Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating podcast. I am your host Roberta. If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into. And by the end of this episode, please remember to subscribe, give a rating and a review. We speak a lot about executive coaching in the workplace on this podcast, especially because research has shown that a lot of people exit their organizations not due to money issues, but rather due to leadership concerns. My guest today, Mary Lee Gannon, who is an executive coach and works as a CEO of the Hospital Foundation, is here to talk about how, wherever you go, there you are, and how she does the work that helps people deal with those leadership issues. And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show. Hi, Merrilee. Hi, Roberta. I'm really happy to be with you today. I'm excited for you to join us on the show, welcome. Yes, me too. I love your show. Oh, appreciate that. Thanks so much. So where in the US are you? I'm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I was born here. I went to school here until college. I went to college in Michigan, and then I... took a job in the medical center in Houston, Texas, worked there professionally and came back home after a couple of years, but I'm still in the medical profession by day. I work as a hospital foundation president. Okay, so back home where all of the support group is. So true. Right. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, I, like most people in life, have had to deal with some challenges. And I think that those challenges really not only teach us resilience, but teach us how to look within ourselves. And I, just like everybody else, think I'm living a great life. I get married. I have children. I think that that's a happily ever after for forever. And it was not. It was an one with a developmental disability. And I really had to weigh my life up against what was reality and what was my dream. And what I learned is that we can create new dreams, but I was dying in my marriage because it was an abusive situation. And I filed for divorce, thank you, as a leap of faith. And I wasn't prepared for the avalanche that befell me. I found myself within a few months going from what... may have looked on the outside like the country club life to welfare, food stamps, medical assistance, being homeless and not having an automobile. And at that point in your life, you're saying one of two things, why me? Which I think is typical and what any normal person would do and the other thing is, well, now what? And so I was done dying in the why me and the self pity and. all of the things that keep us stuck. And then I set about on a course to become leader of my own destiny. And in order to do that, I had to do a lot of soul searching. There's a lot of practical things that you can do to be an executive and to grow. And then there's a lot of internal things that we must do before we can actually show up at our best. And that's the work that I do with people now, because I think if we don't do that, constantly on that treadmill to nowhere, wondering why we're not happy. Wow. First of all, what a very touching story. Your experience, I'm sure a lot of women especially have gone through that. The first question is, how do you take that leap when it's not just you? It's one thing if it's just you and you think, you know what, I'm living this abusive situation. I'm gonna figure it out, but I can't stay here. You have four little ones in tow? Yes. I did. You know, you sort of weigh that out. It's actually where you're more responsible, because I'm saying to myself, oh, maybe I can put up with this. But then I'm saying, I'm a role model for these four little kiddos. And do I want my three daughters to grow up and marry this? Or my son to grow up and beat this because it was okay for me. And when they got to an age where they were self aware It was game over for me. I could not. I just couldn't. I couldn't subject them to thinking that this was an okay life. I had put up with it for much longer than was healthy for me. But I had to get myself in a place where I had the wherewithal to go out and create my own life, not expecting. I think when we attach ourselves to expectations, is when we start to give our destiny over to something else. And I had to let go of expectations and assumptions and really find within myself very strategically what I was good at and play to that, not my weaknesses because I'd only be mediocre. I chose to develop and play to my strengths. Yes, when they talk about, you know, focus on your weaknesses. Doesn't it take much longer and much more effort? And it's a struggle, it's a bigger struggle. Whereas when you focus on what you're good at and expand on that, you do a much better job. Whatever the outcome is gonna be so much better. You're smart, that's exactly right. And people don't see that, Roberta. People think, oh, I'm not good at spreadsheets. I better take a spreadsheet class or I'm not good at... Let's talk about what you are. good at. Let's position your value proposition as the maven you are at XYZ skills because that's where you're going to get hired, promoted, be able to weigh in with more impact. But you have to know with that. You have to know yourself well enough. Have self-awareness. I say you have to have three things. Self-awareness, the ability to self-regulate, and when you have those two, then you have self-acceptance. You don't have self-acceptance if you don't know the other two things, how to control yourself, impulse control, how to control those thoughts that hold you back, even be aware of those thoughts that hold you back. Right. And in defense of most people, you know, when we listen to all these motivational mindset coaches, they say, oh, everything about you, let's fix it now. Because the thing that is not fixed is making you a lesser person, Mary Lee. Come on, you know how this goes. You know, I'm so glad that you say this, Roberta. Nobody talks