Speaking and Communicating Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Speaking and Communicating podcast. My name is Roberta and today we are joined by a very special guest. His name is Dr. Kevin Payne. He is a social psychologist, an entrepreneur, author and listen to this, a skydiver. And before we carry on and hear more about his exciting life and the work that he does,
00:30
I'm gonna give Dr. Fain an opportunity to introduce himself. Hi, Kevin. Well, thank you so much, Roberta, for that kind introduction. There are probably three quick things that I should develop from what you said. So one, my doctorates in sociology and psychology, I spent 15 years as a professor and I left the academy a decade ago to be a tech entrepreneur. And what I do now is take
01:00
that knowledge and combine it with my own experience with chronic illness, both as diagnosed and as a caregiver, to provide social and behavioral scientific tools that help all of us cope better with a health condition that we're not gonna be able to get away from. Okay, so you're talking about chronic illness, can you elaborate what is it that you had to face?
01:30
Well, in the technical sense, a chronic illness is any health condition lasting more than three months. In my case, it's multiple sclerosis. OK, and like half of all Americans, I live with a chronic health diagnosis. Eighteen percent of us now have five or more of these things in a person. Yeah, in one person, 18 percent have five or more chronic health diagnoses.
01:58
So for those who don't know, multiple sclerosis is an autoimmune condition and it's a neurodegenerative condition. So my immune system is attacking the myelin, yeah, which is the fatty sheath around the neurons in my brain and spinal cord. So the symptoms that we experience can be almost anything because everything we do, feel, think, say goes through our brain and our spinal cord.
02:26
So depending on where the damage is, that's what happens. So I have issues with my legs, for example, I can't feel my legs below my knees and they get a little wonky. I have issues with balance and vertigo, but I also have cognitive fog that I have to think through. I have chronic fatigue, I have chronic pain, and I have a laundry list of 30 other symptoms that come and go.
02:56
Uh, sometimes without notice. Uh huh. Yeah. Just from the multiple sclerosis. So, so how do we, if you have all of those, I want to link the skydiver part. Cause that for me was the most interesting one. Cause it's physically demanding and everything that you have listed is physically taxing on you. So explain to us the link between the two.
03:26
So for me, I hit rock bottom. I mean, I had some really awful exacerbations to my EMS. My career was in shambles. My family decided that this wasn't a journey they could continue with me. And I was alone. My dog even died, traumatic in front of me. I mean, it was, yeah, it was really awful. So I didn't see a way forward at that time. And I thought I'm gonna give myself one more chance.
03:56
And for me, that chance was skydiving. I wanted to reclaim something that I had cared about. So for me, skydiving was a childhood dream. As a little kid in the seventies, I decided I wanted to be a skydiver. In the nineties, as a young man, when I was working on my doctorate, I started the training. And so I did the training, I got a handful of jumps in, but then career, family, and eventually health got in the way.
04:26
So one thing that- How do you not let those challenges prevent you from continuing with your dream of skydiving? Because I feel a lot of us, as soon as something happens, we get rattled and we think, okay, that'll have to wait, or I don't think this is possible anymore because of what is in front of me. And that's what I did. That's what I did to begin with. And so I had a 20 year break in there.
04:56
And there's actually something in skydiving. You can get what's called an SRA number, Skydiver Resurrection Award number. If you've been a skydiver and then you have a break of at least 20 years. So I've got my SRA number. Oh, it's resurrection, okay. Yeah, exactly. And so, too often, chronic illness can become this process.
05:24
of a long, slow, sad slide of saying goodbye to the things we loved about our lives. And I needed to get a win. I needed to reclaim something that I didn't know whether I was gonna be able to do. I needed to challenge myself in a new way. I needed to become humble in the world again and reclaim a beginner's mindset.
05:51
because my illness had knocked me so far down that, you know, we all carry around an image in our heads that for the most part is maybe stuck in the past or maybe focused on our most positive qualities. And sometimes- What are the expectations we think we're supposed to live by?
06:21
And sometimes when life has has knocked you so far down, if you want to really grow, you have to begin by acknowledging where you truly are right now. Because you can't chart a path forward until you understand where you're starting. Where you're starting from. Yeah. And so for me,
06:49
I said, I want to go back and reclaim this childhood dream. And the other part of it was, I had become so afraid of my own body. The thing that I feared most. Yeah, well, and no, it wasn't the diagnosis per se, because for years I handled it pretty well, but it was the practical on the ground experiences of.
