Speaking and Communicating Podcast

And remember again that no matter what your ego or your survival mechanisms or your fear say, you're actually more powerful with those people working as leaders with you. Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I'm your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. And by the end of this episode, please log on to iTunes and Spotify and leave us a rating and a review. Let's get communicating! My guest today is the author of This is Coaching. He is an executive leadership coach and TEDx speaker who focuses on leaders and how they can be more productive through being mindful and all the other things that come with that. And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi, Matt. Hi, Roberta. It's great to be with you today. Welcome. Thank you for being with us today. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah. Well, you thankfully, thank you. You named beautifully a highlight of the business stuff that I work on. So as a coach, I work with the crazy leaders who think that they can make impossible things happen in the world. They're like me. I'm always trying to make impossible things happen. I also work with coaches to support them and being better coaches. On the personal side, I grew up just outside Detroit in Michigan. Midwestern guy, grew up going up north, hanging out in the lake, playing baseball, doing all that stuff. And since 2020, I've lived just outside Denver and Colorado with my fiancee. We're getting married in June. Congratulations. I'm really excited about that. Thank you. Now we're about to finish ski season right now and get back into hiking season. So I'm really excited for that. Did you have a corporate career before you got started in coaching? Yeah, so I graduated in college in 2007. Then started my career right at the start of the financial crisis. It was a really interesting time to start my career. I was lucky enough to land a job at the University of Michigan, which is pretty insulated from a lot of the economic impact. I was a marketer in my early days. I went into marketing because I had always been really interested in why people do what they do and sort of understood the behaviors of people. And right at that time was when social media was becoming really popular and people were asking the question, is Facebook going to be around again? In fact, the first six months of my career, Twitter didn't even exist. And so it was this really fascinating time to be in the world online and seeing like, what's really going to happen. So I spent between six and eight years working in the marketing side, both at university in Michigan, but also at a couple of different agencies. And that was when I really got to experience the different ways that leaders are leading today, the different ways that organizational cultures exist and started to see. stuff that I didn't really like that inspired me to start thinking about if I was going to do something different for my career, what might that be? And that started me down the path of coaching. Like how can I get into the other person's perspective to really understand them? And that's really useful for me as a coach. And I was spending so much time trying to get people to spend more time on their phones or on their devices, but then leaving and going to dinner with friends and saying, hey, like get off your phone and let's talk. Let's be humans together, please. I was definitely in a massive conflict and that had me really start to look at what I was doing with my life. That is interesting because on your tech talk, you actually do talk about the concerns you have regarding how much time we spend on the screen. Would you like to share more of that now that you did a 180? So we have some of the smartest people in the world, right? People who understand human behavior way better than me, PhDs, creatives who really get it, right? And there's a lot of science about how we interact. They're using all of those tools to keep us on our devices as long as possible. because they're measured by number of hours we spend, right? Or we talk about Netflix, right? The amount of number of hours that we binge a show or how quickly people binge a show actually determines whether it has signed on for a second season or not. So the metrics are often in how can we condense human attention into a very short span or try to get it as long as possible. And so what that means is that we have literally millions and billions of dollars conspiring to keep us addicted to these devices. They're playing on our basic human biology. I just not to say any of that is evil. It just is, that's sort of the state of the world. And the way that I think about it is, if we can simply acknowledge that technology is not gonna slow down. Chat GPT-4 is here, it is changing the way that we think and communicate. That's not gonna go away. The question I have is how do we lead in the midst of that? How do we remain human in the midst of that? How do we remain creative in the midst of that? And how do we take care of ourselves? as biological beings in the midst of that. So that is really what I think about in a long-term sort of capacity these days. It's definitely not going away. And some of the things are good. Like I'm talking to you, you're in Denver, I'm in Chicago. We're thankful for that, but how do we have this self-control? Do you have that luxury, especially if you work? Since the pandemic, a lot of people went hybrid. It is our personal responsibility. So let's first to accept that. Basically the system is designed to suck us in. If we just acknowledge that that's how it is, then we can start to have choice. And I'll share that, like I'm not immune to