Speaking and Communicating Podcast

In sports, you know, you're soft is a negative. You're soft. You're not tough enough. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I'm your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. And by the end of this episode, please log on to iTunes and Spotify. and leave us a rating and a review. Let's get communicating. Now there are so many things that in sports are not taught implicitly, but today my guest, Mitch Lyons, who is the founder of End Abusive Coaching is here to talk to us not only about those traits that we believe that people in sports should be displaying, but also what some of the schools are not teaching. And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi Mitch, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you for being here. Welcome to the show. And tell us a little bit about yourself. First of all, in terms of sports, basketball two to three times a week until I was 65 years old, really. Every game was a blessing. Was a lawyer, practicing lawyer, while my kids were growing up. I thought it was very negative job and I thought it was gonna end up causing such great stress in my life. I gave that up and started advocating for children. I founded the Social Emotional Learning Alliance for Massachusetts, which is now being replicated in 22 states under sel4us.org. And these organizations are advocates, lobbyists, file legislation, providers going to schools. We're just the advocacy arm. It evolved into thinking about how This is a social emotional learning is the educational process that teaches people how to be self aware, how to be socially responsible, how to build relationships with other people, really the skills that make people successful. Positive psychology started by a man named Dr. Martin Seligman has a master's degree in positive psychology at University of Pennsylvania. It's really studying what makes people successful instead of what's wrong with people. So it really changes psychology and how can I help somebody troubled as well? I can proactively teach them skills that will make them knowledgeable, makes them more understanding of what's happening to themselves, how other people are affecting them, how emotion plays a part in almost everything that we do. A brain scientist once said, We perceive ourselves as thinking creatures who feel, but in biology we're actually feeling creatures who think. And that's because the amygdala, the emotion center, is the very first thing that fires up when conversations start or when a situation happens. It's the emotion. And then it goes to the frontal cortex where we set reasoning. So we are emotional people, and those emotions, if you don't keep track of them, can ruin your day, your week, your month, your year, your life. So it's such an important part of being a human. It's funny. We usually accuse institutions of not teaching these skills. And that's when people enter the professional world and they go, oh, if I'm a leader, I'm supposed to not only be good at my engineering job, but all this self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Nobody ever taught me that. Exactly. Think about this, and this is very big in sports. There's an axiom, you know, that everybody believes in. People learn more and faster when they're in a positive, safe and supportive environment. The Massachusetts Education Department actually has a framework called safe and supportive frameworks because they believe in this axiom. So schools should have this aura instead of being hard taskmasters. They should be very supportive and that people feel safe to talk and speak their mind without ridicule or comments. Of course, this is very difficult at an age in schooling where this is a common practice. I think learn from what they hear in their environment, but also the way their own parents communicate with themselves. as they say, charity begins at home. So most of the things you learn at home about life, school is just a supplement. Are we living at an age where we put more of the responsibility towards schools and less at home? Well, there's only so much one can control. It's like why I'm sponsoring legislation called an act to remodel public school athletics through social emotional learning. It adds a written curriculum to sports teams that science based instead of based in the 1880s where we got our institutionalized power imbalance between a coach and a player. Powerful player and a voiceless coach, that's from the 1880s. We need to start thinking about sports psychology and social emotional learning as part of being successful in sports. You see more and more of this examples in professional athletes saying, yeah, mental health gets me through the day. I just can't perform just that way. I have stress, I have anxiety. How do I deal with these things? And that happens in the regular workplace. When we go out into business, that makes you very valuable. If you know how to create positive environments to human resource officers. who are hiring people based upon how well they can create these spaces and be part of that space without the negativity that comes along. We shouldn't deny when we're negative about something, but we can also express it in a way that invites further conversation and communication with another person. Are they equipped to do that though? Yeah, well, I think it's very important that be taught and that's what social emotional learning rises. just in a broad sense, of course. It's about respect, kindness, inclusivity, like the major themes that run through social emotional learning. Empathy, that you can actually imagine yourself in someone else's position before you react to it. These are all very essential. I mean, if you're a salesperson, you need to know how your words are affecting the person that you're pitching to. So this is a huge plus. There's a wonderful website called EI for emotional intelligence, EIConsortium.org, that is the Center for Study of Research for Emotional Intelligence in organizations. And there, there are studies, and they found in studies that people who are asked social emotional learning questions, in an interview, like how well do you work with the team? Give us some examples of how you led a team. What kind