Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. And by the end of this episode, please remember to subscribe, give a rating and a review. Now with my engineering background, which is the reason I started this podcast and the importance. of communication skills and how clearingly obvious that was for me. My guest today, Zach White, who is a lifestyle engineer, he's actually a qualified professional engineer. He's a lifestyle engineer, CEO and founder of Oasis of Courage, and is the host of the Happy Engineer podcast. Is here to talk to us today about how crucial. communication skills are especially in the engineering and leadership sectors based on his professional experience as well. And before I go any further, please help me welcome him to the show. Hi, Zach. Roberta, what a pleasure to be here. Thanks for that warm introduction and I'm pumped for our chat today. Thank you for being here and for taking your time to be with us. And as I said, when I saw your profile, I feel like... This is everything we always talk about. It was a match made in digital heaven, Roberta. I can't wait. I really am excited. I love what you're doing and everything the show brings. It's so important. So let's do this. I appreciate that. Thank you. Now, before we get into the meaty part, let's talk about you. Just tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, Roberta, before we hit record, you... We're so kind to frame that question in the context of me as a human separate from my business first. And maybe I'll share that side here as well because we all have our identity wrapped around our profession or our business at times and I understand that it's good. But Zach White is more than just a coach and CEO. So one of the things I'll share, I'm known as the dancing nerd by some of my close friends because I, all through college, during my mechanical engineering days at Purdue, I was a competitive ballroom dancer, swing dancing and Latin dancing, and actually became one of your better dancers in the nation. If you consider all of the people who might dance placed really well, really highly in amateur competitive dance in college. So that's one part of me that still exists. And the other fun part, Roberta, I don't talk about this too often, but I met my wife dancing, Johanna who I'm married to now and she is even better dancing than I am. She's a fantastic and still competes to this day. So that's one fun side about me that I don't spend a huge amount of time talking about. And then I mentioned I'm in coaching and long story made short my career in engineering, went through some really difficult times, burnout and depression, a divorce to my first spouse and in the healing and recovery of that whole experience, which we could talk about or not, whatever you want to do. I discovered the power of coaching and it. planted a seed that grew into eventually leaving that really successful engineering career to start this business, to help others not go through what I experienced and bring all of the career development that we need that's just not taught in engineering school to these technical leaders. And that's what I do now, full time. And it's absolutely a blessing. I love what we do with our clients at Oasis of Courage. Man, it's fun. But I'll stop there Roberta, throw it back to you. Oh, please continue if you wanted to. No, so the first thing I wanted to highlight, see the power of going out there and putting yourself up. That's how you met your wife, by pursuing a hobby, something fun, something you love to do. You see what happens? Because especially since the pandemic, so many of us are just stuck at home and then wondering, how am I gonna get a date? I agree, I agree. There's a... Really important principle of life that if you want to grow, you need to get out of your comfort zone. Right. And doing those same things that are easy and comfortable or hiding behind habits, that's not gonna get you to your goals and your dreams in any area, especially career, but you're right, it's true in relationships, it's true in your health. Gotta get out of the comfort zone if you want to grow. That's right. And then secondly, you spoke about burnout, you experienced burnout when you were in the engineering profession. We always saw the idea that the more you work, the harder you work, the more successful you're going to be. And no matter how you define success, and there's so many definitions nowadays, but is that the reason you pushed yourself so hard? You know, the way I describe it, Roberta, is I came out of college with a lot of ambition. And I'm still a very hardworking, achievement minded individual. I want to make a big impact in my life. And I'm sure your listeners understand that same desire. It's like, I want to go do something important with my life. Well, I only had one strategy. The strategy I knew coming out of college was get smarter and work harder. To your point, like just burn the midnight oil. If you're not getting the results you want, put in more time. Nose to the grindstone. Kind of a good old fashioned Midwestern farm boy ethic type of approach. And it worked really well all through school. Helped me to get great grades in valedictorian and full ride to Purdue and all these things. I was getting results. So I just kept going back to that same approach. And the problem with that approach, Roberta, is if you really look at the world around you, just step back and look, is it true that the hardest working people are the most successful? That's an important question to reflect on. Not necessarily. Yeah, it's like not, I mean, honestly, not at all. I can point to a lot of people who just break their backs and work such long, hard, grueling hours, two or three jobs, but at least by the measures of success I care about across my whole life, I wouldn't say that they're winning. So we need to ask ourselves new questions because clearly just working