this. So my book launched, especially on the day of launch, I was on my computer at 8 a.m., which was way earlier than usual these days. And I was on it the whole time, checking every single social network, checking Slack, checking email on a second by second basis, both on my phone and my computer. And I felt myself getting pulled back into that. I downloaded Facebook on my phone for the first time in a year. so that I could participate around the launch and support people. And I could feel myself getting sucked in. And so I really get it. First of all, I really get when folks who like, I don't really have a choice, I don't know how to move out of it. This is where I look. And this is where I look as a coach with my clients. This is where I look personally is, it's thinking about what do I really want to be committed to as a human being? If my health is really important to me, if for me being outside is, I know really good for my health, if that's really important, then how do I wanna make decisions? And if I'm an organizational leader, then I can think about what type of culture do I really want to have. And knowing that I can design a culture that is good for other people and profitable, do I want to do that? That just simply requires me to make different choices compared to if I don't actually care about people's technological health. So really, I think it's a time to look inward and ask ourselves what really actually matters to me. And am I willing to make decisions based on that? It sounds like an exercise in self-awareness. which in your TikTok you mentioned that self-awareness questions are not on the personality test. Would you like to take us through that? Yeah, well in my model for mindful leadership, self-awareness is number one, is the number one thing. Often we think that self-awareness is like a place we can get to, right? Like I can score 100% in self-awareness and now I have it crossed off and I'm great. I don't think that's how it works because everything in life is always The willingness to be in an inquiry to ourselves about what's happening for me in this moment. What are my thoughts, judgments, feelings, emotions, et cetera? What are my values? What is my purpose? To be willing to ask these questions that, A, don't necessarily always have a really simple answer or a really easy answer. It sometimes is very often very nuanced. There might be conflicts in that answer. I might value productivity. I might value connection. And I might also value being alone. So all it does is point us toward some inquiries around how do I start to make decisions knowing that these things are true for me, at least right now in this moment. Often the work that I do as clients and you ask me, do I talk about mindfulness in my work? I really don't these days, even though all of this is an act of mindfulness, just willing to be with ourselves in that inquiry. Why don't you mention mindfulness so much? Cause it sounded to me like that is a big part of your work. What do you think scares people, especially with meditation today, suddenly think, oh my goodness, it's turning me into a Buddhist. I love that question too. I started Golden Bristle when I was in Tennessee in Nashville, right? And sort of the Bible belt of the United States. And so I've always been really intentional about my speaking about it, right? It can be related to a particular religion or a particular spiritual belief. And it doesn't have to be. First of all, just mindfulness as a concept is again, being in this inquiry of what's happening for me in this present moment was happening around me in this present moment. That's it. And it's a practice. It's like. getting up and doing bicep curls at the gym on a regular basis, that's it, it's a practice. Specifically the word mindfulness, because I don't know that everyone has that understanding of it, it's a pretty loaded term. And I'll share that even meditation for me, I decided to start Golden Bristle without ever having meditated, even though I'd been deeply interested in sort of Eastern philosophy and religion my whole life. And that's because I thought meditation was something that I had to do, or that was hard, or there was a right way to do it. So I had a very like Western idea of how to do it. And I think that's true for a lot of people, especially in the business world. People are saying, well, I'm so busy. How am I going to find 10 minutes to sit quiet? I literally can't do that. That's also the point. But I've stopped talking about it because I'm not actually interested in having that conversation about trying to convince people that meditation is the thing. Instead, what I direct them to is what has you curious about mindfulness? What is your experience when you sit down for five? What is the impact of that experience on your life? So why is that really beneficial, for example, if your mind keeps running, why is that happening? And what does that limit in your life if your mind keeps running? What might happen if you had the ability to start to move through that so that you could have more stillness? If more stillness was available to you, if more feeling in your body was available to you, if more connection with other people is available, what might happen for you? What things might be available in your life on the other side? So that's where I'm more interested in the conversation these days. Do you think some people are afraid to be still? Yeah, I'm afraid to be still. So I know that my clients are and for good reason. Right. Like, so my job as a coach is to understand completely someone else's perspective, to make everything they're doing completely perfect. That's the only way that we can actually change is if we