of interaction did you have with your members of your team? How did they feel about the way you were going, have gotten criticism, et cetera? Those people, when you ask that, they stay longer in their job, so retention is higher. They are more productive, and when there's an illness, they come back faster. Why? because they want to go into that environment. It's like I hear about coaches are leaving the profession because there's so much negativity, the refs, it's hard to find a ref. And then when I pose, there's silence. And I said, well, if negativity is driving people away, perhaps positivity will draw people in. So why don't we try that instead of continuing the inertia of the status quo. Or this idea that if you are more negative, it pushes the person to perform better. It's almost like a fuel for motivating them to do better, to prove you wrong that, hey, I can score coach. Yeah, it's short term because what everyone needs is intrinsic motivation. The coach yelling at you is not going to be there at the office because those people who yell at the office are usually fired. That's not a good example for kids to see, oh, that motivates me or I needed a tough love. That whole expression sort of is irritated to me because it's just tough. There's no love. It's like, oh, this person needs me to yell at them. Well, I disagree. This person needs to learn how to internally drive themselves to do better. And that takes a consciousness of what we're thinking about. It's called metacognition. Think about what you're thinking about. I just actually had a player say to me, the biggest thing I remember about your coaching is for me to think about what I'm thinking about. And I've used it my whole life and it was in his 40s. That's amazing. It's a great feeling. Of course, you know, when somebody says that to you, but that's really the just, you have to be the self-aware person. It doesn't mean that you don't tell the truth. No, that's not tough. That's explaining. why a coach is feeling away. I don't feel like you're giving the most effort you can. Here's a trick. Imagine, for instance, in running, what you look like when you're running at the highest speed you possibly can. Well, my arms are moving, my legs are churning, I'm really determined in my head. Okay, now do that right now. Don't wait, just do exactly what you just said. I've watched that work with many teams. Being tough doesn't do it. Teaching. makes people tougher by learning how to do it yourself. This is not the army. I was about to ask because if you said, okay, let's not do it the negative way. Do we do what is called toxic positivity, which means Mitch, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can, you know, all those phrases we throw at people thinking it's motivational just because it sounds positive. Yeah, well, the point is that sports psychology has an entire skill called positive self-talk. because it actually does do something while people on LinkedIn are on the attack of just being positive. Well, making positive statements doesn't mean that you deny your emotion. A tragedy has happened, but I can get through it. That's not denying the pain of the tragedy. Right. That's saying what the corrective measure might be. And there's studies about endorphins being released in the body of just talking to yourself that way. saying I'm a good person, restating what you believe. Now, that may not be true. You may be a charitable person. So that's a subjective analysis. Most people who are listening to this podcast are interested in communication and speaking. They're in their talk if they're speaking in public. They have to create this environment, right? That's why a lot of people start off with a joke because It creates a mood for acceptance of what you're going to say next. I once hear the very famous historian, David McCullough, who wrote John Adams. And he goes up to the microphone when he begins and he leans into it really like a rock star, you know, it really pisses me off. Everybody's laughing. People who say the good old days, they weren't good. It's much better now. There's so much that you're going to debunk for us today. That and I would like your thoughts on this. So when I went to your website, soft skills, which we focus on mostly on this podcast, you say soft skills are misogynistic. This is the very first time in my life that I've heard them being described that way. Why do you say that? I've been doing a lot of examining of myself. and language and actively trying to be empathetic, which means I looked from another angle. In sports, you know, you're soft is a negative. You're soft, you're not tough enough. And then the skills that I'm talking about, they're very hard skills, like actually thinking about what you're thinking about. Right. It was a tough thing to do. Like, why am I reacting that way? Asking yourself these questions, hard questions. Soft has a history of being a feminine term and they're soft skills because hard skills are for men. That's the take for a long time. And still today, my feeling is that those are people skills. There's nothing soft about them. You are intentionally thinking about how my words affect other people. That's quote soft skills. I'm sorry, there's nothing soft about it. It's a hard thing to do. So it's a sort of a misnomer. You still have an insurance policy in Massachusetts, easy to read insurance policies and I added easy to read, but hard to understand because it's very much more complex. Yeah. It's easy to understand, but when you get into the specifics, there's details involved, I think we do that in language a lot and how we communicate. We don't really think about it. And that's what we need to examine when we communicate. I think in a way you do sound like you agree with Simon Sinek who says soft skills are human-centered skills. That's correct, absolutely. If you called it that, that'd be great. Soft immediately brings up something for people. Yeah, I refrain from using it. These are people skills in order to get ahead. If you want success in your life, you have to have good people skills, which is good communication and speaking. as this podcast is all about. I mean, there are several instances where schools are not communicating well with