Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Welcome back to the Speaking and Communicating Podcast.

I am your host Roberta.

If you are looking to improve your communication skills, both professionally and personally, this is the podcast you should be tuning into.

And by the end of this episode, please remember to subscribe, give a rating and a review.

Now we all know that the tech industry is mostly male dominated, and women who have been in it for a long time, even for a few decades, have had to face some challenges in order for their voices to be heard and for their expertise to be respected.

My guest today, Limor Bergman Gross, she leads women in tech to get to the next level in their careers.

And before I go any further, please help me welcome her to the show.

Hi, Limor.

Hi, Roberta, how are you today?

I'm doing great.

How are you?

I'm good.

Tell us where you're based, which part of the world?

Yeah, I'm based in Israel.

I got back here three years ago, turned nine years in the US.

Oh, which part of the US were you in?

We lived in Colorado, and after that, we lived in North Dallas area in Texas.

Oh, okay, from the cold weather to the hot weather.

Yeah, very different places, but it's good.

I like experimenting different places, different people, different cultures, so it was good.

And it's going to be interesting because you are now going to compare the tech industry and the work culture here versus the one that you are in now.

This is going to be a good conversation.

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, so nice to meet you, everyone.

I'm Limor, and Roberto, you asked me about a title.

I prefer not to use titles, but really my focus is to help women in the tech industry to get to higher level positions and support them by giving them confidence and the tools they need in order to level up.

My background is tech.

I used to work in the tech industry, started my career as a software engineer and eventually went to leadership.

My last role was the director of engineering while I was in the US.

And when I got back here three years ago, I decided to change my career and become an independent consultant and mentor and coach.

I took coaching course and that's what I do today.

So I mainly coach and also help companies with creating or running mentorship programs because I have a lot of experience in mentorship and I created one program with PowerToFly and running different workshops for organizations, as you mentioned, leadership workshops.

I really enjoy the variety of things that they do.

Such a variety for sure.

Now, before we get into the midi part of this conversation, just in general, and we've had these conversations before, why is it that us women, despite being qualified, sometimes even being overqualified, why do we struggle with confidence when it comes to corporate settings?

That's a hard question to answer because there are probably multiple answers.

But in general, women feel less equal to others because many times they are a minority.

And I think in general, when you are a minority, you doubt yourself.

You feel like maybe I don't belong, maybe others are better than me.

And I think in general, just generalizing, women have less confidence, they are less ego-driven, and they allow themselves to dare less than men when applying to jobs, when asking for promotions, whatever.

I mean, I just had a coaching call today with an incredible woman that switched a job and was promised a specific role.

And after a year and a half at that role, she was not getting what she was promised.

And her manager is just not functioning very well.

And basically she's stuck.

And she feels uncomfortable kind of bypassing him and going to the manager above him just because she's afraid of being considered aggressive or dismissive of him or whatever.

And probably a man that would have been in her position would have done that much, much sooner.

In her defense, I feel like she's afraid of what could happen if she bypasses him.

Because you know the levels of hierarchy and reporting structures and companies.

But there is that bit of hypocrisy of if a man bypasses his boss, it's not frowned upon as much as it would be if it was a woman, no?

I think so, yes.

And also men feel more confident to do so.

And again, it doesn't have to be done in a disrespectful way.

And it can be done by informing the manager that she has to go to the level up.

And it happens, right?

It happens.

I've seen that a lot.

But I think that women in general, they're trying harder to satisfy, right?

To be cooperative, to not stir the ocean, to not be challenging.

And men would just say, well, I don't get what I want, so I'm just going to escalate.

We are afraid of being called the B-word.

I mean, Limor, you know how this goes.

And also, in that particular situation, if you look at also the bigger picture, we are also afraid to speak up during meetings.

There have been moments where we've been shut down.

You're probably the only woman in the meeting.

You are an executive, and you can share some experience in regard to that.

But you speak up, and then you get shut down, and then you decide going forward, I'm never going to speak up because I get shut down.