can actually accept our current situation. And so as a coach, if I can see that, I can support my clients in also having that realization. So there are a whole lot of reasons if someone is afraid to be still, that it makes sense for them to be afraid to be still. They've probably been taught that productivity is the way to feeling good about themselves. They've been taught that they need to keep moving. It's probably scary for them on some level to be still because maybe... thoughts that come up are not pleasant thoughts. And they actually don't understand that at some point, once they see those thoughts, they can do something with them, right? For any number of reasons is really scary. And I totally get that. You know, when we had, I don't know if you had this, like people have nightmares where a monster is chasing them. And then- I have a phobia for snakes. So if I have a nightmare, usually I've seen a snake and then I wake up immediately. Yeah, I'm scared of snakes. So scared. Yeah. My hometown had them, that's why. Oh, so you probably grew up scared, right? So your body has inherited that fear. Huh? I never made the connection actually. Yeah. So that fear has carried me since. Wow. Yeah, that makes total sense. Actually, this is really perfect because that's often what happens. So if we're using this idea of sitting still, often at some point, when someone was young, their body created this nervous system response to being still, where it was actually really scary to do that. And so. What we do is we internalize a fear of even looking at it. You just looked at it, right? So you're like, oh, that is a thing. And often once we look at it and bring it to light, we can shift it, but it takes a tremendous amount of courage to actually look at it in a moment for most of the time. Scary, it really is. Just like it's scary for people to be still, that means for the childhood, that's still triggering. Yeah, and that's totally normal. This is what happens for most people. And I could see it in your bodies and looking, right? Like... there's a felt response and often many of us have that. And it isn't just sitting still, it is many times for the things we really want in life. And so I just really respect anyone who's willing to transform because it takes so much courage to do that. And what I love about fear is that one, it operates really well in obscurity. It's like generalized fear, like mist. Like if it can stay cloudy and misty, we can hold onto it more. And then secondly, it uses other emotions to block it. So it uses shame. We were like, I must not be as strong or as powerful or as courageous as other people. And so we get stuck in the shame and we don't actually see that the fear is the thing that's driving the show. Wow. So anyway, we were talking about night barriers before you get this rooted with my phobia. No, I think you gave us a perfect example. So thanks for being willing to do it. Appreciate that. Thank you for your kind words, Matt. In your tech talk, you talk about you've met some. really good leaders in your lifetime and some horrible ones. How did you start to notice and when did you start to notice these different types of leadership styles? It was really apparent to me at my first job at the university of Michigan, the U of M business school where I worked has some really amazing professors who are thought leaders in the world of human resources, HR and leadership. So I got to see like, oh, this is what really high power leadership looks like. And that awareness had me contrasted with both my own bosses, but then later on when I worked in the agencies with my clients and their bosses, and I got to see how toxic cultures operate from top to bottom when I could see that the actions of leadership influenced how my clients treated me. And then that influenced how I treated other people and I could see how it rolled downhill. But arguably the first experience I had of what leadership and culture and organizational health looked like was very early from my mom. She worked in healthcare my entire life and healthcare, I believe at least has notoriously poor leadership on a lot of levels. A lot of doctors who haven't been trained in leadership skills are led to believe that they can't make any mistakes because that's what a doctor has to believe in order to be able to have people's lives in their hands. Like again, that makes sense. But what that leads to is a lack of willingness to say I made a mistake. And that leads to toxic behaviors where no one is afraid. No one is willing to admit that they made a mistake. Everyone blames everyone else. And there's actually little accountability within the organization. And I saw that over and over in places, in my own words. You know, we watch a lot of ER style, Grey's Anatomy style TV shows. Yes, we hold doctors of Hastings, they save lives. But there's always this condescending tone they have towards nurses. Even if the nurse knows more about the patient person, the doctor will come with their... medical school train vocabulary and they're like, no, I'm sorry, doctor. No, no, no. Here's what happened here. I'm the doctor. Yeah. I love the, you have the experience too, right? I think it's pretty universal and you can just imagine the ripple effect that has across a hospital. My fiance is a physician assistant and so I continue to be in the healthcare world. We have a lot of conversations about it. And so when you noticed your mom, what she was going through, Did you talk about it at home or is it this idea that as kids usually think our parents are superheroes? Yeah. So when you notice those horrible leaders where she worked and how they treated her, did you feel like this is how work is? And