about this. But can we stop with all of the positivity and affirmations and this in theory, if it worked, people like me wouldn't get hired because we need to be a little broader about, hey, you know, I'm... feeling sad right now or I'm frustrated. Let me get a little bit deeper into that so I understand where that's coming from because there are thoughts which emotions follow and then our actions follow those emotions. And if we can't control the first part of that, by first ferreting out and getting very deeply into what emotion I can't deal with because that angry person at work that you don't like, they're struggling with something that is in much more pain than you are. When you can get down into the emotion, you can release it and allow it to flow through you and then create other thoughts. But you can't just tell yourself, oh, I'm going to think better thoughts and it doesn't work that way. We have to honor and respect and process those difficult emotions so that we can honestly and authentically come to new thoughts. That's right. And as a disclaimer, by the way, we're not discarding affirmation. I do them. Affirmations is a concept, but like you said, much broader. If I keep putting band-aid of positive thoughts and there's something much deeper that I haven't done work on, they're not gonna stick. I've tried it before. They don't stick until I deal with the thing that is underneath all that. Well, you're self-aware enough, I would submit to you that your affirmations are probably intentions. You've been very intentional about coming up with them and you're making that promise to yourself. You're not just throwing fluff out there, you're saying, a promise to yourself. That's what an intention is that I'm affirming that I am this, whatever it is that you're telling yourself. Yeah. It's not just random ones. It's one specifically for the thing I'm dealing with. Yeah. Purposeful. Yeah. I'm sure. That's right. And that's why people then turn around and say it doesn't work. Then it becomes the thing instead of focusing on the actual problem. So inner work is the first thing. And speaking of inner work. When you've had challenges and you've got the mindset, you've got the inside work, but you also have the practical day-to-day tools. I think the reason people are sometimes afraid to step out into the unknown, they don't have the map. They don't have the, if I leave this abusive marriage, where are my kids gonna sleep tonight? If I don't know that, I'm not gonna leave yet. The practical tools, the to-do list, they don't know what's coming and they feel unprepared. You're so right, Roberta. I can remember lying in bed at night, looking up at my ceiling saying, CYS is going to show up and take these kids away. I don't have a plan. What am I going to do? And that despair was not helpful, but practically that's where my head went. And what you're suggesting is finite, concrete and important. In my case, what I did was I networked with people who I knew were connected. I knew what my signature strengths were. I talked about them in meeting with them. And I said, if you hear of anything, please let me know. So I didn't just blindly say, I'm leaving this man now. I had a child with a developmental disability. I had to get that program paid for by the government because I knew he would cut it off and he did. So I strategically went about social services ways to figure out how to get that funded. And then I... looked and defined my signature strengths and my value proposition, why me, why now? What can I do in a unique way that other people can't do because they're not me? And then I talked to people about those two things, my signature strengths and my value proposition and how I want to bring an impact. And then when I went on my first interview was for a CEO role in an organization where I had never worked in any of the other roles underneath that person, but I had worked as a volunteer raising a lot of money and raised more than that department had the whole year prior, when I earned that role, that's when I filed for divorce. So I think you bring up a really good practical point that people have to keep in mind is that it's not rainbows and butterflies. We must be pragmatic about what we're doing so that we set ourselves up for success and don't end up saying what you previously said, oh, it doesn't work. Well, maybe we didn't go about it in a strategic way. Do your homework and then strategically take those steps in moving forward. When you talk about the skills for that first job, the strengths, we talk about, you've got technical skills and then you've got soft skills. We usually emphasize soft skills, that they're transferable. You can go to any job with them. What kind of skills are those? What kind of strengths did you have or did you mention when you're putting your profile together? Well, so wise of you to say transferable skills. I talk about this a lot. transferable skills fall into three categories, communication, organization of information, and systems and equipment. I knew strategically that I had very good organizational skills and very good communication skills. And when I spoke to them, I didn't say, oh, I have good skills in these areas because nobody believes them. What I told were stories about how I went about a challenge. and how I met that challenge. So if you think about, would you rather watch a documentary about 1940s immigrants from Italy in America, or would you rather watch The Godfather? You'd rather watch The Godfather because the characterization is so strong, you're actually pulling for the criminals in the movie. And that's what you have to do when you talk about yourself, not I miss this and this, show, show don't tell, by showing through stories. what you came upon and I never complained about my home situation because then the hiring manager would think that I might complain about them. All I said was I found myself at this point in my life, the sole provider for five