huge wooden mahogany table, oval shaped table. And he piled up all the gloves there with all these tags. And he just invited the divisional VPs to the boardroom and they walk into the boardroom, they go around, look at all these things. What? I think $70 for this glove. What? You paid only $4?
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So they were looking and seeing that their job dropped. And then he made a presentation of how much saving was there and what could be done. So there is that whole data that he had collected with all this. If he had just made a sheet of that data and he had emailed and attached it saying, this is how inefficient we are. We need to change this. What would have happened? Those who might have opened the email.
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because some don't open the attachment. They might have thought, oh, numbers, numbers, numbers, and just moved on to the next one. So he created a process where he actually showed instead of telling. And the company then went on to reduce the six vendors to one vendor, the 424 gloves to 24 gloves, and they had a cost saving of more than 50%. And luckily, the intern also got a job offer. Of course.
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Wow. So we look at data, but how do you build the insight around the data? How do you create a visual movement? How do you create that specificity of that example so that people can have their own penny drop moments? So if I were to ask you, you know, Marshall Gans, somebody who again, who has worked a lot in storytelling, he says the story is specific. They evoke a very particular time, place, setting, mood.
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color, sound, texture, taste. And the more you can communicate the specificity, the more powerful your story will be to engage others. So if I were to ask you about this particular experience with John Deere and the gloves, what are some of the visuals that are coming to your mind? I picture the little price tags, you know, when you walk around the table. I'm sure they might have pasted them on each of the items.
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17, 4, and the people's facial expressions, the shock. Wow, what a major difference, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's all these visual elements. When we say stories, we're not talking about fictional accounts. At work, we talk about real life examples, day to day anecdotes that happened. Yesterday, I was walking down the road and this happened. And this is the kind of thing that we are talking
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in the context of business storytelling. It's not theater, it's not drama. It's real life incidents that happen, which are collected together to communicate a point. And how can you really collect these examples? I grew up, like I said, in Chennai, where we always had water shortage. So if there is a lot of rain that was happening, we had these mechanisms called rainwater harvesting, where you would collect the water so it doesn't go off, but you're able to collect it.
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And they created these mechanisms for it over a period of time, because it was really a place where there was shortage of water. So all these examples are happening around every organization every day. How do you collect them somewhere? How do you host them? How do you store them so that you can take them and use them as and when you need to use to make a point? That is so powerful. And when your clients come to you and they say, Soundary, I have this brilliant idea.
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but I'm not good at speaking or storytelling. I'm barely humorous. How do you help them overcome that so that they present the leverage? It is a process, right, Roberta? Like today I wanna look slim and I wanna get my six pack up. I can't just go and look at the gym and look at all the equipment and come back and say, yes, I have my six pack. I'd love for that to happen.
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I wish, I wish I hate the gym. I wish it happens. It's a practice. How do you slowly build that muscle over a period of time? So one of the things that I always recommend is notice, be curious, ask questions. If somebody is saying, you know, last evening I went to this function. What happened there? What was interesting there? Who did you meet? Ask all those follow on questions. Build that curiosity. Be like a journalist.
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collecting all those details and then looking at where can I use this example, in what context. So first is fueling your curiosity, keeping your eyes and ears open, looking at life and looking at world as incidents which are unfolding and how are they affecting you. This is happening to everybody every day. So really being a powerful noticer of stories, powerful listener of stories, powerful collector of stories.
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getting maybe somebody like a story buddy, somebody who's a friend to whom you test it out. You know, Robata, let me tell you this and tell me what do you think after that? So I share an incident and then I ask you, what do you think? What connects with you? Where do you think I can use it? I want to say it this way. And then by your expressions, I'm going to find out whether it's connecting or not, whether it's resonating, whether I'm making the point or not.
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And you're really helping each other. So organizations can create story partners, just like how you'll have an accountability partner for a lot of practices, and then polishing that story and refining it, sharing it. Once you've said it once, it's sort of, oh, it seems to roll off my tongue quite. Okay. What are we sharing that example for? Being very clear and focused in my mind about it. Why am I sharing a story? Why is this story relevant? So what is the point that I want to make keeping that?