one day I'll be a grownup and this is what I'm going to go through. I think I got all of that. So I still think my mom is insanely powerful and capable of doing a lot of stuff, right? She's worked away into management and leadership for many years without a college degree, now she has an associate's degree. while she, after she was already a single mom. Really incredible. I see her as being able to change the world. And I started working with her in some summers and weekends when I was in high school. I had a firsthand experience of the different doctors. I've had this sort of gentle wisdom, even at a young age, where I can pick up what's happening in conversations and in environments, even if I didn't have the language for it when I was younger. And so even then I could see, oh yeah, this doctor I can tell respects people. He speaks to them in this particular way. way, he might have this sort of habit or pattern where his ego gets in the way. This doctor over here is rude and disrespectful. And I can see how that interaction changes things. All of that was, again, even if I'd have a language that was really apparent to me. And so by the time I was in college and studying psychology and sociology, my mom and I were having quite in-depth conversations about leadership styles and about organizations and about how people showed up to work and what their motivations were. I mean, that was sort of how we bonded by the time I was 1920. When did you start your business? So I started Golden Bristle in 2015. It was a side hustle for about a year and a half. So I was doing lunch and learners while working full time at an agency. And then in 2016, I quit my job to do marketing consulting on the side while growing the organizational and coaching side of Golden Bristle. And I still did marketing consulting work for about three years. So 2020, I think was the last year that I got an official client paycheck for that marketing consulting work. So for about four years, I was building my coaching business while doing consulting, breaking down or kind of decreasing the consulting work. I wonder if you've noticed prior to 2020, people's priorities shifting when COVID happened. What I noticed a lot of during COVID and at that time I was really focused on venture-backed founders, venture capital investors, folks in the startup world, is that there was a lot of fear and uncertainty during COVID, right? It was sort of like, is money ever gonna be available for funding, are our customers all going away because they don't have any money because they're gonna all lose their jobs? There was a lot of that. And what I noticed is that there are a lot of leaders who care tremendously about their people and we're doing a really poor job of taking care of themselves or getting support for themselves. So we would host some free events where we would say, hey, if you're a founder or you're an investor and you're taking care of your founders, just show up and talk about what's going on. That became a really helpful point for me, both in understanding people, but also seeing where leadership focuses were. And I'll say that since then, at least in that world, we had a tremendous influx of capital. A lot of money was flowing. People weren't worried, at least until the last couple of months, about money anymore. So like the culture started to change from, oh, let's really take care of each other to let's make as much money as possible. And it was really fascinating to also watch that. And again, like this, often these feel like their intention, right? Which is like, let's scale and make a bunch of money versus let's really take care of our people and think about the human side. I don't think they have to be in conflict, but often I find that leaders think they do. No, and I always emphasize that as soon as we talk about take care of people, emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills, We always say, disclaimer, businesses are still there to make money, but like you said, not at the expense of taking care of people. Yeah. Cause if they break down, then who's going to do the work for you? Right. I mean, it's like very clear. So when you wrote the book, this is coaching. What are some of the main things that you're focused on? The book introduces my very simple, but deeply nuanced framework on what coaching is, which I also think is the same process as growth and transformation as a human. the GPS navigation system as an analogy. And so when we open up the GPS app on our phone, the first thing it asks, if we ask for directions, is where do you want to go? We give it a very specific address. It locates us very specifically where we are right now. And only after it has those two things, does it start to give us play-by-play directions. And I think coaching is the same thing. It's just our clients are doing the courageous work of getting clear on what it is they want in life. They're doing the courageous work of getting clear on where they are right now, which sometimes as we already established can include looking at our fear when we don't really want to. And then once those two things are in focus, we just ask, okay, what's next? What's the step toward the thing that you want given where you are? Do you have these golden clients who just know what they want? Because apparently a lot of people don't. You're right. Sometimes it is very clear. folks. So personally, as a coach and as a human, I look at the whole wholeness of a person's life. So that means that I look at their business, that might be the financial aspect, it might be the emotional aspect, it might be the impact they're making. We look at their life, we look at their relationships, we look at their health. I