children. And what I will tell you is here are some ways that I have met challenges in the past and I listed all the things that I had fundraised for in the past and here are the things that I learned along the way. And they like to see your humility. They like to see that you struggle with things. I thought this at first and then over time I realized this, that humanity that you bring to the table allows that hiring manager to think, I like this person and I'm getting to know them. Because when you go on an interview, all you want is for the red flags to be down. You don't have to dazzle and tap dance on the desk. They just want to know that you're not going to embarrass them, that you're going to be able to do the job, that you'll figure it out or ask the questions needed, that you'll make them look good, that you're not looking for their job. Those are the things that we need to keep in mind. We want the manager to know that we want them to look good. If I were doing this job at 100% expectation, what would that look like? Because I know you need to go back to your job and not worry about me. That's a wonderful thing on an interview to say. The hiring manager is thinking, this person, I better get to know them better. I like them. They know that wherever you are, that will be taken care of. Whatever needs to be done will be done. I just want to take a moment to talk about the part where in the interview, one of the soft skills is that you can work with people. So true. Yes, I think that most people don't realize that, what you're saying. One of the red flags is, is will this person fit in this culture? And how do they know that? And they know that because your job when you're going into the interview is to have the hiring manager think, boy, I'd really like to have coffee with this person. That's how interesting they are. So if you can come across that way, instead of trying to impress them with how wonderful you are, And one of the things to keep in mind is curiosity. If you're asking questions about them, well, how long have you worked here? What have you discovered along the way? How would you describe the culture? What do you think my biggest struggle would be if I were to get this job? If you were in my shoes, how would you handle that? That curiosity is very connecting with people, but to have that humility, You have to be able to struggle with the ego that rises up and says, Oh, you're not safe. You better start trying to impress somebody. You need to be able to lasso that ego, have that self regulation to pull in, hand to heart, say, you know what? I've got this. I'm going to be curious here. I'm going to show up just as I am, not who I think I need to be to impress somebody. Because they can sense, you know, energy. can be felt, they can sense that you talk a good game and therefore they're not sure if they hire you if you're gonna back that up with action. Roberta, that's exactly what hiring managers think. That's it, all right. That's exactly what they're thinking. Toxic in game, but I don't really know this person. I just don't feel, you know, people will forget what you say and do, but they will never forget the way you make them feel. And that... connection on the way you make them feel? Are you looking around their office and seeing what's on their desk and asking them questions about their family or anything else that you notice in the office? That connectivity is far more important than you telling them. They can always have another interview and get to know more about you. And interviews nowadays are almost. multifaceted, you're meeting with lots of people. It could be like a firing squad where they're all in the same room, but not so much anymore. It's more one-on-one. You'll schedule meetings with other people. And that's a time where you have to show up authentically because the artificial intelligence that goes in and scrubs all the resumes today in corporate America, it's already brought you to the table. If you have an interview. You've already on paper been determined that you are qualified to be considered. So put that fear aside and move into the space of now I need to show up as a person, a human with humanity, a human being. Because they've got the technical skills in your resume already, that's why you've got to this stage. So now present the human side, but also be careful. Earlier you mentioned something very profound, which was, I just said, I found myself in a situation where I have to feed these five mouths. You didn't start telling your whole challenging story. Sometimes you've got to be careful, you know, the headline, but not the whole biography of the story. Exactly. Less is more. But remember, it's not for them to understand the nuances of your personal situation because they think you're going to bring those problems to work. The fact that you have the executive presence to know that all that is relevant is the impact. And the impact is that I've found myself to be now the sole provider of my five children. Whether my husband died, I mean, clearly they see me sitting there without a wedding ring and they're going to make the assumption that I've gone through a divorce. But it's irrelevant for this meeting. And if they know that I know enough not to be talking about that, then they don't have to worry that I'm going to bring a lot of personal problems to work. Talk about them every day when you're at the office. Yeah. But we're now in a culture where we're much more well being focused. And, you know, the study that just came out from McKinsey that shows female leaders are leaving their positions. Why? Because of microaggressions from not getting promoted, they want flexibility, and they want well-being. So I do think that corporate America is listening now and is interested in your well-being, but that's, I see a boundary between your well-being and your personal drama. So corporate America wants you to take care of yourself. They want you to go to the gym. They want you