harder does not lead to success and there's more to the story. Obviously financial success, which we always chase in most cases when we wanna define success. But what about the lack of success in your relationships and not being able to see your family and not being able to go out and dance, a work life balance, because you may make the million, but at what cost? I agree. And Roberta, there is no amount of success at work. that can make up for failure at home. For me, that's period, end of statement. Because I've lived it, I've done it. Those promotions and paychecks prior to that period of depression and burnout, I would have traded all of that to have a healthy, thriving life at home. So I make that a non-negotiable with my clients. If all you care about is career success at any cost. And if you're willing to leave a trail of dead bodies behind you and burn bridges and treat others poorly and no judgment, that's not my place to decide what's right for you. But you're not going to want to coach with me. We're not compatible because I don't believe that that's a fulfilling life. I've never seen that work in the end from my perspective. And my clients would agree. So don't focus on that one dimension of money or titles and career progression only. That's just one piece. of your whole life success. Side note, we're not knocking ambition by the way and success. Not at all. We just saying let's do it smarter like you said and different strategies. Now let's talk about your experience when you were in engineering, communication skills. You talked about living a trail of dead bodies along the way of success, relationship building. Yes. How did you start to notice how important those skills were? It began with looking around at the organization. I built my engineering career at Whirlpool Corporation, great company, global footprint, huge organization. And you just start to notice, Roberta, who's getting the promotions, especially when we get to this senior manager, director, senior director, vice president level. Who are these leaders? What is their makeup? What do they do well? And the hard truth as you start to assess that many of them were very smart. I don't want to disrespect them in any way. Their engineering skills and acumen was great. But at the end of the day, I could have pointed to a lot of engineering leaders who were far less paid, less influential and lower in the org chart than these leaders when it came just to engineering skills. Like this, you know, senior engineer is much smarter than this vice president when it comes to engineering. The actual technical. Yeah. sure. And you know, we can argue, oh well, that VP has been removed from doing the work for a long time. But okay, but it's not even just that. You'd look at who is competing head to head for a particular director position. And it was not that the best technical person always got those roles. And so that sort of clued me in that there's more to the story. Then I had mentors and coaches sharing with me all of these same things, saying, Zach, if you want to reach these levels, it won't. be on the back of your engineering results alone. There was not a single voice from the place of success as I was defining it that gave me any reason to believe that my pathway would be singular around technical skills. Communication, relationships, emotional intelligence, empathy, all of these things just kept coming up again and again and again. And so I started to take that very seriously and began investing in myself. to go develop those skills. Roberta, I was still an engineer. The Zach that's talking today, the Zach who's built his own business and is a coach, this is not the same Zach that graduated from Purdue University. I was a very stereotypical engineer. And it took intention and development to sharpen that. And maybe I had a leg up on some, I was probably more willing to be outgoing than many, but I was still an introvert. It still took a lot of energy. and it's still required focus and growth. Stepping out of your comfort zone. 100%. And then when we talk about relationship building, the engineering company I worked for, first of all, they usually have the tender system where you bid for the jobs. But there comes a time when clients would actually call my boss specifically and say, not even bidding with the other companies, I say, we want him to do the job. Not because we were a better company or that he was better, but because of the relationship he got to build with them over time with the previous contracts. How important is that based on your experience? Yeah, we all want to do business with people we know, like and trust. We call it the KLT and in marketing, this is a big thing. Anybody who's a marketing professional understands that what we put out into the world, whether it's a phone call with a prospective client or a post on social media or what's on your website, it all exists to start to create this rapport, this know, like and trust factor. And if it's not present, people don't want to do business with you. And it's no different for internal customers and stakeholders than it is external. I know as an engineer, we weren't always closing sales or deals. We were much more focused on internal communication. But that relationship building is the same. I need to sell my idea to them. I need to sell them on getting this delivered on time, and working some extra hours this weekend to make sure that we keep the schedule. There's always an element of using the relationship to get things done. And without that KLT, you won't... be as successful or you'll do what Zach White used to do. Just find ways to take it all on yourself, seek to solve the problem alone, work those long hours to try to overcome the fact that someone else isn't doing their part, which A, doesn't always work and B, is a one-way ticket to burnout. So it's so important, super important. Relationship building, which