find that often people are clear in one direction or one aspect of life, and they're not that clear in the other aspects. And so often our work is putting more curiosity on the other aspects and noticing where they also have this either or idea. We talked about in business, it's either I make money or I take care of my people. We often have the same thing in our lives. Either I focus on my purpose in my business or I have amazing relationships or I get to sleep. And I love to challenge that idea as a coach and say, well, what if you could have all of it? How might you do that? And who might you have to be? And so what that then requires is we're constantly looking at what do I actually want? I think that's it. Just as self-awareness is never done, asking ourselves what we want is never ever done. Right. I want more money and more success because I think what people get stuck on is just say those things but they even in their minds don't know what that really looks like. And also do you think social pressures could be the reason we're not very clear because you think you're supposed to be something or you're supposed to have a life that is a certain way or that is like everybody else's who was considered successful. Oh yeah. And on the idea of like getting clear, I think about it as like, if I put my GPS, I want to go to Illinois, I'm going to get much worse directions than if I put in your address. That's why it's so important. And yeah, I think all of what you pointed out, this idea of social pressure, working hard to get clarity, this probably the fear of like, do I actually know what I want? All of that just comes with the territory. That is to say that it's worth being in the practice of asking ourselves, knowing that that's going to show up. So people often say, well, What if I asked for the wrong thing? And I said, well, great, at least you know now you don't want that and be in the practice center. So yeah, I think social pressure is going to show up. That's part of it. And this is also why I love the idea of we wanna not only be clear on what we want or where we want to go, we also need to be clear on where we are because if I have the affirmation of I'm successful and immediately I have a thought that says, no, you're not. Mm-hmm. and I just try to blast through it, I'm actually not allowing myself to be clear on where I am, which is, oh, I want to feel like I'm successful. And right now I have a story that I believe that I'm not willing to look at most of the time that says that I'm not. And so once we start to, again, similar to you and snakes, once we start to look at that just current honest reality for us, we can move it. We can do something with it. But the more we try to bury it and say that should not be here, We have less room to move it. It's sort of like a immovable rock in our life. Usually a lot of my discussions when I'm invited to speak with other audiences, I always say, go back to the inner dialogue because what the secret movie and affirmations, people say, this thing doesn't work. It's because it's like you're putting band-aid on a very deep scar. If you haven't removed that rock you're talking about and you just stop it with affirmation. that stuff hasn't been cleaned up yet, that story, that rock, is still there. So that's the step I feel like that they missed. Yeah, I think it's a real shame because I am a firm believer in the law of attraction, so all the things that come with it. When we allow ourselves to feel it and we listen to the full idea of the principles, right? Rather than, like you said, like blasting affirmations or putting on the band-aid. And what I've also found is there's an idea of like, oh, once I heal that wound, then my life is gonna be great. And so when another obstacle or we encounter another wound, we think, oh, this is wrong. And again, I don't think that is actually how it works, right? If we're continuing to grow, we're gonna find more of those. And that's actually expected. And to me, is actually a good thing. I know it's challenging in the moment, it's scary and it hurts. But what it tells me is that, oh, this person's growing because we've encountered a new place for them to heal. Oh. So what about mindfulness do you think people can use during situations like that? So there is an opportunity when we're feeling feelings or have thoughts to take a breath. It's helpful physiologically to take a breath. It just relaxes us. If we even don't have that capacity, just to ask ourselves what's really happening for me right now. In my book, I established an acronym that I hadn't used, but I use now called HALA, which is really is getting honest. accepting, loving, and accurate about our current situation, state, or moment. So honest is what's really going on. Accepting is allowing it to be. Loving is really giving ourselves compassion for that moment. It's perfect. It's okay whatever we're feeling. And then when we have those, we can be really accurate, which means that we can locate ourselves in that moment so that we can move. And the more that we're able to do that, the more that we're able to say, feel that physiological response. when we're afraid or hear, notice that thought, the more we can spot it in the future. And so in many ways, doing the reps right now, asking that question right now, allows us our future self to be really good at spotting it even earlier. So it's like we're like giving a gift to our future self so that they can have movement. Even if right now it feels intractable in a few days, in a few months, in a few years, it's not even gonna be a thought anymore. accepting, loving, and accurate. Why do we struggle with the loving part to be loving of ourselves when