to have meditation. They want you to have prayer, whatever your go-to practice is. And I work this. into all of the work I do with my clients. We have to have mindful daily practices, but that doesn't mean that we should be bringing the distraught nature of our personal drama into the workforce such that we can't get our work done. We have to get our work done. And then let's talk about the work you do with your clients. So how did you get started on that? I found that so many people locally knew what I had been through because it's sort of public when you live in an affluent community and the sheriff tapes the sales sign to your front door, everybody sort of knows that there's a problem there. So it was pretty public what happened and a lot of people respected how hard I was working and what I was able to accomplish. So coaching clients just started organically coming my way. And then I thought, oh, well, maybe I should. earn a certification because maybe I shouldn't be doing this because I don't know if I'm good enough at it, which is more head trash, right? We do that. I took a university program and passed the highest coaching certification you can have internationally. And then I said to myself, well, I sort of knew all this because I already lived it. So I had that just through my remarks on social media and LinkedIn. A lot of people follow me on LinkedIn. I just organically found this following of people who would come to me when they were tired of being on what I call the treadmill to nowhere, working harder, not being noticed. Somebody else comes in and does half the work and gets the promotion, and you're sitting there saying, well, why not me? I'm working hard, but we're not positioning ourselves. We're not sure what our strengths are, our value proposition, our personal mission. We're just not in the same space of. belonging, feeling worthy and confidence and self-esteem. And so we just have to work on ourselves a little bit in a very specific way to show up authentically who we are. And then things start shifting. It doesn't mean we need another, should I get this degree? Should I get, no. We just need to look internally. And this is why they don't teach this at school because it's too personal. you need to go inside yourself, not externally to another conference. And we've all seen all the webinars and talks and all kinds of things, but until we're willing to actually go inside, and that's what I do is I shepherd people to look inside themselves. As I said earlier, we talk a lot about that as soft skills are the reasons people get promoted, even though you may work harder and you've got a PhD and he's only got a bachelor's, but if he knows how to work with people resolve conflict with clients, relationship building, and whatnot, then you sit and wonder, how did I not position myself to be promoted and they're going after it? And I've been going to conferences every week and I have a PhD. You are so right, it happens every single day. And one other thing, Roberta, that I noticed that a lot of the people who get promoted, they have finesse, and that is what we have when we feel we belong, right? So... They have charisma. Well, Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin had charisma too. And they got voted in and people liked them at first too. And we know the character flaws in all three of them. So you have to not only have the skills and the soft skills, but also you have to have a little bit of finesse, which comes from knowing why you specifically. Why you, why now? When you can shed that cloak that we cover over our egos when we don't want to deal with the doubt and the fear, and we cover it over with these self sabotage behaviors. We've talked about all kinds of things, assumptions and all of that expectations. When we cover over that, we're just covering over the finesse that we need to have to show up assured. Because if you think you can get something done, someone else will think so too. If you don't think you can, they're not going to believe you can either. So you have to believe in you first. And beliefs, unfortunately, are what happen to thoughts that are doubtful when we let them run amok. So that thought of I'm not blank enough, smart enough, educated enough, whatever enough, becomes a core belief, which is... really just a thought. So we have to get that thought up and recognize what we're doing. We're believing this nonsense is actually true and it's fiction. We have to get back to the non-fiction part of who we are when we are truly ourselves. That is fiction for sure. When you think you don't belong, when I buy a product, I'm not buying the product you're selling, I'm buying you. You come with the belief, the finesse you're talking about, the confidence. I've had a few clients who have discussed how they just focus on women because as women, it turns out, usually have less of a belief that I belong on the sixth suite than men. Is that true? 100% Roberta. So my male clients will apply for jobs that they are not remotely qualified for and believe they can do them. And I think more power to you and we position them and that's great. I have women clients who won't even apply for jobs that they are 100% qualified for because they're, well, I don't have experience doing that. You have experience doing this specific requirement in that job description in another industry. It's the same job. And this is what I try and convince people over and over and over again is forget about the industry. The skill is transferable. And if you doubt that, If you have the mocks that you can say to a hiring manager, I ask you to consider your lowest performer in your organization right now. If they knew more about your industry, would that make them a better performer? Any manager will tell you no to that question because they know that somebody's performance is not linked to them knowing the industry. That's more a character rich trait. That's more intrinsic. So we have to sometimes manage