I definitely have been in situations like that for sure, and it's hard.

It hurts your confi-

I mean, no doubt about it, it's not pleasant.

I usually prefer to approach situations like that, not going headstrong with the person who is misbehaving in a meeting, inside the meeting.

I don't think that's the right thing to do, because you're seen as compative, as not cooperative, and it just hurts you more than it does you any good.

My approach would be to try to resolve it in an intimate setting with that person alone, but being very direct about what they have done and how you expect them to behave differently, and also to find allies that can be there for you.

If this is something that is repetitive, if you're in that environment that shuts you down, and usually those are specific individuals that maybe they're not doing that intentionally, maybe that's the way they are, I don't know, and they behave like that, find some allies who can speak up for you.

Because it will look much different if you're inside a meeting and someone is responding inappropriately to something you say, and then you have someone else in the meeting, a man, that will say, well, I would like to hear what she has to say, or we all have opinions, and every opinion matters or whatever.

Say something for your behalf, it will be much more effective than you try to defend yourself.

So the onus is on the leader to take control of the situation by making sure that every professional's voice is heard if you are being shut down.

Yeah.

And speaking of leaders, let's talk about mentorship in the tech industry.

So if you are a woman and you are new to the industry, give us some of the strategies in first selecting the right mentor for yourself and what it is that you should look out for.

Yes, I think mentorship is an important tool for everyone, not just women, and not just women in the beginning of their career, by the way.

I believe everyone should have the opportunity to have mentors, if they want to.

So I think that you need to ask yourself, what are my goals?

What kind of help do I need?

First of all, you need to know what you need.

Before you even go to look for mentors.

And it really varies.

Because if you need something very specific to your workplace, maybe you are struggling with something that you need someone to help you, but that someone should have the internal know-how of the company.

Whether it's the culture or some technical knowledge or what have you, then maybe you need to find someone within your company who can help you and support you.

If it's something more generic about communications or about industry standards or about different challenges like the one I shared today, about a woman who was having challenges with her manager, then you can figure out what's the better way to find someone internal or external.

External sometimes is better just because you don't want to expose things to others within the company.

If the organization is not big enough, you don't want to start kind of gossiping about another person.

It's much safer.

Yeah, if you talk with someone external, you can just say what you want and I don't know those people, so you can feel comfortable sharing that with me or with anyone else.

And then you need to ask yourself, OK, what kind of mentor do I want?

Do I want like an industry expert in my field or you don't care?

I just want someone who has some experiences.

For example, I took leadership.

It can be public speaking, can be negotiation, can be anything.

Do you really need someone who is an expert in your area?

We have, for example, in my case, managed group of engineers, because you have some challenges that are related to leading an engineering organization, and you prefer someone who has done that before.

Or maybe you have challenges that are, as I said, like leadership or stuff like that, that it doesn't really matter if the person managed specifically engineering or product or marketing or some other functions.

You just need experience of leadership, of managing, managing up and so forth.

And then you go to, what kind of mentor do I want?

Do I want a woman?

Do I want a man?

Or I don't care?

Is it important for me that this person will come from similar background as I am?

For example, in the program that I ran for PowerToFly, there are a lot of women of color who wanted a mentor that is a woman, a woman of color.

To relate to the problems.

To a woman in higher positions that is a woman of color.

Because women of color have specific challenges that maybe me as a white woman will not face.

So after you figure that out, what exactly you want or on some aspect you don't have like a strong preference, then where can you find those people?

It can be people in your surroundings, people you know, people you work with or you used to work with.

Maybe you don't know anyone and you can just reach out to different organizations that are supporting women.

In our case, there are many organizations like PowerToFly, but there are others too.

There are many mentorship programs.

Some of them are free, some of them are paid.

So you can just look up and find the right one for you.

Also, it depends on what kind of support you need.

You need something very, very specific, that you can just speak with someone for one or two sessions and you're done, like to solve a very specific problem.

Or is it something bigger, more long-term?