07:16
You know, you have an exacerbation enough times where you end up paralyzed on the floor. Right. Or, you know, you cannot think your way through a problem that you've done a thousand times before, then you feel betrayed by your own body. And you begin to be afraid of it and afraid of testing it. And so that's where I'd gotten.
07:46
in my life. Right. And that wasn't a life I was interested in living because I had always historically been a person who said yes to new opportunities that had come along. And experiences and adventures. Exactly. Are you familiar with Dr. Joe Dispenza? You know, I've heard the name, but I don't know him. Oh, okay. So he, in a nutshell, had a, I think it was a spinal cord injury as well.
08:16
and he rebuilt it. So that's what he does in his retreats, the meditations. So I'm very interested to how, when you started again, what is it that you told yourself? What tools did you use in order to rebuild and to say to yourself, even though my body physically feels like it cannot take me back to skydiving, I'm going to do it. I believe that I still can do it. Right, so in 2019, I went back and...
08:44
At first, I didn't tell anybody the drop zone or drop zone is a place where people skydive. I didn't tell them that I had MS. Because I was afraid that if they knew that, they would say, this is not for you, go try Bolin. It turned out I would have been right. I was right. I found out later.
09:09
I had to, you know, I started with the training again and went up and started doing the student jumps and and how was it? What are you feeling while doing that? Yeah. So, so think about it this way. I always have pain. I'm, you know, the best I am is tired. I do everything I can to like get a good night's sleep and all those things. But I start out tired and I end up the day medically fatigued. Right. And that's, that's just part of it.
09:38
Um, and I always have parathesias, which are phantom feelings that are not actually there. And I have, yeah. So like I always itch and, and I have the feeling of random electric shocks through my body. And of course I have numbness. And for me, the most pronounced numbness is I typically don't feel my legs below my knees.
10:07
That becomes important with skydiving. So I know that scared you enough to keep you away from your childhood dream. No, because I know that I'm adaptive and that humans are marvelously adaptive. And humans are marvelously adaptive. And so I'd had 13 jumps before I came back.
10:36
So I had enough experience that I knew what I was gonna be in for. Right. And I was pretty confident that there was going to be some way for me to adapt and get creative and be able to do this. So we need to remember that we can adapt. Exactly, exactly. And so we do the ground training. Now there's something that's really interesting that happens.
11:04
your first couple of student jumps when you're skydiving. And now you're going out on what are called AFF jumps. This is after, some people do tandem jumps. Most people do tandem jumps now to start. That's not the way we did it in the nineties. So a tandem jump is where you are a passenger, you're attached to an experienced skydiver. And they, you know, they're doing the work and you get to ride along and have a good time. I've seen those, yes. Yeah.
11:34
So, so, uh, you know, I, I'd never done that. And, and, and, because we didn't do those back in the nineties, that wasn't common. But, but coming back in 2019, I'm up there and you do your first couple of jumps, your first few jumps with two instructors and they're not attached to you, but they hang on to you on either side. That on TV. That's right. Yeah. So, so they go out. Now the problem is of course you can get separated.
12:04
and you are still responsible for deploying your own parachute and landing yourself on the ground. So there's something that happens typically with your first jump back. So they fling the door open and now the wind and the light and everything just kind of come into the cockpit and it all becomes very crazy really quickly. And one of your instructors
12:31
will lean into you very close and shout at you, because you got to be heard over the wind, who's responsible for your life? Obviously, yourself. And you have to answer enthusiastically, affirmatively, I am. That's right. Because if you don't, you're not going. Okay, fair enough. So, so. Yeah.
12:59
So, you know, we go out, we do our first few jumps and I'm going through, but my progress is slow and I'm having leg issues as I'm doing this. And after one of my jumps, it was, I don't know maybe 15, 16, 17 after I came back. So I've got one instructor and we do our debrief afterward on the ground. And she comes in and you can remember
13:29
She's got thousands of jumps, lots of experience. When she comes in and she sits down across from me and she says, that was the most terrifying skydive I have ever experienced. What's going on with your legs? Oh. So. And you, when you first had that, what went through your mind? What was your response? My response was, well, I guess I'm gonna have to tell them now.
13:57
So even hearing from someone that expert in the skydiving world, you still were not deterred and thought to yourself, oh, I'm really putting my life at risk here with this chronic illness. Right, because, and here's the important thing, and this is why I was allowed to continue. The important thing was no matter how difficult I was having, you know, with these issues controlling my legs, every time I still...