as you said internally, that means it also applies to not the smartest, but the ones who get promoted are the ones who can build relationships. The higher you go, I guess there are more of internal communications with other departments, with the CEO, with the directors, and then with the team you're managing, there's more of that than rather than focusing on your cubicle. Absolutely. Okay. Take what John Maxwell, the most prolific leadership author of all time. John Maxwell says leadership is influence. Leadership is influence. Well, Roberta, the truth is your influence with another person is limited by the strength of the relationship. Now, you can leverage title-based influence. If I don't do what he says or what she says, I can get fired. You know, that's a form of influence, but that only will take you so far. And those people, if that's all you have, You tend to have high attrition and people who are not invested in the mission and the vision of your company, et cetera. So what I think about why is a relationship so important? It's opening the door of possibility for more influence. And the more influence I have, then the more I can lead and the more I can lead, then I'm able to grow and get promoted and do the things that the company is looking for from me because companies need leaders. They need engineers too, and they need marketing professionals and sales professionals and IT professionals. But companies need leadership desperately. And so when you can bring that, it's like a huge spotlight on you as someone who's worthy of promotion and like, let's do this, let's push them forward because they have this leadership acumen. Well, leadership is built on the backbone of relationships. And so it's so important. Yes. What do you think of psychological safety that leaders need to create an environment with psychological safety for the team members? What do you think of that? This is a really important term. And I love the work of Brené Brown and some of the other big voices in the world right now about how important this is. Simon Sinek talks about this a lot. I think his book, Leaders Eat Last, he talks about this. And I want to make two comments. The first I totally agree as a leader, we must pay attention to the environment we've created and have we done everything within our control to create psychological safety for our team. Why does it matter at all? In our psychology, we have these two modes in our nervous system, the fight or flight response, and our active prefrontal cortex, deep thinking. are more able to be friendly and empathetic and in the moment, you're on one side or the other of this spectrum. And it's a literal behavior of your nervous system. It's not something where you're in both at the same time. You're somewhere on that continuum. You can't be both. You're either in a fight flight response or you're not. Well, when you're in a mode of a lack of safety, and you're triggered into a fight or flight psychology, the whole pattern of that closes down your access to functions of your higher thinking and it moves blood to your Vital organs and muscles so that you can run and survive and there's all these measurable responses in your body But the bottom line is you're not doing your best work. You're not building great relationships. You're not able to think clearly Fear is a negative force in the workplace. You don't want that and so why psychological safety? It's because when people feel safe and they're not in that mode They literally biologically have access to their highest faculties, their best thinking, their most clear thinking, and therefore better results, better collaboration, more willing to constructively criticize in a way that leads to positive outcomes rather than aggressive criticism that leads to more fight or flight and shutting the conversation down. We've all experienced both of these, right? A critique that can lead to great outcomes or critiques that downward spiral into our arguments where then there's no. positive outcomes. And that's why psychological safety is such a critical concept for leaders. If it's not present, your team's performing at a fraction of their full potential. But the other comment I want to make, Roberta, is sometimes what I've seen recently is individuals who might be ICs on the org chart, an individual contributor, meaning you're not the boss, you're not the manager, you're not the director. Sometimes we pass the buck of the responsibility for psychological safety to the leader. And if you don't feel safe, you blame the leader because it's his or her responsibility to create that on the team. And I just wanna challenge myself and you and everybody, remember too, psychological safety is your own responsibility as well. If you don't feel safe, but you're not making yourself heard and understood and asking for that safety, you're taking a courageous action to say, willing or unable to contribute and having those hard conversations, then we're just as much a part of the problem. I just really believe in that idea that if we pass the responsibility for safety always to someone else, someone above us, then we're missing a big part of what actually creates it, which is an individual responsibility to say, I will join in the co-creation of safety. That's my piece that I don't hear talked about a lot. that I really believe in because anyone on the team can lead in creating safety. It doesn't have to be the boss. Yes, I've actually never been made aware of the fact that, hey, wait a minute, it can be from the bottom up as well. You know, it's not going leaders must create it and then the employees will engage and bring out their best, but they can also take the initiative to do so. That's right. And sometimes the leader wants to have that safety, but may not know. I mean there's lots of well-meaning leaders who just don't yet have that skill or that leadership ability to create it. They may