OK, ongoing.

Yeah, yeah.

I had a woman that had only one session with her and we just finalized everything she needed.

There was a specific dilemma she had about how to communicate her wish to be promoted, how to build a promotion plan for herself.

And we just discussed it for an hour and she was done.

She just had the tools she needed and she moved on and eventually was promoted.

So that's the only thing she needed.

But maybe someone needs more support, like building a confidence that takes time, you know, you cannot do it in one session, building some skills that maybe will take some practice.

And evolve for some time.

So you need to kind of figure out also the length.

And maybe you don't know, maybe you can try for a few sessions and then extend it if you need to.

So you need to have a clear understanding of what it is that you need.

If you don't know what you want, it's like shooting arrows in the dark.

You don't know what kind of help you need.

So when I started this podcast, I have a civil engineering background of about 15 years.

I started this podcast based on my experience, realizing that, hey, wait a minute, they don't promote the smartest engineer to leadership positions.

They promote those who can speak well, do presentations, have good relationships with clients.

Not necessarily the smartest engineering guy.

You spoke about public speaking earlier.

Would you like to talk about that?

Public speaking is a key skill that everyone should have.

And it doesn't mean that you need to be a TED speaker or to speak in conferences, be a keynote speaker or talk to thousands of people.

But this is so important, no matter what role you do, that you know how to present yourself, how to present your work.

It's very, very important.

And this is something you can learn, you can practice and you can become better.

And I also help people with that, also do workshops.

I also focus on that area because I feel it's very, very important.

As you mentioned, it's not always the smartest people that are promoted, but it's the people who know how to present themselves and the work that they do.

Because if it's hidden on your hard drive, what good is it going to do?

Exactly.

And then the next part of communication, which is when you are in a leadership position, you do less of the technical work, more of managing people.

So you're going to manage things like conflict and a diverse team that reports to you.

What are some of the things you can share with us when it comes to that?

Yeah, so I think that as a technical leader, and by the way, it varies in companies.

In some companies, they expect high level of technical know-how and even being involved in a lot of technical things.

Like, for example, I know in Amazon, senior managers and director are expected to be very hands-on.

And in some companies, less so.

It depends on the company.

But definitely a very important skill for a manager, and especially a manager for technical people, is to be able to work with different personalities.

And people that work in the tech field, a lot of time are very introverted, not the best communicators, and you need to know how to connect people together, how to resolve, as you said, how to resolve conflicts.

And conflicts happen when there are people from different backgrounds, from different cultures, they have seen different values, different opinions.

And I think those are the most important skills to be able to connect people together, to communicate, to manage up, and to be strategic.

This is one of the things as you grow up in the corporate ladder, is you need to become more and more strategic and less focusing on the day-to-day, on the execution, on the tactical stuff.

Right, so developing those communication skills is very important.

You spoke about networking earlier, which is also part of communication, when you were talking about how to find a mentor if you are new, how to network.

What are some of the things you can tell us on how to network effectively?

Because we have found that handing out business cards doesn't always work.

Find communities that you can relate with and help others go to different meetups or events that they do and start getting to know people without asking for anything in return immediately or even offer help.

Just try to connect.

And then what about online networking?

Is that effective at all?

Are you just annoying strangers when you reach out to them?

I think it's effective when it's done in the right setup.

If you just go on LinkedIn and reach out, and it happens to me a lot, probably also to you, that you get an invite for someone on LinkedIn that reach out to you.

And I usually accept invites.

And then immediately after you accept it, they send you a message and they want to either sell you something or offer their services, what have you.

And there is nothing more annoying than that.

I have two types.

I have about five to eight in a week.

They want to promote my podcast or you do such great work.

Have you thought about putting all this stuff to an online course?

We can help you.

And 95% of the messages I receive from you connections.

Yeah, sorry, carry on.

Yes, yes.

So usually they want something out of you right out of the gate and it will turn you off.

At least it turns me off, right?

I mean, what do you want from me?

I don't know you.