14:25
managed to get stable and stay altitude aware and deploy my parachute on time. And so those are the minimum things you have to do to have a safe skydive. So even at my worst, I was still safe. Walk us through that in terms of us who are grounded on earth and we face our fears differently.
14:53
we have different challenges, not similar to yours, but when you say you were still able to do all that, how do we put that in practical terms for us on the ground? Well, in practical terms, there are...
15:16
There are certain minimum things that you need to do to get through the experience. And in this case, the experience of having a safe skydive. Right. Because the goal of every skydive is to be able to do another skydive, which means you go on a safe flight. Land in one piece. Exactly. Yeah. And so the first part of the skydive is in free fall. And then...
15:45
everybody, you know, if you're jumping with other people, then you separate off and you deploy your parachutes. So, and then you have to do that at a certain altitude. That's right. So student jumps, you tend to pull pretty high, 5,000, 6,000 feet. And, and after we are licensed and experienced and there are four licenses in skydiving, you get the
16:12
The first one, the A license usually comes after 25 jumps. But okay, what I wanna get at is what do you say to yourself? Cause I wanna get to the part of the inner dialogue. You know, we may not be skydivers, but we face our own fears and what we think our limitations are we may not have MS, but I have my own limitations, at least in my head of what I think I'm capable and not capable of.
16:42
What is it that you tell yourself in order to continue to do this despite everything that you face?
16:51
I think you're saying this was not my point of challenge in my particular journey. This was not the challenge for me. The challenge for me was...
17:13
figuring out it was an informational challenge because for me, I never doubted that I could do it. What I doubted was how can, and what I struggled with was how could I pick up on the right signals that the world is sending me so that I can make the best decisions in that circumstance? So-
17:41
doubt your capabilities. And if you had all the information, like what I say, have all the information to make the right to make an informed decision. So you felt like the only thing that could be missing was all the information in order to make an informed decision. Right. Because for me, when you're skydiving, your legs are an important source of information.
18:09
and you've, and this feeling that you're getting from your legs, because you're trying to keep yourself balanced and, and in control. Well, I don't get those signals. So I had this, so even though in the legs, yeah. Right. Even though on, on that skydive, for example, she thought it was terrifying. It wasn't terrifying for me because even though I was spinning all over the place in my own head, the experience that I was having was,
18:39
I'm trying to figure out where I can get reliable signals at my knees. So what I learned was I can still feel at my knees. And so I was, I was there trying to figure out how can I learn from the signals my tendons are giving me by their tension on the back of my knees to help me interpolate what's going on with the rest of my legs.
19:08
Right. And so once I did that, once I learned how to interpret the signals at my knees, in the back of my knees, then I understood what was going on with the rest of my legs. So for me, it was about being creative and figuring out, OK, life isn't giving me these typical signals, right? I need to figure out an alternate source of information that I can use.
19:37
Okay, let's review that. So be creative when life doesn't give you the best circumstances. Okay. And find as much information, be resourceful with finding the information that will help you make an informed decision. Exactly. Instead of what we usually do, which is just jumping into, oh, I don't think I can do this. Bye bye. Yeah, exactly. Because
20:07
too often we are fear response trips. Yeah. And sometimes it's called a fight or flight response. And really there's a lot more to it than that. It's really more like freeze front flight, fight, fawn, flock, fright, faint. That's a whole lot of F's. Say that slowly. Yeah, I call it the F it response. Okay. And I get into this in chapter three of my book, but it's freeze, front, flight, fight.
20:37
Fawn, flock, fright, faint. That's eight Fs, okay. Yeah, that's eight Fs. And you can add another one or two in there if you want. Right. But the point is, all of them are about getting distance or apparent distance between you and the thing that you think is a threat. Of afraid of, mm-hmm. Uh-huh. But here's the important thing.
21:06
That response is not a fear response. We are completely wrong in what that's doing. What that's doing, it's physiological arousal. And it's the same response we get when we're excited. So when you are excited and successful, it's the same thing. So it's a challenge response. And sometimes we frame it as fear. If we believe...
21:35
that the outcome is going to be negative or if we believe that we are completely uncertain about what can happen. If we think it's going to succeed, it's excitement. Right, right. It's interesting you say that, we always say that in public speaking, just before you start, just before they call you on stage, you think, oh, I'm nervous because you feel all this heart pounding, your nerves tingling, everything.