not see that there's no safety. They think there is and they have a blind spot or maybe they have their own patterns that they don't realize are causing a problem even though their intention is good, their execution could be poor. That bottom up is so important that you can give them the feedback and give them the chance to go create it. Now they may say screw you, I don't care, this doesn't matter. And you may discover in that journey that you have a culture here that's not compatible. I would still call that a win, Roberta, rather than sitting in that culture and waiting for your leader to do it. Now you can make a choice. Is this the right place for me or do I need to find somewhere else to take my energy and a team I can feel safe on? That's true. That's why there's this coaching and these training programs or soft skills because they were also not coached on this. So they also need the help from the team members as well. Yeah, it sounds to me, there's also a principle you can apply in your personal life as well. Don't just fully live the responsibility of feeling safe and heard in the relationship to your partner, you know, unless you bring it up and they respond like you just said with someone who's a total, and then you go, oh, well, I guess I should be here then. Yeah, Robert, I'd summarize it as this. take responsibility and extend grace. To your point, many of our leaders mean well and just haven't yet crossed that threshold of development to be good at everything, and that's okay. Let's extend grace. Let's take responsibility. And then, if we realize this is a situation where they're unwilling to change or they're going to continue to make this very difficult for me, or I've done my part and they're not willing to do their part, take action. It doesn't mean you become a doormat. and let them run over you. That's not it. But we also don't wanna blame or pass that responsibility on because then unintentionally, I just put myself in the role of the victim and there's no power as a victim. So keep your power, take responsibility, but extend grace. Because as you call soft skills, these are human-centered skills. You're dealing with humans. Yeah. You know, we err, we make mistakes half the time in the midst of doing all the work. Hence, we need emotional intelligence. That's where that kicks in as well. Absolutely. Not taking everything personally and thinking, Oh, Zach and the boss is here to attack me. What can you say to that when it comes to emotional intelligence? Just in general, obviously, not everyone is the same. If you see how we interact online on the socials, If there's a scale as a society, it's reducing drastically. What do you think that is? I'll tell you about one of my clients named Hadi, an amazing engineer, incredibly smart, and has gotten to his position in his organization on the back of that intelligence, the ability to do tremendous engineering. And now he has a team under him. He's in a role where managing and leading is a day to day. factor in what he does and he's bumping up against some of these emotional intelligence limitations. How do I handle this conflict with my boss? How do I do what's right for my team and care about them as people but hold them to a high standard and coach them and challenge them and hold them accountable to delivering what they're supposed to do and have those hard conversations? These are all things that are weaknesses. for him as an engineering leader, which is really common. So we started coaching around this and saying, well, how do we begin the journey to mastery? And I know we have a lot of different personality types out there and I'll start with the engineering side, which is not just for engineers, right? The introvert, the analytical thinker, the person who wants to solve problems with their mind first. The place where we can struggle in developing those communication skills, relational skills, social and emotional intelligence, is we want to solve it at the level of the idea or the process or tool to go get it done. So a great example is Crucial Conversations, really popular book. A lot of HR people do these trainings. So you'll go read a book like that, which is a great book, by the way, and you'll see a framework. Oh, it's these five steps to having a... great one-on-one around a tough topic or having a crucial conversation. And so this thinker wants to learn and study an emotional intelligence concept, but we're constantly in our head. We're just thinking about it. But here's the problem, Roberta. Knowing the five steps, even memorizing the whole book, doesn't address the fact that there is no conversation happening. The courageous conversation, we're too afraid to step into that room where the arena of life happens and actually do the thing. It's like memorizing how to swim and you don't step into the water. Exactly. As you want to learn how to swim from books, a perfect example. And so we teach people emotional intelligence, but we don't address the core factor that it takes courage to grow. It takes... your willingness to fail and get uncomfortable and try new things and actually go do it to strengthen these skills. At the end of the day, for Hadi to have any conversation that's difficult is better than to sit and study another hour, the five steps to the perfect crucial conversation. And so where do you begin in EQ development? And what I do with my clients that's so important is we simply focus on action. bias for action. Let's just pick one little thing that you're going to do in this next conversation. Keep it very simple and let's have the call this afternoon. Don't delay. Get your engineer in the room. Have a 10-minute difficult conversation. One objective. See how it goes. You may fail gloriously. It could be a terrible conversation, but you had it. And now we can learn. If we don't actually take the action... then we have no opportunity to really learn what you