You reach out, I accept it to connect with you and now you're asking me to buy something from you or to use your services or whatever.

Get away.

I don't want that.

Most people don't like to be sold in that kind of way.

So I think you need to find the right communities and there are many communities, especially for women.

Look for women communities and join them.

There are a lot of communities that either they have a Slack group or they do virtual meetups and so forth and just be there.

People ask for help or want some advice.

So just be present, support others and that's how you get to know people.

So that by the time you sell something, at least you've developed those relationships first.

You didn't come with the, I want to sell you something right now.

Yeah, I really believe in relationship building.

That's right.

And we were mentioning the diverse work culture.

What about diversity gets such pushback from companies?

And I think in order to play devil's advocate a little bit, don't you think it's a little easier if I just work with someone from my country, my culture, my server.

We just focus on the work.

I don't have to deal with explaining some things to you.

You don't understand.

Like I'm in the US.

I'm from South Africa.

So if I was in corporate America, oh, now we have to explain to her how we do it here versus in South Africa.

Isn't it just a little easier to be the same?

It's actually much easier, but you lose a lot of stuff.

So when you have diverse team, you get diverse opinions, you get different perspective, and it helps you be better.

Actually, diversity, there are some researches done on that, how it helps companies make more money and perform better because they get a variety of opinions.

And that's the natural tendency of humanity, right, to try to connect with people that are like them.

So people bring other people that are like them, so they get the same opinions.

That's why it's easier, right?

No one challenges them, everyone agrees, but then no one is bringing a different perspective.

And maybe what if everyone are wrong?

Or what if that perspective only caters to a very small market and things have changed, things have changed, and you still have that similar opinion from last year?

Exactly, exactly.

So you evolve, you grow, you excel when you have different people.

And when I was managing teams, I was trying to get different perspectives, to get different people.

And I like that people sometimes even argued, but as long as it's done respectfully, it's okay.

It's okay to have a discussion sometimes a little bit heated, but that's where people bring different perspectives.

And it's good for the whole organization.

It's good.

Yeah, it's a good thing.

As long as some decisions are being made and you're able to make progress, obviously.

For sure, for sure.

You sometimes give speeches in high schools, and we always ask ourselves, why is it that high schools and colleges and universities don't emphasize the skill of public speaking?

Why is it not even part of the subjects?

Like you do your social studies and your science and your math and then public speaking?

That's a good question.

So I think that the school system, at least here in Israel, I mean, it hasn't evolved much over the years.

It hasn't changed much.

So it remained very similar.

At least I see it on my kids in Israel.

It remained very similar to when I went to school.

It's been like, for example, like over 30 years.

I'm not saying it's not important to learn math and English and other skills, but it hasn't evolved.

It hasn't changed.

It's very stagnated, but the world has changed.

The world is not the same.

And kids don't get any real life experiences in education, financial education, and as you said, public speaking.

Yes, even my brother, I'm 46, so my brother finished high school not too long ago.

He studied the exams and don't they add things like meditate and look within?

Because we used to say, oh, I wish I learned this when I was in school.

But now they know it and they still don't incorporate it into the curriculum.

Because it's easier just to do what they did last year, what is already there.

It's harder to change that.

And also those, the school system, sometimes a lot of bureaucracy and it's harder to change.

And it's unfortunate.

That is unfortunate because the information is there.

And then the last thing I wanted us to talk about.

So we've spoken about women having confidence.

Can you just tell us how we can, even while being home, is there a habit we can cultivate on a daily basis just to increase our confidence a little bit?

So that when we enter those professional settings, we can incorporate the things you've mentioned and be strategic about it.

But I just feel like there's some work we can do at least to increase our level of confidence.

I think that one of the things we tend to ignore is what we have achieved.

We always look forward, right?

Oh, I haven't done this, I haven't done this.

Those are the goals I have.

Those are the things I need to do.

I haven't been able to accomplish everything I wanted, but what about what we already accomplished?

So first of all, celebrate successes, even small, small steps forward.