up and help the hiring manager start to understand. They ask you, do you have any experience doing this? Don't ever say no. I have had experience doing this, this and this. It's irrelevant what industry, and you don't want to lie or misrepresent yourself. You can even preface it with, well, I know it may look on my resume that I don't have this, whatever it is, experience. I have done this, and this. And I always tell my clients, the last question on an interview should be, what is keeping me? from being the lead candidate for this role, because you'll know what that is. You'll know in your heart what that is. You have the opportunity to let them say it and have you address it. And if they say, well, I don't know, you can actually bring it out on the table. Well, you may think this, I just wanna bring clarity to, and then explain what it is that you want them to know about you in an area where you think they may be doubtful. That is a very good question compared to, what's the starting salary? Or I'm not saying, Pay is not important by the way, please don't misunderstand me. But when they say, do you have questions for us? If you can get probing questions like that, that'll surely help you, that is so much more important. You're absolutely right. And there are some other ones that you can ask like, well, how long was the last person in this position? Do you see a career ladder for this position? So they're thinking that you're progressive and you're thinking about your own career. Who else is tied to this position? What alliances do we need to have in order for this position to be successful? How does this position figure into the goals of your department? So they can see that you're strategically thinking and asking questions as if you already have the position. I generally say, wait till they make you an offer to discuss whatever the package is with the offer, but start with your. concern about bringing impact to the role, and what you will need to be successful to do so is the questions that you wanna ask on the interview. Cause they can also pick up that you see yourself long-term here. Remember, they don't wanna keep hiring for the same position every six months. Now talking about positioning yourself, what else should you do in order to bring out that finesse, that... I belong here. So I would encourage anybody in any organization to start looking at committees within the organization that are of interest authentically to you. And all organizations have them, whether it's DEI committee, whether it's a green committee. There's always something where you can be involved. And when you show up at the table with people who you don't work with every day, that's where you have. the opportunity to showcase your leadership. And it starts with the first skill of listening. That doesn't mean you need to speak. You know the people that are speaking just to be heard. You're listening such that you're able to ask questions that nobody maybe has considered in the past or that people are thinking, well, I would ask that question, but I don't have the confidence to do that. Be thoughtful and be the person that asks those questions, but you won't be the first to speak because you don't know what to ask. unless you listen to everybody else in the room first, be known for what you're known for. Are you the strategic thinker? Are you the bridge connector? Are you the resourceful one? Are you the kind and compassionate one? And how are you demonstrating that when you show up at a meeting? Because you're going to want to look at the agenda ahead of time and put some thought into that before you show up at those meetings. Other ways that you can... position yourself in an organization is make sure that you know who the leaders of the organization are and if you are in the vicinity of them introduce yourself. I just want to introduce myself. I'm Mary Lee Gannon. I'm president of whatever division and I'm very happy to be here and I am looking forward to bringing an impact. That's all you have to say. They'll say whatever they're going to say, but you're just introducing yourself. I think you need to also know your value proposition such that if somebody says, well, what do you do for us here? You have something to say. And that value should be on how you're bringing an impact to the organization, hopefully in a measurable way. Hopefully there's a number in there, increase something, decrease something, a certain percentage. But this takes preparation and we don't have confidence and feel we belong when we don't fill in these blanks that are openly calling us to fill them in. That is so important. And also when you think about performance reviews, I'm guessing a lot of leaders are too busy to notice all of those nuances and the little things. How can you, at your performance review, you bring that out without sounding like you're getting off the tangent or if you think, let's just focus on work, Mary Lee, why are you talking about the comedies and things like that? Great question, great question. I think performance management systems, they're necessary because we have to quantify what we do and how we're measuring people against each other. And I understand the need for them. Most managers will tell you that it's one of their biggest nightmares because sometimes a lot of organizations have pre-prescribed raises. They can't really evaluate people and give them what they want to. Because if they give somebody a high, that means they have to give somebody else a low to balance it off. which is unfair, but that's corporate America. And the way that I have found throughout my career and when I talk to my colleagues who are also executive leaders, the thing that is most, I think, successful is I do stay interviews. So we have a performance review cycle and we have these things that we have to fit the box into the square hole and do it that way. But then I have regular meetings with my staff where I ask them a series of questions