need to develop as an EQ-minded leader. And so I think that's the main thing I would encourage for everyone. If this space of communication and relationships and emotional intelligence is evident as a gap for you, or let's face it, even if it's a strength, being even better will never hurt your success in life and career. Don't over-index on seeking to master the knowledge. Because EQ is first and foremost something that happens in the present moment in the arena of your life. And it's about energy before strategy. You need to get the willingness to show up in a hard space and get the intention and the energy right first. Then we can master what to say and how to say it or the five steps. But if you don't have the energy, it doesn't matter what strategy I give you. I could give you three steps, five steps, 20 steps. you're not going to succeed in the conversation if the energy's not right. So energy before strategy is the main thing for me. And have the courage, the oasis of courage. Yeah, there's a reason my company is named that. I really do believe these areas of growth require facing discomfort and fear, and courage is the catalyst to transformation in those areas, 100%. It's not just something for the workplace, but... And a lot of our personal relationships, the energy, just be there and step into that arena and say, we need to address this. Well, how you do anything is how you do everything. And we look at EQ as this professional skillset for advancing our careers, and it is. But how you show up in a difficult conversation at work, as a coach, I would look at that and say, I guarantee you. that you're showing up in difficult conversations at home with similar patterns, similar psychology, similar barriers. So absolutely, you get benefit across the whole spectrum of your life when you do this kind of work because that water level lifts all the boats. All of them, that's right. So we accuse colleges, maybe they're starting to change, but we accuse them of not emphasizing these communication skills. Like I said, You did all the hard work, valedictorian, graduated. If somebody comes with their Harvard resume, but they don't know how to communicate and how to sell themselves, I've heard of people not getting their dream job because of that. First thing we need to do in my opinion here, Roberta, is recognize that we're asking colleges to do a lot if we expect them to close this gap. Now, let me just back up. I agree with you. An engineering degree, and that's my specialty, so I'll focus on that. I can't speak to people coming from other backgrounds specifically from my own experience. But an engineering degree, what I have on the wall from Purdue University that says Zach White has met the requirements to receive a bachelor's in mechanical engineering. That degree was never intended to communicate into the world that I have what it takes to be successful in a company. That's not what it is. It represents that I have demonstrated the capability to apply and execute the fundamentals of mechanical engineering across a given set of topics and disciplines that the accrediting bodies have said represents what a great engineer should be able to do. It's a representation that I can do those problems. I know how to solve engineering problems within a certain set. That's it. It's a demonstration of my mastery of engineering. The mastery of communications, I don't have a communications degree, I have an engineering degree. My mastery of emotional intelligence, I don't have an emotional intelligence degree, I have an engineering degree. Can I have one? No, I don't think so. So I think in a way, you're absolutely right that the gap is significant, but I also think that we have put a pretty heavy burden on a four-year degree to say... Not only do you need to educate, test, and accredit to a certain skill set around these knowledge topics, but you also need to equip these students to be ready to succeed in the real world. That's a high calling. And I don't have the perfect answer to that. If I did, I'd be out solving that problem. I think it's a really tough problem. And I know there's brilliant leaders all around the world seeking to help universities solve that problem. But it's asking a lot. Because I know for my clients, how much work we do to build mastery in these areas in coaching programs, it's not trivial. And to do that at the same time as mastering new knowledge in your discipline is even more difficult, right? Now we're stretching ourselves in every way. So this is one of those things maybe coming back to personal responsibility. All of the collegiate engineers that come to me for advice, which happens all the time on LinkedIn, I'm pretty active there, they know I'm a coach. They know I work with high level leaders in engineering. So they reach out and say, Hey, what should I be doing in college to become a future CTO or to start a technical company and do the venture backed thing or whatever? What do I need to do? Just say, well, first thing is don't rely on your university to do it for you. Take that responsibility. Right. So where are you getting practice in your communication skills every single week? If you don't have that place. Let's go find it. Is it volunteering? Is it joining a student organization? Is it like, what do you need to be doing every single week to develop that skill set? And where are you building relationships with new people every single week? Going into a room with people you don't know and practicing walking up to a stranger and introducing yourself. Where are you doing that every single week? If it's nowhere, then let's go find a place, right? Where can you make that happen? This is something that anybody can do. And in a way we all know we should do, but nobody does it. Because it's hard and it's uncomfortable. It's like, I don't wanna do that. For the majority of the population it really is. We not have been joking, it