either parents or students. I'll give you a good example. If an advertising executive went into a school and saw all that space on the walls, not harping on a message that they want kids to see repeatedly, they would go, why aren't you using this space? in this school. Okay, let's say that 15 different ways and put it all over the school because people walk by and they see it, but we don't use that. Honestly about abuse, we should be communicating on the schools, give a clear path to children. If you have been inappropriately touched, please see Ms. Johnson at room 227 where you will be listened to and respected. It's now telling the people that are abusers that this is not a friendly place for me. Another sign could be if an adult in this school asks you to keep a secret, there's something wrong. Go see Mrs. Johnson, room 227, where you will be listened to and respected. So these are the two things that people in sports, you see the headlines, but the verbal abuse is... really widespread and you can go into any school, high school, and if you know the athlete, well, ask them, who is the coach in this school that you don't want to play for? There you have your answer. And that's who it is. And it's not because, oh, they don't know the game well enough. That could happen. I mean, anecdotally, that, you know, they're terrible game time coach, but mostly it's about tone, negative. And he creates that toxic culture that we see. Massachusetts we had a football team that would play calling was done with Holocaust terms. Break on Auschwitz. You can read about it. There's all kinds of negative cultures, hazing of freshmen like they normalized it, which is what happens in coaching when there's no written guide for coaches. Which is my next question. Who coaches a coach to become a coach? Or is it based on, oh, you excelled in this sport and that immediately qualifies you. So they don't look at the people's skills. Well, everyone in most states has to take coaching training courses in order to become a coach. And we're talking about generally teachers who also have pedagogy training. So they're already a step ahead of those about 50% are not their parents or. They're somebody who knows the sport, as you said. So most of them to qualify must take these courses. But 30 years later, or even if you have to go back again, when things are verbal, they don't stick. Right. When we have a guide, a written curriculum for sports teams that's up to date, that teaches the skills in, for instance, sports psychology and social emotional learning. Then that's something to evaluate coaches on. How well did he model creating positive spaces? How well did he actually teach it? And when I say explicitly, it's like the first day. So what we're gonna be learning here on this team is how to create positive, safe, supportive environment. A team climate where we can all thrive, where we don't yell at people who make mistakes, we actually correct it. in a really calm professional way. So yelling is not the only method for correcting. Well, we both know that's true. You're asking me to state the obvious. It's anti-science. And so by allowing these teams to have coaches that everyone knows yells at kids, it's really allowing the teaching of anti-science. My daughter, another reason that I got into this is that She was emotionally abused on her basketball team, as well as the whole team, because when things weren't going well, the coach would start screaming at them about how they're a disgrace to the school. They shouldn't be allowed to wear- How old was she at the time? High school. That's where we had the talk about nobody stays in an abusive relationship. That's a rule. Either you leave or they leave. Those are the only two options. This coach stayed there for 16 years doing it confident in her ability to scream at children that she would do it in front of parents. I'm about to ask when a coach is like that, do the children not tell their parents or they think this is normal if we are not performing and winning games or do parents know what the next steps are if the child wants to continue to play? Yeah, but my point is that if you have an abusive coach, you shouldn't be on that. You'll have to leave the team to stay in it. reaffirms everything that you think is bad about yourself. That's terrible for self-confidence. And that's the first thing to go with a yelling coach is a player losing confidence in basketball. There's a short arm in the ball. It's like you can't even move your arm all the way forward because you're so stricken with worry and fear and anxiety and stress that your muscles don't react the way they normally do. This is a... physical mind-body connection that's all in everything really, but that's what happens. Like you're scared to shoot because you're scared of what the result will be. Not the missing but the reaction of the people who yell and scream. Which then is a barrier to your performance. Yes, which affects your performance. That's why so many athletes now at the professional level have sports psychologists on their teams. to talk with people. Ted Losso, famous show. Oh, yeah. My brother loves that show. An FCL guy. Chase him. He does teach it. You know, a lot of coaches who are hearing you right now, we're coaching their youth leagues or whatever. They're saying, well, I don't do that. I don't yell at kids or anything. I have a great time. I love kids. I love this sport. I enjoy myself tremendously. We have fun out there. Great. And I think that is the vast majority of coaches. That's most people. I would hope so, especially a lot of kids play so many sports at a young age. So hopefully coaches are a lot more than how you just explained. I've seen it. I can't even begin to tell you how many games I've either coached or been at. And like a lot of people, you see all kinds of coaching out there. What, if you are a great coach, you could be even greater if you actually told kids what you were doing. And I discovered this while I was having a horrible day being a lawyer. I went. to practice with the team I was coaching. And before I went in, I sat there and just tried to think about all the great things that is about to happen. I'm going to be with kids that I really, really love. They're