22:05
You only say, but it's actually excitement. It's the same feeling. If you tell yourself, I'm excited, I'm about to speak. You respond differently to this must be the nerves. My heart is pounding. Oh, it must be because I'm scared. I'm nervous. Then it's going to be a whole different system in your brain that works. So tell yourself you're excited instead of nervous. You have to reframe the story and.
22:34
And really the only way you can successfully do that is through experience. So it's by feeling the excitement and saying, no, that's not fear, it's excitement and doing it anyway, and then succeeding. Feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, and this, there is, chapter four of my book is called The Edge, and it's about how to reframe these kinds of experiences.
23:04
And so I'll give you a primary example for me from skydiving. And that is- And just for the benefit of the listeners, we keep talking about the book. Before the end of the show, you will share with us all the information pertaining to the book, the title, where it was painted, et cetera. Okay. Yeah, the book and the seminars and all that stuff. So if people are watching this, they see behind me, it's a picture from the cover of my book. And they're listening.
23:31
then it's me on a beautiful evening with beautiful clouds and sunrise, and I'm there in street clothes. And I don't have a helmet on or anything so that you can see it's really me. And I look like just a normal person who has been dropped into an extraordinary circumstance. And that's what we feel like when we get a chronic health diagnosis.
23:59
or when we are facing something really negative that we can't get away from. And that's the important part I wanna emphasize, we can't get away from. Because all of that acute stress response that we talked about earlier is about you trying to find distance between you and the thing that you find scary or challenging. So you mean if I keep running away from my problems, it's not gonna help anything? Yeah, go figure.
24:28
And certainly for me and the thing that I was most scared of, my own body, I can't get away from. No. So you must figure out a way to accommodate this scary thing and reframe this scary thing. So in that picture, I'm at 5,000 feet when that picture was taken. Okay. And I'm headed toward the earth.
24:56
at 120 miles an hour. What that means in practical terms is if I do nothing at this point, my life expectancy is 27 seconds.
25:11
I will literally die in 27 seconds. Yeah, because I will impact the earth and the earth will win. Gravity. Yeah, gravity, it's the law, go figure. So I've got my hands up to my head, up to my forehead, and I'm about to sweep them out in a broad gesture. And that's something that every skydiver will recognize. And I explained it in the prologue, it's called the way ball.
25:39
Okay. And the wave off is the point in the sky dive where we've decided we're going to end the freefall portion. And I am now warning everybody else in my airspace that I'm going to actively choose life. I am going to save myself by deploying my parachute. So I wave off and I deploy. Okay. And what I want people to understand is
26:09
no matter how dire things seem. First of all, you're going to have to save yourself. Because that's with you. If it if it's up to you, no one's coming. Nobody else is going to do it. No, and literally in a skydive, nobody's coming to save me. I must save myself. And so I am choosing life. And I'm deploying my parachute.
26:39
even under extreme circumstances. So I want people to understand that they may feel like their life is in free fall with a chronic diagnosis. And they may feel that there is nothing good, but when you pick up the book, when you go to one of our seminars, when you do this stuff that your life lived well does, then you are actively choosing life and humans when we're crafting our own story.
27:08
You know, humans are narrative creatures. And I think that is the most human thing that we do. We build stories. Yeah. And stories are pre-rational. They are older than our rational brains. They have been with us for forever. But how do we craft one that benefits us and doesn't paralyze us, so to speak? Because I think, especially when the circumstances look dire, remember earlier you said, be creative.
27:37
That's not the first thing that comes in your mind, to be creative. Right. So let's go back to that acute stress response, that freeze, front, flight, flight. That first stage is freeze. And what that is, is called hypervigilance, okay? In the technical sense. And hypervigilance, our senses get really aware and we pause. And- The first pause.
28:07
Yeah, it's that first pause. And what we have to do first is learn to recognize that pause and extend it just a little bit. Because that's where you can insert your forebrain, your rational thinking. Instead of, because usually we pause for a second and then we panic.
28:36
And then we panic and then we go start going down that list of all those other F's and none of those are rational. None of those are seeing the big picture. So when you practice recognizing the pause, that is an opportunity for you to insert your higher thinking and more important, your agency.
29:04
your active choice. And if you want to rebuild your own story, yes, you rebuild your own story by exerting choice. Not just responding to the reactants, exactly reacting because what is there? Exactly. Yourself. Yeah, you allow yourself to to continue cascading down.