is. Yeah. I don't wanna dismiss it like, oh, this is so easy if everybody. It's so much simpler to just do your homework, play your video games, hang with your friends, have a good time. Look, do that sometimes, I love that. But if your intention and your aspiration... is to come out of college and be one of the best, not just in your discipline, whether it's engineering or accounting or finance or anything, but also readiness to go make an impact and advance quickly. And then you need to address these gaps. Like I said, the very first step coming out of there, you graduate, get a job. So you might even miss out on getting into the ring, into the arena, and then start climbing and elevating your career. It absolutely happens. Just met an engineer who out of college couldn't land a role, worked at a gas station for nine months before finding a role. And I just wanna acknowledge that leader for having the humility to say, I'll do whatever it takes to earn a living until I can get something that's in my field and kudos to him for doing that. But that's a hard thing to face. Especially after doing all this work for four years at university. Exactly. Zach, you host the Happy Engineer podcast. If you think about it, how many times do we think of engineers and associated with the adjective happy? How did you come up with that? What you just said is super true. Roberta, my heart breaks when I look into the engineering world and I see how many of these leaders have lost their passion for engineering in the first place. They're grinding it out. They dread Monday morning, or even worse, they're just okay. I just had an hour coaching call with an engineering leader yesterday, and what he told me was, I'm okay. And then I pressed deeper, he said, eh, it's more like meh. The word I would use to describe my career is meh. It's like this expression of indifference. And that is a big, big chunk of engineering, and frankly, it's a big, big chunk of professionals. in all discipline, in every company. And that breaks my heart, is there's so much in life to love and to enjoy and to find meaning and purpose and passion in, everybody wants to be happy that I've met so far. I haven't met that person yet who is assuming they're healthy in their psychology, there's nothing going on, I've just never met that person. So the Happy Engineer was born as the podcast for that sole idea of, look, A happy engineer delivers better projects. A happy engineer builds relationships easier at work. A happy engineer gets the promotions and results that they want in the workplace anyway. Who would you rather hire? All things are equal. They have the same credentials, the same experience, the same everything, but one of them walks into the interview just bubbling with this joy and happiness and energy and the other one just seems like life is a total drag. They're depressed. Who are you gonna hire? People want to work with happy people. And so that's the heartbeat for me. And it is about building our career, but it's also about balancing our life and this whole person so that we can be happy. And that's what the podcast is all about. We are sure going to subscribe to it and listen. I'm gonna write everything about it on the show notes. Thank you so much. Now, last words of wisdom. Is there anything I didn't ask you today that you wanted to share with our listeners? Knowing that communication, how we use our voice and our body language and our energy to influence others is why everyone is here today. I'll just say one more thing about that. If you don't know the answer to why improving in your communication and speaking ability matters for you, not why for yourself, why does this actually matter? I'm a absolute thousand percent believer in purpose as a catalyst to action change and results. And so just ask yourself, why does this matter for me? And then add right now, why does this matter for me right now? And get clear on that answer, really clear. Get into it and make sure you know, because The work that Roberta's challenging you with is hard work. It's not something that's gonna be easy. We already said today, you're gonna be out of your comfort zone. You're gonna do things that'll feel uncomfortable. You're gonna embarrass yourself. There's gonna be failures along the way to your ultimate success. And most people will listen to this podcast and do nothing because inertia and the comfort zone is so powerful. And if you want to be the kind of person who compounds results day in and day out every single day, you need that compelling purpose. So make sure you answer that question and then go take action right now. Don't delay. Let's do this. Let's do it. Indeed. Words of wisdom from Zach White, the lifestyle engineer, CEO and founder of Oasis of Courage and host of the Happy Engineer podcast. Now, Zach, before you go, we want to learn more from you. Where can we find you on the interwebs? Roberta, the podcast is a great place to go. Of course, wherever you listen to this amazing show, you can go check out the Happy Engineer. It's also the happyengineerpodcast.com. And from that website, you can find every way to reach me. If you wanna get on my calendar for a free coaching session, please reach out to our team, book a free call. We can make that happen. if you need support in any area, or you just wanna find me on social, et cetera. So thehappyengineerpodcast.com, or just jump over in your podcast player to the Happy Engineer, and it's all linked up right there in our show description. The Happy Engineer podcast, is that quite? Thank you so much for being on the show today. I had such a great time talking to you. Roberta, it's an absolute honor, and I can't say enough about the work. that you're doing, your listeners are in the right place. Thank you so much. Thank you for the kind words. Appreciate you. Don't forget to subscribe, give a rating and a review, and we will be with you next time.