so much fun and coaching a sport that I dedicated to and know a lot about. So I walked in and I'm like totally immersed right away in this good feeling. I mean, I try to make the kids laugh all the time, you know. It's suddenly dawned on me that I wasn't telling them what I did. The next time I started, how many people have had a bad day? Did people raise their hands? Of course, a lot of them, I say, there's something you can do about it because don't you think it puts you in a negative mood right now? And they're not. Yeah, it does. So let's just think about how much we love playing, how much we love this sport. Now, some people find thought replacement is not a good theory. Like they say, toxic positivity. Uh, yes, there could be a denial of your own emotions and that becomes toxic because you're ignoring your emotions. That's not the goal. Right. But that's all lumped together. There's nothing wrong with being positive. It is a good thing as positive self-talk has proven. However, it doesn't mean contrary to that, but therefore you must deny all emotion. That's not its intent at all. That is not the intention, as you said. So I'd like to ask you, what is the one thing to end abusive coaching that you think parents can do to get involved? Yeah, well, that's a good point. So what I've done is to approach the coach. And many times, that's greeted with hostility for multiple reasons. Sometimes it's because they don't really know the sport and they yell, so they have nothing else to say. They don't know how to correct anything. That's one reason I've seen that many times. Then after you get nothing there, there's a league. Let's assume it's a youth league. There's an administrator. We don't like this. Then there's the advocacy. Who else doesn't like this? Who else doesn't want their child to be yelled at just because they're playing a sport and wants to see those coaches depart and not be part of this youth program? Find allies. first step in advocacy, right? Find other people who agree with you. Then form a plan with those people on how to address this. It can be subtle or it can be bringing signs, stop yelling at our kids to the games. And so it's addressed because of the inertia of status quo is that we must retain the status quo. It's why I was banned in 2005 from ever appearing at a Massachusetts secondary school athletic directors association meeting because quote, they neither endorse nor support my ideas. They want the coach to be able to just do as they want. They're steadfast in this and they have been since 2005 when I said to them and I spoke in front of the National Federation of High Schools, that's group of state associate of all 50 states. it was not well received because it makes athletic directors actually evaluate coaches based on a written document. What's wrong with that? That's what I asked. The answer is it's new. Nobody's ever put any kind of writing on a sports teams. Part of that is from classism, where people thought people who work with their hands are dumb compared to people who work behind the desk. And that's from the 1880s again, probably previous to that too, where people thought that. When I went to school there, and I think it's still going on, they call athletes the dumb jock. Oh, that's not good. Well, that's a common phrase, because they have never caught up with science, which shows what people should be learning as a skill in order to perform better. And I brought this up to the sports psychology, the national certification group. called ASP, to get the advancement of applied sports psychology. I brought up that they have never offered a curriculum using sports psychology in high schools. Never. They've never offered it. That's not on any site anywhere. There's no group saying, why aren't we teaching this? And because they're really not good business people because they think that expanding the market that people will come less to them. as opposed to that more people will come because they'll be so interested. Psychology 101 is like a very, very popular course in freshmen because they all wondering why am I so screwed up? And we all want to understand human behavior, of course. Yes. Mitch Lyons, founder of end abusive coaching. Thank you so much for being on our show today for sharing your experience, your wisdom, and the advocacy work that you do. Well, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Enjoyed the conversation immensely. I really did as well. It's truly my pleasure. And before you go, would you like to share with us where on social media or the internet we can find you? I've been trying to reach out to student athletes to organize, and that would be end abusive coaching on Tik Tok. And I'm just hiring a social media person to go out. So a lot of them, because of my total lack of knowledge. Don't worry, we all need help in that regard. I told my son that I'm roadkill on the information highway and he readily agreed. He said nobody's been used the term information highway in 25 years. So end abusive coaching is a TikTok account. Yes. And on the web it's dot org and there's a place to join. mailing lists because together like good advocates we're trying to find allies. Also for people who have seen or done it there's an anonymous tell your story ability and there's some of them on there now so I encourage people this has happened to a tremendous amount of people on the legislation which asks the department of education to present guidelines for schools if they so choose. to bring their athletic program into the 21st century, guidelines for implementing such a curriculum on sports teams. That's the purpose. So I call up to lobby, I speak to chiefs of staff, policy directors. And the first question is, have you ever played high school sports? So many say yes. And I say, you know what this bill is about? And it's usually, oh yes, I definitely know. It's happened to a lot of people. body shaving and the negativity. Again, thank you so much for the time. Truly my pleasure. Thank you for being here. Mitch Lyons, founder of End Abusive Coaching. You can find him on endabusivecoaching.org on the internet if you want to find out how you can help in the advocacy. Thank you so much and stay tuned for more episodes to come.