29:33
those F responses, you're not acting, you are reacting. Reacting. And you are short-circuiting your higher brain. So in that pause, we've got to learn to practice, oh, okay, I recognize it now. And now this is an opportunity for me to assert my agency, my selfhood, my action, my choice, by
30:03
actively choosing life and choosing the direction of my own story. And you may be right, you may be wrong. Yes. But now you're starting to build a better identity because it's an identity you're choosing. And that's something you can learn from. And that's something you can build on. So you build by choosing and by acting.
30:29
actively choosing instead of just reactive. The reaction sounds to me like just reacting is not building. You just- No, it's not. Putting band-aids on everything just temporarily. Exactly, because it doesn't build your own story. It doesn't build your identity. It teaches you that you are a reactive person without control in your own life. That's what you're learning. Not an ideal, not an ideal at all. Yeah.
30:59
No. So living life in emergency mode. So let's have three practical tools, three tips you can share with us starting today. What we can do when we're with fear, sorry, the circumstances and how to actively choose like you just explained to us and showing up for ourselves and realizing that we are here to save ourselves. Nobody's coming to save us.
31:28
What are three things that we can start actively doing today? Okay, so the first one, I will re-emphasize recognizing and practicing the pause. So when you start feeling those physiological signs of arousal, okay? You've got a choice at this point to frame it as fear or as excitement. And the only way you can do that is by inserting,
31:58
pausing to allow your forebrain to catch up with what's going on in your basal brain. That is, you know, pushing you forward. It's urging you. It becomes really insistent. And it's saying, do something now, now, now, now, now. And you've got to say, whoa, yeah, wait a minute. You know, 99 percent of the challenges we face in our modern world are not a saber toothed tiger in the underbrush. That's going to eat us.
32:27
Even though we think they are, but okay. Even though we think they are, because that's the only way that our basal brain can frame this. So practice the pause and use it to insert yourself into the process and not get carried away. The second thing is be kinder to yourself. Oh, that's a big one. Be kinder to yourself. Yes. I always have a question when it comes to this.
32:57
How is it that if a best friend is having a problem, we can say the kindest, most caring things, be there for them. But when we are faced with something, that's not the first thing we do to ourselves. Yeah, and that's a really important point. And what I would say is that in our culture now, we've become, especially in the last couple of decades, much more aware.
33:26
of what it takes to have good relationships with other people. Yes. And there's a lot more information out there than public discourse. But what I would say as a social and behavioral scientist who's done this for 30 years, what I would say is everything that you know about building a good relationship with other people also applies to building a good relationship with yourself. Okay.
33:55
So think about this. Why are we hard on ourselves? Is it a perfection thing or thinking if I punish myself, it's gonna force me to do, but what is this that we do? Oh, wow. Okay, so this is like a deep topic in chapter two. And what it is, really short here, is that we are not a unified self. Identity is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves.
34:22
And it's us trying to make sense of what I call a society of mind. So our society of mind is lots and lots and lots of little characters in there. And they're not fully formed identities, but they each are little brain systems that are bent on making one particular kind of decision. And some of them are cave children. And those are the ones that are
34:51
running the fear response. And they are really loud and they have a really constricted view of the world. And they operate really fast and everything is really urgent for them. Yes, yeah. And they need to be heard because in their view and literally they can't see anything else. You've got to engage your central executive. Wonder what's here now. Yeah.
35:19
Exactly, they're concrete, they're right here right now, and that's fine, they had their place, but they can't be driving all the time. No. And what we have to understand is that there are other characters in here, maybe that we've learned as little children that are some of our earliest ways of seeing the world. And as we mature, as we grow up, these characters inside of us,
35:48
don't mature. They stay frozen where they were when they were formed. What matures is like we can look at maturation like adding layers to the onion. So how do we go back to them?
36:19
Yeah, I'm an enthusiastic meditator. It's been part of my life for decades. Right. And I start every day with meditation and I return to it periodically throughout the day and I do what I call mindful minutes. So I just check out for a moment and do six deep breaths and practice awareness and gratitude and then go on with my life.
36:49
And because I feel like that when you were saying instead of panicking pause, so that the wiser mind comes to the forefront. It's not going to do that if this one is always constantly creating. What you do. Yeah, well, it's okay. So here's the thing. You can't force it to be quiet.