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in the center so that you're not going all over the place, but you're anchoring it while you're sharing the story because the same story might connect with each person for a different reason. Like for instance, I shared John Deere's story about how you can use show and tell for data. You might just for example say that sometimes decentralized processes really don't work. We lose sight of our cost savings when we decentralize. And let me tell you why.
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and then share that example. So you can use same example in a variety of contexts. You need to be sure why you're saying it as somebody who's saying it. This is the point that I want to make so that the audience can take that from you. Because again, like I said, it's the audience first orientation. It's not the data, it's not the story. It's always the audience. ABC, audience before connecting.
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So how do you really look at it from that perspective? So, and then slowly building, there are of course, various examples, various courses that people can take, books that you can read. There are lots of books which are like story rich, which have a lot of examples and anecdotes in them, the stories are there everywhere. You pick them, then you try to tell them in your own words. It's trying to remember the significant points, the names.
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We said specificity in stories is important, right? So it's actually remembering those specifics and trying to use them in a context and see how it is, you know, using humor. So Donald Dell was a pioneering American sports marketeer. He talks about negotiating and as a sports marketeer working with very big names. He wrote, wrote a book called Never Make the First Offer.
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So he talks about a time when he was in this tense negotiation with the new corporate owner of the tennis racket brand, Ed. You know that. They had previously struck a deal with one of Dell's star clients, Arthur Ashe. Of course, yes. And one of the things that they had agreed is that he would have a 5% royalty on all sales of the heads racket because he was endorsing it.
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The new owner would come, wanted to scrap that agreement. And Dell and Ash, when actually, obviously they wanted the agreement going. And Dell was in the middle of this negotiation with one very senior executives of that organization. When the door flew open and the company chairman came in and he said, god damn it, this is outrageous. He makes 10 times of what I am making and I am the chairman of this company.
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So the room just goes totally silent. You know, they're wondering how to react to this. The chairman there screaming his head out saying that, you know, how can Arthash be making 10 times as much as I am and all that. And everybody looks at Dell saying, how is he going to respond to this? You know, will he just say, okay, okay, fine. What will happen to the negotiation? Dell turns around and tells him, but Pierre, Arthur has a much better serve than you do.
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Thank you. I'm about to say he wouldn't even do the same thing. And then the tension was broken again. People laughed and went back to the negotiation table. They changed the royalty schedule and all that. Now, Robert, where would you use this example? At work. At work, yes. If you have two professionals, they might work for the same organization, but not doing the exact same job, which means the value they bring.
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is different. You know how we usually debate over the fact that we all wait eight hours a day. So is it the hours or is it what you bring brings the company so much money which we also invoice based on your billable hours. Somebody doing one job their billable hours are different from somebody doing something else. No? No great connection so that could be one context.
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When you're actually having a discussion with somebody who's having this argument about why is somebody's the report that's given for performance management different from mine or something. This could be an example. Right. You also use, you know, in a negotiation, negotiations will always be tough. How can you look at negotiation in a more calmer way? You know, if Dell had lost a stemper to at that time, nothing would have happened. They would have lost the entire deal for FIHA.
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So if you want to tell somebody that negotiations can be very tense, how do you need to keep your cool during negotiations? And let me give you an example of somebody who did that. So that gives somebody an idea. Oh, okay. This is what I can do. So really looking at examples in different contexts and taking it and using it and practicing it. This was a practice.
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And give us one last story on change management, if you have one, because I think it would be very interesting to hear other perspectives on this. Because change, like you said, we find it challenging. We like our comfort zones. We like knowing we've worked this way for 10 years. Is there a story you can share with us when it comes to change management in an organization and how the employees are able to handle that? Let me actually turn it a little bit to talk about, when you look at-
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even change and when you look at solving problems, sometimes we look at what is happening downstream. What is the outcome that's happening now? But we don't go back and look at what is causing the problem. So when we look at what is the source of the problem, we try to tackle manifestation of the problem, rather than tackle the source of the problem, right? There's a sports physician, Dr. Marcus Elliott.