we make a mistake? But if you made a mistake, I'm the kindest person you'll ever hear from. Yeah, I have a very spiritual answer and that is that's what it means to be a human, which is that we chose this human life to be in that practice. Like that is, I think, arguably the primary challenge of our human life. there's plenty of like societal evidence if we wanna like look at the science or psychology of it, which is that many of us are taught in our society that we're only worthy, that we only deserve love, that we only deserve respect if we win, where if we're successful or if we achieve things, right? That's our school system is based, that's our workplace is based. Unfortunately for many people, that's how their home life was based when they were growing up. So we're conditioned to that. It seems so universal, but also it just seems like a very... human spiritual quest though. Have you in your experience seen leaders, what kind of transformations have they experienced when they, even though you don't introduce it as mindfulness, if they practice some of the tools that you give them during your coaching sessions? So a lot of leaders, if the people who end up in leadership positions get there for two reasons, one they're very smart or two they're very powerful. Those are strategies that become automatic. There's no conscious thought that happens. So I'm going to say the right answer, or I'm going to be very powerful. I'm going to be very insistent. And that produces a tremendous amount of success. And at some point it stops working, especially if their business grows beyond them or the impact that they want to make is bigger than them and through mindfulness, through this ability, as I talked about, to take a breath and asking what's happening for me, a couple of new behaviors can emerge just specific. I'll talk specifically related to these two. One for the person who's very smart. they can shut the heck up instead of having to have to say the last word. And so what that allows for is that people can have more confidence in speaking their minds, new ideas can come forward, the entire culture can shift because people feel like they're actually gonna be heard and respected. And what happens is there are more powerful ideas coming out of the organization. The second is, so someone who's very powerful, they can also notice when they're being too pushy, relax and pull back. And often it's a very similar positive impact, which is that their people then step in to fill that gap and express their own power. And so instead of one person being uber powerful, you know, have five, 10, 20, 30 people all expressing their power. And when that happens, so much more cool stuff can happen. No matter how at the top you are, the ladder doesn't mean you know everything. Yeah, for sure. And I got to experience this week with my book launch is that I may have mentioned I have a community of more than 100 people who have who have been in support and read the book early. The reality is I can't buy that many copies of the book myself. Like I just, and I can't leave that many reviews of the book myself. So I, I need those people in, in such a way that they also feel like they're leaders. Like they're enrolled in why what we're doing is important. And if I'm always just talking at them, they don't have the opportunity to step into their own leadership around that. Matt, give us one piece of wisdom for individuals when it comes to mindfulness. I'm going to pause. like slow down to let myself think about that and hear that. There is a point during practice when we get really curious with ourselves and we have the courage to look at our feelings, at our body sensations, at our thoughts. When we have this moment that is quiet and when we realize that everything is okay. And for me, those moments are fleeting, they're few and far in between. And when I have them... I feel in touch with my wisdom. I feel in touch with the wisdom of the universe. I feel in touch with my power and creativity in a way that is only possible if I let that all be okay. And so the piece of wisdom I have for everyone is that is available to you. It might be scary to get to there. You might want to grasp onto it when you do find it, and that's okay. And it's always there. And for leaders. Same thing. So when I gave this example of not being so smart, not being so powerful, so that others can step into leadership. My guess is many leaders started their business with that as one of their goals. Having other people do amazing work and be leaders themselves. And you may have forgotten about it. Check in, if that was one of the things you started your business for, remember that. And remember again that no matter what your ego or your survival mechanisms or your fear say, you're actually more powerful with those people working as leaders with you. instead of you trying to do it all yourself. Words of wisdom from Matt Thelman, the author of This is Coaching, executive leadership coach and TEDx speaker. Matt, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for being with us and sharing your insights today. Thank you, it's been so fun. I so appreciate you. I had fun as well. It's my pleasure. And before you go, where can we find you on the internet if we want to continue getting in touch with you? Yes, you can find me on my website, which is goldenbristle.com. If you go to the website and scroll to the bottom and click the little boar, you'll see what the name Golden Bristle means. Oh, so there's a little fun little Easter egg on the site. Easter egg hunt. Very perfect for the season. goldenbristle.com Matt Thieleman. Thank you very much. Thanks. 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