like, How are we doing as an organization? When you took this job, did we measure up to what you expected? How can I give you more from me what you need to be happy here? Where do you see yourself in three years? What do you think we should be doing less of? What do you think we should be doing more of? What do you think we should stop doing altogether? This way, the employee is sitting there thinking, wow. I've never been asked that before. Because that's not on the paper. Exactly. It doesn't say, how many spreadsheets did you do last week? It's a bit to me. The whole thing is a lot of organizations have values. They hang them on the wall. But then, depending on who's in the leadership roles, are we really living this? So that's a conversation you can have on a stay interview. So I really like the stay interview model with questions that I can. create myself that aren't prescribed questions. And we have them regularly because I think it's necessary. I also think that in today's culture, we have to give so much more flexibility. I really don't care if my people work from home. I have found giving my team more flexibility has made them more productive. A lot of organizations will say not so, but it's not been my reality. My reality is You know what, you're not feeling well today, work from home. I know you're still going to get work done. And I know when you come back, you're going to appreciate that I let you do that. And you are going to provide whatever I need at 150% because you're appreciative. So I appreciate you. And then you'll appreciate working for me too. It's a two way street. I think it's actually for the better. I'm actually happy about it because I remember being a new leader in a new executive director role. and having to be at a 7 a.m. hospital meeting and dropping my children off at people's houses before they were even awake in the morning. Because if I missed that meeting, boy, you were gonna be in trouble. And I just don't think we can do that to people. They are more productive because one, you've shown that you trust them and you trust them to deliver. Organizations that you say they don't believe that, I think more than anything, some leaders are so obsessed with the hours. So short-sighted. Not me submitting to you the ultimate report you were asking for. They're just obsessed with the hours that you did put in the eight hours while you were home during COVID. You know, Roberta, that is such a good point to bring up. Because unless you're on an assembly line where there is a schedule of things that are coming down the road that you're putting together, which I understand very important and highly technical roles in some of those assembly lines, if you're assembling cars, I have clients from Ford Motor. Okay, I understand that. But unless you're doing that kind of work, it's like Abraham Lincoln said, if you give me six hours to chop down a tree, I'm gonna spend four sharpening the ax. If I know I can get this done in six hours, I'm probably not even gonna start until a little bit closer. And this is why I say to my clients, leave your office at five o'clock, don't be working till seven, because when you show up. Show up knowing that you want to be out of there by five and you will be more productive than if you gave yourself until seven Because you work differently when you're allowing yourself to think it's okay to work these long hours and it's not okay That's not for your well-being That's why they're burned out and stressed and Anxiety all of this stuff. We talk about it so much, but we don't change Well, yes, because we have to be the change we wish to see right? We have to be the change we want to see. And that gives us power, but we spend so much time in the victim corner of this organization isn't doing this for me, and this isn't fair, and this does not help us advance the ball. And so many people get stuck in that, and we have to go back. That's where we search inside ourselves and get our power back first so that we can show up. building our self-awareness, our ability to self-regulate those limiting thoughts that hold us back so that we can still think that we're awesome even when we think them. Like, but it's okay, I see that feeling and I'm gonna work through it. That's different than, I can't believe I can't stop thinking I'm not good enough to be here. Why can't I stop thinking that? There's too much judgment in that. It's not mindful. And beating ourselves up is always the first go-to for some reason. We just beat ourselves up. It's the first call to when we have compassion for our friends and family when they're in pain, but we just beat ourselves up. Marilee, I'd like you to just give us a summary of the work you do. If you can just tell us a story of a client you've worked with, how you got them started, and where they are based on some of the key things you just covered with them. Sure. People most of the time come to me because they're just unhappy where they're working. And often they think that... The only unhappiness is within the situation of their job. And once we start working together, they start to understand that they have more control than they think in that situation. And when they understand that control, I'm thinking of one of my clients, Kelly, works within a multinational organization, really had a difficult manager, couldn't get that person to respect them no matter what they did. Finally, she realized that she was not the problem. And she learned to up level how she managed her manager by specific things such as, and there are tactical things and then there are nuances, right? You talked about soft skills and practical skills. She had to learn the practical skill of saying, well, if I were meeting your expectations, what would that look like? Cause people that want to give you a hard time will just give you a hard time, even if it's not just. And if you can call them on the carpet and say, what exactly do you expect? What would that look like? I