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who was hired by New England Patriots to treat the players who were very prone to hamstring injuries. And Elliot said that the treatment is fine. We are treating something that's already happened. How can you go back and ensure that my players have lesser number of injuries? So I believe that prevention is better than the treatment. And if we have a better training routine, we will then ensure that there are lesser injuries from taking place.
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So he went and observed what was the training that each of the players were doing. Who are the players who are at high risk of getting these injuries? What can be done? And he mapped all that and he worked on preventing the injuries and the number of injuries then dropped drastically. He's quoted in a upstream, the book written by Danny and he says, you can't wait for these bad things to happen. Instead, you look for a signal where there is a risk.
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then you act on it. Because if you just wait for the bad things to happen, you can never put it back the same way as they were before. So when you're looking at things to solve, which is one of the things that you do in change work, what are the problems? How can we look at solving them? What can we change? Good managers believe that their job is to solve problems, but the best managers believe that their job is to prevent the problem from happening in the first place.
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That's wisdom right there, yeah. And also earlier you were talking about digital transformation. So how would you use that example when it comes to digitally changing and transforming with all the AI and everything that's happening lately? Let it be AI, let it be everything. It's the human at the heart of all of this, right? There's a open sustainability technology lab at Michigan Technology University.
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where there's a multi-generation team that's working to produce a low-cost, open-source metal 3D printer. Now, while they are working on something which is really fancy, how do you keep the cost low, how do you create a 3D printer, which is metal, but which is open-source, where everybody can access the information on how to develop that model, they are working with a multi-generational team because that's where the workplace is today.
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Whether you're working in a technology solution, people are the heart of it all. When they were developing this product, they needed the technical ability of a GenX faculty. They wanted the software wizardry that the millennial graduate students were bringing. And they wanted the experience resourcefulness of boomers who are there. So once when a younger team member was desperately trying to order a part, which was missing,
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The older colleague said, no, no, no, I'll build it from the spare parts. And he built it quicker than Amazon could have even delivered it. But by combining these talents and these teams across generations, the team developed that 3d printer in aluminum and steel at much lower cost. Scott Hartley has written a book called The Fussy and the Techie. And he says in that if machines are getting better and they will, humans can only become better versions of themselves.
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I like that. Being a techie is not the antidote to redundancy in today's economy. Being more human is. Words of wisdom from Soundari Mukherjea, the CEO of Soundbytes 11. You have so many powerful stories that are literally practical and we can use. Thank you so much for sharing those with us today. Absolute pleasure. I enjoyed our conversation
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I just want to leave a thought, you know, the power of the stories is that they don't try to persuade people. Stories are just an invitation to understand another perspective. So it's a softer way segue into having a conversation. And in these troubled times where there are so many polarities and so many diverse thoughts, stories are that invitation. Let's have a chat. That's what stories do.
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Let's have a chat for sure. Absolutely right. Especially when you talk about conflict resolution, is that sometimes stories are used in order to bridge that gap to create more understanding when people are on polar opposites of a debate. So thank you so much for that sound rate. And before you go, please let us know where we can find you on the internet. Yes, thank you so much, Roberta. I enjoyed the conversation. My pleasure. I'm going to get in.
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LinkedIn is the best place to find me. I have a low presence on Twitter and I'm wondering whether that's the platform or not, but I'll drop my email ID, but LinkedIn would be a great place to start to find me. LinkedIn for sure. I will put the URL on the show notes when this is released. I really had a wonderful time chatting with you as well. So thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you and catch you sometime. Bye. For sure. Bye.
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Thank you for joining the Speaking and Communicating podcast once again. If you have a guest that you think would be a great fit for the show, please email me and my contact details will be found on the show notes. The Speaking and Communicating podcast is part of the Be Podcast Network, where there are many other podcasts that support you in being a better leader and becoming the change you want to see.
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