37:19
My kids are grown up now, but when they were little, when you tried to forcefully shush them. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. And that's in that way, it doesn't work with our cave children in our own mind right now. You have to acknowledge them. You have to say, yes, I hear you. I appreciate what you're saying.
37:44
But now I'm gonna take some other views. I'm gonna take some other views into account and we're gonna do this thing anyway. And you hang on with me and trust me and we're gonna succeed. And then you're gonna learn that we can actually do this thing. What a beautiful inner dialogue, wow. Yeah. And we should be something we do every day, yeah. Yeah, because you're not disrespecting it because that's a part of you that is.
38:12
that is honestly within the best of its capacity, trying to protect you. Be there for you, that's right. So it does serve its job, it's just that there are times when it needs to pause and you call on a different voice. Exactly. And so you can't get down on it for trying to do this important job. You have to say, yes, thank you.
38:40
and we're going to try this. And I think we're gonna succeed. We may not, but I think we're gonna succeed. So hang on and let's learn from it. Do you think that self-development and motivational speakers, the self-development experts, do you feel like that's sometimes part of the missing link in pushing people to be the best they can because then-
39:08
You either have people, you'll have a certain percentage that succeeds and does that. And then you have just the average person struggling because they either become too hard on themselves when they feel like I'm not doing this thing that this expert said I must do, I'm not effective in it. It's not working. Do you feel like there's that element that's missing?
39:38
a wildly ambivalent attitude toward self-help and motivational speaking. And imagine my surprise when I came to the point in my life where I felt like I had to somehow bring my science-based perspective into that arena. Into it, that's right. Right? Because quite frankly, a lot of it is fluffy, smurry BS. And it is.
40:08
And, and what's important to me, and this is where I was consciously very different. I'm not a guru. I'm not a leader. I'm not any of that stuff. I am a guy with multiple sclerosis who is trying to do the best I can out of my own life and who happens to have spent the last 30 years of my life studying people and teaching people, and I'm trying to marry those two together.
40:37
to help people not by providing one way. Right. Because that's what the majority of the population is facing and can relate to. So that's what we wanna know. That's what our inner cave children want because they see the world in that really oversimplified way. But the problem is if you jump on the next one way,
41:06
It may work for a little bit, but then it's going to fail. In the long term, it will fail. It will always fail. And so you internalize the message that something is wrong with you because it failed for you. When 5% of the people that were at the same seminar were able to succeed. So what is wrong with me? Yes, exactly. And that is the wrong, and it's nothing wrong with you because here's the thing.
41:34
If you look at the research, there are 150 ways to change your behavior. All of them work for someone. Only some of them will work for you. So they are the work for you. Don't compare yourself to another person. Exactly. And understand that what works for you now. May not next week. Not may not, will not work for you in six months or six years.
42:03
because you're going to change and your goals are going to change, your environment changes. So what I'm interested in with my book and my seminars and what I'm doing is I want to show you how to make better decisions about how to make these choices for yourself. Because when you are properly educated, you are the person who can save yourself, but you need to understand
42:33
for a person like me in my circumstances, what is the most likely thing that I can do? And how can I recognize if that's being successful? And if not, what's the next thing that I try? So that it's not this haphazard, random- It becomes too abstract and something as I said earlier, practical tools, things that people can actually do on a daily basis. So before we wrap up, let's just summarize.
43:03
We need to pause when circumstances are dire, be adaptable. We mentioned this earlier, but let's come back to it. Be adaptable because humans are adaptable. What will work for you now will not work in the future. So be adaptable and most importantly, respect and love the survival instinct that has the narrow vision, but there's a place and a time for it. Yeah, be kind.
43:32
Be kind. And not just be kind to yourself, be kind to your future self. Because your future self is the one who's going to have to live with the consequences of the bonehead decisions you make today. That's right. And be an agent, actively choose instead of reacting. Thank you so much, Dr. Pinn. But before we close, we would like you to share where we can find all this information. You can go. If you want. Yeah. You can get everything at your life.
44:02
livedwell.co. Let's say that slowly. Your life lived well.co. Your life lived well.co. All the information we've discussed today and more is there. All the information you get 100 pages free of the book. You can see what seminars are coming down the pike and you can do, you can see my own podcast. You can guest appearances, I mean, blog.
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You name it, there's tons of stuff there. Excellent. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Very informative, very transformational. And I hope that next time we will be able to have a chance to chat with you again. Well, I've been delighted and thank you so much, Roberta, for having me. Thank you for being here. Thanks, Kevin. Bye. Be well.