want to be able to give that to you. Then they have to think, and they know you're gonna come back and keep saying that, well, if I were to do that, what would that look like? They'll stand down a little bit more because now you're going to call them to be more specific and that's harder for them because of course they're not going to say, I just don't like you. So once she learned how to manage that manager and started evaluating what her. personal values were with respect to how the company was living those values through her manager. She said, I'm done with this. And she found another job within the company. You don't always have to leave the organization. She built alliances with, I call it optimizing your environment. She built key connections by being on committees, what we talked about, connecting with other people. And she found another inroad to get a great role in the organization. And then she knew when she gave her notice, she fully expected that person wasn't going to care and she had to prepare for that. Cause most of the time when we say goodbye, we think they're gonna care and that's not the case. They will replace you within 30 days and not look back. So she was okay with that. She was prepared for that, lateraled into a new position and has been soaring ever since. And we're still very, very good friends and thrilled for her. But that kind of transformation doesn't come from, well, I just need to update my resume and start looking outside of the organization. Then you're going to go there and there's gonna be another difficult boss and you're not going to know how to manage that person or yourself or show up with your value proposition because you don't even know what that is. So I hope that answers your question as sort of an anecdotal version of what it is to work with me. One thing we hadn't covered was managing up, which I think is a very key. part of this and a lot of us don't know how to do it. You know how sometimes you're asking me to say, Roberta, you could do better. Okay, what should I do better? You could be more confident. What would that look like, Roberta? Now I'm gonna say what would that look like? Tell me if I were doing that, what that would look like. You're going to be managed by people who probably don't have the emotional intelligence that you have, especially if you're listening to this podcast, you're interested in being a really good communicator and having... A plus emotional intelligence, right? Excellent. What likelihood is it that every single manager you're going to have has that same thirst for knowledge and emotional intelligence? Probably not. So you have to be prepared for some of the people and we're servant leaders and we want to help shepherd them to understand us more, for them to be as good as they can be. So we have to sometimes manage them in a way that does not make them feel threatened. or make them feel that we want their job or that we're trying to one-up them by coming alongside, if you've ever read the 48 Laws of Power, it's a book that will tell you all kinds of things you don't wanna know and you can't believe people lead this way, but you need to read it because people do lead this way. And the very first one is have your bosses back. You have to have your bosses back or your life will be miserable. And if you can't find a way to do that, either find another boss or figure out how to manage yourself so you can have your bosses back. And once a bad boss, trust you, they will leave you. You just want to be off the radar screen. If you have a bad boss, there's no way you are ever going to be finding affirmation from them. And if you're needy from that perspective, they control you. So you cannot absolutely expect them to make you feel good about you. You need to find a coach and feel good about yourself and then manage them in a way so that you're off their radar screen. Exactly. Because when you feel good about yourself, you're going to have the finesse. You're going to have the sense of belonging wherever. Whenever you walk into a room. Last words of wisdom, Mary Lee, you have so much that you've shared with us. My last words of wisdom? The most important thing that I will tell you, everybody has everything inside of them right now that they need to be happy and fulfilled and satisfied. I think that the concept of thrive is an American concept. And it is not one that is sometimes healthy for people because implied in that is that I must be doing a little bit more. I'm not thriving enough. Satisfied is fulfilled. It's content. It's enough. And there will be days. There should be days in everybody's life where they're sitting back on their front porch, sipping lemonade and saying, life is good. And that's today. Because What you have inside of you is more than enough to show up for yourself and to advance in your career and in your relationships and in your wellbeing just by looking inside yourself. That's all it takes. Words of wisdom from Mary Lee Gannon, the executive coach and CEO of the Hospital Foundation. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today and for taking your time to be here. You're most welcome and thank you for featuring me. I'm really honored to be here, to be with you. And you have such a wonderful presence about you, Roberta. Your listeners are very fortunate to have you. Thank you, Mary Lee. I appreciate your kind words. Thank you for saying that. And before you go, where can we find you if we want to know more and work with you possibly? Simply at my name, MaryLeeGannon.com. My podcast is there. Everything about my coaching, a free career plan is there, all kinds of free tools on all kinds of career tools that you need to advance in your career and just find your wellbeing. Very important indeed. Thank you so much for taking your time to be with us today. Absolutely. That was Mary Lee again and thank you for being here and don't forget to subscribe, give a rating and a review and we'll be with you next time.