Look and appreciate what you've already done.

Get support from your environment.

Ask for people to help you realize what good things you have, how you are already amazing, what are the things that you do very well.

It's one of the things, the first things I do with people I coach, I ask them to write their strength and also ask for feedback.

Depending where they're at, I mean, I may ask them to only list strengths or sometimes to list also areas that they would like to improve.

It depends on what's the starting point, right?

That I want to help them, right?

Progressing at their own pace and surrounding yourself with people who help you, who help you feel better with yourself and lift you up and not people who constantly complain, suck your energy, bring you down.

Energy vampires.

Energy vampires, exactly.

Try to stay away from them as much as you can, right?

Sometimes those vampires are actually in your home, but try as much as possible to surround yourself with people that inspire you, that you want to become more like them.

They're always positive, that brings positive energy.

Always try to take one small step forward.

Try to do something a little bit uncomfortable.

Challenge yourself.

Because when you accomplish that, no matter how small it is, it gives you a little more confidence.

Yes, I can do it.

What I like to do is to commit to something I haven't done.

So let's say, for example, when I started, you know, running a mentorship workshop.

So I committed to doing that.

I knew that I could.

I never done this before.

Then I said, OK, I'll do it.

So first I commit.

And then I think about, OK, how am I going to do it?

And I find a way and I do it.

And I said, I can do it.

I'm actually pretty good.

I'll do it again.

What works for me is I try to commit before I actually have all the answers.

First, I commit to something that I feel like I can do, but I'm not sure exactly how.

You'll find the how because you've made the commitment.

You will do it.

You have the commitment.

You find the how.

Yeah.

If not new, you'll find someone who can help you.

And the information is all out there.

I mean, we live at an age where YouTube has a whole lecture.

There is no shortage of information.

That's for sure.

My kids a lot of times surprise me with things they know.

And I said, how do you know all those things?

And say, yeah, YouTube.

YouTube.

Just go to YouTube and they get so much information.

And then what would you say to leaders who have women in their teams in order to make them feel included, make them feel like they can speak up without any fears?

Support them.

Be their advocate.

Make sure that if they are unacceptable behaviors, you shut those people down and tell them it's unacceptable.

Be their, you know, their biggest supporter, but also give them feedback.

Help them grow.

You know, one of the things that always drove me nuts is when I had managers who were afraid to give me constructive feedback that always told me, oh, you're great.

You're great.

Great is not a feedback.

I don't even know what that is.

Yeah, I don't know what is great.

Tell me what I'm good at.

Be specific and also tell me what I need to be better, to improve.

Don't be afraid.

Sometimes they feel, oh, I'm afraid to hurt her feelings.

We're not so fragile as you may think.

And we know how to behave ourselves in professional settings.

That's one.

And I've heard of ones where when they give constructive feedback, you know, room for improvement, they say, oh, Limor, you could be a little more confident.

If your manager said that to you and you walk out of his office, would you know exactly what to do next with that?

No, I would probably ask him, what does it mean?

How do you know when I have more confidence?

How does it look?

What kind of things will you see for me that are different from what you see right now?

So obviously now, when I'm doing so many hours of mentoring and coaching, I will know how to get more data from them.

I would ask them, okay, what does it mean?

I have more confidence.

What will I do differently?

How will you know that I'm more confident?

Again, specifics.

Yeah, be specific.

You know, maybe you will say, well, you sounded hesitant in the meaning today.

When you present your ideas, say them in a tone of voice that sounds more confident.

When you speak, your voice is very low.

It's hard to hear you.

You look down.

You don't keep an eye contact.

Give me some specifics that I will know.

Okay, what do you see right now?

And what does confident mean to you?

What does it mean?

By the way, being confident may be different to a person.

Yeah.

And then speaking of presentations, we always say, especially for the tech industry, you know, you got data, you got statistics, you got graphs, and you have the programs.

What are the best practices when it comes to what you put on slides if you're making a presentation and saying, okay, we think this software is best for Amazon to buy because this is what it does?

I don't have one answer.

It really depends on the goal of your presentation and on the audience.

And you need to adjust your presentation to the audience.

If you need to convince someone to do something and they don't like details, they just want a bottom line.

They are very impatient.

They don't have a lot of time.

Their attention span is very short.

Then you need to put something, maybe visual, the bottom line, some numbers.

But some people like the details.

Some people want to dive deep.

It really depends.

It's hard to say.

Presentation needs to be adjusted to the audience.

The most important thing is first the audience.

Second is what is your goal?

What are you trying to get out of this presentation?

Once you have the answer to both questions, you will know what you need to do.

Because a lot of times people, okay, they know the audience, but they are not clear to themselves about what am I trying to...

I had a situation where people created presentations and there was no bottom line.

Let's say you wanted to convince me to approve a project.

I had a person that took me to review his presentation, to give him feedback, to coach him on his presentation, to a senior leader that he wanted to convince that leader to give him the green light to continue working on that project.

But he presented a lot of technical details, which this person didn't necessarily care about.

So we adjusted that to include less technical detail, more high level, some diagrams, and also to have a bottom line.

Okay, this is what I need.

I need to work on this for extra whatever time, and I need your approval.

I need your okay to know that you're okay with it.

So what are you trying to get out of it?

And many times people don't end the presentation.

They just leave it out open.

And so the person they're presenting to, are they supposed to come to their own conclusions of the purpose of the presentation?

They need to know what they're trying to get out of it.

So it could be to convince someone to do something.

It could be to make a decision, right?

Not themselves.

Maybe they need to have a discussion, and eventually they would like everyone to get a decision and agree on something, and agree on a course of action.

It could be that they just want to brainstorm and get as many ideas as they can.

It could be just information sharing, and they want people to understand what is the status, where people are at as a specific project.

It depends on the situation.

The purpose of why the presentation and the course is.

Yeah, so if you're trying to share information, then a good conclusion to your presentation would be summarizing the high-level things that you already mentioned.

Just repeating, okay, we covered XYZ.

If you're trying to get buying to something or get support to get approval, then you'd say, okay, I presented all of that.

And now the next steps are, and I need your approval.

I need X budget.

I need whatever headcount.

Just tell them what you need from them.

They may say no, or they may say, I need to think about it or whatever.

And if they say no, why?

If they say, I need to think about it, you can ask them, okay, what do you need in order to get it to a decision?

Is there anything else I can provide to help you make a decision?

And they may say no, we gave us everything we need, we just need some time to discuss it and think about it.

Or they may say, you know, I'm missing some details.

So I need to think about it.

Doesn't always mean that this is a soft punch to we're not going to do this with you.

No, not always.

I mean, sometimes it's really, I mean, because a lot of times what happens, we make a lot of work, right?

We spend a lot of time before the presentation.

So we have all the things in our head.

But the other side, a lot of what we told them is new.

And they need time.

They need time to absorb the information we gave them and to think about it.

That's okay.

It doesn't mean that it's a no.

So hence asking questions after they've given you that feedback.

Limor, please give us some last words of wisdom for women in tech on how to navigate the challenges they face in their professional careers.

Find people to support you, whether it's mentors, colleagues, sponsors.

Find people.

Don't be there by yourself.

Get help.

Words of wisdom from Limor Bergman Gross, our expert in helping women in tech find and navigate their way to their next careers.

She has been in tech for over two decades, and she is on a mission to help women in that regard.

Thank you very much for being here today.

Thank you, Roberta, for having me.

It's been a pleasure speaking with you today.

I enjoyed it as well.

And before you go, please tell us where to find you on social media.

LinkedIn is probably the best.

We are most active.

Just look me up.

Limor Bergman.

You'll find me.

That's probably the best.

Limor Bergman.

Thank you very much for being on our show today.

Don't forget to subscribe, give a rating and a review.

My pleasure.

Thank you, Limor.

Thank you.